Thursday, November 29, 2012

The Truth is Scary...from people who actually know

Why $16 Trillion Only Hints at the US Debt


A decade and a half ago, both of us served on President Clinton's Bipartisan Commission on Entitlement and Tax Reform, the forerunner to President Obama's recent National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform. In 1994 we predicted that, unless something was done to control runaway entitlement spending, Medicare and Social Security would eventually go bankrupt or confront severe benefit cuts.

Eighteen years later, nothing has been done. Why? The usual reason is that entitlement reform is the third rail of American politics. That explanation presupposes voter demand for entitlements at any cost, even if it means bankrupting the nation.

A better explanation is that the full extent of the problem has remained hidden from policy makers and the public because of less than transparent government financial statements. How else could responsible officials claim that Medicare and Social Security have the resources they need to fulfill their commitments for years to come?

As Washington wrestles with the roughly $600 billion "fiscal cliff" and the 2013 budget, the far greater fiscal challenge of the U.S. government's unfunded pension and health-care liabilities remains offstage. The truly important figures would appear on the federal balance sheet—if the government prepared an accurate one.

But it hasn't. For years, the government has gotten by without having to produce the kind of financial statements that are required of most significant for-profit and nonprofit enterprises. The U.S. Treasury "balance sheet" does list liabilities such as Treasury debt issued to the public, federal employee pensions, and post-retirement health benefits. But it does not include the unfunded liabilities of Medicare, Social Security and other outsized and very real obligations.

As a result, fiscal policy discussions generally focus on current-year budget deficits, the accumulated national debt, and the relationships between these two items and gross domestic product. We most often hear about the alarming $15.96 trillion national debt (more than 100% of GDP), and the 2012 budget deficit of $1.1 trillion (6.97% of GDP). As dangerous as those numbers are, they do not begin to tell the story of the federal government's true liabilities.

The actual liabilities of the federal government—including Social Security, Medicare, and federal employees' future retirement benefits—already exceed $86.8 trillion, or 550% of GDP. For the year ending Dec. 31, 2011, the annual accrued expense of Medicare and Social Security was $7 trillion. Nothing like that figure is used in calculating the deficit. In reality, the reported budget deficit is less than one-fifth of the more accurate figure.

Why haven't Americans heard about the titanic $86.8 trillion liability from these programs? One reason: The actual figures do not appear in black and white on any balance sheet. But it is possible to discover them. Included in the annual Medicare Trustees' report are separate actuarial estimates of the unfunded liability for Medicare Part A (the hospital portion), Part B (medical insurance) and Part D (prescription drug coverage).

As of the most recent Trustees' report in April, the net present value of the unfunded liability of Medicare was $42.8 trillion. The comparable balance sheet liability for Social Security is $20.5 trillion.

Were American policy makers to have the benefit of transparent financial statements prepared the way public companies must report their pension liabilities, they would see clearly the magnitude of the future borrowing that these liabilities imply. Borrowing on this scale could eclipse the capacity of global capital markets—and bankrupt not only the programs themselves but the entire federal government. (Z: does anybody think entitlement seekers would care?  Do they THINK?)

These real-world impacts will be felt when currently unfunded liabilities need to be paid. In theory, the Medicare and Social Security trust funds have at least some money to pay a portion of the bills that are coming due. In actuality, the cupboard is bare: 100% of the payroll taxes for these programs were spent in the same year they were collected.

In exchange for the payroll taxes that aren't paid out in benefits to current retirees in any given year, the trust funds got nonmarketable Treasury debt. Now, as the baby boomers' promised benefits swamp the payroll-tax collections from today's workers, the government has to swap the trust funds' nonmarketable securities for marketable Treasury debt. The Treasury will then have to sell not only this debt, but far more, in order to pay the benefits as they come due.

When combined with funding the general cash deficits, these multitrillion-dollar Treasury operations will dominate the capital markets in the years ahead, particularly given China's de-emphasis of new investment in U.S. Treasurys in favor of increasing foreign direct investment, and Japan's and Europe's own sovereign-debt challenges.

When the accrued expenses of the government's entitlement programs are counted, it becomes clear that to collect enough tax revenue just to avoid going deeper into debt would require over $8 trillion in tax collections annually. That is the total of the average annual accrued liabilities of just the two largest entitlement programs, plus the annual cash deficit.

Nothing like that $8 trillion amount is available for the IRS to target. According to the most recent tax data, all individuals filing tax returns in America and earning more than $66,193 per year have a total adjusted gross income of $5.1 trillion. In 2006, when corporate taxable income peaked before the recession, all corporations in the U.S. had total income for tax purposes of $1.6 trillion. That comes to $6.7 trillion available to tax from these individuals and corporations under existing tax laws.
Z: Anybody think Romney wouldn't have at least tried to do something about this?  Is Obama?  Do tell.
Man, this is scary as hell.
 Z

65 comments:

beakerkin said...

The only spending Obama will cut is military. Oddly we need R & D more then ever.

Always On Watch said...

I don't know how things are where Z and various commenters to this blog live.

But here in the D.C. area, when I'm out and about during the day on a weekday, I see hordes of older folks. I do mean hordes!

The tsunami of aging Boomers has arrived. NEITHER POLITICAL PARTY TAKEN ANY STEPS TO DEAL WITH THIS TSUNAMI! At this point in time, some 80% of those in nursing homes are on Medicaid -- even though most entered the nursing homes with over $250,000 in assets, many nursing homes cost $15,000 a month, with more fees added for laundry, feeding by hand, clothing, etc. Do the math

And get this! The paratransit service here has some 400 vans for primarily the mentally disabled and the physically disabled (people in both of those categories likely receiving SSDI). The public paratransit system is overwhelmed so that now we see many private paratransit services as well; these private services are transporting the elderly, those who are severely disabled OR those who no longer have a driver's license. The alternative to these services? Confinement in a facility funded by the taxpayers because, unless one has $1 billion in assets, those folks will end up on Medicaid.

Add to the above the present taxpayers' burden for benefits for federal retirees.

Our tax base cannot sustain this tsunami -- even if the government seizes all the wealth of the 1%.

Cutting benefits for Medicare and Medicaid will be only a drop in the bucket as well.

The mind reels.

This is end game, folks.

Maybe the federal government can force us all to live like THIS, but such a step will only postpone the inevitable as the corruption at the top siphons off the bucks.

Another bit of ugly news on the front page of today's WaPo:
Mortgage-interest deduction could be on the table in ‘fiscal cliff’ debate
.

Dystopia (as in Animal Farm and 1984) is bearing down on us!

Constitutional Insurgent said...

Thanks for posting this Z...very informative.

Craig said...

Man, this is scary as hell. Z

Of course. Those numbers are intended to scare you and they are meaningless. First these are not 'unfunded liabilities'. Unlike a contractual pension, benefits and funding can be adjusted at any time.

Second, these figures are based on a 75 year to infinite horizon. Medicare and SS have dedicated funding. From 2001 to 2011, defense spending grew at 2.5 times the growth of 'entitlement' spending. If defense was funded through a dedicated fund, the unfunded liability would be 2.5 times higher.

already exceed $86.8 trillion, or 550% of GDP.

This is laughable. Comparing a supposed liability over an infinite horizon to today's GDP. Estimates of GDP over a 75 year window top 800T. If a similar calculation had been made in 1928, they couldn't have foreseen the depression, WWII, the post war boom (with tax rates as high as 91%, gasp), the increase of women into the workforce, etc. We carried a much higher debt to GDP ratio after WWII. We didn't cut our way out, we grew.

This is especially rich coming from Chris Cox. As head of the SEC, he ignored (intentionally?) what was happening on Wall Street that collapsed the economy. He couldn't see what was happening right under his nose and you're going to trust his vision 75 years into the future?

NEITHER POLITICAL PARTY TAKEN ANY STEPS TO DEAL WITH THIS TSUNAMI!

Obama slowed the growth of Medicare by 700B over 10 years by cutting over-payments in Medicare Advantage to private insurance and hospitals without cutting benefits one dime. He went after waste, fraud and abuse. I thought that was a good thing to Repubs? Then, he gets attacked for gutting Medicare. Shame on you.

Yes, the debt is too high and something needs to be done about the skyrocketing cost of health care. Just cutting benefits or turning it over to private ins. will cost us way more. SS is an easy fix, raise the cap.

Liberalmann said...

The article is more wingnut tin foil hat crap.

Besides, the last 5 Republican Presidents drove the deficit up. That's what they do. Dems always fix their economic messes and foreign policy disasters.

For those who think Obama drove it up don't consider that Bush KEPT OFF the budget; 2 wars, the tax cuts and Medicaid Part D. All unpaid for. When Obama took office he put them back in the budget and then the right screams that he increased the deficit. Amazing.

conservativesonfire said...

I would argue that there are two gigantic bubbles nearing their breaking point hanging over America today. One is fiscal and the other is monetary. Which ever breaks first will break the other and that will be the end of America. There will be no more need to worry that the Democrats want to turn America into another European style socialist state. It will be over!

On the subject of this post, only Paul Ryan came close to tring to tell the people the truth in a way they could understand it. The basic message needed was simple. "People, if we don¡t reform Social Security and Medicare, in fifteen to twenty years nobody will recive Social Security benefits or medicare assistance. No Body!" Then he would have to back his statements of with numbers in an easy to understand manner. It didn't happen and now we are where we are and the Obama admiinistration has no intentions to do or even try to do anything about it.

Fredd said...

Craig's easy fix for SS: raise the cap.

Sure, why not? Currently, the cap is around $97K in INCOME. Key word, that income thing.

Reality comes to bear with this easy fix: there are not enough income earners who make over $97K annually to make a dent in the ever growing SS expenditures, so this easy fix will just kick the can down the road a year or two.

Then we need another easy fix, Craig. Got one in your back pocket?

Moral of the story: there's no easy fix. The fix is hard: we have to sooner or later renege on unsustainable promises made to Americans. When the day comes (and it will eventually come) when there ain't no more money, then there ain't no more checks being issued to geezers.

Or, the checks will still be issued, but nobody will cash them. Or they will cash them, but it will be for pennies on the dollar.

Uber Moral of the story: when something can't go on, it won't.

Silverfiddle said...

The liberals here do not understand basic accounting, which explains their votes.

The federal government does not follow the FASB accounting rules that it makes businesses follow. If it did, things would indeed be much much worse.

The simple fact is that the government spends more than it takes in, over a trillion per year since Obama has been president, and the annual deficits do not include all the spending.

That cannot continue.

Z said...

Silverfiddle...exactly so. As I said, we need adults in charge again.

Impertinent said...

@lib

"Dems always fix their economic messes and foreign policy disasters."

Yup...Jimmah Carter sure fixed that Iran problem didn't he?

And Bubba surely did all he could to get Ossama didn't he? He spent more time playing with his cigars than on national security.

Putz

Anonymous said...

"Dems always fix their economic messes and foreign policy disasters."

THAT is HILARIOUS.

Thanks for catching that Imp. Your list could go on and on, of course.
Now they're talking about bringing Gitmo to a town nearest our families...great foreign policy success! :-)
They leave war zones and alert the enemy as to WHEN :-)
They can't bring themselves to call our enemies TERRORISTS :-)

Ya...GREAT foreign policy success...Libya sure is, huh?
Fast and Furious sue is, huh?!


The one good thing is Geithner's leaving; That's one good sign about fixing their economic disasters.


Z

Ducky's here said...

That comes to $6.7 trillion available to tax from these individuals and corporations under existing tax laws.

----
Change the law, maybe?

Ducky's here said...

Z: Anybody think Romney wouldn't have at least tried to do something about this? Is Obama? Do tell.

----
Right, Romney's going to push to have carried interest taxed among other reforms.

Joe Conservative said...

The Senate hasn't even TRIED to pass a budget in four years.

FIRE Harry Reid.

The man isn't even TRYING to do his job... and the "press" is blaming "Republicans"????

Joe Conservative said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Joe Conservative said...

There didn't HAVE to be a fiscal crisis.

The Senate COULD have TRIED to do it's job and pass a BUDGET following the REGULAR ORDER of Congress... but since they didn't, the Democrats can NOW run the country from the back of a smoke filled room (since the PRESS has abdicated their profession in favour of one-sided "critical" reporting).

Kid said...

1. I don't pretend to be an expert source of data. Who is? The US Government? Wild-Maniacal-Laughter.

So, here are just some thoughts. And some fairly accurate numbers based on what I've read over the years from trusted sources.

-When things went hell (mortage bubble bursted in Oct. 07, (5 years ago), Hanky Paulson and Gentle Ben Bernanke printed up 30 TRILLION $ to GIVE to the banks foreign and domestic, so They could have a Do-Over. They did this by exchanging perfectly good and redeemable (at higher prices) US Treasuries for the banks worthless mortgage monopoly paper (wall street bets) that wasn't tied to physical property and will therefore Never be worth more than 0.
30 Trillion. Without batting an eye.

And we're all geeked up about 16 Tril?

-The government admits freely that 50% of Medicare is fraud. IBM offered obama -for free- hardware and software that could eliminate all the fraud and obama said "Nyet".

- LBJ stole the social security $ in the early 60's and started Welfare with it, stating (A quote) This will have those N* voting democrat for the next 50 years. He was right. PS- African Americans, those who wanted it have already gotten their Refermatons!

- SS is NOT an entitlement program for most people. They PrePaid for it. personally, I've been paying into it since I was 15. Thought I agree reforms are needed. Another subject.

- You could close every federal department, fire everyone from the president on down and we'd still be running at a deficit.

- You could take ALL the wealth from 'the rich' Today- and you would only be able to run 'the government' for 96 days. What then.

Bottom line. The National Debt is one of those fuzzy shiny balls the buttheads in DC want people to focus on. Therefore, imo, it is one of the least important metrics known to mankind.

Kid said...

IMP, Yes, libshit is an alien from "dontknowassfromblackhole-astan".

No one could possibly be that stupid. she/he's probably some homosexual aide working for either bob beckel, or nana pelosi, or debbie blabbemough-putz.

I commend you for your tireless efforts to keep the lbgt entity honest.

Impertinent said...

@Kid

"to keep the lbgt entity honest."

Kid...it can't be me alone..I think his "mom" gives it a reach around as soon as it types a few words...gotta love mom for releasing that bilge....and it keeps the mud off the walls in the cellar.

Impertinent said...

@Kid

Of course I'd love to show him how much we 'love" it/she/him....think gerbils in the room.

Kid said...

IMP, A mom reach around for a Gerbil. Man, I shoulda known :)

Impertinent said...

@Kid

"Man, I shoulda known :)..."

WTF Kid....you can't get with the new depravity? Come on man..get hip....get a boyfriend...get "progressive" and forget women.

Liberalmann said...

I'm a disgusting little man

Marine4ever said...

The talk on the street is, "Guess who may run for a third term?!"

BTW, Liberalmann, thanks for confirming what I've always suspected.

beamish said...

Remember, kids. Anyone that wants to stop having this problem is a "granny killer."

beamish said...

Remember, kids. Anyone that wants to stop having this problem is a "granny killer."

Always On Watch said...

Marine4ever,
The talk on the street is, "Guess who may run for a third term?!"

I don't doubt that BHO will try exactly that: "We have more work to do!"

Craig said...

there are not enough income earners who make over $97K annually to make a dent in the ever growing SS expenditures

Fredd, the cap is $106K but why quibble. It's not about the number of people, it's about the number of dollars. More dollars concentrated in fewer hands (the top 1% are winning the class war)doesn't change the formula. SS is $2T in the black right now. If nothing is done, beneficiaries will still get 85% of promised SS beginning in 2033 until we're over the baby boom hump.

Yes, filling a 15% gap, 20 years out, is an easy fix.

Darth Bacon said...

Marine4ever, I told my wife the exact same thing, Leiberman is a Fink, a double crossing jerk who talks out of both sides of his mouth. Just like Obama
Only not quite as bad.

Anonymous said...

From Z at work:

no computer at home...expert coming Saturday morning.

Sadly, Obama's "new plan" is the same old plan that was not accepted before. Highly insulting...and the Reps are blamed.

Think Americans will ever wake up to spending and realize that if you're overdrawn at the bank, nobody gives you MORE and that simplication is what many American see not to get.

scary.
Another amazing thing: Picture this: Bush is president and there are people who still don't have water or heat in NY and nJ.

What do YOU think every TV talk show and media outlet would be talking about? Have you heard ANYTHING about Obama except how he was SO NICE TO CHRISTY?

I didn't think so. z

Kid said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kid said...

M4E, I've heard michele could run, and you know they'd vote her in too for 8 more years, so obama has 16.

And does it even matter? We are assured of a liberal supreme court. We could bring Ronald Reagan back and it wouldn't make any difference. We're screwed for the duration now.

Have fun, protect your assets best you can.....

Always On Watch said...

Z,
It is now the inmates who are running the asylum.

The best that the GOP can do is laugh and walk away. To oppose Obama is racism, dontchaknow?

JonBerg said...

Kid said.....

"M4E, I've heard michele could run, and you know they'd vote her in too for 8 more years, so obama has 16."

OMG, as if my day wasn't going bad enough, already!

FreeThinke said...

My plan is simple. I'm almost 72. I will stay in my house, and when things get bad enough outside my gates, I will simply go to bed, turn on the TV, and wait.

It might take a week or ten days of extreme discomfort, but at the end of that time I will be done wit the troubles of the world once and for all.

MUCH better, when you're my age, to exit a bit early rather than suffer the indignities imposed by the kind of statist tyranny soon to grab us.

I don't care if my body is mummified in red tape -- after I'm gone.

The trick is not to let it happen BEFORE The Great Event.

The worst part of it for me will be the necessity of having my pet friends put to sleep, so they won't have to cope with being orphaned.

Give me LIBERTY -- or give me DEATH.

I take an odd sort of comfort in knowing that I shall not be missed. My demise will affect no one adversely.

I hope to be able to give most of my money and property away before I go, so it won't be taxed into oblivion.

My biggest worry is that some damned busybody will take it upon himself or herself to INTERFERE before I check out.

This is not suicide. It is simply LETTING myself die.

And no I am not kidding.

I lost all hope for a decent future the evening of November 6.

~ FreeThinke

JonBerg said...

FT,

As someone similarly situated I understand your "plan", completely!

Anonymous said...

Kid...what a HORRID thoguht. Yes, they could definitely run Michelle...and she'd win. People are THAT dumb, sadly.

FT....you sound like an old eskimo put on a canoe and left to go into the sunset.....things are going to get so bad, and so unrecognizable as America, that I can't blame you.

I just don't understand how many people could really be for redistribution. and then blame conservatives for not wanting that when it was mostly Conservative Christian churches which were the charity of the past and it was conservatives who got the civil rights bill passed and it's conservatives who want to keep people hiring and spending and keeping things rolling.

Obama just wants BIG GOV'T and he's threatening middle class taxes now, too...

get ready, dupes who voted for him; you should have examined him closer. Most of you don't even KNOW the horrors in the Obama Care bill which have zilch to do with health care.

dumb dumb dumb.
(you can quote me) :-)

Z

Leticia said...

"Scary as hell" is putting it mildly. But what else can we say. Taxes are going to butcher middle and lower class families and bankrupt small businesses.

The GOP HAD BETTER do something right. Because they are beginning to tick me off as well.

beakerkin said...

Speaking of scary I did my own satiric take on what Mr Beamish would
be like at 88. As the last living Patriotic American things will not be easy.

Bring your sense of humor and relax and enjoy good satire.

Kid said...

Actually I missed something in my $ comment above. Ben and Hank printed 30 trillion for the banks in 08, then the WE programs (quantative easing) which amounts to buying forever worthless mortgage paper form the banks, another 13 trillion has been printed up for them and the current QE program is unlimited at the current rate of 40 billion/mo.

This (QE3) just started, but the Fed has already printed up 43 trillion for the banks. For what..so they could have a do-over.

I'm sorry but I'm not going to get excited over 16 trillion or 20 trillion. Print it up and pay it off, it would be more righteous that giving the A* at the banks 43 trillion for Nothing. The banks should have been left to crash and burn.

At least the 16 trillion actually Mostly went to help America. Buying 7 trillion worth of nuclear subs for example, ending the cold war, etc.

Ducky's here said...

Listening to these people talk about the national economy is like listening to a burglar tell you that you should really polish the silver more often.

--- Charles Pierce

Marine4ever said...

And all the while, China is ramping up her navy. I wonder WHY?

For some reason, this brings to mind a 'conversation' about horses and bayonets.

Impertinent said...

@M4E

"And all the while, China is ramping up her navy. I wonder WHY?"

I may be a bit dense on this topic...but why does it trouble you?

Impertinent said...

@Kid

You've got me shaking my head. WTF?

beakerkin said...

Duncy

Funny but the media goes into over drive about military costs. Funny but Obummer just put more people then ever before on student loans with no attempt to constrain costs or guide people into fields they can repay the loans.

As commies are too ignorant to grasp thought beyond slogans. I will reduce this to your IQ level in pop up book fashion

No dollars for sociologogy majors
No cuts for Marines who do actual work and develop marketable skills.

Repeat in chant form. Good useful idiot. Now light a joint and feign that student loans for aspiring pornographers is more important than National security.

Ducky's here said...

Beak, usually you have your knickers in a knot about anthropologists.

What gives?

So strike sociology from the curriculum and enlist more marines and everything will be just ducky?

Kid said...

IMP, What are you shaking your head over? My cavalier attitude with Natl Debt?

In simple minded terms(hey that's me), I think this national debt and this other stuff is a scare tactic by the politicians for us to focus on while they 'talk us into' accepting their theft of the social security money, their upcoming massive defunding of the healthcare system while 'we die waiting to see doctors that don't exist anymore'. etc.

We're being played with all this nonsense.

I'm sure you know, SS started out as "This is a pension program FOR YOU. The money will be in an account in YOUR NAME with guaranteed returns on investment, bla bla bla" and now it has morphed into an "Entitlement program." Free money for retirees from the government. BS. I've been paying to SS since I'm 15. The gov isn't 'giving me' anything.

And I resent this adolescent scare tactic BS about 16 tril being the elephant in the room. It's not. It's the guppy in the fish tank, when you compare it to 43 trillion printed up for 'the banks' in the last 5 years. That's a lot of money. I've read whre the total wealth of the Earth is like 700 trillion. 43 is a big number and how many people you could stop on the street would have the slightest clue about that?
1 in maybe 5 million?

I dunno man, what do you think generally speaking?

Impertinent said...

@Kid


Kid..I'm so fooking depressed now with this shit ass economy and a fradulent "government" of plutocrtats and vipers...frauds...liars and deadbeats...that I really think we need a new, reformed constituted country.

I've read that there are over 20 states that are wanting secession.

Tomorrow....I'll be bright and ready...right now...I've downed 4 Stolis...and I don't give a shit....I'm over America....I've had enough...

Anyone here who thinks that the republican party is representative of us is seriously deluded and retarded.

If we don't rid ourselves of the country club assholes and frauds....and form a new party....we're doomed.

America? Sucks....after this "election"...and the elevation of this bastard to Lord and Savior...I'm ready to be a fooking "preppper" and kiss America adios...yes..adios...the new language of a defeated and ignorant, complacent republic.

Kid said...

IMP.... wouldn't change a word.

A new constituted country. Yes, but it won't happen until "our new majority" feels the pain, puts in the effort and finds out what the fook actually happened to them.

Not in my lifetime Sir.

That's why I said I'm ready to go if and when. Britain (gorden brown) raised taxes to 50% on 'the rich'. 10,000 of the 16,000 millionaires Left. That's how to combat the terminal disease of socialism as far as I know. I'm not a millionaire, but I'm not a host for parasites either and won't be.

Hey, here's an idea. Worse comes to worse, the wife and I are going to take out a huge government loan for a business. Pizza place, or lingerie shop? and use the money as retirement funding more or less. :)

Kid said...

PS - I've been drinking Heineken and Stella lately.

Kid said...

IMP. I'd love to be sitting around in New Zealand in about 5 years, watching American libtards, with no money, sitting around wondering where all the money went, crying like the babies they are.

Union people, with unfunded pensions, unable to continue their 35 year vacations on the backs of the productive class. HQAHAQHaaa

THAT would be poetry.

JonBerg said...

OK, the Democrats are full of themselves because they think that they won. The fact is, they didn't, we inclusive of them, all lost. All that has happened is that we have suffered an immense set-back in correcting or at least mitigating the problems of living beyond our means, both in terms of Government as well as domestically. I'm not saying that the Republicans would have saved us but I promise that the DemocRATS will do nothing but exacerbate the situation. B.O. is on it already!

Impertinent said...

@Kid

We used to have a traditional way of dealing with this.

I'm relying on the second amendment right now.

Kid said...

IMP, A couple weekends ago

Nice. I did 40 and 4.5 barrel. Also looking at Marlin 336 30-30 between 3 and 400. as the reviewer said that I read - It's a plus that you can reload while firing and if you need more than 6 from a 30-30, you should move out of Afghanistan anyway.

Wife anmd I are going for CCW soon.

JonBerg said...

Kid,

Sounds like good stuff! How's the Ammo situation in Ohio? It's become a little scarce and pricey around here.

Kid said...

Jonberg, the Springfield is nice. The safety's are on the back of the grip and the trigger (see website), so if you are holding the weapon in a manner that you intend to shoot it, the safeties are off. Dropping it or just pulling the trigger would not result in it firing. Nice.

The weight is perfect for me, balance good, sights are great, simple disassembly and cleaning. Really a nice gun. Paid 590 and it came in a kit with holster, speed reloader, 2 16 round mags, and some misc.
I bought 100 round cartons of 40 S&W at Walmart for 35 bucks Copper jacket. I think I'll start reloading also.
Prefer hollow point for the house. Don't want a bullet to find it's way though multiple houses if and when.

Also bought a S&W 22 LR semi for 250. That will make for some fun and inexpensive plinking at the range.

Don't know where you're at but hear Virginia is a great place to buy guns these days.

JonBerg said...

Kid,

Hey pal, we can't have too many! I live in Denver, but am originally from the Columbus, OH area. I like your comments. Keep up the good work!

Ducky's here said...

@kid --- PS - I've been drinking Heineken and Stella lately.

------
Piss.

If you didn't spend so much on ammo you could afford a decent beer.

Always On Watch said...

FT has a workable plan.

You know what? I think that a lot of people will opt for that plan or one quite similar. There does come a point that one cannot go on.

Always On Watch said...

From The Hill:

Liberal Democrats: Higher rates for wealthy 'just the beginning'

Get ready for redistribution of wealth -- not only redistribution of income.

Marine4ever said...

@ Impertinent -- Why does China ramping up her navy trouble me? Well...

...probably because we're throwing all these figures around and talking about something that'll take 30 year (MINIMUM) to claw our way out of -- if we're lucky and don't starve ourselves to death first. AND, that's IF we can EVER get the Communists out of DC. AND, lest we forget, we STILL owe our souls to the Company Store -- namely, China. Thank you, Obimbo, for throwing us under the bus on that one.

...probably because China is on the fast track to becoming an economic superpower, thanks to the USSA's (United Socialist States of Amerika and a few other countries) superb borrowing expertise. Unlike Russia, China has the dinero to fund her military and she's doing it with new naval vessels and fighter planes. While we're cutting our military budgets and mothballing our naval fleets (thanks, Obimbo, for throwing us under the bus... AGAIN) China is FAST building herself into a global military superpower. Think of it as navy + oceans = global.

...probably because, while The Chosen One has been on a CONTINUOUS worldwide, whirlwind apology tour when not on the global golf courses, China has been right behind the Idiot in Chief of the USSA picking up the pieces -- especially in Asia, Africa and Latin America.

...probably because when China has it locked up on the economic and military scene, the United States -- oops, excuse me... the United SOCIALIST States -- will become the bastard at the family reunion.

So, with all that said, I'm going with FreeThinke and his plan. Except I'm not gonna turn on the TV. I just want to enjoy what little time I have left.

beakerkin said...

Ducky

College costs are prohibitive and burdening people with loans they can never pay so deranged political hacks can teach worthless classes makes no sense.

My daughter in law would return to nursing studies if tuition wasn't prohibitive. Something is wrong when tuition costs are through the roof and banks and government issue loans without rational looks at return on investment.

Kid said...

Jonberg, Hey man, Thank you!

Yes, I eat with some retired people who have literally an armory. When they moved into their current house about 10 years ago, they had to hire people to move the ammo.

Well, born in Pittsburgh, later moved to Phoenix area, then back to Cincinnati for a job when the company went bust.

I'd much rather be in Arizona or there-abouts.

Anonymous said...

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Anonymous said...

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