5/29 UPDATE: LESBIANS in Germany are upset that they've been left out and it's now been decided that they will share a presentation of kissing scenes at regular intervals with that of the gay men. You can't make this stuff up, and I'm not. I guess they felt the little girl students who will be watching the peep show had to see them, too.
There is a new monument to homosexual holocaust victims in Berlin, Germany.
I was just wondering...Do you think there will be a monument to Catholic holocaust victims, or gypsy holocaust victims, or the enormous amount of German resistance fighters* who fell to the holocaust, too? (oh, that's right, we don't teach about the German resistance here...guess what, it was at least as big as the French resistance but there was never a CASABLANCA film celebrating it.)
"A video screen set into the monument shows a one-and-a-half minute film loop of two men kissing." One-and-a-half minutes? Oh, good..that'll be excellent for the school children who come and learn about the monument, huh?
How do you feel about the monument? You think this is necessary? I'm really curious. Look at it more from a point of view of singling out a particular group other than the Jews, obviously, who died in the camps. Should there be a gay holocaust memorial? Seriously, what do you think?
*I attended a book party for a book about the German resistance about 6 years ago in Berlin. The book is hundreds of pages long and has individual stories on each page. The author, who worked for Mr. Z in Paris, told me the stories he found were only the tip of the iceberg. This Wikipedia article underplays the numbers but is fairly honest about the situation. Imagine the guts it took for even the amount of resistance the Wikipedia piece talks about, in NAZI Germany, with the Gestapo everywhere?
52 comments:
Yet another example of the squeaky wheel getting the grease....oh...poor choice of words.
I'm LOL ...hilarious!!
You have an excellent point...I think you're right.
What Catholics or gypsies or other victim groups are standing up for themselves? answer: none
from what I've read Hitler put the feminine type homosexuals in concentration camps but kept the others (some in high places in the government).
UPDATE: 2 Gypsy groups DO have monuments in the work.
These mostly Romanian gypsies are giving Italy a hell of a time and Berlasconi's trying to get them out of Italy.
I think redheaded teens should have a monument,too. ??
Z for what it's worth I was watching a History Channel show about the early Nazi movement and they said Hitler TARGETED one early "opponent" for assassination PRECISELY because of the rampant rumors that they were homosexual lovers during his "painting" days. I haven't a clue how valid the claim is. Now if you watch his salute carefully you'll notice the weak wrist...DON'T tell me you haven't seen it! :-)
Morgan
I hadn't heard that Hitler was gay, so I wasn't insinuating it but the blackmail part I had heard of
I'm with Z & Pinky, it's the in your face and I'm going to rub your nose in my perversion attitude that irritates me.
Do I hate homosexuals? No, worked with them in various places, and I was usually the one they came to when they had problems.
It's all in the attitude.
And I don't think that there were 6 million homosexuals killed...
tmw
TMW you have the same "objection" that the rest of us have. The behavior in this case is revolting. They have a LEGITIMATE gripe and they ruin it by having a long make-out scene between two MUSTACHES! OY!
Morgan
Tombstones in the Starlight
By Dorothy Parker
I. The Minor Poet
His little trills and chirpings
............ were his best.
No music like the nightingale's
............ was born
Within his throat; but he, too,
............laid his breast
Upon a thorn.
II. The Pretty Lady
She hated bleak
............ and wintry things alone.
All that was warm and quick,
............ she loved too well-
A light, a flame, a heart
............ against her own;
It is forever bitter cold, in Hell.
III. The Very Rich Man
He'd have the best,
............ and that was none too good;
No barrier could hold,
............ before his terms.
He lies below, correct
............ in cypress wood,
And entertains
............ the most exclusive worms.
IV. The Fisherwoman
The man she had was kind and clean
And well enough for every day,
But, oh, dear friends, you should have seen
The one that got away!
V. The Crusader
Arrived in Heaven,
............ when his sands were run,
He seized a quill,
............ and sat him down to tell
The local press
............ that something should be done
About that noisy nuisance, Gabriel.
VI. The Actress
Her name, cut clear upon
............ this marble cross,
Shines, as it shone
............ when she was still on earth;
While tenderly the mild,
............ agreeable moss
Obscures the figures
............ of her date of birth.
ADDENDUM:
The Homosexual
He kept his counsel
............ quietly, and thrived
In secret revery,
............ while platitudes
And mockery
............ from prejudice derived
Surrounded him
............ with violent attitudes.
With faith sincere
............ he never gave up hope,
Pursued his life
............ with diligence and zeal.
And yet, he wound up
............ swinging from a rope.
His death made
............ pseudo righteousness seem real.
Submitted by FT
OPINION by FreeThinke:
Whatever that gray "structure" is it's one of the ugliest, clumsiest excuses for a building I've ever seen.
I can't believe anyone ...... let alone homosexuals ...... lobbied to get a thing like that erected. Usually, gays have much better taste. That thing would make a poor excuse for a public toilet, frankly.
Surely a small Greek Temple would have served the purpose far better, especially with it's reference to the Hellenistic Age when, apparently, everybody who was anybody practiced homosexuality openly and proudly, albeit with some limitations. (further information available on request.)
As I understand it. something like TWENTY-MILLION perished in those death camps.
It might have been more tasteful, more sensible and less stupidly divisive to have put up ONE large, truly beautiful Memorial cum Museum commemorating ALL the death camp victims, while specifying who they were, where they came from and why they were persecuted.
"In so much as Ye have done it unto the least of these, my brethren, Ye have done it unto me."
EVERYBODY COUNTS in God's eyes, even people you don't really want to have around.
Where did you get that from, FT?
I certainly didn't exhibit it, and I think we were discussing taste, that stump and a video? Tacky!
tmw
Exactly TMW. Variety IS the spice of life, as long as the gory details don't follow.
Morgan
FT,..Who's swinging anybody from a rope here? MY GOSH!!
Do you think a 1 1/2 minute kiss by two men is dignified in our society where children will be studying a monument? Funny, I've NEVER seen a video of the holocaust showing two straight Jews kissing for 1 1/2minutes, have you?
While I wouldn't dream of erecting a Hellenic Temple, I'd certainly have chosen something more attractive than the crooked aluminum ice cube that cost well over one million dollars. Imagine if they'd had a monument to gays killed in the holocaust and it was two dignified young men in suits?
MUCH better.
And, as for not wanting people around?
I'm sorry you've extrapolated anything like that from anything said here.
The monument's video is in bad taste. period. And the thing's pig ugly, too.
Great, Morgan, you say in 10 words what I struggled with and said in 100!!
It IS a shame they didn't construct a monument in honour of all those exterminated.
And I find it just as distasteful to watch to 2 heteros being overtly sexual in public as i do gays. keep that private please.
incognito; there are monuments all OVER Germany to the Jews who were exterminated. COUNTLESS ones.
Do you mean there should have been a monument to the lesser known groups of victims?
i have heard the stories of the german resistance. in fact, a good friend (and one of my employees)'s mother's older brothers (boy could that be any more convoluted?!?!?) were a part of it. dagmar is salt of the earth and to this day has such great pride for what her brothers died trying to do. she still has the diary of one of them and someday i hope to be able to read it in full.
she's disgusted by the momument as well, believing it to be inappropriate.
great find, z.
heidianne jackson
http://biggirlpants.typepad.com
Yes Z, I meant monuments to the thousands of others who were murdered as well.
in your face ANYTHING is no different than in your face ANYTHING ELSE.
whoever looks the strangest, sounds the loudest, has the most painfully apparent affliction, etc., will always get the most attention.
plain and simple - everybody's looking for someone to raise up or tend to or, quite frankly, make a monument to.
it's the "hey, everybody look at me!" syndrome. whoever's neediest will always get what they're looking for.
notice how the jew rose above their "holocaust" dilemma. mostly silently. it was with great courage and pride they've come to accomplish what they have. not because they were loud and brazen.
let the sphincter spelunkers (beamish' phrase) have their parades and monuments - it's not like they'll take them into eternity. really.
the more attention we give them, the more they revel in their "affliction".
In the politically correct name of diversity, we are in a state of divisveness.
Why pigeonhole human beings who all shared in this brutal, barbaric, dehumanizing crime. Do we think at the time this was happening, there was great concern among the victims, as to who they were or where they came from, or what they did?
I imagine they clung to each other as best as they could, prayed with, and for each other, and cried when some were marched away never to return.
I wonder, if people today, even have the right to represent those victims, in hindsight, as it were.
I think that should be left to survivors of that human tragedy.
But, to divide them into small groups somehow trivializes the magnitude of that horror.
Pris
"Gay Holocaust" Revisionism
"Gay Holocaust" revisionists assert that Hitler's ascension to the Chancellorship marked the beginning of a homosexual Holocaust in Germany. For example, in The Pink Triangle, Richard Plant writes, "After years of frustration...Hitler's storm troopers now had the opportunity to smash their enemies: the lame, the mute, the feebleminded, the epileptic, the homosexual, the Jew, the Gypsy, the communist. These were the scapegoats singled out for persecution. These were the 'contragenics' who were to be ruthlessly eliminated to ensure the purity of the 'Aryan race.'" (Plant:51). Rector, another revisionist, makes a similar statement: "Hitler's homophobia did not surface until 1933-1934, when gays had come to affect adversely his New Order designs-out of which grew the simple solution of murdering them en masse" (Rector:24). The fact is that homosexuals were never murdered "en masse" or "ruthlessly eliminated" by the Nazis. Yet many homosexuals were persecuted and some did die in Nazi work camps. What is the truth about Nazi persecution of homosexuals? There are several incidents in Nazi history which are most often cited as evidence of a "gay Holocaust." This list includes a series of increasingly harsh public pronouncements and policies against homosexuality by Hitler and Himmler, the sacking of the Sex Research Institute of Berlin, "the Roehm Purge" (also known as "the Night of the Long Knives"), and the internment of homosexuals in work camps.
The law against homosexual conduct had existed in Germany for many years prior to the Nazi regime as Paragraph 175 of the Reich Criminal Code, to wit: "A male who indulges in criminally indecent activity with another male, or who allows himself to participate in such activity, will be punished with imprisonment" (Burleigh and Wipperman:188). When Hitler came to power he used this law as a means of tracking down and punishing those homosexuals who, in the words of one victim, "had defended the Weimar Republic, and who had tried to forestall the Nazi threat" (ibid.:183). Later he expanded the law and used it as a convenient tool to detain other enemies of the regime.
In February of 1933, Hitler banned pornography, ho-mosexual bars and bath-houses, and groups which promoted "gay rights" (Plant:50). Ostensibly, this decree was a blanket condemnation of all homosexual activity in Germany, but in practice it served as just another means to find and destroy anti-Nazi groups and individuals. "Hitler," admit Oosterhuis and Kennedy, "employed the charge of homosexuality primarily as a means to eliminate political opponents, both inside his party and out" (Oosterhuis and Kennedy: 248).
The masculine homosexuals in the Nazi leadership selectively enforced this policy only against their enemies and not against all homosexuals. Even Rector lends credence to this perspective, citing the fact that the decree "was not enforced in all cases" (Rector:66). Another indication is that the pro-Nazi Society for Human Rights (SHR) continued to participate in German society for several years after the decree. In The Racial State, Michael Burleigh and Wolfgang Wippermann remind us that Roehm was a leading member of the SHR; and we know from Anthony Read and David Fisher that the SHR was still active in Germany as late as 1940 (Read and Fisher:245). Furthermore, Oosterhuis and Kennedy write that "although he was well known as a gay-activist, [Adolf] Brand was not arrested by the Nazis" (Oosterhuis and Kennedy:7). Some of Brand's files were confiscated by the Nazis in their attempt to gather all potentially self-incriminating evidence.
In 1935, Paragraph 175 was amended with Paragraph 175a which criminalized any type of behavior that could be construed as indicating a homosexual inclination or desire (Burleigh and Wipperman: 190). (Interestingly, the new criminal code addressing homosexuality deleted the word "unnatural" from the definition-Reisman, 1994:3.) This new law provided the Nazis with an especially potent legal weapon against their enemies. It will never be known how many non-homosexuals were charged under this law, but it is indisputable that the Nazis used false accusations of homosexuality to justify the detainment and imprisonment of many of their opponents. "The law was so loosely formulated," writes Steakley, "that it could be, and was, applied against heterosexuals that the Nazis wanted to eliminate...the law was also used repeatedly against Catholic clergymen" (Steakley:111). Kogon writes that "The Gestapo readily had recourse to the charge of homosexuality if it was unable to find any pretext for proceeding against Catholic priests or irksome critics" (Kogon:44).
The charge of homosexuality was convenient for the Nazis to use against their political enemies because it was so difficult to defend against and so easy to justify to the populace. Since long before the Nazis, homosexuals had generally lived clandestine lives, so it was not unusual for revelations of their conduct to come as a surprise to their communities when it became a police matter. This is not to say that actual homosexuals were not prosecuted under the law. Many were. But the law was used selectively against the "Femmes." And even when they were threatened, many effeminate homosexuals, especially those in the arts community, were given protection by certain Nazi leaders (Oosterhuis and Kennedy:248). Plant writes:
The most famous example is that of the actor Gustaf Grundgens...Despite the fact that his homosexual affairs were as notorious as those of Roehm's, Goering appointed him director of the State Theater...[And] On October 29, 1937 ...Himmler advised that actors and other artists could be arrested for offenses against paragraph 175 only with his personal consent, unless the police caught them in flagrante (Plant:116).
There is one additional reason why the Nazis arrested homosexuals and raided even the homes of their supporters. They were looking for incriminating evidence against themselves (the Nazi leaders). Blackmail of homosexuals by estranged partners and prostitutes was a simple fact of life in Germany. "[H]omosexuals were particularly vulnerable to blackmailers, known as Chanteure on the homosexual scene," write Burleigh and Wippermann. "Blackmail, and the threat of public exposure, resulted in frequent suicides or suicide attempts" (Burleigh and Wipperman:184). The Nazi leaders were quite familiar with this phenomenon. Igra reports that Heinrich Hoffman, the official Nazi photographer, gained his position by using information about Hitler's perverse abuse of his (Hoffman's) daughter to blackmail the future Fuehrer (Igra:74). Heiden relates another story in which Hitler bought an entire collection of rare political writings to regain possession of a letter to his niece in which he openly revealed his "masochistic- coprophil inclinations" (Heiden:385). Once he was in power he had other ways to solve these kinds of problems.
Elbro,
Dude, Hitler was gay as @#$%.
There are even archived letters from Himmler complaining to friends that there was an sense of impropriety about homosexuals being the only set of people being promoted to officer positions in the SS.
Not the gay-as-!@#$ Brown Shirts in the SA that the SS wiped out.
The post-"Night of the Long Knives" SS.
Hitler's bodyguards were gay.
Hitler himself formed the Nazi Party with and from male prostitutes that he lived in a flophouse with.
There's not much evidence that a man who SURROUNDED himself with homosexuals and placed them in the highest positions of his government and military was not in fact himself gay.
For me, the mustache is a dead giveaway.
Hitler was as gay as a show tunes collection.
Beamish, who knows if it's a string of coincidences of his having had gay friends, etc., or truth? There isn't much to be found on the subject of Hitler being gay and we can't think every article we find supporting it is necessarily right. I figure he kept these people around to blackmail them if he needed them to jump through hoops or something..?
My gut feeling is if he were gay for sure, people would have talked about it at least after he did himself in with Eva Braun.
BUT...we'll NEVER KNOW! There isn't any solid evidence he wasn't! or was.
"Should there be a gay holocaust memorial?" No,but. That thing in the photo for some strange reason reminds me of an outhouse. If they have to have a monument in the outhouse would be the perfect place for it.
God Bless America, God Save The Republic.
David, I'm sure an outhouse would be an improper memorial for anyone.....but you're right..it looks like an outhouse and it cost more than one million Euros!
the mustache is a dead giveaway.
The mustache doesn't means squat, beamish. You, of ALL people, should understand that. After all, YOU wear the mask, just as Adolph did.
Thank you for the lengthy article filled with specific references, Mr. (or Mrs.) Totally Anonymous. It is good to see a well-researched post made up of something besides conjecture born of prejudice and animosity.
Despite the numerous authors cited, I do wish you'd have given the URL for your source. (I'm assuming you didn't compile all of this yourself. If you did, please take a bow. ;-)
I just have to add that I find it both distressing and comical that people seem to find a little film of two men kissing more disturbing, more offensive and more worthy of condemnation than the brutality and wholesale slaughter that gave rise to the need for a memorial to Nazi victims in the first place.
The "sex threads" developed here of late have been extraordinarily revealing. We may not be comforted and cheered by what we find, but at least we are better informed.
Christ Jesus said: "Ye shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall make you free."
Yes, indeed! He didn't say the Truth would make you "happy," he said it would make you "free," and so it does.
Just as birds must molt and snakes shed their skins periodically in order to grow, so must we be stripped of our illusions every now and then in order to be better able to fulfill our potential as human beings.
FreeThinke
Why aren't 'normal' gay people pissed about this? Like all there is to define their lives and honor their dead is a 90 second loop of two dudes shoving their tongues down each other's throats?
Ugh.
I’m not quite sure I understand the issue here. If we seek to memorialize victims of genocide, what difference does sexual preference, religious or political affiliation, color of skin, or gender really make? Not long ago in an essay called “The Only Constant,” I referenced words written by George MacDonald Fraser comparing the previous generation with the present. We understand that nefarious regimes victimized entire populations; we should memorialize the loss of these lives, remember their suffering, and guard against any reemergence of such evil. But, it is also true that contemporary society has come to adore the state of victimization. We revel in it; the press encourages it; we pursue self-pity with abandon.
In creating a gay and lesbian holocaust memorial, do we pretend that homosexuals are any more (or less) precious to our memory than millions more of slaughtered innocents? Finally, let me say it is absurd to create such a memorial when gay and lesbian organizations use the same Hitlerian strategies to beat mainstream society into an acceptance of their odd behavior. Of course, this is just my view.
Once again, this is an excellent post! It makes me think, “Golly Geez . . . why didn’t I think of that?”
good grief Z...now I've heard it all truly!
FT, the link is already in a comment.
FT, you're not reading the comments and you're jumping to strange and unwarranted conclusions if you think anybody here has said that two men kissing is more "distressing" than the motivation for the holocaust. Your comment that this is 'comical' is even more disturbing.
Also, please, just give opinions on the subjects and not criticisms of others for not agreeing with you. I don't want to delete anyone here.
Thank you.
Good grief, Z!
Edge's Conservative Movies
When a sin category is equated with an ethnic or religious group, I think we can be sure we are in the very last days of planet earth. The nation that does such a thing is certainly inviting God's wrath. Cheers.
Thank you for you remarks, Mustang. I have only one bone to pick with you. The tactics used by Gay activists are not "Hitlerian," rather they are MARXIAN and part of the Cultural Marxist Agenda dreamed by Italian communist Antonio Gramsci, whose ideas were co-opted, amplified and brilliantly implemented by George Lukacs, Theo Adorno and Herbert Marcuse and other members of the infamous Frankfurt School. Also Bela Kuhn of Hungary.
The aim of these evil geniuses was to infiltrate, subvert then destroy the White, Christian, Protestant, Male-dominated Establishment that supported and maintained the flowering of Western Civilization.
The main thrust of the MARXISTS was (is) to fan the naturally-occurring flames of anger, resentment, envy, spite and malice in ways that would encourage society to break up into warring splinter factions–––which is exactly what has happened.
And so we have seen the emergence of what-might-be-called COMPETITIVE SUFFERING ...... i.e. YOU-May-Be-A-Victim-but-MY-Suffering and Deprivation-Is-Greater-And-More-Significant-Than-Yours.
The tactics put in motion by the Frankfurt School have been so enormously successful that now even CHRISTIANS, CONSERVATIVES, LIBERTARIANS and SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS EXECUTIVES are busily proclaiming THEIR victimhood in the melée that has followed the intellectual aggression of the Marxists.
One of Hitler's aims was to combat and destroy COMMUNISM, particularly as it was exemplified in Soviet Russia–––surely one of the greatest ironies of all time.
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root."
~ Thoreau (1817-1862)
All of the various Marxist-generated "Liberation" movements are nothing more than twigs on the Evil Tree of Coercive Collectivist Thought that was planted in our midst a hundred years ago.
So, enjoy the little bar room brawl over the impudent tastelessness of seeing two men kiss passionately in public, but all you will have created is the urgent need to sweep up a lot of broken glass and debris, replace or repair smashed up furniture and shattered windows–––after nursing a giant hangover.
Meanwhile, the demons who created Marxism cackle with glee and chortle with joy at the spectacle of disarray and destruction you have unwittingly let them import into your lives.
"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."
Well, Lord, after two-thousand years isn't it about time we started to realize our culpability in Your Death and take some responsibility for it?
Honi soit qui mal y pense, ma chere Z.
Sorry, I forgot to sign the last two posts.
I'm happy to take responsibility for anything I say.
~ FreeThinke
Cj,
Exactly what or who did you have in mind when you said this? It seems cryptic to me.
••• When a sin category is equated with an ethnic or religious group, I think we can be sure we are in the very last days of planet earth. The nation that does such a thing is certainly inviting God's wrath. Cheers. •••
FT
Homosexual acts are sin, FT, seems pretty straightforward to me to point out that practitioners of same should not be treated as the equivalent of ethnic groups.
FJ,
One of Hitler's doctors (I forget which) attributed Hitler's homosexual proclivities to his having only one testicle.
Many people surrounding Hitler in those days thought Hitler was a pole smoker.
There were likely right.
Rumors, beamish. He was sexually "dysfunctional", no doubt about it... but I would go with the pscho-analysts of the day and label him more a "pervert" with a peculiar "fetish".
FJ,
What about his flophouse days, when he was living near commune style with male prostitutes?
What about Eva Braun's diary, where she wrote that ol' Adolf couldn't or wouldn't have sex with her? It doesn't seem, from her diary, like they ever did.
Face it, she was his beard. His closet door. Same as his other previous "girlfriend" that killed herself.
Hitler was as gay as grass is green.
Bunch of bloody drama queens!
:)
Yesterday at 8:23 Jin wrote:
"Thank you for you remarks, Mustang. I have only one bone to pick with you. The tactics used by Gay activists are not "Hitlerian," rather they are MARXIAN and part of the Cultural Marxist Agenda dreamed by Italian communist Antonio Gramsci, whose ideas were co-opted, amplified and brilliantly implemented by George Lukacs, Theo Adorno and Herbert Marcuse and other members of the infamous Frankfurt School. Also Bela Kuhn of Hungary.
The aim of these evil geniuses was to infiltrate, subvert then destroy the White, Christian, Protestant, Male-dominated Establishment that supported and maintained the flowering of Western Civilization."
Jin perhaps you focus a bit too narrowly on the Frankfurt School. They were evil bastards for sure, but their statist and totalitatian/collectivist predecessors were even more to blame. I'm referring to Marx & Engels, Rosseau, Robespierre (French Revolution), and if you want to venture far enough back in time we can thank the wretched Spartans. The Frankfurt demons got their ideas and inspiration from these early collectivists. Ironically, if the Spartans hadn't saved Europe from the Persians, we would uniformly revile them for their inhuman, anti-individual culture!
Heck, I haven't even begun to study the work of the original "Liberation Theology" that was being practiced by offshoots of the Catholic Church in the 17th and 18th Centuries in the Americas, especially South America and Mexico. It has the odor of proto-Marxism to me.
My point? This Marxist/Collectivist/Totalitarian disease has "roots and branches" FAR more complicated than the Frankfurt School that I've heard you obsess about for three years now. The Frankfurters are a despicable lot of commies for sure, and the world would have been far better off had they all been strangled in the crib. If you think that's harsh you underestimate the damage done by these commie/fascist animals.
In case you haven't read Jonah Goldberg's awesome book, "Liberal Fascism" you need to get busy! :-) Jonah has laid out in DETAIL the intellectual and ideological roots of this horror that we face today. He has done his homework!
Morgan
"CJ said...
Homosexual acts are sin, FT, seems pretty straightforward to me to point out that practitioners of same should not be treated as the equivalent of ethnic groups."
I know cj, it's in the Bible that you "shall not lie with another man as though he were a woman" or something very close to that. I understand where you're coming from AND I understand the revulsion you feel when you see two guys in a 2 minute long lip lock. It's NORMAL, I get it.
BUT (with 1 T)
I truly believe 98% of all people are born straight or gay and they DON'T have a choice in the matter. That may break down into 96% straight and 3% gay, 1% switch hitters, I'm not sure. I grew up with a very beautiful girl cousin who is a man trapped in woman's body. She's a lesbian. My best buddy's little brother-Scotty-was a "girl" from the time he could speak. He of course is gay.
If you doubt me, ask yourself WHEN you made the choice to be straight. Sounds silly doesn't it?
Morgan
No, Morgan... I disagree. FT/jin is precisely right in pinning down the Frankfurt School as the turning point. It wasn't UNTIL the Franfurt School that the liberal dialogue was forced closed and its' implementation LITERALLY went underground.
The preceeding thinkers and philosophers made their cases in the clear and open and offered CHOICE. Many arguments, like Marx's, were flawed... but were made in the OPEN.
With the Marcusian project began a deliberate manipulation of the "Freudian" subconscious to eliminate the "surplus repression" of thought we commonly refer to as HUMAN CONSCIENCE.
May Herbert Marcuse and his followers rot for all eternity in the HELL of their own creations. I, for one, will NOT be accompanying them.
The Left no longer requires "thinkers". They require "activists". The New Left imitates the Titans of Greek mythology, the hecatomcheires.
They are no longer your father's Marxist "red menace". They have metamorphosized into something far, far more nefarious.
FJ I'll I'm willing to cede the argument that the "Frankfurters" represented a new and sinister turn in the TACTICS of the left. I guess my point was that they didn't spring from an ideological vacuum. Not in the least!
Maybe the only thing new about them was HOW they chose to subvert the culture.
Commies were HORRIFICALLY evil long before the Frankfurt school and Herbert Marcuse. If your point is that they changed commie tactics...OK. We need to update our grease guns in that case. :-)
Morgan
Morgan,
I do believe that gays don't have a choice about it, that these feelings simply happen to them unbidden, as the sexual feelings of any of us do. Acting on those feelings nevertheless remains sin in the eyes of God.
You can't treat ANY sin as LEGALLY acceptable in a society if you want the society to survive. Of course my saying that is based on my belief in God's law as spelled out in the Bible. That law called for death as punishment for many kinds of sexual sins, including homosexual sin. To be fair I have to add then that ANY kind of sexual sin that God condemns must not be officially accepted by society if that society is to survive. I put the emphasis on "officially" because the point is what the society stands for and what it does publically and legally. The holocaust memorial is as good as saying that the society accepts homosexuality. Of course homosexuals were persecuted for BEING homosexual so I can't come back and just say that it's like making a memorial to adulterers or hetero fornicators and so on because those groups weren't so singled out. But I still think the principle is in there.
Even if homosexuality just occurs unbidden that doesn't make it normal or natural. It is still a perversion of the normal heterosexual biology and psyche of human beings, and it is still sin. I can get into a whole dissertation about how the human race has been deteriorating psychologically and spiritually more and more as a result of our fallen nature, sin begetting sin down the ages, again based on my belief in the Biblical revelation, also as a result of the encouragement of anti-Biblical forces in the society, so that it is no surprise if there is more homosexuality along with all kinds of other sexual aberrations among us these days. But we dare not legitimize them as a nation if we want God to continue with us as a nation. But the anti-God forces are winning -- most recent and virulent of the strain in this respect being the Cultural Marxists -- and it's already too late really, isn't it? All the more so when nonMarxists join in the chorus.
I figure I should emphasize that we're already in trouble because of how we've been tacitly and in some cases officially legitimizing other sexual sins, including multiple marriages (divorce), unmarried cohabitation, subsidizing unmarried parents and so on. So it isn't just homosexuality, but it is like homosexuality represents some kind of turning point, a critical point to which all the other Sin Liberations have brought us.
The BIBLE is loaded with steaming piles of stinking BULLSHIT layered in among many great universal truths by ancient control freaks desperate for power.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded, and not very bright.
God is not the greatest oxymoron if all time.
It's always a relief when a person says what he really thinks, FT, so that there's no more pretense and we all understand that the way things have come down is the way they should have come down.
Signed,
Deluded, not very bright believer in the absolute truth of the Bible,
and very sorry for those who pit themselves against God, or make up their own God, out of pride and self-worship, instead of humbling themselves and admitting their faults and sins so that they might be saved.
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