UPDATE: FOR THE MANY OF YOU FINDING THIS BLOG AFTER GOOGLING THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE, my post here was only an urging for my readers to watch last night's show on CBS. You may find much more interesting information in COMMENTS, so feel free to click there and read. Thanks for coming by.
Original Post: If you watch 60 Minutes tonight on CBS, there will be a segment on the Armenian genocide and the controversy surrounding it. While some Turks do admit that 1.5 Armenians died at their hands at the turn of the last century, the country has never officially acknowledged it. I'd be interested in your opinions.
z
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33 comments:
Z,
The Ottoman Empire has been let off without any consequences for its nearly centuries of oppression. The Turks have always been history's mysteries. They have been repressive to every area they dominated.
The Balkans, the Iberian peninsula, Greece etc., What the history tells us is that they killed millions and have never admitted it or been held accountable. Western imperialists are excoriated in the media, Islam, not so much.
Z,
That should read, "many" centuries. Sorry
Law and Order, I hope you can watch and let me know what you thought of how they handled it...
I'm thinking that Turks are afraid the Armenians will come after them for reparations and that might be ONE of the reasons they'll never admit it.......
We once had a fiacre driver in Vienna telling us about statues we saw throughout the town as he drove us around....Prince Eugene drove the Turks out the first time years and years ago but Vienna's infested with Turkish muslims NOW and the guy turned around and said "So, he drove them out ..but it didn't work..they're baaaack!" Cracked us up then, but little did we know, 2001 hadn't happened yet.
I just watched the show, and although our president said he'd address the issue after the elections, it has yet to be mentioned.
They are all a bunch of liars.
Children were picking up the bones.
my gosh, Linda...it was SO atrocious...my grandmother lived through it...walked for 3 months in the desert to Syria...horrible times..she saw AWFUL THINGS.
She never liked to talk to us about it...most old Armenians didn't because it was so horrible and they didn't want us kids to know.
I call it the "Low tech holocaust" versus the horrible Jewish HIGH tech holocaust...
My opinion —history is replete with thousands of examples of bad things happening to innocent people. I think it would not hurt the Turks to “apologize” … if doing so would ameliorate the much-damaged relationship between Armenians and Turks. Perhaps the Turks have not apologized because they do not wish European world courts demanding reparations; recall that the Turks do not enjoy the blessings of most Europeans these days. Besides, no amount of apologizing is sufficient; we cannot bring those people back to life. It is time to go forward; let us dispense with blaming Rome for every bad thing that ever happened to the French in the past 1800 years.
Mustang out
I had to delete a commment from a supposedly 'half Armenian' man who blames 1.5 Armenian deaths on the Armenians for having provoked the Turks. Yes, women and children died in huge numbers...it's the Armenians' faults....
He also mentioned how there was unrest among ARmenians which caused the genocide, they brought it on themselves.
I wouldn't let the comment stay because he was so rude and couldn't argue with civility ...
I guess he might figure the Jews brought the holocaust on themselves, too.
There can be no excuse for the slaughter of 1.5 million people. NONE.
I forgot to mention in the comment just above this, Mustang, that my comment does include the reparations suggestion..I think that's a big part of the Turks' denial..The Germans have paid billions and are still paying huge amounts of money to Jewish survivors and their descendants...Turkey does not want to do that. And I think Armenians would be wrong to go for money, anyway, by the way.
I also believe that a Turkish official acceptance of guilt would do nothing for anybody; it's not like people don't know what happened. At least the EU will probably not admit them until they do admit guilt, then "bye, bye Europe"...TRUST me.
Well, genocide is never right, it is always criminal, and no one with common sense would blame the murdered. If I walked up to Z and smacked her upside the head, and she pulled out a gun and killed me, she would be guilty of murder and I would be guilty of being a bully. Being offensive to someone doesn't give them the right to take you life. Kick your butt, yes, kill you NO!
I agree with Mustang and Z. Sometimes it's better to move on and remember enough so that the issue doesn't happen again. But humanity seems to only remember when money is involved, and not the lesson. Remember what Pol Pot did in Cambodia????
HAM
Once in a while I miss TV, and this is one of those times. But I'm pretty aware of the history of that massacre anyway. Awful that it is suppressed by the Turks.
If the Turks had to address their treatment of Armenians in the past, they'd have to address their current treatment of Kurds now.
It's not going to happen.
Beamish, as a matter of fact, when Armenian families had knocks on their door and were herded out NOW to either be slaughtered outside or walk in the desert for months like my own grandmother did, their homes remained intact and Kurds are the peoples who moved right in.
One can hardly blame people for wanting to live in nice homes with everything including breakfast sitting ready on the table, I guess.
I just watched the program....I have to admit it was emotional for me to watch.
Balakian, the fellow who's interviewed throughout that, has a book called BLACK DOG OF FATE and I think it's the best thing written on the subject; VERY VERY readable, very interesting...I have to admit I have never in my life cried as hard as I did in parts of that book as I kept wondering if my grandmother had seen some of what he describes..it was scary.
I thought the Turkish ambassador came off as a liar and 60 Minutes did a good job presenting the situation.
My sitemeter's showing tons of people interested in this subject...and Google lists me on the third page so people are really searching....
interesting.
Z,
It is something of a three-way battle there between Turks, Kurds, and Armenians.
The Turks tactics againsts Armenians were genocidal, killing peoiple outright, while the tactics against Kurds has been more cultural based. For a long time newspapers, books, and other media in Turkey was forbidden from publishing / broadcasting in the Kurdish language. Several hundred thousand Kurds have been forceably relocated and their towns razed in the last 20 years. It is still, to this day, illegal for Kurds in Turkey to give their newborn children traditional Kurdish names.
The difference in treatment between Armenians and Kurds in Turkey may have a religious component. Armenians are typically Christian, and Kurds are typically Muslim.
Kurdish Muslim-ness spares them the full genocidal fury, but only by so much. Turkey has found a different way to destroy them.
I don't think there's any 'battle' today between Kurds and Armenians, Beamish, at least I have never grown up hearing anything nor have I heard it in any Armenian newspapers, etc.
I feel for the Kurds, their treatment from about everyone's been abominable.
I was able to see part of the program, and from what I did see, it looked like 60 minutes did a good job.
What a horrific thing that was. Frankly to me, the thought of reparations diminishes the whole terrible ordeal. Money doesn't wash anything clean, nor does it relieve one of guilt. As if somehow guilt is erased by buying it off.
Living with guilt is the penalty people suffer for wrongdoing and no amount of money paid can change that. Money doesn't relieve the pain people suffer or have suffered either.
Descendants of the murderers should not have to bear the sins of their fathers. We can only hope the hatred that caused this holocaust has waned.
Descendants of the victims, sadly, can do nothing but try to overcome that trauma, and go on with their own lives and expect nothing from the people who committed this evil against their people.
As long as they look back and demand acknowledgement or apology, they are not truly free of the very people who wrought such evil.
The best revenge now, is to live well and prosper. Having had the privilege of meeting Z's family, I can see they have accomplished just that. What lovely people they are. That's the best revenge of all.
Pris
Just one event in the long, long line of events which prove there is NOTHING we will not do to each other.
All you have to do is be outside the tribe and all religion, ethics and humanity becomes void.
I actually think the topic is not covered enough. Is there a movie about it by the way?
That's why I have real issues with Turkey as a possible EU country. Yet it's better for the American foreign policy. But it stinks for Europe, which is already a mess and can't deal with integrating the Muslim immigrants since they have no jobs but only a broken welfare system to offer.
FrogBurger, I said this above "At least the EU will probably not admit them until they do admit guilt, then "bye, bye Europe"...TRUST me."
I couldn't agree with you more. Once there are no passports needed between Turkey and other EU countries, which is what happens when a country joins the EU, it'll be "all forces go" and those mosques being built even in small beautiful German villages will then be occupied with the muslims they must be expecting, because they don't have the numbers there now to fill them and it's a curiosity why they're being built.
Pris, reparations are a horrible idea and would cheapen the argument for sure. And, you're right..there are Turks today who do know what happened and will discuss it. I went to a memorial service for the Armenian newspaper man whose murder they discussed, it was very moving; he was a real hero.
Thanks for the nice comment about my family...I'm very lucky.
Ducky, Christians have helped people "outside their tribe" all over the world and will always continue to do so.
Despite his stated opposition to those who exclude others from "outside the tribe", Mr ducky consistently fails to draw distinctions between exogamous and endogamous cultures and will defend endogamous ones to the death provided they once practiced calligraphy.
We missed it because we gave up watching 60 Minutes many years ago.
Z, like your grandmother, Mr. Cube's grandmother and her siblings were forced into the desert. She and her brothers carried their baby sister as far as they could, but when their strength became depleted and they could barely walk themselves, she fell behind and was never seen again.
How people can go on living and remain good and sane after such a horrific ordeal is a marvel.
FJ...too good: "....provided they once practiced calligraphy."
Cube, I should have let you know..We finally gave up watching 60 Minutes a long time ago, too, but I was alerted to it, sorry :-(
Your story is very familiar...
sometimes, my mother would say Grandma (her mother-in-law) could be 'fragile' and 'skittish' at times and I remember thinking "it's a wonder she's SANE"
I met Mr. Cube's grandmother before she died and I was amazed at her inner strength, her fierce independence, and how down to earth she was despite her horrific upbringing. What a lovely woman she was.
Z,
I wasn't home last night, sorry. I'll take your word for the fact that Worship Obama for 60 minutes would do some fair reporting. As I said, the oppression of Turkey for those many centuries is a sordid story. Western imperialism bad, Islam imperialism excused.
What your grandmother had to go through is a horrid story unfortunately repeated many times in many places.
Z, I've read at length about the Armenian genocide. I don't yet understand the horror and brutality of such behavior.
I lost great aunts and uncles etc. in the Shoa, and heard the pain in the voice of my grandparents, yet the mindset of such slaughter eludes me.
I appreciate you posting this because we should NEVER forget what happened to Armenia!
Sorry I missed this. I haven't watched 60 Minutes in many years. Their blatant leftist bias, persistent muckraking negativism, and their obvious determination to make every attempt to destroy public confidence in American industry and other aspects of our culture turned off COMPLETELY.
~ FreeThinke
Ft..who watches 60 Minutes anymore?
Most of us watched it because I'd alerted everybody to it in this post or they had friends tell them......
I wish you'd seen it, it was fascinating.
How can we understand that cruel mentality? They are human so how can they be so far from compassionate? The Chinese Communists have treated the Tibetans with similar brutality, and just today I received a long passionate letter from a little church in India whose pastor has been trying to help neighboring churches where the Hindus have been persecuting the Christians. He goes on and on about what they have been suffering and he sounds here like he too doesn't understand (you have to make some allowance for his English, for instance he means the dominATING people are the Hindus):
>>>>sister In Orissa the dominated people are Hindus. They are rich and have cruel mentalities. These people encourage tribal caste people to beat, to kill, to rape believers in Orissa. The Hindu people give money and food and encourage beating believers. They also give training to the tribal’s and making them as groups like bajarang dal,Sevasamithi,RSS,VHP etc. They also live same places where these believers live. But these are very Hindu traditionalists and some are living like cannibalizes. They like to see the blood of innocent believers. They are very happy when believers cry. They like to burn the houses. They like to burn the people alive. They like raping women and abusing them. They are living like sadists and cannibalists. I do not understand how they are living when these are suffering, paining in front of their streets.<<<
He explains at one point that the leader of these persecutors is the well known guru Sai Baba -- who also has followers and ashrams in America by the way -- google him for the info--Houston, Chicago etc. Since the sixties we've had these demon-possessed people in our midst.
And I mean they are LITERALLY demon-possessed. The head of The Spiritual Counterfeits Project in Berkeley, Tal Brooke, wrote at least one book about his personal experience as a disciple of Sai Baba before he became a Christian:
http://www.scp-inc.org/president/index.php
ONLY CHRISTIANS seem to be in a position to know tnat the practitioners of Hinduism and other religions ARE demon-possessed, just as in any shamanistic religion such as voodoo where they consciously ask to be possessed in order to gain the demons' power.
THIS IS THE BONDAGE humanity fell into when Adam and Eve bought the serpent's lie. This is the bondage from which Christ came to save us. And it EXPLAINS the brutality that our human nature really can't understand, because the demons are full of hatred for humanity and are sadists and when they possess an anti-Christian religionist -- such as dedicated Islamists like the Turks who killed the Armenians -- or the Nazis killing Jews (because they stand for the living God) or a Communist, they DELIGHT in the most sadistic of cruelties against their victims. Same with the Inquisition -- truly literally demon-inspired against the TRUE believers.
Those possessed by the demons need to be set free too, of course, and the most miraculous conversions are of that type, witch doctors and the most evil persecutors -- it is a tremendous joy when they come to Christ.
Well, somebody asked. How DO we understand this level of cruelty? There's your answer.
Hello everyone,
just wanted to say that Yes I am an Armenian, and my name is Dolly Kelejian, and I am proud of my heritage, but what I have come to most treasure from being an Armenian is that,we were the first nation to accept Christianity as our religion, and with this I believe our Lord expects us to act in that way. Jesus Christ came for our salvation, He was spat on, Scourged, beaten, crucified, and yet He came on earth to teach to love even our enemies and forgive. It is not easy to walk in the Lord's foot steps. So I come to you all today, and humble myself and I forgive the turkish people who were part of the Armenian Genocide. I will not forget what they have done, and I will teach my children about all of it, but I will also teach what the Lord teaches because that is the only way to be set free from the evil and the only way to our Lord. I pray with all my heart that one day our Lord Jesus Christ would be able to be glorified through us the Armenian people by being the first humble nation that would forgive their enemies, just for the love of God, because it Him who chose us to be the first nation who accepted Christianity as a state relegion, so let us unite and forgive, because it only then, that God and only God would be able to give us back what we lost. Prayfully, Dolly Kelejian
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