Sunday, July 13, 2008

Sunday thoughts.........floods, fires, famine, tornadoes, hurricanes......



Hosea 4

".... the LORD has a charge to bring

against you who live in the land:

"There is no faithfulness, no love,

no acknowledgment of God in the land.

2 There is only cursing, [a] lying and murder,

stealing and adultery;

they break all bounds,

and bloodshed follows bloodshed.

3 Because of this the land mourns, [b]

and all who live in it waste away;

the beasts of the field and the birds of the air

and the fish of the sea are dying.

2 Chronicles 7:14

...if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

We could SURE use some 'healing' today, couldn't we?

thank you, M...

47 comments:

elmers brother said...

yes we could

Pat Jenkins said...

but yet bad things come to good people..... the "wrath of God" can seem so indiscriminate. whether that is good or bad i do not know!!!

Z said...

You answered your question in your Tony Snow article comment, I think, pat. you wrote:

"one thing that stood out for me watching him suffer was his "defiant", and I will repeat again, defiant belief in the positive. trying to force it while i know he was hurting both physically and emotionally. it is not easy watching someone die. but mr. snow may of been the example to follow!!!"

It's how we live and the fact that, if you believe in his faith like he did, what mattered to him was doing his absolute best to honor God and set an example through how he lived and, very clearly, the example he wanted us to see as he was dying. He so clearly in that article, in so many ways, showed that he didn't believe it was any "wrath of God" which made him sick, it was his body which let him down even when his spirit never flagged or doubted or showed desperation or disappointment.

BOY, ALL OF US, I think, share your thoughts regarding how can bad things happen to good people, but I saw this comment you left here and then saw the comment you left on the Snow article (which I copied/pasted above) and they just seemed to dovetail. Do you see it? Except that 'defiance' was more 'i'm going to live every day to the fullest because every day is such a gift', I THINK (how do I really know?!)...from what Tony Snow says in that terrific piece about dying from cancer, he knew he was going to a better place and still trusted God for that....

Gayle said...

We can all learn from Tony Snow, Z, if only we will!

Yep... we are seeing a lot of floods, fires, famine, tornadoes and hurricanes. One does have to wonder.

Anonymous said...

I'm not sure there are any more natural disasters than there have been in years gone past.

When we have 24 hour cable news, we hear and see all the bad news that fit to "show". Not only here, but, the world over.

It can seem overwhelming, but, I think it's because we're exposed to so much more now.

Pris

EDGE said...

"God is mysterious."

Forrest Gump

Anonymous said...

Pris, you took the thoughts right out of my head. I was going to say something very like that. good thing I read the posts first.


I think millions upon millions of people who are innocent because they are ignorant have been made to suffer and die not because they are guilty of wrongdoing, but because they've had poor leadership or been led down the garden path by truly evil influences whose main purpose has been to confuse, corrupt and thus weaken people's defenses against temptation.


Just as cancer strikes people of any age, any social and economic status, any level of intelligence, every degree of moral and immoral behavior, etc. so do the weather and cataclysmic geological forces strike blindly without rhyme or reason.


What the people in Sodom and Gomorrah were doing was done in many-if-not-most places in the ancient world, yet only the "Cities of the Plain" were destroyed.

Why did the earthquake hit the province of Szechuan, destroying whole villages and killing tens of thousands, when other places in China probably behaved as badly or worse?

Why did the typhoon hit Burma? Why did the tsunamis destroy so much innocent life along the coast of Thailand and beyond the day after Christmas a couple of years ago?

Why did the earthquake tear up much of southern Pakistan killing thousands and leaving millions more homeless living in flimsy tents later crushed as they were covered in a blizzard?

What's happening right now to the people in Iowa and other points along the Mississippi River where levees broke and whole towns have been flooded out and evacuated?

Do volcanoes erupt, tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves form and rivers flood, because God is angry at his people?

For every bad person killed under these circumstances there are probably several hundred thousand who are innocent of wrongdoing of any consequence.

Nature is part of God's creation, but I believe Nature acts quite independently of any system of moral strictures that have been imposed on us by holy writ.

~ FreeThinke

nanc said...

we all wonder why bad things happen to good people. unfortunately, we were never given the promise in this life that it would be easy or wonderful at all times.

quite frankly, i've learned more from my tribulations than any of my fortunes. must be the job factor?

good things happen to evil people by matter of their selling out to what they believe life should be - the strong delusion.

pris - you need to check the statistics on natural disasters - they are up from even ten years ago - in some cases 70%. our nation is under judgment. try all you may to dress it up, but as z has stated 2 chronicles 7:14 is most appropriate.

roger - see this article on heart trouble. God will not contend with man for much longer. even His patience has its ends. hence the back of the book.

nanc said...

hosea 4:6 "MY people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children."

'member dat!

we're only destroyed for our lack of knowledge because we don't really have a desire to know. once again THINKING we believe we have a better way.

proverbs 16:25 "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

isaiah 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

let us never believe our ways usurp the ALMIGHTY'S.

CJ said...

I agree, the nation is definitely under judgment -- it would be strange if it weren't if you think about what God's law asks of a nation and how this nation has been defying His law for the last half century.

And there must be more to come since there has been no repentance. Economic disaster is I think going to be the main fallout of the terrible weather. It's going to have nationwide effects over time. The destruction of crops in the Midwest is one of the latest judgments. And didn't Bush say recently that there's enough relief money for the heartland disasters but not much more in the bank? How many more disasters will break the bank completely and then what? The fire season is barely getting underway here in the West and Northern California has been devastated already. Hurricane season has just begun on the Atlantic side of the country. 9/11 and Katrina both contributed to the growing economic problems. Airlines going bankrupt, oil prices soaring, raising food costs as transportation costs rise. Sure, there are other causes as well, it all works together.

Some Presidents of the past occasionally called for a day of fasting and prayer for the nation but in this day of multiculturalism that isn't going to happen, is it? I wrote President Bush a few years ago asking him to do it and got no answer of course.

And it doesn't seem that the churches are doing much in the way of obeying 2 Chronicles 7:14 either. Humbling ourselves should at least mean calling a corporate fast of a day and preferably more, to confess the sins of the nation and pray for healing. The amazing power of God potential in the American churches is staggering to think about, really, but it remains latent while Christians are content with a daily prayer list and a few hours a week of worship and singing.

Well, individuals can do what we can.

The Merry Widow said...

All we can do under this judgment, is use it to witness to others that there IS a Hope and a future for those who trust in G*D's Son.
Matthew 24 is coming to pass, do I like it? NO!
But I am ot G*D, and HIS patience with fallen man has gone on since the Garden.
Why was Canaan commanded to be destroyed? Tablets have been found that describe same sex marriages, OFFICIAL documents.
Why the Flood? There is evidence that same sex marriage was a widespread phenomena...why are the fires in California NOTjumping the borders, like they normally do?
And why has our heartland been devastated by floods and tornados?
Read Deuteronomy, the part about what happens to a nation that DOES NOT obey G*D's clear commands.
The destruction of the "breadbasket" is part of the curse!
I won't put it all up, but if you go through the whole section you can pin point where we are as a nation.
I may do that at my site...
Good morning, G*D bless and Maranatha!

tmw

Anonymous said...

Fantastic scripture, z. I love your faith. This is what we need more than anything else right now. If God's people will pray what a difference it would make. Australian Christians joined together last year to pray for desperately needed rain in response to a request by our previous prime minister and by a Christian pastor and miraculously the rain started. Today my state is well out of the danger zone and our dams are brimming with water. I think God wanted us to see that if only we would pray united He would do so much for us.

Anonymous said...

Pris wrote:
"I'm not sure there are any more natural disasters than there have been in years gone past.
When we have 24 hour cable news, we hear and see all the bad news that fit to "show". Not only here, but, the world over.
It can seem overwhelming, but, I think it's because we're exposed to so much more now."

I agree totally. Nanette and I had this EXACT discussion the other day. She watches the news and is convinced that thewir are more evil people out there than ever before. She was referring to rapist, murderers, molesters and the like.

I argued that MAYBE in hard numbers she was right. After all, we have 300 million people in America, which is up 100 million from 45 years ago, give or take a few years.

AND we have a 24 hour news cycle that beats the dog snot out of every story and most people have cable now! Remember the Jean Benet Ramsey story rehashed three days ago? Once again it brought to mind the brutal murder of a little girl and the mother who was deemed "deceptive" on a polygraph.
Don't let the news get you down, it's bad on purpose!

Morgan

Anonymous said...

Well, we can do nothing to repair "the nation"–––this nation and certainly not any other. "Repairing the World" is a concept that has been tragically misunderstood.


We can only work on ourselves as individuals and we can only hope to influence those close to us with whom we live and work by exercising compassion, growing in understanding, working to be ever more productive and setting the best possible example hoping others might "see our good works" and follow in our footsteps.


We need to encourage each other and foster every good instinct and make it grow, while trying to dissuade other from anti-social, self-destructive pursuits.


When you are a parent, a teacher or an employer, the vital part of your job is forever telling others what to do and how to do it. The trick is to do it without belittling, without sarcasm and without terrorizing.


Unfortunately, as free adults gathering for social purposes or for voluntary charity work, none of us takes too well to being corrected, and many resent being taught or instructed.


Public condemnation of those we know or try to relate to as friends or equals in a social, volunteer or teamwork construct will certainly be resented, and may even start an insurrection.


The idea of accosting strangers or colleagues at parties, meetings or in the street, and aggressively telling them what they need to do in order to perfect themselves as human beings, be more successful in their work, raise their children to be responsible adults, and thus make a greater contribution to humanity is presumptuous in the extreme, and bound to offend and get someone’s back up.


By simply BEING better people without fanfare and self-congratulation, we have a much better chance of having a good influence on others than by acting the part of a self-styled Censor and unbearably arrogant Know-It-All.


“One does, indeed, catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.”


Let the Bible inform US so that WE might inspire OTHERS. Bashing others over the head with the Bible is not going to help ANYONE least of all the one who does the bashing. LIVING the Bible is far more challenging–––and far more rewarding–––than talking AT people ABOUT the Bible


O Lord, increase my faith
Strenghten me 
And confirm me in thy true faith,
Endue me with wisdom,
Charity and patience
In all my adversity.
Sweet Jesus, say Amen.

~ Orlando Gibbons (1583-1625)


Gibbons was one of England’s finest composer of contrapuntal anthems and madrigals. His setting of this prayer is still sung at worship services with fair frequency where great music is appreciated. ~ FreeThinke

The Merry Widow said...

FT-Fixing the world is Messiah's job...our's is to proclaim HIM. If necessary, use words.
Our job is also to be conformed into Christ's Image, as Romans 12:1-2 states.
But, if the watchmen in the towers DO NOT warn of approaching danger, the blood of the people is on their heads, and they WILL give an account to G*D for their delinquency!
Read Ezekiel 33:1-12, actually the whole chapter is well worth the study. Watchmen HAVE TO SPEAK, or they are guilty of murder!
Therefore, if you are driving a car, and are coming up to a bridge over a chasm, AND I KNOW THE BRIDGE IS OUT, and I do not do everything in my power to stop you, I am culpable in your death.
Same with this country, if I do not warn that the path she is on is leading to destruction, I AM GUILTY!
Sorry, but, I would rather be told, "Well done thou good and faithful servant", from the Lord, than good things from you or anybody else.
I am not a man pleaser.
Good morning, G*D bless and Maranatha!

tmw
Z-Excellent post, and I have used it as a jumping off point for a quick study in Deuteronomy 27 & 28.

Z said...

I do believe this country would be far, far, far better off if we were to do what the Scriptures I posted tell us to do. I would like to see a graph charted with when we took prayer out of schools, when the ACLU started getting busy getting God off all they can get their hands on, when abortion became legal, etc., and how our culture has declined......I believe it would be a steep and undeniable downward angle.

Thanks for the great discussion.

Anonymous said...

I found the following gem at Canterbury Cathedral while in England on an extended visit way back in 1981. I liked it, bought a framed copy at the Gift Shoppe in the cathedral close, and have had it close to me ever since. The attribution is anonymous.


SEVENTEENTH-CENTURY NUN'S PRAYER


Lord, Thou knowest better than I know myself, that I am growing older and will someday be old. Keep me from the fatal habit of thinking I must say something on every subject and on every occasion. Release me from craving to straighten out everyone's affairs. Make me thoughtful but not moody; helpful but not bossy. With my vast store of wisdom, it seems a pity not to use it all, but Thou knowest, Lord, that I hope to have a few friends left at the end.


Keep my mind free from the recital of endless details; give me wings to get to the point. Seal my lips on my aches and pains. They are increasing, and love of rehearsing them is becoming sweeter as the years go by. I dare not ask for grace enough to enjoy the tales of others' pains, but help me to endure them with patience.


I dare not ask for improved memory, but for a growing humility and a lessening of cocksureness when my memory seems to clash with the memories of others. Teach me please the glorious lesson of knowing that occasionally I may be mistaken.


Keep me reasonably sweet; I do not want to be a Saint–––some of them are so hard to live with–––but a sour old person is one of the crowning works of the devil. Give me the ability to see good things in unexpected places, and talents in unexpected people. And, give me, O Lord, the grace to tell them so.

AMEN!

~ FreeThinke

nanc said...

i prefer to be crabby.

*;[

Z said...

http://the-merry-widow.blogspot.com/

for more on the subject, check out the above link...
Sure should be food for thought.

namaste said...

but i LIKE my wicked ways! *sigh* NOW what am i supposed to do?!

;)

The Merry Widow said...

Namaste-Jump on down and join the rest of us human beings! LOL!

tmw

Z said...

Namaste.....exactly! And TMW's right! WHO DOESN"T HAVE EVIL WAYS? (yippeeee!!)

cracked me up!...

nanc said...

i just hate having to admit it so often!

bwaaaaaaaaaaaaahahaha!

*8]

CJ said...

TMW is right, those who see destruction coming are watchmen according to Ezekiel 33 and are obligated to tell others. Being a watchman certainly means giving the gospel of salvation through Christ, but it also means announcing danger to the nation and encouraging people to pray -- yes, the way they did in Australia as Aurora reports. If only we would obey 2 Chronicles 7:14 -- whole churches if possible but at least the few who see what's happening -- God might very well heal the land, and give us revival.

FT, where on earth is the "vinegar" in warning people of disaster? Of course you don't see the problem because you don't believe the Bible, but the Bible is clear to those who trust it and it tells us that God is sovereign over all things that happen, and is very specific in warning us about His judgments, as TMW has pointed out. Deuteronomy 28 and Leviticus 26 spell out what we can expect.

Anonymous said...

From St. Paul's Second Letter to the Corinthians
(King James Version)


1. Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4. Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5. Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6. Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7. Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9. For now we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.


~ FreeThinke


Whole libraries could, and probably have, been written on the implications and true meaning of these words. Charity is understood to be synonymous with Love in most modern translations. People have struggled and battled for thousands of years to find perfect understanding of what the Bible means. "Now we see through a glass darkly" has always meant to me that no one is equipped to understand fully the magnitude of Eternal Truth and Love.

If you feel sure of your understanding, I'm glad. It must be a great comfort, but I am only sure that myriad others see the same things and read the same texts with very different points of view. I believe atheists are wrong, but I wouldn't want to condemn them for their views. God, Himself, will doubtless take perfect care of that in time.

"Hold fast to that which is good. Render not evil for evil," and I doubt if you can go far wrong.

Good will to all and a peaceful heart.

~ FT

CJ said...

Well, I suppose this isn't going to be resolved, but FT, you can't use one part of the Bible to contradict another; it all works together as a whole. It isn't condemning anyone to point out that judgment is going to come to them, or that they are in fact condemned. In fact it is an opportunity for them to repent so that they WON'T be condemned. And that IS love.

The Bible addresses not only individuals but whole nations as corporate entities. If people aren't warned that God is bringing judgment against this nation then they won't do anything to prevent it coming. The sad thing is that even many Bible believers don't see it coming. The sad thing is that few Bible believers recognized that 9/11 was judgment.

Believers have the tremendous power of God at our disposal, yes, really we do, and it is SO sad that we fail to seek Him as we should so that we may be His instrument for keeping judgment away. He doesn't want to bring judgment but sin requires judgment. What do you think of parents who condone or ignore a child's stealing or hitting or rudeness and don't punish it? Is that love, or wouldn't punishing them be love?

The Merry Widow said...

To true, CJ. It is not love to allow your child to behave badly. Why? Because then they will be shunned and end up in trouble for the rest of their lives. IT IS NOT LOVE TO WITHHOLD CORRECTION AND DISCIPLINE!
And by judging us, G*D opens the door to the salvation of souls.
This world and life are temporal(temporary), a time is coming when all will be Eternal.
It is hateful to allow someone to go to Hell without warning them!
I hate no one! Therefore I will be politically incorrect and tell them that the bridge is out! BECAUSE I LOVE THEM!
How much do you love the sinner headed to Hell?

tmw

CJ said...

I agree, TMW. Being a watchman can be a thankless task but God is the rewarder.

Gary said...

God has always done what was necessary to get our attention off of us and back on Him.

How quickly we become complacent when things are going smoothly in our lives, not recognizing how the Divine hand of providence touches us both directly and indirectly. It isn't until trials and difficulties come that we turn to God... How sad. His desire is us, yet we so oft take Him for granted.

Bloviating Zeppelin said...

I believe there's a great deal to what Pris observed. However, we could all use a bit of humility from time to time. I am reminded of my frailty in the threat to my home.

BZ

Z said...

I think it's definitely worth considering (and more optimistic) to think we're just hearing more about weather catastrophes, etc., like we all think now that every cop is a wife killer and more young husbands now push wives off cruise ships than want to live happily ever after (RIGHT!? Isn't that right?! HA!)...We just HEAR about everything SO MUCH MORE!

But, I think it's easy to see that we're hearing many "the first time in 100 years.." (which is, of course, pretty much as long as we've kept records around here!)..

Look...while I think we can't pick and choose the Word of God only to suit our own particular sensitivities, I posted this for opinions and I'm so appreciative of you all for chiming in. MUCH good stuff to consider. For everyone, I hope!?

And, I'll say I do think that there IS a God (usually....! Aurora, you compliment my faith and I thank you for that! .. but I am not a person who never feels doubt, trust me) and that the Bible IS his instructions and we'd ALL DO BETTER IF WE HEEDED THOSE INSTRUCTIONS!! This COUNTRY would be SO SO SO FAR BETTER OFF!!!..........But, ALL of the laws, not the easy ones, not only the sweet, loving ones...

funny. I find that a richer life, not a more stifling life; Odd, isn't it?

nanc said...

i love the stringent aspects. for some strange reason it brings me back to normal. but then again, living on the edge of your seat tends to keep you more aware of your surroundings.

elmers brother said...

Do you think God uses a percentage or the total numver of the population of Christians/religious people to decide when He should strike with a natural disaster?
(end sarcasm)

elmers brother said...

number

The Merry Widow said...

EB-About 18 yrs. ago, a pastor tried to enlist 1% of America to intercede based on the probable percentage of righteous men G*D was willing to spare Sodom and Gommoreh for...
You never know...

tmw
The upshot was, he couldn't get even that many to pray for America 18 yrs. ago! THAT is a worrisome thought.

Z said...

TMW...I'd venture a guess God would get that many easily today....I see a slight resurgence from twenty years ago.

Elbro; aren't there more Christians in California, by the numbers, than even in Arkansas? I'm thinking so...NOT percentage; NUMBERS, sheer numbers. I'm thinking I'm right.

even I can be right ONCE (Smile!)

Z said...

Here's stats: 86% of roughly 3 million Arkansans claim to be Christian and 73% of 33 million Californians claim to be Christian....
 
there are more Christians in California than in Arkansas

WOULD that we'd HEAR more from the, right?!

elmers brother said...

tmw the point I'm trying to make is if one thinks God is punishing California more than some other state...what is the basis of this assertion?

Does God deal in percentages? If he did and you had ten people from California and ten from Arkansas the chances of swinging a stick and hitting someone claiming to be a Christian are nearly identical

if it's total number then California has more total number of people who claim to be Christian

I'd agree that our country may be suffering from judgement from God in a general sense but to assert that God is confining His judgement of our nation to some artificial border seems really silly to me

The Merry Widow said...

EB-Have any of the fires jumped the borders? Don't they usually? Let's ask Nanc about that, since she still has family in the devastated areas.
And since California passed, by judicial fiat, same sex marriages, and if the Babylonian Talmud can be believed about what was happening with same sex marriages before the Flood, and in Canaan afterwards(which brought down total destruction)...I would feel safe in venturing to say that same sex marriage MAY be a factor in the fires.
And frankly, many churches in California, teach and practice heresy and doctrine of demons. We fled MANY because of what was being taught unashamably from the pulpits.
So people maybe Christians, but in most cases are not Bereans, do not search Scripture for themselves, and end up swallowing heresies by the bushel. Like that godless, "purposeless drivel and lies". I mean, WHERE IS JESUS in that mess? It's all about; me, my purpose(not G*D's), my strength, my decisions...yada, yada, yada.
I KNOW, I took the course, I had the book, the workbook, the journal...I TOSSED THEM!
Yes, there are precious believers out there, strong ones, but the Bereans are in short supply...and as I said, there is a lot of heresy mixed up in it!
Good morning, G*D bless and Maranatha!

tmw

elmers brother said...

tmw - not jumping borders?

on the one hand I'm to read statistics alleging more incidents of disaster and on the other I'm to believe because the fires haven't 'jumped' the borders that this is God's judegement against California?

The earth is in labor pains awaiting it's Messiah..God says it rains on both the righteous and the wicked...now if you can show me how to tell the difference between

1. the world's labor pains in anticipation of the arrival of the Messiah

2. the biblical axiom that bad things happen to both the wicked and the righteous

3. and the notion that God uses these natural disasters as a particular judgement against California vs Arkansas vs Iowa etc.

then I'll surely change my mind...until then your assertion is nothing more than anecdotal

1 Kngs. 19.11-13-- On the surface of things it may seem that the destruction that Elijah witnesses is directly intended by God since it is God who is passing by according to vs. 11, but then the text says "then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart...but the Lord was not in the wind. After the wind there as an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake. After the earthquake a conflagration, but the Lord was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper/light breeze/ or some render it still small voice." At the very least, this text tells us that God's will cannot be determined just by observing natural phenomena. But the text even says that God was not "in" these phenomena, which is saying more than just his will cannot be discerned in such events. It suggests that while nature reacts when its Maker comes down in theophany, God is not engendering these things in such a fashion that we could call them intelligible acts of God.

When Jesus is asked in Jn. 9 if the man born blind is that way because either he or his parents sinned the answer is no, but that God will use this malady to reveal his grace and glory. In other words, one cannot always correlate sickness or physical deformity and sin. Sometimes the most robust sinners are also the ones most robustly healthy. Sometimes great saints like Blaise Pascal die early deaths due to the ravages of a deformed and sickly body. There is no infallible spiritual logic to be deduced by analyzing who is sick or handicapped and who is not.

When Jesus is asked about a human tragedy or disaster, in this case the falling down of the tower of Siloam on unsuspecting and undeserving victims (Lk. 13.4-5), and whether the victims were worse sinners than others, his answer is a flat NO! In fact he had just said in Lk. 13.1-2 that the Galileans who were victims of deliberate human maliciousness of Pilate could not be said to be 'getting what they deserve', for Jesus insists they were not worse sinners than all the others in Galilee. In short there is no one-to-one correlation that can be drawn between sickness, natural disaster, human accident, human maliciousness on the one hand and sin on the other. And it is repeatedly said in the Bible that God judges sin.

What then should we say to those who are suffering from hurricane Katrina, or any of the other things that plague us quite unexpectedly? I would suggest that we be wise enough not to make snap judgments and glib pronouncements. Sometimes, but only sometimes, it is clear that human beings get themselves in a mess and are allowed to experience the natural consequences of their actions. Paul in Rom. 1 tells us that 'God's giving up the notorious sinners to their own wicked choices and the consequences of their actions' is indeed a form of the wrath of God against unrighteousness (see particularly Rom. 1.18-34, which even speaks of experiencing in one's own body the penalty for sexual immorality). But most of life's tragedy do not fall into this category, and hurricane Katrina certainly does not. Most events are a bit less transparent than that when it comes to connections between sin and judgment or between disasters and the Judge of all human beings.

elmers brother said...

Furthermore it was the people of California who voted on and passed the proposition that defined marriage as between a man and a woman that was subsequently thrown out by a judge

elmers brother said...

tmw...with respect

...but the Bereans are in short supply...and as I said, there is a lot of heresy mixed up in it!

one could point to heresies anywhere in this nation and unless you happen to know every single Christian this is anecdotal at best

so I'll ask...is God's so called judgement on California through the use of these wildfires based on the percentage of Christians or the number of Christians vs the total numbers, percentages in Iowa or anywhere else for that matter?

nanc said...

z - with all due respect, california has 11 times the population of arkansas.

as far as my being "glib" or flip, when someone points a finger at me for that, they need remember there are three more pointing back at them.

elbro - i have answered your comment at b.z. - i didn't know about it until today or i wouldn't have ignored it for so long.

ta!

elmers brother said...

I didn't think you were ignoring it..I just thought this was a continuation of the conversation

elmers brother said...

where was I flippant to you?

elmers brother said...

when someone points a finger at me for that, they need remember there are three more pointing back at them.


the next time I point a finger at California or anywhere else I'll remember

Z said...

nanc..I think the point is that there are a lot more Christians in California..sheer number.