There's a guy in downtown Cleveland and there is tons of evidence just found where he lives and where he works that, today, he's going to bring Cleveland and all its inhabitants DOWN. He's got plans outlining the whole thing which were found hours earlier and there's little doubt he's going to do exactly what those plans say he's going to do. If successful, everybody in Cleveland will DIE. Suddenly, law enforcement has a bead on him as he's walking down a street thinking he's not being followed. This is someone THEY KNOW is about to do explode bombs or release toxins within hours. And
THERE HE IS. That is absolutely the guy, no doubt about it.
SO.............would you authorize that drone up in the air to put him out NOW? With no warrant, no arrest, no trial? If it would save Cleveland?
HOLDER SAYS OKAY. How about YOU?
This is serious...not something that can wait. He must be stopped...............so?
z
(I didn't realize Cleveland is such a handsome city, by the way)
SO.............would you authorize that drone up in the air to put him out NOW? With no warrant, no arrest, no trial? If it would save Cleveland?
53 comments:
Is it ever acceptable to suspend Posse Comitatus? The military is a last resort, not a first responder.
This is not something to be taken lightly.
Too many negative permutations to list...way too many.
Andie
"...would you authorize that drone up in the air to put him out NOW? With no warrant, no arrest, no trial? If it would save Cleveland?"
The answer to that question depends on the price one places on the rule of law...the basis on which a Constitutional republic is built.
If the rule of law is sacrosanct, then he must be afforded due process by authorities. The criteria is not "little doubt," but "beyond a shadow of a doubt." That's for a court of law to decide.
If not, then nothing else matters. Go ahead and take him out.
Eric Holder has never cared about the rule of law. Neither has any other member of the Obamaites.
If they can find him with a drone, they can get local LEO on him and with less colateral damage.
NYC cops would shoot everyone around him though.
Drones may be appropriate overseas, because of lack of ground presence.
But not CONUS.
Eric Holder should be our Defense Secretary, NOT out Attorney General. Evidently, he has the two positions confused.
Where'a Judge Dredd when you need him
Where'a Judge Dredd when you need him
"Suddenly, law enforcement has a bead on him as he's walking down a street thinking he's not being followed."
It would seem to me that he could be apprehended or "taken-out" in a more conventional way. If his plan is, somehow, activated at this point it may not matter. While I think more information is needed in this case, I'm against use of "drones" being used in this manner, in general. However, if absolutely and unequivocally the use of a "drone" would save as many as hundereds of thousands of lives, common sense must prevail over idealism.
Law enforcement has rules, procedures, legal oversight. The drone is a weapon of war, a final solution. For the latter to be considered as a reasonable option by an AG should be raising alarms throughout the country.
How can civil rights, even human rights, address a drone attack? Fait accompli anyone?
~ Will
Z - If he's walking down the street and they know it's him - then why do they need the drone.
Why don't they just nab him.
I don't get it. I must be missing someething in this story. It wouldn't be the first time. : ]
Not this time Sue. See my comment.
You mean to say that the government can either launch a drone, or get a warrant, but not both? We're in deeper trouble than I thought.
all good input, thanks.
I have mixed feelings because I do feel that there could be a time when only a drone would hit someone and that Cleveland's worth it...
But, obviously, probably 99.9% of situations could be handled on the ground by LEO, as Ed says.
SO...why is this being proposed by this WH and what do you think would have happened had Bush even suggested it? :-)
Ge, Mr. Holder would you have done in the days before there were drones? Yes, Mr. Holder. That's a good idea and it would be within the rule of law.
"what do you think would have happened had Bush even suggested it?"
I think that we would never hear the end of what a: barbaric, imoral, illegal, unconstitutional,untoward...........miscarriage of Executive power that "cowboy" proposed!
Hmmmm, Cleveland you say? Not Chicago?
Cleveland. That's a toughie, let me ponder on it some.
Get this tidbit that just came in...
Holder has the moxie to recommend that the pols stop illegal GUN TRAFFICKING!!!
The mutt had to be smirking when he dared to suggest this. How about we start with him and his band of ATF criminals that managed to escape prosecution for doing just that?
The freaking nerve of this POS.
But seriously, since we are talking about wild eyed hypotheticals, let's say Obama offed the potential 'Butcher of Cleveland.'
He's toast. And 24 people around him, too. Mucho collateral damage from a single Sidewinder missile launched from Obama's killer drone.
And Cleveland is safe.....not so fast, there, Hop Sing: The Butcher of Cleveland had wired a remote trigger with a timer somewhere in Toledo, set to wipe Cleveland off the map at 5PM today. Obama offed the guy at noon.
And now nobody can save Cleveland now. The entire town of Toledo can't be searched in only 5 hours.
Had we simply arrested the guy, since we had this mountain of evidence and, like Sue Hanes noted, knew exactly where the Butcher was, we would have been able to extract from him through enhanced interrogation the location of the remote detonation trigger and saved Cleveland. Oh, that's right. Obama doesn't do that. Fine, let's then assume that The Butcher of Cleveland just fesses up and spills his guts. Why not, the rest of this hypothetical is just as stupid.
In the end, Cleveland is saved because we DIDN'T blow him away with a drone. That, of course, is assuming Cleveland is worth all of that trouble in saving, but that is a matter of another post.
Where's the drone based?
We giving that stuff to the local gendarmes?
See, they start depending on this military level stuff and these fascist stiffs forget how to make a simple low profile arrest.
Anyone here ever hear of Elliot Ness?
There is this mindset, “What good are nuclear weapons if you aren’t going to use them?” Apply this to all this gorgeous technology and we can see how Janet Napolitano (or any other half-baked twit) itches to use their new toys.
Wake up, America. DHS has already used drones against some hapless sap in the Dakotas over a property issue: cows. The court upheld the notion that no one has the right of privacy in their own back yard. So if cows can overturn the bill of rights, do you think a threat to some pro-Obama crap hole will detour these fascist bastards from seizing the day?
So I advise everyone to run out and support the next lackluster politician for all the wrong reasons: skin color, looks, perceived ability to speak in Elizabethan sentences … and by all means, let’s pay more attention to his wife’s fashion and the candidates religion more than we do his actual political history.
Jack Whyte; you convinced me.
NO DRONES ON AMERICAN SOIL.
But, as you say, it's too late. A commercial pilot apparently spotted one yesterday, too. I'm surprised the gov't let that information out.
This bunch is getting to be worse than a dictator. Holder is contemptible.
FT..good point!
Ducky, it's your fascist folks just showing true socialist colors. Get used to it.
Fredd, you cracked me up!
And yes...the thing we LOSE is enhanced interrogation. That's a huge liability for Obama's thugs murdering in the Middle East, too...but they don't believe there IS a terror problem and they don't torture for it, anyway, so why capture them?
They're probably only drone/killing off Benghazi survivors to keep them quiet, anyway.
Imp; this WH is nothing BUT irony and hypocrisy and LIES.
I HAVE AN APOLOGY TO MAKE, BY THE WAY, FOLKS.
REMEMBER WHEN SOME OF YOU BLOGGED A VIDEO OF MICHELLE OBAMA WHISPERING TO THE HUSBAND AT SOME PATRIOTIC EVENT? You and others said that a knowledge of lip reading showed that she said "all this for a FLAG?" and he disdainfully nodded in agreement...?
I happened on that video last night while researching something else....and that is exactly what she said. I'd not thought so originally, but it's quite clear.
That's so chilling I can't allow myself to think about it...because that extrapolates to so much...and in our first family?! my GOD
Make a deal with him - tell him to move to Detroit and he can bring donw that city.
The "hut hut" boys on Michael's PD would LOVE to have a Drone of their very own!
Andie
Z, the reason Eric Holders legal opinion is coming out now is because it was requested by US Senator Rand Paul.
He did not desire to give what in essence becomes the legal opinion of the US Government, but in order to expedite a confirmation hearing, Sen Paul demanded it.
As you say, and as did Holder, he was looking at the .01% option, however, many focused elsewhere.
My life is not a .01% "option" for the president, or any other government ahole.
Infidel! THAT is HILARIOUS! GOOD CALL!
Dave, yes...and it's a good thing we know. .01% might be too large a percent. The permission, or even the opinion to take down an American on our soil is troubling no matter what percentage.
Paul was so right.
Sure took them a while for Holder to respond.
They are still trying to get information from Benghazi survivors, who Congress is denied contact with so far.
Andie,...whose?
Thersites..exactly.
Did you know the students at MIT can hack a Drone in less than an hour?
If we give up our freedom for security, we've already lost.
This administration could tell you anything about a person, but, that doesn't make it so!
Let's say that there are groups of people like the tea party for instance, and the govt. sees them as troublemakers, or worse. Does that mean they can attack them?
Where would this end? I say, no govt. has the right to blatantly kill someone with a drone, just because the govt. want's them gone.
Never forget what happened to the Jewish people in Germany simply because they were Jews! Were they a threat? No, but they evidently were perceived to be an enemy of the state and unwanted there.
Well, any people could be presented that way by the leaders of a country, simply out of hatred for them.
I'm sure an excuse for governmental murder could be made up to justify a terrible act, just to instill fear into the population as a whole! That's what this is all about.
Divine...that's reassuring, huh?!
America, the once great country, is being hacked by China and college kids can hack drones?
And we do NOTHING to stand up for ourselves against this stuff that most of us ever hear.....we just keep apologizing and being wimps, cutting our military, admitting Iran's got nukes (Thanks, Mr Kerry, conservatives knew this for a long time), etc etc.
What the HECK happened? When libs take over and don't love their country, a country has ENORMOUS problems. And WHAT in Obama's past would even remotely lend itself to loving America? And who in his past? ridiculous.
Pris, I'm glad I blogged this.
I'm 100% convinced that we don't NEED drones over America; that law enforcement can pick up anybody a drone would hit.
So, who in the media's going to alert America to THAT little unpleasant fact for Obama-Holder-lovin' lefties?
#@($*&@(*&#
Wingnuts always want to bring a nuke to a knife fight. You call a cop. Done!
Did you know the students at MIT can hack a Drone in less than an hour?
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Absolutely the pure stinky cheese.
This would be interesting if you could back it up.
Liberalmann...please read SOMETHING.
It's the Obama lefties intent on the drones...talk about bringing a nuke to a knife fight :-)
As all these good commenters have suggested, why bring drones when you can arrest, interrogate (maybe get some information that WOULD save Cleveland?) and bring to trial if necessary?
What is WITH liberals that they seem against the rule of law? These are the same nuts who want to make a law for EVERYTHING but then don't want to live by the ones they don't like. man.
Suddenly, you are into calling a cop? That beasty little thing you've probably called a 'pig' all your idiotic liberal life?
You just keep cracking me up. Thanks!
http://www.wltx.com/news/national/article/192888/142/Students-Hack-Drone-Aircraft
Ducky....Here's your Roquefort.
You Google, I can't do ALL the work for you :-)
"A civilian drone aircraft was "hijacked" by Prof. Todd Humphreys and his graduate students at the University of Texas at Austin. They were able to hack into the drone's GPS signals."
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Civilian.
Pitch till you win, z.
That scenario is pretty much impossible, as it takes quite a lot to ill everyone in a city, (reference WWII) but it's a valid question for what you're going after.
Well, we have the FISA court. Which is supposed to be an independent body that reviews the actions taken when there simply isn't time to do due process prior to taking the action.
And terrorism activity fits that profile.
So yea, drone attack and take him out. FISA reviews and the cards are laid out. If it was improper and someone screwed up the intelligence on the guy, there should be consequences.
Theoretically. obama wouldn't strong arm the FISA court right?
Anyway, remember the young guy, who I think was from Brazil, right after the subway bombings in England, who, with a backpack on jumped a trunstile and ran to the train ignoring commands to stop?
They caught up with him at the train, put him down and shot him in the head a few times. You have to be cognizant of what's going on around you and what the context of current events are. There was no way that kid was going to or should have survived. Those backpack bombs usually go off with a button push. How many could he have killed if he really was a bad guy.
Life can be tough for the stupid or simply the totally unaware. Perfection is not possible.
There is a 2 word cliche for that. And it will never stop.
Frankly, after 9-11 I'd have stopped wearing backpacks in urban situations.
;-) I was in Cleveland35 years ago. Maybe it's changed, but I doubt it. It's a libtard bastion.
When I was there, it was very class oriented. You had Shaker Heights (the rich) and you had the rest of Cleveland that was pretty unattractive. The only place I've been that was worse was Newark NJ, though I'm sure there are many places worse than Cleveland.
Anyway, to the Clevelanites, stop voting Dem would you? God, you put Kucinich in time and time again. Good God folks!
http://onmybreak.wordpress.com/2012/06/28/college-students-hack-government-drone/
Sorry, Ducky....I win. The country loses.
Kid, the pictures on Google of Cleveland were beautiful. Like NEWARK? Though I'm hoping there are nice parts of Newark, too?!!
They may have done a lot with the place in 35 years.. Though pictures of Pittsburgh are beautiful too and I grew up there and have been there recently to know those pics don't really represent the city.
Anyway, Newark? No, there are no nice areas of Newark. None.
SO.............would you authorize that drone up in the air to put him out NOW? With no warrant, no arrest, no trial? If it would save Cleveland?
No.
We've recently had an elderly Hispanic female newspaper delivery driver and six other people shot at by police officers looking for a large black man they all had photographs of.
We've recently had a man and his dog shot in their own home by a police raid that accidently went to the wrong address.
And if all that doesn't convince you, recall that in the Clinton years, a Chinese diplomatic outpost was hit by precision guided bombs that were supposed to be hitting an empty lot "according to the maps."
If you have enough intel to target someone with a drone, you have enough intel to send men on the ground after them.
"If you have enough intel to target someone with a drone, you have enough intel to send men on the ground after them."
Beamish, this can be the ONLY way of looking at it.
Why is Obama, the big "peace/love/dove" guy who'd be SCREEECHING if Bush did this, getting Holder out there suggesting a president can kill anybody with a drone based on what he knows?
Why is Obama, the big "peace/love/dove" guy who'd be SCREEECHING if Bush did this, getting Holder out there suggesting a president can kill anybody with a drone based on what he knows?
Me and my brothers used to kick the chicken coop and take bets on which one would run out first.
The question that should be asked is "What do you do the day after a drone strike is conducted against an American citizen on American soil?"
OFF TOPIC:
Z,
I attempted to send you this, privately, but steped into some cyber, 'cow pie'. I have no patience for BS, so here it is:
Z,
OK, I went to "Happy Hour" again; My Bad! Anyway the subject came up and that is, just exactly, who would we pick to be the next candidate for POUTS? We couldn't come up with a consensus. So, I said that I would turn this over to your premier site for some good debate. I'd love to see what some have to say. Keep up the good work!
JMB
JonBerg: bergconect@q.com
Thanks, JonBerg! Maybe I'll blog that soon; it would be a good question to ask!
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/03/07/After-Holder-Caves-Senate-Moves-Forward-with-Brennan-Nomination
Lol, You gotta just love Republicans continuing to eat their own:
Paul’s Drone Filibuster Sparks GOP Civil War
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2013/03/rand-paul-filibuster-gop-civil-war.php?ref=fpa
Hey, EVERYBODY!
This is how unprofessional, scared, conniving and awful Holder is!!
He just wrote this to Rand Paul:
It has come to my attention that you have now asked an additional question: “Does the President have the authority to use a weaponized drone to kill an American not engaged in combat on American soil?” The answer to that question is no.
Sincerely,
Eric H. Holder, Jr.
An ADDITIONAL Question?
The Republicans are smart; they fight and argue things out amongst themselves to make sure they share our huge tent, unlike the one-minded democrats, but this is NUTS. Rand Paul won. And, get this; The media got the letter first :-)
Obama splits the GOP once again and makes them look like fools.
Libman, I guess you haven't seen that Obama's poll numbers have gone down from 52% approval to 46%!
But, you keep stating what we expect from you, which is not anything new and boring as hell.
Republicans at least are not afraid to disagree with each other, and that's called freedom to disagree.
Too bad you are not free to do so.
Another scenario....the President gets credible information and multiple warnings that a terrorist attack is imminent in the US.
He ignores it and lets the towers fall.
They didn't need no stinking warrants, AT Ruby Ridge, OR, Waco--They Used Tanks and Military Helicopters, cause Koresh was ready for them, and knew how to expose things the Shadow Gov did not want him to say.
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