Monday, June 7, 2010

Topless Family fun?

I just heard a television travel hostess, Laura McKenzie, talking about the Moulin Rouge in Paris. She said "And, yes, it's topless, but it's a HEALTHY TOPLESS, you can bring the whole FAMILY!" with a little grin.
Tell me, if you knew a French Review was topless but not, let's say, gratuitous (or intimate)?....Would you take a family of kids in who were elementary school or high school age?
I'm curious...........thanks!
z

71 comments:

beamish said...
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beamish said...

Sorry about the repeated posts. I have no idea why Glogger's software engineers can't figure out 1992-era internet publishing technology. Everytime they "update" Blogger with some new useless feature, they mess something else up.

Anyway, sorry about the wave of posts. I deleted the extras. You can perma-delete them on your end to clean up.

Tom said...

Parading down the streets of Maine and Vermont towns these days, topless and demanding equal rights - subjecting folk's youngsters to this (mis)behavior (and many of them moms themselves, hmm). The era of MTV-gone-wild is upon us big time, further eroding our new generations' values - but hey, isn't that what liberalism's all about anyway no standards of decency, modesty, chasteness, or concern for what other's may still hold dear (devil-may-care pov).

Bloviating Zeppelin said...

I don't know, if I were an 11-year-old boy again, I'd WAY dig it.

BZ

Anonymous said...

Europeans and Asians have a completely different take on nudity than do Americans. If we were discussing this as Europeans, then I suppose the answer to your question would depend on whether the revue employed female nudity as risqué entertainment; I don’t believe Europeans would consider the mere exposure of female breasts as sexually suggestive. On the other hand, if the topless dance included sexually suggestive or explicit behaviors, then a reasonable person would have to say the presence of youngsters was inappropriate.

Sam

Ducky's here said...

No Go Celts headline?

Leslie said...

As if children today are not over sexualized as it is...? Anyone who agrees that it is okay has no room to complain when they then see little 12 year old girls running around pregnant. Can we not let children enjoy their childhood? Leave adult things to the adults.

Misfit410 said...

I don't want to get too personal here, but I am speaking from personal experience with my own life. I feel that America is the most backwards on this subject, there is a huge difference between sex and nudity, and I feel us drawing no lines, and failing to grasp that is what breeds some of the biggest perverts the world has ever known.

If we treated Nudity as though it were what it should be, people without clothes, nothing dirty, nothing foul, nothing to be shocked over, you are not going to send young boys into a quest to find out what the big deal is all about. Children rebel against rules put on them, this is the natural order of things.. I strongly believe boys are constantly told that seeing a naked women is evil and wrong, and going to run right out and find a way to see one to find out why. Rather than be able to do this at a tasteful broadway show in a classy way, they will dig up a Hustler magazine and that's when the line between nudity and pornography gets crossed, they learn far more than they are ready for and it makes some messed up adults.

Craig and Heather said...

I was a "bottle baby" so hey hey hey,

*snort*

there is a huge difference between sex and nudity...failing to grasp that is what breeds some of the biggest perverts the world has ever known.

Perhaps you're right.

Let's all run around naked and see if that reverses the rising tide of sexually perverse behavior in our country.


Children rebel against rules put on them, this is the natural order of things..

Children rebel because we are all related to Adam.

Incidentally, Adam felt shame over his nakedness before the Lord after he disobeyed. And God provided covering.

In westernized civilization, (which historically has been exposed to Biblical standards of right and wrong), increased public acceptance of nudity is simply a visible indication of the fact that people in general have developed callousness toward sin and rebellion toward God.

H

Craig and Heather said...

Forgot to address the OP.

Perhaps by "healthy", she wasn't really referencing psychological/ethical well-being of individuals, but rather eco-friendliness of the performer's costumes?

You know--"This is incredibly healthy for our eco-system because we've avoided the consumption of x barrels of oil and x acres of rain forest by not producing the upper half of these women's costumes"

Eventually, they could be wearing healthy, agriculturally-sustainable banana-leaf loin cloths...

H

Ducky's here said...

I don't understand conservative America's hangup with the human body.
Don't take the kids to Florence. Nudes all over the place.
One by Michaelangelo was well reviewed.

FrogBurger said...

Not a fan of Moulin Rouge myself. Kinda vulgar. Didn't like my mom's friend being topless with us as kid. Was kinda weird.

I don't understand conservative America's hangup with the human body.

Well you understand the one that Muslims have with their women per the recent post on that.

So another contradiction Mr Kwaky?

Craig and Heather said...

I don't understand conservative America's hangup with the human body.

There seem to be a lot of things you don't understand, Ducky.

My guess is that it's because you're reading your Bible with the light turned off. :(

But that's just a guess.

H

Z said...

Beamish, they won't perma-delete for some reason. I"ve tried a few times and I get some ERROR PAGE. No biggie.
I so see what you mean about seeing your ex-girlfriend and her family topless in pictures...WAY more than necessary...!! How funny that she'd even show them to anybody!

Tom, this is so true "no standards of decency, modesty, chasteness, or concern for what other's may still hold dear (devil-may-care pov)." Liberalism looks at decency as censorship...

Sam, that's why I wrote in my post "not gratuitous or intimate"...you're right. I've lived in Europe and you're right about topless beaches,and even some topless sunning outside office buildings if they're near a park and trees, etc., but I'm still thinking I can't see a family of five from Germany or France all go to a topless dance revue...but, yes, it's more 'open' there...
Some Americans jump on that as a lack of morality but this has never shown to contribute to more depravity or rape, etc.....Americans don't seem to understand that the European mindset isn't OURS and so it's just DIFFERENT THERE, not better, not worse, and that doesn't work here.

BZ: that really cracked me up!!

Linda, I'm with you...and it's WAY sexier in the bedroom when people haven't seen nudity throughout their day in ads, etc etc, right? :-)

Ducky..I'm a Laker's Fan. When you start your blog, you can GO CELTICS all you want! Funny and kind of sad that you'd gloat this way...I'd written a comment to you congratulating the Celtics on, I think , the post below, last night after the game.

Misfit, I don't disagree with you on what you said but, as I said above, having LIVED in societies where nudity is more acceptable, I see it's a healthier mindset that we just don't have here and so yes, it has made it a kind of forbidden fruit but it won't probably change.
Except, when you say "to send young boys into a quest to find out what the big deal is all about.", I think those days are really OVER. All they have to do is ask a twelve year old to see something and they seem to be getting even more than a 'see' these days.
When America does any nudity, it's usually mixed with sensationalism, sex, etc......MTV, overt footage in movies, spoken innuendos in films, etc.......they can't have nudity without LEERING NUDITY, you know? I'm rambling here and am not sure how to explain it...

Leslie, you're so right...there is, however, an interesting juxtaposition between Europeans and American kids....Europeans don't make such a 'big thing' out of nudity because they're USED TO IT somehow...Here, not at all...and, as I said above, we can't seem to have nudity without sexualizing it in negative ways.

Heather, I agree. There's almost a contrived, purposeful push to 'animalize' the human body and sex...no difference between a dog, a cat, or a person...
Remember when women suddenly wanted to breast feed in public and so many, including men, said "Hey, not so fast...not REALLY interested in seeing that.." but the complainers were demonized as NOT ACCEPTING A NATURAL ACT. as if they were against the breast feeding of babies! Since when does every NATURAL ACT have to be done in public?
And then we have women who go around topless because MEN DO and WOMEN ARE EQUAL, AFTER ALL! As if they don't see the difference? As if a return to FEMININITY and MODESTY is CENSORSHIP, too?
Then we have famous photos of Europeans by the thousands, naked on bicycles and if we say "Man, that's weird", we're CENSORING!??

The Left says IT'S ALLOWED TO DO ANYTHING WE WANT BUT ANYBODY WHO FEELS UNCOMFORTABLE HAS HANG-UPS AND ANYBODY TRYING TO STOP US FROM DOING WHAT WE FEEL IS RIGHT IS TRYING TO CENSOR US.

And, those who disagree must be squashed, called old-fashioned, censorial, too religious, inhibiting FREEDOM! :-)

Our poor kids.

Z said...

FB, this is very interesting "Not a fan of Moulin Rouge myself. Kinda vulgar. Didn't like my mom's friend being topless with us as kid. Was kinda weird."
I must say I'm surprised to read the friend's toplessness seemed weird because I do know that, at least in Germany, nudity is pretty standard behavior...at least toplessness.
Actually, I'm kind of pleased to hear you say that because I don't like to think any kid seeing his mother's friend's breasts finds that 'no big deal'!

Ducky, again you generalize...not taking kids to Florence because there are too many nudes? Don't be ridiculous. If that were the case, Italians would be covering them up to regain the tourism bucks!! :-)

Heather...it only took you a few days on my blog and YOU GOT IT: "My guess is that it's because you're reading your Bible with the light turned off. :( "

Craig and Heather said...

Then we have famous photos of Europeans by the thousands, naked on bicycles

Saddle-sores, anyone?

H

Z said...

H, I hope so :-)

Craig and Heather said...

Heather...it only took you a few days on my blog and YOU GOT IT: "

That is the thing that's sad to me, Z.

I understand where the "leftist" rhetoric is coming from. The communistic fantasies, elevation of authoritative govt and delusion that Jesus came to give man the tools he needs to save himself would eventually disappear if Ducky could see what scripture is really saying.

H

Ducky's here said...

Sorry Heather, we commies are here to stay.

Just to make you feel even better, I teach a film course to High Schoolers. You can only imagine the indoctrination.

Craig and Heather said...

The Left says IT'S ALLOWED TO DO ANYTHING WE WANT BUT ANYBODY WHO FEELS UNCOMFORTABLE HAS HANG-UPS AND ANYBODY TRYING TO STOP US FROM DOING WHAT WE FEEL IS RIGHT IS TRYING TO CENSOR US.

Of course it says this. Psalm 2 explains it perfectly.

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.


'Course, the very next verse says God laughs derisively at them. But He offers fair warning to all at the end by saying "kiss the Son--lest you perish from the Way"

H

Craig and Heather said...

Sorry Heather, we commies are here to stay.

Just to make you feel even better, I teach a film course to High Schoolers. You can only imagine the indoctrination.


I never said you can't live here.

I said you're wrong.

Craig and Heather said...

Oh, I guess I also said being wrong comes with a hefty price tag. And that it would be a good idea to not be wrong.

H

Z said...

"Oh, I guess I also said being wrong comes with a hefty price tag. And that it would be a good idea to not be wrong."
Amen.
A REAL good idea.

Ducky, I have to admit I think your politics would seep into the discussions and, of course, probably influence the films you show, but I wouldn't think you'd blatantly indoctrinate. I like to think you have some conscience and, though an avowed Socialist, have lived here long enough to know that all sides should be represented on any subject. You know, the way Conservatives feel.

Unlike liberals who like to use this mantra against us, Conservatives don't want indoctrination, they want to teach kids how to THINK, AFTER they've been given the tools and are old enough to discern for themselves. Yes, Ducky, even on Creationism, Evolution, Abortion and, (gasp!) gay marriage.

Z said...

Beamish, just for computer-info, I had to delete one of my self-generated comments and it deleted and removed completely..

FrogBurger said...

At least in America you have the possibility to indoctrinate. In the system Ducky wants to establish, this wouldn't be possible to indoctrinate people to capitalism.

Z said...

FB....you'd think that logic would sink in and affect any true thinker, wouldn't you?
But, then, we have liberal gays standing up for islam, as if they'd survive if continued to thrive in the West.

FrogBurger said...

I hope Ducky mentions in his class that the Western open, capitalistic society is the one that offered the cinema to us and the huge variety of movies. Without a big marketplace and a truly democratic society (i.e. not the democracy of the GDR), there's no room for art to grow. I hope he teaches that.

Craig and Heather said...

But, then, we have liberal gays standing up for islam, as if they'd survive if continued to thrive in the West.

Neither ideology is inspired by the God of Life.

Satan doesn't care which method people use destroy each other.

H

Ducky's here said...

Well, z, I always avoid films that contain nudity or are sexually charged. I think there are much more important topics to deal with.

We ended the season with two films with no dialog in order to focus on cinema as a visual medium.

Chantal Akerman's "From the East" They did a great job dissecting the incredible tracking shot through Gorky Square.

Tsai Ming-liang's "Goodby Dragon Inn" there were a couple of very good papers on the future of movie theaters beyond the megaplex. Not very optimistic unfortunately.


I wish the new full length restoration of Lang's "Metropolis" had been available. With employment in the film industry really picking up in Mass a lot of the kids are looking there for careers. They realize the industry requires solid math, science and English skills so I have been quite happy with its success.

Z said...

Ducky, the slow death of small theaters is horrible...it's happening here, too, my favorite theaters are gone and there IS a difference, in my opinion between parking in a huge parking complex on the 4th floor above, then taking escalators to the theater with hundreds of people, glitzy doors, etc etc...........and parking on the street, sauntering up to the old Deco building with 20 people really interested in seeing the film and not just 'date night' kind of entertainment...and sitting on the old plush seats...

I'd imagine examining films with no dialogue frees them up to discuss aspects of the film one might not notice otherwise..good one.
You're not teaching Science, English and math, are you?

Z said...

heather..."Satan doesn't care which method people use destroy each other."
good way of putting it, particularly in light of what I'd said..

Ducky's here said...

You're not teaching Science, English and math, are you?

-----------------------

No, but I will take an opportunity to bring in geometry when discussing lighting, for instance. Bring in optics when discussing focal lengths.

Catch their interest first though.

FrogBurger said...

Metropolis is a delight.

Z said...

You sound like a good teacher, Ducky.....just stick to FILM and its 'environs'! :-)

Ducky's here said...

Yeah, it certainly it, Froggy. Even with the new found footage it's still kid of a narrative mess but that hardly matters.

Instructive example of film as primarily a visual experience.

Faith said...

I agree with Heather. The acceptance of nudity is just another sign of the erosion of our Christian heritage. I'd also add though that most people go around in stages of undress anyway these days that our formerly Christian society would not have permitted, and I bet everyone here would defend most of it, from bathing suits to cleavage to tight pants etc. Well, you know, hot weather and all. That didn't seem to bother them back when they covered from chin to toe and covered their heads too -- which is arguably required in the Bible. Now you can all blast me.

Z said...

Faith, you mean the HEAD covering, not the whole body covering as your statement seems to indicate, right?

Faith said...

Yes I was referring to the head covering as what I believe is required by the Bible, but there's an argument to be made for the old-fashioned form of coverup of the whole body too based on scripture.

Not that I desire it personally you understand. I'm sitting here in a T shirt and can't get cool enough myself, and even a bandana on the head adds to the heat, but that is how I read the Bible -- both the head covering and a lot more modesty in general than anybody practices any more. Lots of changes from the Biblical standard have been made in the last hundred years that people just accept without thinking.

Anonymous said...

I would not take young children to a show like this. It's an adult presentation, and while it's probably not done in a provocative way, children do not have to experience it.

It's adult entertainment, and children are not merely small people. They're children.

Having said that, we have a beautiful painting of a nude in our home. It wouldn't occur to me to hide it away. It's art.

This has always been the case in our home. I have a large book of Michaelangelo's sculptures and paintings which include nudity as well. I always encouraged my children to see these and to appreciate artistic genius. They are the epitome of beauty.

A floor show of live nude or topless bodies performing isn't the same thing, neither is a nude beach.

It's not art to me, in the classic sense of the word. As I said, it's adult entertainment.


Pris

Z said...

Faith, I'd like to know the scripture for the full body cover...in the OT, I guess?

Pris, you're right..it is adult entertainment, and adult it should stay!

Ducky's here said...

I hope Ducky mentions in his class that the Western open, capitalistic society is the one that offered the cinema to us and the huge variety of movies.

-------------

Yeah Froggy, Eisenstein, Dovzhenko, Barnet, Vertov, Bauer, Pudovkin all working in the Soviet Union. I suppose montage and the Kuleshov effect were developed in Hollywood? Tough break Froggy, some of the most basic techniques of the current action genre are Russian. Of course Russian art under Lenin was quite fertile. Go take a lesson on Suprematicism.

Western? Mizoguchi, Shimuzu, Yamanaka, Ozu, Naruse, Tasaka ... they weren't remaking Western film, Frog. Not that Western film didn't influence the Japanese cinema, take the conversation between Ford and Kurosawa.

You fail to mention that many of the early European film industries were subsidized, like Sweden's. In fact Hollywood simply hired away most of the Swedish film industry in the early days. Garbo was already a star when she came to American film.

On the subject of German film, Kluge's "Yesterday Girl" and "Diary of a Domestic Slave" have been released on DVD, check them out.

Are you interested in the East German cinema? I can put you in touch with some folks at the University of Massachusetts who manage the DEFA archives. "Born in '45" is especially good. Proof they were somehow paying close attention to the French New Wave.

Anyway, you're wrong Frog and I didn't even get to Chines cinema of the 30's or Mexico or India (was most of Satyajit Ray's work a comment on Nehru? Any opinion?).

Was "An Andalusian Dog" a product of Western capitalism?

Big world Froggy, don't limit yourself so. And you'd be surprised how low Hollywood rates on the film scale. They do what capitalism does so well, turn out least common denominator "product".

Variety? Maybe in the silent era or the 30's or the 60's but now? Just the same action picture over and over, vulgar teenage comedies and the chick flic. It's really sad how the market destroys art.

Faith said...

There isn't explicit scripture about covering up in the Bible, though it is generally assumed under modest dress in 1 Timothy 2:9: In like manner, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel and one commentator (Gill I think) said the word for "apparel" refers to a garment that reaches the feet. That passage is more about ostentation than covering up though.

Modesty was understood in Christian countries, however, until the last century, to require complete covering up, (though worldly fashions dropped the neckline from time to time and that sort of thing. It's always worldly influences that undo it and the church follows along like a bunch of sheep.) Women covered completely in Europe since Bible times and it was also the case in any society of the Middle East and Mediterranean area. So there may have been no need to mention it, it was simply understood. Roman and Greek men went around in various conditions of undress, short togas or total nudity in the case of Greek athletes, but women never showed their legs in ANY century in the West in any illustration I could find when I was researching all this.

I noticed a while back a troupe of Chinese acrobats wearing loose satin costumes that covered them from neck to ankle and I thought that very attractive and that it showed that athletes don't need to appear as naked as they do in the Olympics.

We take it all for granted to such an extent that maybe there's an argument that since we aren't affected by it there's no real problem with it. I wonder though.

Faith said...

I personally think nudity in art is a silly excuse, a conceit if you will.

Z said...

Ducky, you just plain HATE ANYTHING AMERICAN! I'm giggling my head off here....everybody in the world knows about the huge strides and inventions in film from America but you mention Japanese and the Russians as if America's done NOTHING! What a lonely, difficult world you live in...how can you stand to live here? I'm serious.

Faith, some women could certainly dress much more modestly these last fifty years or so, that's for sure.

Faith said...

I started a blog to get into this issue of modesty in dress quite a while ago and haven't pursued it for some reason that's not even clear to me. My blogs are mostly a way for me to work out my own thoughts rather than engage others in dialogue, but sometimes I need dialogue to figure out what I think.

I do have the impression that this subject isn't preached on much in churches and that church leaders are loath to impose a standard in such a personal area. But there isn't really clear scripture on it either, unlike the head covering where I think it's VERY clear that women are to cover our heads in church and yet a great many preachers utterly deny that's what it says. (1 Corinthians 11:2-16). I think they're cowed by feminism myself, to the point that they even bamboozle themselves about what the scripture says.

I so yearn for revival in the churches but I'm also aware that so many churches aren't even in a position to be revived as you have to have a minimum of obedience at least before we could have a genuine revival. Lots of counterfeit revivals have been happening for years now because of basic disobedience. The devil's very good at getting up his own version of revival.

I don't know where to rank modesty in dress on the scale of obedience issues that may interfere with hopes for revival anyway. There are many other issues that would need to be ranked higher.

Overall I think Christianity is in a pretty pathetic weak self-indulgent place these days, being led around by the nose by the culture or catering to it without even knowing it.

Z said...

Faith, good points...
I think I've told you that, at the Armenian Orthodox churches, the ladies walk in and, if they haven't a hat or veil of their own, take one from a table by the door...a small lace head veil that just covers the head, basically. Sad, because it's not taken as much as it used to be.

Catholics still wear mantillas...or at least they did until recently.

Protestant churches? NO WAY, but it makes me lonesome for the traditions of my upbringing.

Z said...

"Blogger Ducky's here said...

....everybody in the world knows about the huge strides and inventions in film from America but you mention Japanese and the Russians as if America's done NOTHING!

-------------------

No, what you object to, z, is my stating that America didn't do EVERYTHING. And they certainly didn't, far from it.

The studio system was well developed in France before it was established in America. We had a couple of early geniuses in Keaton and Griffith plus Chaplin if you don't count him as English.

We can take credit for the screwball comedy genre as well as noir although I think the French did it better. But you can't overlook Russia, Japan and France in the early years.

The world doesn't revolve around us. Especially art."


DUCKY, I've told you before you're not here to insult my guests at my blog. I deleted that part and don't want it back, thanks.

Re your comment,
When did I EVER say EVERYTHING American is perfect..or the art world revolves around us? When did I ever say that America invented ALL ASPECTS OF FILM? Why use that ridiculous strawman instead of addressing my comment, that America did SO MUCH, yet you wax on about other countries just to avoid acknowledgment...that's silly.

FrogBurger said...

Ducky, I won't fight you on cinema's history. Unlike you, I'm the first to admit that you know more than I do on the topic.

What I was trying to say is that an open capitalistic society is the best place for the art to flourish in full freedom.

I am amazed at how specific you can be when you know. But unlike you I have no problem admitting my ignorance in some areas.

I am intellectually honest.

Big difference.

But I still stand with my broad point. I've seen more creativity and a broader range of styles, choices in the US than in socialist France where government subsidies = control over which artists get the money.

So it's not because the Swedes get subsidies that they have more variety.

The marketplace of ideas and creations is better off when there's cash and buyers. Capitalism fosters this.

Finally you forgot to mention the Freres Lumieres. Pretty important. France was a lot more capitalistic then.

FrogBurger said...

Forgot to mention I wasn't ethnocentric. And maybe I wasn't specific enough in my statement. I meant capitalism was better, not just the West. So I included Japan and other countries in the mix as long as their society was more open than the socialist/communist ones.

Ducky any good movies coming from North Korea?

Ducky's here said...

North Korea? Not that I know of. Iran and Romania are hot though.

beamish said...

Z,

so see what you mean about seeing your ex-girlfriend and her family topless in pictures...WAY more than necessary...!! How funny that she'd even show them to anybody!

I'm not sure what was more odd - that the pictures were taken (all posed and smiling), that they were kept in an album, or that my ex showed me pictures of her sisters and her mother all topless posing with her on some French beach.

I think I'm more upset that I have less luck in a casino ;)

Joe said...

Misfit410 and others of his ilk: I have lived in France, and I can assure you that naked women arouse Frenchment as much or more as they do Americans.

That is natural. But being natural does not make something appropriate (although you might have trouble explaining that to rural Frenchmen). Going to the bathroom is natural, but going in a public place, whether in the countryside or downtown Paris, is inappropriate (not to mention unhealthy).

Is nudity dirty? No. Is it provocative? Yes. Is it appropriate for children? No.

If you can't figure that out on your own, then come see me and I will explain it to you, assuming that your IQ is greather than that of a slug.

Ducky's here said...

Faith, are you advocating for Muslim rules of modesty?

Craig and Heather said...

Faith, are you advocating for Muslim rules of modesty?

Have you considered that Islam twisted God's standard?

H

Z said...

Beamish, I see your point..VERY WEIRD.

Joe, I didn't know you lived in France!? You know I did....we should talk about that!! Best years of my life (ducking for cover now...gotta run!)

H...Islam is perfect and uncorrectable, Christianity's CALVINIST if it's not Catholic and all Calvinists are WRONG (sarcasm here) Just thought I'd beat Ducky to his response! :-)

Craig and Heather said...

H...Islam is perfect and uncorrectable, Christianity's CALVINIST if it's not Catholic and all Calvinists are WRONG (sarcasm here) Just thought I'd beat Ducky to his response! :-)

Ahhhh.

I don't expect Ducky to answer me, but couldn't resist asking.

So, he's a pro-Islamic Catholic communist leftist cinematic art instructor?

That's an ideological combination I'd not yet encountered.

Heather

Faith said...

Ducky asked:

Faith, are you advocating for Muslim rules of modesty?

And Heather answered:

Have you considered that Islam twisted God's standard?

Which is a neater version of what I would have ended up trying to say. Thanks! Yes, you can err by overdoing God's standards -- the Pharisees' error, as well as by ignoring them completely.

But I would elaborate a bit, which may get me into trouble as it often does:

Since studying 1 Cor 11:2-16 a few years ago I did get the uncomfortable feeling that one reason we are being subjected to the rise of Muslim influence in this country even after they attacked us, could be that they DO require women to cover their heads. All this increase in Muslim presence and influence in the last few years, starting with 9/11 is certainly part of God's judgment on this nation, and even though they twist God's standards they are a better model of His standards than Christians have been exhibiting and if we don't repent on a number of issues their oppressive tyrannical Sharia law could very well come to dominate in this country. Military solutions can't save us if we are under God's judgment. There was a time when even Presidents knew to call the nation to a time of prayer and repentance, but no more, even the churches have lost touch of where we have gone wrong and keep perpetuating the problems instead of bringing us to repentance.

Craig and Heather said...

Interesting thought, Faith.

You may not be too far afield of the truth, either. For the past 2 years, I've felt "judgment" is a main theme for American idolaters.


The passage from Deuteronomy 28 has been playing a loop in my mind.

Because you did not serve Jehovah your God with joyfulness and with gladness of heart for the abundance of all things;
therefore you shall serve your enemies which Jehovah shall send against you, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in the lack of all things. And he shall put a yoke of iron on your neck until he has destroyed you.
Jehovah shall bring a nation against you from far, from the end of the earth, as the eagle flies; a nation whose tongue you shall not understand,
a nation fierce of face who shall not regard the person of the old, nor show favor to the young.


I know America isn't Israel, but we serve the same God. Times may change. But He does not.

Heather

Faith said...

Thank you, Joe, for acknowledging what I didn't have the certainty to say: yes, nudity is arousing no matter how used to it we think we are in this country. Even if some of us are deadened to its effect there are others for whom it is still a very potent sexual stimulus and scripture DOES exhort us not to cause our brother -- or anyone for that matter -- to stumble (into sin). THAT is the biblical basis for a LOT more modesty than we have been practicing in this country for a century now.

Perhaps the pre-20th century standard of modest dress back to the Bible was excessive, OK, but we'd be better off even with something like that than with the half naked way we dress now.

And since I just linked the rejection of the biblical standard of the head covering for women to the possibility of God's judgment on the nation, I have to include general modesty in that scenario. We have a LOT in this nation we need to repent of if we want to restore the nation to its former sanity and prosperity and safety.

This is a much bigger issue than topless entertainers but they couldn't ever have begun to exist either if we hadn't abandoned our biblical standards of modesty already.

Faith said...

I totally agree, Heather. Yes, we are not ancient Israel, bot I don't think God intended His law just for them but for all nations, even if perhaps He judged them the more harshly because they were specifically given His law.

But America also has a particularly blessed past based on biblical foundations and that may very well subject US to harsh judgment for our violations of them too.

Yes, the blessings and cursings in Deuteronomy and Leviticus SHOULD be applied to us. Yes, we open ourselves to losing military battles, to being subjected to invasion, to economic disasters, for disobedience.

I'm SO glad to have someone here who sees this too!

Ducky's here said...

So, he's a pro-Islamic Catholic communist leftist cinematic art instructor?

-------------

democratic socialist not communist.

It is amazing how much of Muslim culture has its origins in the Abrahamic tradition. Isn't it.

Faith said...

It is amazing how much of Muslim culture has its origins in the Abrahamic tradition. Isn't it.

If you are referring to the women's covering their heads as evidence of this, or general modesty, I'd point out to you that there are many tribal and nonChristian nations where the women have also traditionally covered their heads and where modesty, especially female modesty, is enforced. I always look for head coverings now whenever I see a documentary about some foreign culture and I often see the older women with their heads covered, even with a disheveled collection of fabric simply tied on, and interesting headdresses on some.

The New Testament spells it out (interestingly the Old Testament does not, though orthodox Jewish women also cover their heads) but this is what is known as a "creation ordinance" that was recognized by ALL peoples originally and still is practiced by some, without a written scripture to prod them to do it. It's only our modern "enlightened" mentality that has convinced more and more to abandon God's ordinances -- even His church, which above all other groups should know better.

Craig and Heather said...

democratic socialist not communist.

oops. My bad.

Still trying to figure out your thought process.

It is amazing how much of Muslim culture has its origins in the Abrahamic tradition. Isn't it.

Yes. It's quite interesting.
Although, not too surprising, considering Mohammed's interest in Judaism and Christianity and the definite possibility of Ishmaelite descendancy of many Arabs.

The blessing God pronounced over Ishmael fascinates me, too.

The fact that Mohammed wanted to lead his people away from idolatry is commendable. Unfortunately, he made a huge mistake in relegating Jesus to being just another of a line of prophets leading up to himself.

H

Z said...

the blessing God pronounced over Ishmael is a real puzzler and probably enough fodder for a book.
God loves us all...and wants us to come to Him through Christ...and more and more muslims are starting to do that, even while the islamists are fighting so hard to get toe holds at, for example, Claremont Saminary, which is now opening its doors to a degree in muslim theology. News came out yesterday, quite a stunner.
Of course, it'll be a muslim school soon as Christian kids are supported by their folks, they can only go to the gov't for school loans and I'm wondering how long the gov't will give loans to religious schools (2 years more?) and islamists have all the money in the world to support their kids in any school no matter what the cost.
Anything for Sharia. and to bring Judeo Christian America DOWN

Craig and Heather said...

and more and more muslims are starting to do that, even while the islamists are fighting so hard to get toe holds

Glad you mentioned this.

Z said...

I wish I didn't have to..it's incredible.
I love my typo of SAMINARY!! Oops!! Sounds like a disease!

Craig and Heather said...

I wish I didn't have to..it's incredible.
I'm with you on wishing that there was no need. But, it is evidence that God's truth is far more powerful than anything Satan (already defeated at Calvary!!!), or rebellious humans, can concoct.

I love my typo of SAMINARY!! Oops!! Sounds like a disease!



"Saminary poisoning"?

Maybe. If the institution becomes corrupted....

H