"Charter schools are public schools and by law must not endorse or promote religion."......unless it's Islam, that is.
But, it's okay, because I'm SURE they had a Christmas program that went uncontested this last December, RIGHT? But, maybe Muslim schools are better, huh?
And, are we headed HERE? This is old news, but it might open our eyes, too.
And check this out.
IS THIS AMERICA ANYMORE, FOLKS? And, do we care? thanks, Mike, for the first link.
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I can only repeat the slogan I thought up the day after 911, and have posted hundreds of times since.
ISLAM is NOT a RELIGION; it is an INCURSION.
In other words the very presence of mosques on Western soil means the West has been INVADED. Hostile FOREIGN COLONIES have been planted in our midst, and are growing by leaps and bounds.
The Marxists paved the way for this, of course, by USING our CONSTITUTION and its guaranteed freedoms and our excessively generous, ultra-tolerant, casual, complacent nature AGAINST us. The Cultural Marxists via the Courts were the first to FORCE the acceptance of a PERVERTED, DEBASED interpretation of our Founding Documents upon us.
Thus began our cultural degeneration. The seductively seditious activities of Marxian opportunists paved the way and all-but rolled out the red carpet for the problems we face today and toasted them with Champagne.
We can blame the complacent fools in power with misguided sympathies who fell for a lot of clever legalistic doubletalk that left NORMAL, DECENT GOD-FEARING people reeling and staggering. THEY are the ones who PERMITTED this to happen.
Undesirable change never occurs by accident. Our supposed guardians were asleep at the switch when all this started to happen more than seventy-five years ago.
~ FreeThinke
PARTLY OFF and PARTLY ON TOPIC: I'd be interested to see some information and have a healthy discussion of the events that have taken place recently in Texas where authorities forcibly disbanded a colony of Mormon Fundamentalists who were practicing polygamy.
Apparently several hundred children were effectively kidnapped by government officials, wrested from their homes, taken into custody and separated from their parents and the only life they've ever known.
I'm sure no one here is going to advocate polygamy, but this to me is highly reminiscent of Janet Reno and the BATF's actions at WACO against the Branch Davidians, although I have seen no reports of actual murder during this event.
This may shock and perplex you, but like our Founders I am one who believes that LIBERTY trumps MORALITY every single time, except in cases where murder, mayhem, theft, vandalism, extortion and persistent harassment (i.e. stalking) take place.
You may hate what the "Fundamentalist Mormons" were doing, but if government officials can do what they did to THOSE people, they can do it to ANY and ALL of us.
It's Ruby Ridge, WACO and Elian Gonzales all over again.
And here's the KICKER: If we can effectively persecute small groups who do things of which the majority don't approve, why in Heaven's NAME can't we inveigh against the MUSLIMS who are FAR more of threat to our security and our traditional way of life than any small community of self-styled non-conformists?
~ FreeThinke
And this, my friend, is the “slippery slope” that results from some parents who continue to complain about prayer in schools. If public (government) schools cater to one religion, they must oblige every religion. Parents can always opt to send their children to parochial schools if they want to incorporate religious training into state-mandated curriculum, but as a former teacher, I can tell you that Islamic interests have been quite clever in the way they incorporate Islamic culture into public school curricula. They are most successful when school systems embrace “multi-cultural studies.”
Unfortunately, most social studies teachers know very little about non-Western culture; this is easy to discern when one simply looks at the amount of time geography and world history teachers spend on Asia, Africa, and the Middle East. Still, these are topics that must be addressed; it is convenient (to teachers) to use materials about the Middle East/Islam provided (free of charge) by the government of Saudi Arabia. Many of these lesson plans encourage teachers to use role-playing techniques to introduce Islamic culture, including having female students wear headscarves, and of course, the principal emphasis is presenting Islam of a religion of peace (rather than a religion of pieces).
Public funding of religious schools is not acceptable, and the Minnesota Department of Education is clearly asleep at the switch. Disguising religious schools as charter schools is plainly fraud; it would be interesting to know what process the charter school uses in accepting or rejecting students—e.g., are children with Christian backgrounds rejected? But this is actually a matter for Minnesota taxpayers to decide, and an informed public demands greater attention to this issue in the press. Nothing is likely to happen, however, until someone files a lawsuit.
Meanwhile, the government of Saudi Arabia continues to fund the construction and operation of madrassahs in this country – as private schools. The issue here is that many of these schools are teaching students to hate non-Muslims. I wonder how long our governments will allow this to continue . . . but again, regulatory agencies are asleep at the switch. Damn their eyes!
"LIBERTY TRUMPS MORALITY" as you say, unless teen aged girls are having to sleep with older men and have children on demand, don't you think?
And, oh yes, FT, I think Marxism paved the way for this, too.
Political correctness is reigning....and we don't have an umbrella. (awful dumb pun, but what the heck....)
Every time I hear a muslim (like abdullah at FPM, who mysteriously has really disappeared) say "let the COURTS decide" (CAIR says this now quite a bit, too), I realize we're done. Our LAWS protect THEM.
Remember the airline situation, what our media called "the flying imams"? I SO wish the imams had kept their lawsuit against those flying Americans because that would have exposed so much. BUT, they were FAR brighter than that and dropped it as soon as their legal SHaria Counsel reminded them "you're going to look bad if you sue Americans for that....don't die on this hill". I really do believe that.
awful.
RE: the "fundamentalist mormons", I believe the law is just following the law! Polygamy and pedophilia are ILLEGAL.
Now, yes..if we would just follow suit with the muslims. Germany is waking up to that ever since they saw that under age sons were killing their sisters for humiliating their families by dating a non-muslim boy; the boys were getting off with the underage lesser penalties and THAT is stopping. PLUS, in Germany, imams can give a hate sermon at noon and be on the plane to Iran by three.
I hope we wake up very soon, too.
My line these days is that Islam is God's sword of judgment against the nation for our falling so far away from laws and lives that honor Him in the last few decades, all the "liberationisms" that have unleashed a flood of sexual and other sins into our midst, and an increase in violence and murder.
We HAVE let "liberty" triumph over morality, FT, a bogus idea of liberty, the liberty to pollute the environment spiritually and morally, and this is the result, God's curses as outlined in Deuteronomy and Leviticus coming against us as they did against the ancient Israelites who fell away from His Law. One of the curses is enemies living in our midst, the invasion you are talking about. Cultural Marxism is a major instrument of increasing sin among us, which is judgment in itself.
Hardly any churches saw the handwriting on the wall in 9/11 and called for national repentance. Without national repentance it's all going to get worse. More and more Muslims in our midst, and illegal Mexican aliens too. Economic disaster is one of the curses too. How long can they keep that one from engulfing us?
I also had mixed feelings about the action against the Fundamentalist Mormons. They are abusing women and children, but who wants the government to have that much power? How do we resolve this?
I think you need a blog of your own, FT, where you can write to your heart's content about all these things and we can all go there and argue about the Fundamentalist Mormons for instance. All your friends will visit you there you know.
Yes, this has/is happening, primerly in California. The Saudis are behind alot of this, as far as funding textbooks and providing the curriculum. Damn straight we'd better do something, violent if need be. Hey, the Muslims are serious. Zin, do you remember the post Abdullah put up that finally turned you off to him? The one where he said ''we wwill put our mosques on every street corner?'' How do you think they plan to do that? Well, heres part of your answer. J"Mac.
I've got to agree, Z, that the women and children had to be taken out of that compound, and they are being treated well of course, as well as removed from that abominable abuse. I guess I'm just not sure the laws on which the government does such actions are always going to be reasonable. I guess it depends on what laws we get. The attempts to curtail homeschooling for instance hint at more and more unrighteous intrusion.
Johnny, sadly, I'm not sure California's going more muslim than any other state in the union...but, in general, we're allowing them to take over. Personally, I believe they're buying much more than we know. I know they're heavily invested in textbook companies and are taking advantage of that. Who knows how many fronts they have buying property, too? Funny, if we hadn't got their oil for them, they'd still be on camels, right?
cj, I simply can't imagine a Western, sophisticated country where having sex with young girls and their having children is not illegal,can you? Where?
This is what that is about..the mormons are otherwise peaceful, good people. What am I missing? There is no other claim in these arrests...it's not against their religion.
For us to start going after muslims who have multiple wives isn't going to fly until we clean up our own house first, right?
When I say Liberty trumps morality I am only echoing the sentiments of our Founding Fathers.
I certainly don't want to be put into a box that might brand me as an advocate of child abuse, but I think, as cj indicates, that allowing the government to assume and exercise power akin to that of Storm Troopers, the KGB and the Gestapo is FAR more dangerous and destructive to our best interests than allowing self-styled eccentrics to be eccentric, even when we believe their eccentricity is "immoral."
FYI: the OFFICIAL "LDS" Church disavows any connection with "Mormon Fundamentalists" and has in fact completely disowned them.
The point I keep TRYING to make in ALL these extremely controversial areas is that NO ONE should use the power of government to harass, bully, intimidate and destroy anything or anyone just because the majority find it unsavory. No one has the right to use the power of government to IMPOSE his religious convictions on anyone not of his faith either.
As I've said many times there is a universal proscription in the West against murder, rape, mayhem, theft, vandalism, extortion and persistent harassment. Beyond that I do not think the law has a right to go without becoming unreasonably intrusive and tyrannical.
It is ALWAYS better that a few guilty persons go free than an entire nation become enslaved to a POLICE STATE.
Believe me, you do NOT want a Police State. You wouldn't want it, even if you, yourself, had the authority to make policy and give ALL the orders.
Why wouldn't you want that, since you are a lovely, good-hearted, high-minded person? And why wouldn't those of us who love you want to ENTRUST even YOU with THAT kind of authority?
Because "POWER CORRUPTS and ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY."
That is ALWAYS true. It doesn't matter if the power is in the hands of The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Communists, the Fascists, the Democrats, the Republicans, the Jews, the Muslims, the Red Chinese, the WASPS, the Zulus, the Enemedia or the Militant Atheists.
It is power, ITSELF, we must fear, and ALWAYS work to keep in check.
Right now, the COURTS have entirely too much power. The machinations of the Warren Court began the rise of an Imperial Judiciary. This has weakened the Legislative and Executive branches of government so badly that the BALANCE of POWER has been LOST.
No matter HOW righteous, noble, well-meaning, and sincere our passions and beliefs, they become DANGEROUS once they are allowed to become DICTATORIAL.
And yes I have a proclivity for drawing basic principles from any given set of specific details and circumstances. I know this can be irritating, but PRINCIPLE is the bedrock of all worthy endeavor. Whenever we desert Principle in favor of Expediency, we get trapped into embracing fallacious policies like the New Deal, which have long-term ill effects.
Wrest a few children by force from a questionable milieu, and lose our NATION in the process?
NO THANKS!
~ FreeThinke
PS: Several people have suggested I should get my own blog. If that means I am not really welcome here, because I generate too much controversy, please say so, and I will absent myself out of respect for Z who is a long-established, very dear friend. - FT
I've got to go out and so I don't have the time right now to respond to your comment re the mormons, FT..thanks very much for it. I'm eager for others to chime in; I'm stumped at your attitude about this and know you are not at ALL in favor of child abuse, etc., so maybe it's me. I'm willing to listen.!!
And no....several people want you to have your own blog NOT so you leave here or anywhere else (NO WAY, please!) but because you'd just be so GOOD at it. Period. It's unanimous!!! But, you have to promise to stick around!
see you later...xx Z
Sigh. No, I have to completely agree with Z that the Mormon group has to be prosecuted somehow and the women and children freed from it, and our law is right in this case.
But I can't help noticing that our laws are going more and more against the good guys so whenever I read about something like this I think of it as just another way the ground is being prepared. Mormon polygamy should be prosecuted, but some use it as an excuse to demonize all religion. But no, I can't object to this particular action.
No, the founders of America were not in favor of freedom of criminality, and that's what you end up arguing for, FT, and it's really the direction of the whole Cultural Marxist influence too. Abortion is no longer criminal for instance. Pornography is no longer criminal in the sense it used to be. I'm sure we could argue all this to death, just what should be criminalized.
I propose a blog for you FT because I think you could make good use of it and have a lot more freedom to say what you please there than on other's blogs. I have started blogs of my own for the same reason although I haven't had the energy for them lately. But when I do it's good to have my own blog for ranting away on my favorite topics. Otherwise I have a tendency to get into tangential topics that go on and on and can pull Z's blog away from the intent of her main topic. No, of COURSE it doesn't mean you aren't wecome to post here, your posts are WANTED, but you are bursting with topics that need their own outlet. Same with me, and I will probably start a new blog soon too.
CJ...interesting. We seem to have come from the originally intended 'freedom from criminality' to 'freedom of criminality'
Good point.
Also, great point about blogs; FT is too bright to be just commenting here and there....I'd love to stop in any blog of his and give my two cents worth to his buck ninety-seven!
Both of you, let me know when you start yours.
z
And here's the KICKER: If we can effectively persecute small groups who do things of which the
~ FreeThinke; from last night;
we had our internet shutdown during last night, so I re-up load my comment concerning your 2'end post;
you said
majority don't approve, why in Heaven's NAME can't we inveigh against the MUSLIMS who are FAR more of threat to our security and our traditional way of life than any small community of self-styled non-conformists?
=====================
Well;
I do my best to copy your style of literature;
my comment in one sentence is;
VERY DEAR~ FreeThinke;
Ce n'est pas une Question de pouvoir,
C'est une Question de Vouloir;
In French sounds JOLIE, in English, I leave you to generate the right wordings,
SAM
I think it is interesting so many of these stories come out of Minnesota. What is going on there? The taxi drivers refusing to pick up people with dogs or alcohol, foot baths in schools, etc. It's odd.
The situation here in Texas with the raid on the religious compound is very sad. They are LDS, however, not Mormon. There is a distinction, though I am no expert and don't have that answer. Apparently the authorities had no idea there were so many children in the compound. They thought the number was more around 100-150. Over 60 Child Protection social workers have been dispatched from here in Houston to help de-brief them. It will be a long and time consuming process.
It's interesting that after the police arrived and started investigating(with a warrant)139 women CHOSE to leave the compound!
Seems to me that they took that chance to escape from the abuse...makes them victims of kidnapping to me. Otherwise they had to be really sick or injured to get out.
And now they have found a bed in the "temple" where older men consummated their "spiritual" marriages to barely pubescent girls...they were not even LEGAL marriages.
It was a law-breaking situation.
I am a Christian, and I dislike immensely the intrusion of state into church, but this was a definite, illegal operation...and it was definitely NOT handled with janet reno's lack of finesse or sense!
janet reno is a bully, this was the investigation of a series of phone calls by a 16 yr. old girl, pregnant with her second child(one 16 yr. old had 4 children)it was a domestic abuse investigation that uncovered egregious illegal activity.
Not a religious investigation!
tmw
Note to Z from FreeThinke":
I can RECEIVE emails from you, but can neither SEND or REPLY.
"LIBERTY TRUMPS MORALITY"
Uh-huh. And what about the liberty of those girls and women to not be bartered off to a forty-year-old pervert as soon as they hit puberty?
Hi, Karen; Can you find out a distinction between Mormon and LDS? I have never heard that, only thought LDS was the name of their church and the adherents were Mormons. Thanks...
Brooke, tmw...right. When kids are put in this situation, it's immoral AND illegal and there IS no liberty for those involved. It has to stop.
It was definitely not a religious situation, though it's in a supposedly 'religious' setting...imagine a 16 yr old having four children. That's 'religious'?? not in my book.
FT..this is frustrating! So, you are getting my emails..thanks for letting me know. And, I have to assume you are getting my messages of not using the old Adelphia address, right? You're using my new one? SO WEIRD.
I think that its not only the Saudi-funded Islamic schools that are taking advantage of the charter school movement... there have also been a number of Afro-centric schools set up along similar lines w/emphasis on an NOI-style practice of Islam.
and FT,
I recommended you start your own blog the other day for selfish personal reasons... so that I could read MORE of what you saying here... not LESS of it. I wasn't trying to chase you away... and sorry if I may have given you that impression.
scarey and frightening scenario Z..our stupid govt allows the enemy to creep amongst us and pretends we are the biased ones!!!
For information: I haven't heard of a distinction between LDS and Mormon myself, and I've had a Mormon correspondent for a few years now. He prefers "LDS" but accepts "Mormon." He completely disowns the fundamentalist polygamists as Mormon at all, so wouldn't accept either name for them.
If those Mormons get the power in USA, what will happen?
And if the whole world cheers them, and makes the business with them!!!, what will happen?
And If some people start to tell them NO, What will Happen?
The MORMONS are the COPIES of the Mullahs, or the Mullahs are the copies of the MORMONS,
Well, when the Mormons on power who considers themselves the will and the power and the word of GOD do not accepte the people's will, and want to stay on power by all the means,
the Resistance of the people starts,
What you have read abow, for you the Americans, it's a Science FICTION,
But, somewhere, in our planet, in a very far country, the same MORMONS who are called the Mullahs are GOVERNING,
Multigamy, and Forced mariages of the Small girls with the men of 40, 50, and even 70 years old, is legal.
And the Women belongs to the men, and they have no rights.
In that very far country, which is my patrie (IRAN), we have started the RESISTANCE, and we have elected the best woman to DIRECT our RESISTANCE, yes, the same woman that the MORMONS and the MULLAHS take for their slaves.
Our Resistance LEADER is Madame MARYAM RAJAVI.
She has an ARMY, and all the commanders are WOMEN, in our ARMY, no man commands a woman,
YES, for an strategic victory on ISLAMISM, and to Iradicate the Islamism, we should leave the leadership to the most victim, and that's what we did.
But our history of RESISTANCE do not stop here, I'll write more, if you want me to write.
Madame Zin;
Thank you so very much for the opportunity that you offered me to write about our RESISTANCE;
GOD BLESS YOU very dear Madame.
SAM
SAM said en francais: "It is not a question of being ABLE, but of being WILLING," when I asked why we cannot seem to do what is necessary to clip the wings of the MUSLIMS who have planted hostile FOREIGN COLONIES in our midst when we have NO PROBLEM using Gestapo-like tactics against groups of non-conformist, NATIVE-BORN AMERICANS?
Everyone but SAM missed that point in the furor over "abused, barely-pubescent girls."
I do not KNOW precisely what actually took place in the Texas compound. Again we have only NEWS REPORTS to guide us, and I am highly suspicious ALWAYS of ANYTHING the media reports, because of their penchant for sensationalism and their well-known, much-discussed lack of integrity.
Wresting infants and young children from the arms of their mothers and herding them away from the only home environment they've ever known in order to give them over to the tender mercies of SOCIAL WORKERS strikes me as totally outrageous. And BOY! does that ever smack of SOCIALISM. (The Almighty State knows what's BEST for every child, every parent, every single adult of every age, and stands ready willing and able to make ALL your choices FOR you from womb to tomb).
Sorry, NO THANKS!
"They that can give up essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserves neither liberty nor safety."
~ BENJAMIN FRANKLIN
In ANY group there will ALWAYS be some who are discontented with their lot in life, and will make exaggerated claims against their own people for reasons that are not always legitimate.
There was a report on Sixty Minutes (that glorious organ of incessant malediction against American Industry and Christianity) about the HORROR some poor girl supposedly experienced living in an AMISH community. From the way the thing was described we are led to believe the AMISH raise their daughters as though they were prisoners at Auschwitz.
This is the way our media–––our ENEMEDIA–––works.
I didn't want to get into this, because it ALWAYS makes some people–––particularly women–––irate, but in many many societies, including our OWN till quite recently, girls were considered "marriageable" the moment they reached puberty.
It is well-known that girls were routinely married off, usually to OLDER MEN, in unions ARRANGED by their ELDERS by the time they were thirteen or fourteen. And so throughout much of human history it was not at all unusual for a girl to have married and born several children by the time she was sixteen or eighteen.
In modern Western society–––particularly in the USA–––we have managed to prolong adolescence and childish dependency far beyond puberty sometimes into the LATE-TWENTIES and BEYOND. Because of the great material comforts we have and way we have been persuaded to run our lives, a lot of us NEVER grow up.
I know more grandparents who are raising their grandchildren, and more adults who deliberately choose NOT to take on the responsibility of HAVING children, than you could shake a stick at.
The Salem Witch Trials and the McMartin Case (please look it up, if you are not familiar with it) are always uppermost in my mind whenever matters of this sort arise. Why most of us are so EAGER to believe the WORST before we really KNOW much of anything just floors me.
We find it so easy to bash and incarcerate a few oddballs, whose behavior we think we don't like, but don't seem to have it in us to confront and combat the TRUE enemies that THRIVE here.
Did you not know that there are Para-Military Muslim Compounds in New York State and several other places that have completely overwhelmed, intimidated and virtually incapacitated the native-born Americans into whose communities they moved and bought up acreage?
You'll never hear about THAT on Sixty Minutes, and no Federal or State Police Force will EVER do a THING about it.
I find that MUCH more disturbing than the admittedly weird goings on among quasi-religious polygamists and their teenaged brides.
Unless these self-styled Fundamentalist Mormons ("Mormon" is just a nickname for any and all variations of the sect) are keeping their women LOCKED UP in CELLS and permit them no freedom whatsoever, I can't get too excited about this issue.
What bothers me, and always will, is the way we are letting ourselves slide into becoming a POLICE STATE.
~ FreeThinke
FT, I'll just say again that I, cj, TMW, and Brooke, and others, don't think that this group of pedophiles is just a bunch of 'nonconformists'. Who the H wants nonconformists arrested or rounded up? Anybody? You are SO right...that's fascism.
And, believe me, I think I speak for us all in that clamping down on Mormons and not Muslim pedophiles and polygamists is ridiculous!!
Thanks for your opinions. They are MORE than welcome here, one thing I do NOT want at geeeeZ! is a bunch of people with the exact same opinion on every subject! Thanks, FT....I love having you here.
SAM, the Mormons are not "getting into power" here in America, believe me!! They've been here for many years and aren't going anywhere and also aren't growing in any huge numbers! If you mean Romney as a possible Vice Presidential nominee, his vice presidency wouldn't make Mormons any threat to us, either. As a matter of fact, most Mormons are very good, clean, traditional people with excellent values.
I appreciate your having written a bit about Madame Rajavi, etc.
Could you write me a summary of the name of the group, where you are, when it got started with Madame Rajavi, where she is now and why AND what you would like to see happen in Iran and HOW YOUR GROUP COULD HELP! Also, include a bit about the terror list we have you on. I would very much like to publish that as an article, not just a comment on this page. Please do! I will edit and help you with spelling/grammar, but you do have a charming way of writing and won't change much! I just think more people need to learn. merci beacoup.
FT-You misunderstood me, I said the investigation was started because of a 16 yr. old girl wanting out...and if you look at the pictures, those children are with their mothers, the whole group is being kept together, at 2 locations...but a number of mid-teen girls have been found to be pregnant. They are being cared for.
Do I know of the para-military groups ACROSS the US? I don't know all their locations, BUT I know they exist...and that causes me to want to clean my arsenal and practice!
Any mohammadin that practices polygamy, concubinage, child marriage or slavery in this country are breaking the law...I wonder what they would find behind the walls of Palm Coast, here in Florida! Slave quarters? Harem quarters? Underage sex slaves?
Wish they would do a little investigation there...but I'm not holding my breathe!
tmw
It is not a question of being ABLE, but of being WILLING;
Thank you FreeThinke;
I learned something more,
I'm afraid to loose your kindness if I comment your post,
Because, The way you play with the words is like a great solist pianist who traces the melodies, and I like it, I'm not an educated person comparing to you, a scientist is an UN-ALPHABET (unknowledged) comparing to you,
But I like the music and the jolie Harmonics, and the way you play your music with the words, delights me, and for not to loose this formidable music, I'm not free to comment your post,
But, si, vous m'accorder la liberté de l'opinion, sans que vous vous fachiez contre moi, je commenterai votre post.
SAM
Zin;
I'll write about our Resistance following your directives,
The strugle for democracy and freedom of opinion has a very long time story in IRAN or the old persia;
but the last 100 years, this Resistance started to be Organized,
the first part I wrote it to you, would you please let me to continue after the publishing the first part at 20th April.
And thank you again for your kind and human feelings.
SAM
SAM, yes...I'll do my best to get the piece you wrote published by April 19th, if possible, so it's there on the 20th (also Armenian Martyrs Day, by the way). And yes, after that, let's get a nice piece from you telling us all your story! I look forward to it! Thanks so much,. z
FreeThinke thanks everyone who said encouraging words. And thank you, TMW, for clarifying the situation in texas. I think the more we talk about these things the more we might learn from one another, and the closer we get to the truth.
I probably post too many words at a time, and that might obscure some of the points I try to make. I certainly don't want children sexually exploited, nor do I approve of women–––or anyone else–––being held captive against their will or better judgment by anyone anywhere.
I've seen no articles at the usual news sources on this Texas polygamist cult situation. I just heard about it on TV a day or two ago. I thought it was worth discussing for the reasons I've already outlined.
SAM, you are allowed to say anything you want to say to me as long as Madame Z approves. ;-) I know you well enough, I think, to be sure you would never say anything just to be unkind or to start a row.
Your English is a good deal better than my French. Your English has improved a lot. (Vous avez en Anglais amelioré beaucoup, mon ami).
I think it should HELP to discuss all issues openly and iron out our differences politely. I do not necessarily ADVOCATE every disagreeable subject I raise. I hope everyone understands that?
And, Z, thank you for starting this blog. It has developed into a lively, interesting place very quickly it seems to me. You are to be congratulated.
I do hope, however, that someday the technical glitch that has blocked our private email relationship disappears. I have no idea what's wrong, and even less idea how it might be fixed
If Mike were here, I'll bet he could help, but Alas! we see too little of him these days.
~ FT
FT they are trying to do the right thing by those children and mothers.
So they are trying to be reasonable.
tmw
Z, I haven't been able to find a distinction between LDS and Mormon. On the web site lds.org a definition I found was "Mormon Church - A commonly used term to describe Christ's restored church. However, the official name is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." So, I don't know. I heard a former member of a group like the one in Texas correct an interviewer and claim it's an LDS group. Like I said, I'm no expert.
Karen, thanks for checking...I think they're one in the same. Sort of like ISLAM (LDS) is full of MUSLIMS (Mormons)..? That's the way I have always heard it told.
My husband was in Salt Lake City about 35 years ago and visited the cathedral there. He lived in Munich at the time and, when they arrived home after their vacation in the States, Mormons came knocking on their door within DAYS of their return "HI, are you interested?!" Cracks him up every time he thinks of it. BOY, do they know how to GET OUT THERE and bang the bushes for converts!!
their missionaries learn the same sales techniques that I learned as a salesman
RC
Why Islamic education I recently read in a local paper….Societies like America or those modelled on it are literally drifting without direction with a host of problems all cited and grossly exaggerated. So what’s it all mean? Anonymous is right! It is an INCURSION, one that seems to be condoned by the stupid PC minded authorities…C’mon America. Islamic teachings in our/ your educational systems needs to be arrested now, before its too late...
If you want further support for my cynical disdain for the media, please check out this link:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/33328.html
Or just Google DICK CHENEY SUNGLASSES
You'll be astonished at how far media creeps will go to try to make trouble out of nothing,
~ FreeThunke
OFF TOPIC but SIGNIFICANT, I think.
This beautifully written tribute to Paul Harvey, who almost ninety years of age and still recovering from a bout with pneumonia, verges on poetry. I have listened to Paul Harvey with curiosity and increasing interest off and on since I was as in my high chair.
Because Paul Harvey is and always has been profoundly conservative, most of the information we can get about him from Google is heavily slanted against him and subtly snide. This heartfelt piece by columnist Bob Lonsberry helps tell the truth about a fine man. I just read that Mr. Harvey is planning to return to broadcasting on April 25. I do hope he does. Pneumonia at any age is a serious matter; at his age it could easily prove fatal. America would not be the same without him.
~ FreeThinke
[Nyi-l] Apr 10 Lonsberry Column
A NOTE TO PAUL HARVEY
Dear Paul Harvey,
It's our turn to wish you a Good Day.
We've missed you on the radio and have heard that you're on sick call, and we wanted you to know that you're in our thoughts and prayers.
And you're in our lives.
You've been on the air longer than most of us have been alive, and many of us can specifically remember listening to you for most of our lives. When we were little kids, you were on mom and dad's radio, and now our little kids hear you on mom and dad's radio. You're a tradition we happily cling to.
Though a radio network already uses the name, you, sir, are the voice of America. You are the small-town voice from home, the fellow who put the spirit of Carl Sandburg and Robert Frost and Norman Rockwell on the radio. You are as American as a Shaker hymn.
You live in Chicago, but we all believe you can see rows of ripening corn out your window, and indeed you can. You can see this country out your window, and you can see its heart. You've found the Midwestern chord that resonates from sea to shining sea, that is as American as family and home.
You have the spirit that some of us think Ronald Reagan invented, but which you both knew was the spirit of America rising. The simple faith that if we do our best, tomorrow will be a better day, that there's nothing we can't handle, that life is an unfolding tableau of wonder and awe.
You remind us, a couple of times a day, that life is meant to be met with a smile, that we are a people of optimism and gratitude and good cheer, that right is right and wrong is wrong and a man or woman will do well in life if they stay on the right side of the line.
You have always been a gentleman, a man of good manners and honor. Those are traits you at first reflected and later taught, as society forgot its own manners along the way and some of us looked to you for a reminder.
You have held our hand for a quarter of our country's history.
People working jobs and raising families and wrestling with the tasks of life have relied on you for an update and an explanation, a window onto the blur of news they trusted you to sort through and pass on.
You told us about McCarthy and the missile crisis and the assassination of a president. From the civil rights marches to the Beatles to Vietnam and Watergate. You told us about the men in space and the Iron Curtain and the fall of the Berlin Wall. When Buddy Holly died and Marilyn Monroe died and Pope John Paul 2 died.
You've gotten us through three or four gasoline crises, eleven presidents and a half a dozen wars - and that's just since you went national.
You were the eyes and ears, Mr. Harvey, and you always told it straight. You respected us and you respected the truth and you respected our country. You made us care about how the crops were coming in, how the stars shined over Reveille, what the new strawberries tasted like. You are the mayor and storyteller of America's hometown.
You taught us that the most important news each day had to do with some fine couple who had pledged their lives to one another and meant it. That honored them and inspired us.
And when you turned your pen loose, you were as good a writer as we've had. Some of your Saturday talks were literature, and we stood transfixed in our kitchens or sat at our destination in our cars, not moving, not wanting to miss a word. Time and time again, for two full generations, the purest and most beautiful thoughts we've heard have been yours. Your pulpit is a network of radio towers and we've been happy to be in the congregation.
Which is all our way of saying, "Thank you, sir, and God bless you."
You have given your long life to us, in little bits on the radio, and we recognize that and appreciate it. And we appreciate you.
You were the companion of our long-passed grandparents, and you are our companion still. You are not a friend of the family, you are family.
So get well soon, and give our best to your Angel.
With love and gratitude,
America
~Bob Lonsberry © 2008
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http://emissives.com/mailman/listinfo/nyi-l_emissives.com
RC, that's most probably true! Sales techniques which are pretty effective!
American Interests; that really hits the nail on the head; American/Western societies are drifting and allowing others to take over because we haven't been ALLOWED to stand up for OUR OWN COUNTRY, OUR OWN CULTURE, because that would look NONINCLUSIVE or HATEFUL or even BIGOTED! We are stepping down like some filthy doormat, so the hordes can come feel comfortable in this wonderful 'Land of the Free'...except WE are not FREE anymore.
You guess which political party has propogated THIS idiocy.
I remember a cartoon I loved...picture the State of Liberty standing there........and the sign under it says "I said 'give me your huddled masses, NOT your befuddled asses'! That was 20 years ago. I still think it's right.
FreeThinke says, "Here we go again."
IF you're interested, here are three links to responsibly-stated information about The Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints aka "The Mormons" and a few quotes from The Salt Lake City Tribune on the officially disavowed practice of plygamy.
1) http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/
2) http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e419fb40e21cef00VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD
3) http://www.sltrib.com/portlet/article/html/fragments/print_article.jsp?articleId=8847466&siteId=297
Parts of the third article referenced appear below [truncated and heavily edited by FT]:
Plural Marriage Window Still Agape
By Rebecca Walsh, Columnist
The Salt Lake Tribune
:
••• ". . .[I]nitially, I was all for the raid on Eldorado. I support any closely monitored law enforcement action that targets the welfare manipulation, borderline pedophilia and emotional and physical abuses of polygamy." •••
••• "As the raid drags on, there are troubling signs of civil rights violations. Holding more than 500 women and children indefinitely and putting their husbands and fathers under house arrest while looking for one abused girl seems like overkill.
••• "And the Schleicher County sheriff's complete disregard for the sanctity of the sect's temple is disturbing. Immigration officials didn't storm a Chicago church, even though they knew an undocumented immigrant activist was using it as her political platform. I can't imagine state police forcing their way into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' temple in Salt Lake City.
••• "But the rules are different for an ostracized society.
••• '"That one person has been harmed does not seem to justify what has occurred," says Brian Barnard, a civil rights attorney in Salt Lake City . . . "No matter what euphemism is used to describe their removal from the property, all those folks have been taken into custody, their lives and families disrupted and their liberties trampled upon."' •••
••• "After a few days of looking at pictures of girls with pompadours and billowing dresses meekly carrying babies and pillowcases and garbage bags of belongings into their latest barrack, I've concluded this show of force won't change a thing. . ." •••
••• . . . "I am the great-granddaughter of a Mormon polygamist. As I heard the story told, it was reasonable on a hardscrabble frontier for widows and [badly-treated] wives and surplus women to be married to a single man for purposes of [personal safety] and procreation. But even the LDS Church acknowledges that time has passed." •••
••• . . . "The problem is the Woodruff Manifesto (?) left some wiggle room [for] the Hereafter. Leaving open the possibility that polygamy will be lived in heaven allows "true believers" . . . to rationalize their [polygamous] way of life.
••• "But until the gaping window is closed on heavenly polygamy, Mormon leaders cannot completely disavow the practice. And the rest of us will continue to be embarrassed for living in the birthplace of plural marriage's most twisted modern-day interpretations.
walsh@sltrib.com
Well, FT, you have managed to bring the subject back to my original doubts. What is the legal justification for removing that many women and children on the evidence of one phone call by one girl who claims to have been abused, whom they can't even find now? I certainly regard the cult as being abusive of women and children, from other things I've read, but it doesn't make sense that they hadn't already raided them for polygamy and now act on so little actual cause, or so it seems. I await further developments.
cj; that's a good point...except they DID apparently find a LOT wrong there! Who knows if this girl who can't be found now had already escaped and made the call to alert the gov't as to what is illegal and, for sure, immoral?
They went in on the tip from someone who saw crimes of our government being committed against young women and girls. Am I getting something wrong here or DID they find very young girls forced to sleep and bear children by grown men? NO??
This is how law enforcement works.
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