I find it painful to endure the thought that our government can't "inflict pain that is difficult to endure" on people whom they have reason to believe could destroy this country.
It's a fact that the waterboarding of Zubaydah got us Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Thank God. Who knows how many more Americans would have DIED in tall burning buildings, having left agonizing goodbye messages on their loved ones' phones, because we thought it inhumane to shove water down Zubaydah's throat?
Here's another thing I find painful. Can our country never hurt anyone in an attempt to keep us safe? Can we not torture someone we have good reason to believe would behead his CIA torturer in a heartbeat if he could? Think Daniel Pearl, or Nick Berg.
You see, the enemy doesn't give a good damn about the Geneva Convention! They put people through torture we can't even imagine, physical and psychological. For a long time, OUR kids couldn't shoot back at a mosque from which bullets were fired that killed their buddy! (I can only pray we're not being lied to and that's changed now). Isn't that more demoralizing to our soldiers than waterboarding?
Here's what's most painful to me: Is this anti-torture thing on our part (Cheney's been found to have participated in these decisions now, so the story will have legs, just get ready) a metaphor for how Americans really don't CARE what happens to us as long as "we're better than they are"? And WHO's better? THEY wouldn't torture US given half a chance?
We can't wiretap, we can't torture, we can't ... ... well, it's really painful and "too difficult to endure" for me to imagine we're not worth doing all we can to protect AMERICA, our very selves. PLEASE tell me if I'm a monster. I simply can't understand the other side's thinking on this subject.
Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., lambasted what he described as "yet another astonishing disclosure about the Bush administration and its use of torture."
"Who would have thought that in the United States of America in the 21st century, the top officials of the executive branch would routinely gather in the White House to approve torture?" Kennedy said in a statement.
Mr. Kennedy, who COULD have thought they shouldn't?
55 comments:
Z... Look at the mental torture they make us live through! Why are we so "considerate" of them when, if they had the slightest change, would torture us in a heart beat! Haven't they done this already, repeatedly?
We won't inflict "pain that is difficult tu endure" yet we allow them to do whatever they want with us.
Maybe if we torture the captive terrorist in Guantanamo Bay they'll tell us where Osama is!
Right..Anonymous. I'm with you!
Brooke.."The Admiral" is a great nickname......a friend of ours calls him "The Chappaquiddik Water Walker" He has NO shame, you know that! thanks! z
Me!... We should have the right to torture them and anyone who is a threat to the well being of any American!
Hi All,
To begin with, it seems a bit ironic that Ted Kennedy would come forward on this subject, considering the fact that, Mary Jo Kopechne suffered a tortuous death trapped in the watery grave of Senator's Kennedy's own making, while he pondered how to save his own sorry hide.
That aside, we cannot overlook the very real possibility that the use of a dirty bomb could destroy an American city, including many thousands of it's inhabitants.
It's ridiculous to suggest that knowingly allowing such a catastrophe to take place, as opposed to waterboarding a suspect, is even possible.
The person that made the decision not to take such action would find his explanation of "world opinion was more important", a meager excuse which would likely find him a target for any number of Americans who would seek his very life in return.
For that matter, would any rational person think that given the choice between waterboarding a suspect who very likely may have information which would prevent the deaths of our soldiers and Marines, or letting them be killed, even be a complicated decision? I hope not.
The Genevea Conventions were not designed for a war such as the one in which were are engaged. Terrorists don't wear uniforms or have serial numbers. They are not a State sanctioned army.
So, it seems, there are no rules for them.
Meanwhile, our military is expected to fight these barbarians with carefully crafted ROE, so that some have been prosecuted on murder charges! What the hell is going on? We are at war!
We must do what is called for at the moment in this war, not say, "time out while we consult our attorneys".
As far as I'm concerned, unless I'm out there, every day, with my life on the line, I have no business making life and death decisions for those who are.
Neither do I have that right, regarding those faced with the hard decisions which must be made.
How easy it is for a Congressman or Senator, to hold up to judgment or ridicule, those who are directly responsible for the safety of millions of Americans, and our brave young men and women who face death every day.
I hear, "we're better than that". You know, we are the best. We have to do what we have to do. And, when we win, the first politicians to join a parade, would be those "losers and whiners", tripping all over themselves to lead it.
We have a long war to win. Let's get on with it, whatever it takes, and the Devil take the hindmost.
Pris
La torture et les sevices vous rendras in-human;
the torture and the sevices will transform you to a monstre;
Why the torture and mis-treatment is forbiden by GOD and in all religions?
Because, the torture and the sevices, will transform a human being to a monstre, and there will be no difference between you and your enemy.
There are so many tools to fight and BARRAGE the terrorism, you don't need to use the criminiel's tools to fight them.
We and our Movement of Resistance, we are the lethal threat to the Islamists, they are extremely afraid from us, they are afraid more from oour sisters, WHY, we have never tortured anybody, we have never hanged and never executed a prisoner, even if he was a mullah or a Passdar.
Let me to bring you our experience and my own visual witness.
I remember some 20 years ago in one of our bases in the border of Iran and Iraq, where we were around 600 fighters only in that site, we were charged to recieve the new volonteers who were coming from Iran to join the Resistance columns.
we had several hundreds of new arrivals, of the men and the women of all ages.
I was allowed to communicate with them with no limit even before their screenings.
One day, one of them told me, how about a game on Volly Ball, I accepted and I started to make several teams, when the players of each team were formed, we started to play, at any game, the loser team was replaced with another team, and the games were rulling each 5 to ten minutes,
When we started the third game with the third team, my friend who had suggested the rulling volly ball dismissed and went out from the team, so, our reduced team lost and we had to wait that all the teams play at least one round,
I had enough time to go and find my dimissed friend, and I asked him why, why he left the team just in the midle of the game, he said, "I don't like to play with that torturer!!!", what?!! Torturer?!!, I said,
Yes Torturer, He is a Passdar, I was more and more surprised, and he went away.
I went to see my commander and I said him what I had heard,
Well the torturer was arrested in the next minut, and we had several tenth of the new arrivals who came to the security gate and asked that the torturer be delivered to them, the girls were saying that, the GUY was the torturer of the women prison in the city of KERMAN;
He was sent and smuggled by the Mullahs services to make a terror.
We were not allowed to touch the Torturer, even me, because I was exited exactly like you ZIN, I wanted to tear him in 2 parts, my commander who was my best friend, like a brother said me, LISTEN, if you touch him, I'll execute you I myself, he is a prisoner, and we should not mistreat a prisoner.
The Guy wrote the several tenth of pages about his missions and about his tortures and executions, AWFULL, a real Butcher, I leave you imagin what he had done to the poor girls in the prison before their executions, one moment of silence, A real enraged animal, OH my GOD, even now, after 20 years, I become sick and mad when I remember those pages.
But we didn't touch him and we returned him to RED-CROSS according to the GENOVA convention about the war prisoners.
To Iradicate the Terrorism and Islamism, we have the apropriate methodes, With torture and crminel's methodes, nobody can fight the terrorism nor Islamism
SAM
You are "right on" as usual. Kennedy committed the supreme form of water torture when he let that young woman drown in the back seat of the car. Your blog is terrifice. THANKS
Dick
You pose relevant questions and it is easy to see that you share a legitimate concern. Either “we the people” are dedicated to safeguarding our country, or we are not. There are no half-measures, and there is no such thing as “almost combat.” We should have a public dialog on the issue of interrogation, the purpose of which is to glean information that will be useful in defending America. As I see it, there are two arguments, pro and con.
1. We must engage in interrogation without stepping over the line into torture, universally prohibited by civilized nations and signatories of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
2. We should avoid interrogation outside the jurisdiction and supervision of courts; we should offer individuals a range of our own Constitutional guarantees, including Fifth and Sixth Amendment protection, which prohibits involuntary self-incrimination and guarantees a fair and speedy trial.
When dealing with enemy soldiers, neither of the foregoing is a problem because the Geneva Convention (as amended) protects military combatants. An enemy combatant may not be tried in any court for participating in armed conflict, except if he or she is a spy, but they can be court-martialed for crimes perpetrated on others while prisoners of war.
So then, what we are really talking about with respect to the so-called global war on terror is what to do with stateless people, who associate with informal (paramilitary) organizations not recognized by Hague conventions. Common sense should prevail. Suppose we capture a citizen of Saudi Arabia, and identify that person as a leading insurgent in Iraq. We have three options: (1) Take that person into custody, transport him to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and elicit from him information about the terror network. (2) Turn that person over to the government of Iraq and let them handle it; and (3) Return that person to Saudi Arabia and request that they keep little Ibrahim home in the future. The first option is the most humane, in my opinion because we know that insurgents sent back to Saudi Arabia are indeed tortured, and then beheaded.
Now, contrary to the view of uninformed persons, “water-boarding” does not cause death. Neither does sensory depravation or exposure to loud music for hours while being forced to stand while blindfolded. But some experts have opined that under such conditions, a captive will tell you anything in order to escape further interrogation. This is probably true, but no intelligence gathering body will accept any confession without corroboration—so the argument may be moot. On the other hand, we know that interrogation does provide useful information, and we know that such information has helped the US to prevent other terrorist attacks, both in the US and at other (foreign) locations. So we should ask if these measures do in fact save lives, should we prevent meaningful interrogations?
Of course, one problem is that there have been egregious violations of human rights in the past. I mentioned how Saudi Arabia deals with terrorists, but also the South Vietnamese Army reputedly tossed VC prisoners out of helicopters in order to discover information from the remaining captives; they were immediately willing to fess up to what they knew. We must guard against such abuses — and this is why the facility at Gitmo pursues a careful framework for interrogation. Gitmo activities are also monitored by third parties (mostly attorneys whose field of study is international law), and the entire process does conform to human rights laws pertaining to military tribunals.
Those who argue in favor of turning insurgents over to civilian courts are simply pathetic in their lack of understanding. Those who argue in favor of closing Gitmo down are equally ignorant. And of course, if we do not discover terrorist plans and strategies, and people die because of it, the ignorant souls who oppose interrogation could care less. After all, they are not responsible. So I think we must have access to corroborated intelligence information, and if these captured terrorists choose not to answer truthfully (the Qu’ran allows them to lie), then we need to use techniques that have been shown to loosen their tongues. The safety of our own people, both civilian and military, demands no less of us.
Semper Fi
SAM; if it's a dirty bomb in Cleveland, Ohio killing thousands of people versus our dunking water down someone's throat, I'll dunk the water.
Your story is hideous, what a dilemma, and I hate to say this, but who KNOWS where that awful person is now? If he went to the Red Cross, you can be certain he was released very soon after the arrest, believe me. Do we want people like that on the street?
Have we come to be a world which champions the torturer over the tortured...even POSSIBLY tortured?
Dick, I'm proud to have you here..thanks for your great comment and your nice remark.
Mustang....how can ANYONE argue with all the good information/thinking you share here? Excellent. You said, more eruditely (by a mile) and more informatively, exactly what I think. I'm proud to be on your side.
Thanks, guys!
It seems to me that the 'reasonable' never seeems to be defined.
35 seconds.....that's the longest any one of these guys has lasted before singing like a canary
I don't find this unreasonable....and to be honest I hope they suffer from PTSD
Zin;
That Person has returned to his previous job of Torture, we returned him to RED CROSS by knowing that he may return to his previous job.
90 percent of the cases is repetitive.
But the Question is not there, your example is an special case that I'll develope it in your blog step by step,
All the terrorism cases are the special cases by itself.
Just let me to tell you that, behind a terrorist there is at least 400 people who are working synchronously for the planings, logistics, operation, evacuation, supervision,
and the bomb carrier do not have the information about his behind.
So, there is no terrorist without an administration behind, and in 99 percent of the terrorism cases, there is a country behind who is directly concerned.
You'r talking with an expert of scientific tracker of terrorism, and I have no error till now on my record.
There is always, always a politics of complaisance in front and a country behind.
For your 9/11, I was never surprised, one of my friends had written a book about an incoming 9/11 type of Terror in one of the USA big cities at 1993,
When I asked him, how did you immagined the 9/11 at 1993, he said me that, the politics of the Appeasement of USA towards Islamism had only one issue, 9/11,
His books are published by the Z BOOKS publisher,
He is unblieveable,
The Question is, PLUS JAMAIS CA,
Never again like this, or, Iradication of the Islamism Terrorism.
SAM
Elbro, I completely agree with you. And, you know, ALL these bad guys KNOW from watching OUR television and OUR senate 'grillings' that we can't kill them or mutilate them (both of which I don't agree with, there are lines we shouldn't cross!), so they're thinking "Okay, I've got some water up my nose and this stinks, but ....if I tell and get out of here, ol' Abdullah will behead me, so..."
And yes, you're probably right about how long it takes them to 'sing'. PLUS, so WHAT if they give us wrong information...as mustang said, our spy types always look for corroboration before they act! And, really, if acting before that corroboration saves the city of Miami, didn't we do the right thing? Isn't it worth acting on OUR side???
SAM: Your contact said there would be a 9/11 because of "the US appeasement of Islamists", huh? That's what everybody BUT CLINTON figured. I wonder if he has yet.
Thanks for your input, SAM.
These politicians would like to forget Al Qaeda's declaration of war on our country.
It is an Inconvenient Truth!
They will always accuse our government of torture until a president from the Democratic Party does the same thing. Then it would be called "protecting the country".
Copperheads!!!!!!!!!!
Zin;
I can provide you the uncontestable documents and provs that the current situation and USA blockade in IRAQ is and was from the first days something already calculated and prepared.
You don't need to torture to get the key intelligences or to find out where is OSAMA and his ilks,
January 2007, our Resistance organization provided a list of 32,000 Quds and Alqaida members in the Iraqi administration key positions,
in that list, we provided the full details of those very dangerous personalities, their account Nu., Telephone Nu., Adress in Iraq and Iran, their Staff Nu. and their Military Immatricules, their functions, the full details of their CRIMES from at least 5 ryears ago,
For EX.; Sheibany called also Mohandess,(this man exploded US embassy of Koweit at 1998 which left 5 killed and much more injured, he had killed at least 150 US soldiers in Iraq with EIP road side Armore penetrating bombs, he was the Governor of a province in Al-Maliki's administration,
We brought all these informations to public in a Press conference, I can provide you the Details and the links.
I can provide you the very sensitive docs,
Zin; you don't need to torture any body,
The several millions of the Victims of the Terrorism in IRAQ and IRAN and Libanon and Palestain, are ready to give you all the intelligences that any anti terrorist Organization will be delighted to have.
Zin;
the Major Barrage of the war against the Islamism terrorism is not Iran or Al-Qaida, it's the west, from USA to london and Germany who is the country of the Islamism intelligence services.
Iran is the Generator and producer of the Terror,, but, USA and EU countries are the clients, and what a fidel client!!!
SAM
Freedomnow: Exactly right. And I blame the protection of the Dems on the media.
SAM: WHY WHY WHY? You say there are millions who'll tell the truth, but ALL THEY HAVE TO DO is get ONE journalist of any credibility and that should do it. WHY are they not telling our journalists? I know you've explained some of this at FPM, but I still don't understand!!
Aidez Moi!!
"Torture", aka waterboarding, is reported to have been used exactly 3 times. Not by the military, but by the CIA. Geneva Conventions have to dog in this fight.
Teddy, the swimmer, Kennedy is a dispicable human being. His brain is addled by alchohol abuse all these years.
Z,
Life became more fun when I finally embraced leftist reasoning.
Now, when I encounter a leftist spewing some inane crap (as leftists often do), I punch them in the face for offending me and chide them not to continue the cycle of violence as I stomp on their heads.
FreeThinke says
SAM obviously believes that OUR government and other Western governments are deliberately THROWING the FIGHT to the Islamists. [I am assuming SAM does not subscribe to the crackpot theory that President Bush or any of his entourage had foreknowledge of or were COMPLICIT in the 911 attack.]
Let us stipulate for the sake of argument that what SAM says is true.
As Z asks so vehemently, the question is WHY? WHY WHY?
Several possible reasons come to mind
1) Absolute INCOMPETENCE on the part of our current regime. Good intentions fueled by false intelligence led us into the muck and mire of a no-won situation.
2) COWARDICE on the part of our administration–––the fear that if we fight to WIN, we will incur such disapproval and hatred from the "world community" that we are sure to be overrun, overwhelmed, subjugated and enslaved to the rule of barbarians willing to commit SUICIDE in wholesale lots just to spite and defeat us.
3) CONSPIRACY of ultra-high-powered International Industrialists, who know no allegiance to ANY particular country, working in tandem with terrorists and tinpot dicators of Turd World nations to subvert and ultimately destroy the sovereignty not only of the United States, but of every nation in the world in order to bring about Worldwide Socialism with the Master Industrialists, Scientists, Financiers and their coterie of lickspittles [i.e. Lanny Davis, James Carville, Paul Begala, Mandy Grunwald, Sid Blumenthal, George "Steppinupalas," et al. functioned as "lickspittles" to the Clintons] ruling and exploiting everyone in the world to serve their enormous greed and insatiable lust for power.
What the High-Powered Industrialists, Scientists and Entrepreneurial Elites plan to do with the Islamists once they are no longer useful is as interesting, mysterious and unanswerable a question as trying to find out what plans Hitler might have had had for the non-Aryan Japanese had the Axis powers been victorious in WWII?
I don't find any of those arguments particulalry persuasive, just plausible, but I put them out there hoping someone can come up with a series of more logical, credible reasons as to why we are casting away hundreds of billions in blood and treasure with no clear-cut objective that defines VICTORY.
Zin;
you said;
SAM: WHY WHY WHY? You say there are millions who'll tell the truth, but ALL THEY HAVE TO DO is get ONE journalist of any credibility and that should do it. WHY are they not telling our journalists? I know you've explained some of this at FPM, but I still don't understand!!
===========================
Zin;
You yourself said that when you were in France, you were seeing the Iranian students on revolt on the FRENCH TV, but never in the US TVs.
Yes Zin; USA is the free country, the most free country, to get and make money, and the one who has money can have more influence on the medias,
Look at SOROS, how many medias are under his direct and undirect control?
The free medias also should have the money to continue;
Just imagin that you have 100 posters and 1 thousand of visitors per day, so what can you do, you have to employ someone, and how are you going to paye his or her payeroll, by selling some spaces of annoncement to the publishers, if you stay at this level, yes you can keep your independence, but if you want to gain money, and more money, and more and more, you should transforme your blog to a business tool, and I leave you to imagin the next steps.
Well, this was to tell you that, the journalists are no longer the freelance or free and curious pionneers on reseach of the scoops, they are the employees who are paid to prepare a piece of paper and a picture to fullfile a period of time, and this is the most innocent case of the journalism of our time,
But the reality of the field is something else, there is no journalism or journalist, If it exist, their work will not be printed or shown on the medias,
Well, I had to started to say that, there is no free medias, free of the influence of money.
We have the news generator boxes.
If you have the media in your control, you will have the destiny of the people in your hand, and the Government and everything.
If I tell you that, the Islamism and terrorism can be resolved in less than six months, without your superforce intervention, and I prov it and show it to you and the whole world,
28 of JUNE we have a Rally and Meeting in Paris to support Maryam Rajavi and the Resistance,
You and all your posters, you'r invited, If you find less than 50,000 people in our PARIS Rally of 28th of JUNE, 50,000 in the same place, shouting one SLOGAN, with at least 200 Parliamentaries, I will tell you I myself that there is no hope and the Anti-Islamist Resistance is a lie, if they were less than 50,000 people in the same place, (Tmmerman tried last year and he had less than 150 individuals who were fighting and insulting each other, and he was promissed 500 MUSD$ if he could gather only 1000 who agrees on only one agenda).
I'll do my best to be there, and I'll provide you all the facilities to meet the responsibles of the Resistance.
But, you will see a few TV medias reflecting that, Because keeping Islamism threat on power is a very good business for some individuals who are governing the west, and they don't care if there is the thousands of death per day, and it will be the millions of deaths if Ahmadinejad purchases the nuke, they will be even more happy,
Look at your President; if your state department could lable his president, he was labled terrorist, too, why, Because he dared to tell that, "the Democracy in the Islamic countries will Guarantee our security in USA",
Well, your Dems want to heat themselves, and they put the fire on the world, just to heat themselves!!!
To gain money, they treat with the Mullahs, and they Lable our resistance Terrorism, no matter if Ahmadinejad gets the nuke to fire the planet.
All the anti-wars and the Pacifists without exception are the CRIMINELS and Islamist's proxies who are preparing a huge nuclear war.
We can stop this lethat threat of the Islamic NUKE power with the least price, and even with no foreign intervention, but, after that Ahmadinejad tests his warehead, the world should face a nuclear HITLER which is 100 times more enraged and more dangerous.
So, this is a war dear zin; this is a war that we have accepted from 30 years ago till now, this is the war between the people and the DEVIL, and you'r welcome in this war.
You know the History of the city of SODOM and GOMORE and the Prophet of GOD and the destruction of that corrupted civilization?
After the Prophets, GOD stopped to send anymore, GOD has put us, the human beings to recognize the GOOD and BAD and make our own choice, to fight or ,,,,,
SAM
Interesting that morality suddenly grips the left the minute that our national security is at stake!
I simply can't get all worked up about interrogation techniques applied to these scum who shouldn't come under the Geneva Conventions anyway (Why did GWB ever say that they should?).
Call me hard-hearted Hannah if you like. I care more about Americans than I do about the enemy.
I'm actually with the Left on this one. Torture should always be strictly illegal, and every person involved in either approving or torturing should be tried in a court of law.
Recent revelations that Dick Cheney, et al, approved "harsh interrogation methods" for certain high-profile cases should be sufficient grounds for an investigation and trial. I would not be averse to seeing a special prosecutor investigate.
And its not that I'm against the use of torture to extract information from terrorist scumbags. I'd personally torture a terrorist in a heartbeat if I thought I could prevent an attack.
Its' just that to torture someone requires the torturer to be CERTAIN that the person receiving torture has the information sought and that it's divulgence WILL prevent an imminent catastrophe. And they should have to be morally CERTAIN enough to have to KNOWINGLY act ILLEGALLY and rely on a jury of their peers to ACQUIT them of behaving improperly.
Because when you torture someone and prevent a catastrophe, NO sane jury will convict you for having done anything improper. A political witchhunt could result in Cheney being imprisoned, but thats a risk I'm sure he was aware he ran in altering anti-torture policies. I WANT public officials to sweat at the thought of approving the torture of anyone, even a terrorist scumbag.
The Left is fixated upon regulating all human activity in terms of LAW.
But unfortunately, LAW is a very RIGID and uncompromising thing...
...fortunately, the quality of mercy is NOT strained...
...and so, let the law be strict regarding torture, and let us learn to rely upon the 'mercy' (and good judgement) that the jury/legal system affords us.
"approving" of torture? how ingenuous of Mr. Kennedy. "Approving" in many senses carries no flavor of "enjoyment;" sometimes it merely means green-lighting a method to get a job done, no matter how distasteful.
I get the others' thinking, to a degree, but their confusion stems from trying to extend to all PEOPLE in the world, the rights of American citizens... and that, regardless of whether or not the persons involved approve (har) of American rights or want them.
Farmer John; Is it worthwhile giving them water down the mouth just in case they do have something to tell? Do we afford our mercies (as wry mouth said below your comment) to all?
If there is a law which strictly forbids us using any tactic other than a 'little chat' with a suspected terrorist or anyone with any information, and they KNOW this...aren't we giving them a tremendous way out?
FJ, first, we don't know what "harsh" consists of. Coersion is not in and of itself, IMO, torture.
Methods like sleep deprivation, or waterboarding, are conditions our own soldiers are subjected to, during training.
Slapping someone around, is not IMO, torture. Nor is humiliation.
Breaking bones, or doing permanent physical damage is torture.
Perhaps just giving a prisoner a few drinks or a drug to break down a prisoners resistance, and inhibitions is the way to go, you know, like happy hour.
Whatever, here we go, once again telegraphing to the enemy what we're NOT willing to do in defense of our country and punishing or holding up to ridicule, the Vice President of the United States in the process.
If fighting this war weren't so serious, all this would be laughable. It's like a bad comedy being played out for the world, and those who have to make these decisions in the effort to spare American lives, are in the crosshairs.
Frankly, we don't have to be apprised of every aspect of fighting this war. Because when we are, so is the enemy.
We can sit here, in judgment, and play armchair general until the cows come home. I only know one thing, It's a hell of a way to win a war.
Pris
My mind keeps going to the water torture of Mary Jo Kopechne. How Kennedy can even say WATER and TORTURE in one sentence is revealing.
Pris...breaking bones, permanent damage; torture, not good. We could get information from truth serums, etc., which might be better than any torture (if what they say is right and people make up lies to get the torture to stop!?) Is a truth serum or other drug like that considered illegal, too?
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that I wouldn't torture an American citizen. If I knew that an American citizen had a little girl captive in a dungeon that would die unless I learned of her location, you can bet I'd be kicking him in the nuts 24/7 extracting the info out of him.
But no, I wouldn't just "arrest" someone and start kicking them in the nuts on the 'suspicion' that it 'could be the guy'...
Going "physical" on a suspect is a line that can and usually does routinely in law enforcement. But 'waterboarding' is not.
And if I'm sure enough to waterboard someone, I'm sure enough to hang them from a meathook and attach electrodes. Once I know the perp's guilty, I'll do whatever it takes to get the info out of him, regardless of the physical harm he suffers and potential legal consequences that might result.
Has anyone ever read Joseph de Maistre's panegyric to the executioner in his St. Petersburg Dialogue?
All pain is a punishment, and every punishment is inflicted for love as much as for justice.
FJ! I lived in Paris for four years and took French every day and couldn't read the stuff you linked. DO YOU?
So, punishing a suspected terrorist is for the love of America?...
Scenario: You have four guys all of whom could be the one you know for sure has a plot to destroy Cleveland. What do you do, FJ?
I think we do know that 'harsh' includes waterboarding. And no, I don't think that waterboarding is 'just another technique like sleep deprivation'. Because the US Army Manual documents what is 'acceptable' treatment, and the so-called 'harsh methods' are NOT included in it.
And no, I would not give 'covert' organizations sanctions to operate above and beyond those I'd give my legitimate and 'official' fighters. At least, not UNLESS what they did was done ompletely in the field... and NOT under the 'safe' conditions described under "Extreme Rendition" or other similar programs.
Find out which of the four guys it is, and then (if the situation is imminent) begin working the ONE guy over.
And no, I read 'translations' of de Maistre... only I couldn't find one to post at the moment...
So, punishing a suspected terrorist is for the love of America?
Not to sound too morose, but no. I just like the look in there eyes when they get what's coming to them. I like to feed my own sense of power... ;-)
Here are some translations of some of Joseph de Maistre's other works. I think I read a summary of his panegyric in one of my other sources... probably Isaiah Berlin...(who quote de Maistre a lot). After all, de Maistre was the 'original' conservative...
FJ..aha..so it's love for YOURSELF! :-)
Thanks for the links..will look into them.
HOW DO YOU FIND OUT WHICH IS THE GUY WITH THE INFO, FJ? HOW? The bomb's ticking and you've got four guys....GO!
FreeThinke;
you said
SAM obviously believes that OUR government and other Western governments are deliberately THROWING the FIGHT to the Islamists. [I am assuming SAM does not subscribe to the crackpot theory that President Bush or any of his entourage had foreknowledge of or were COMPLICIT in the 911 attack.]
===============================
FT;
I had answered your Question and your doubt before that you ask them;
Look at the threads of yesterday, you will find my claims about 911.
But about your post and your Otopsy of the world's politics concerning the threat of Islamism, I can tell you that, yes, it's a mixture of all that you enumerated, covered by the Irresponsability of the decieders.
You'r very Educated, but, very innocent, I'm sorry to tell you that,
I don't want to loose our discusion on the side roads of the side explanations,
BUT, I Assure you that the Problem of the Islamism can be resolved in less than six months if we are freed to do that.
Well, I see that you'r laughing and you don't believe me,
Attention, I said that the problem of the Islamism, I mean that the threat and the progress of the Islamism, and not the Fenatic Jihadist.
FT, you know that to change the mentality of the people, you need at least one generation of time, but, we can stop their prolifiration immediatly.
Well, I explain, An Islamist, alone, with no ARM and EXPLOSIF has no danger, you can even shit in his mouth and he will tell you thank you sir, But, Several thousands of Islamists with the possibility of a reach country and with no resistance from the International community, is IRAN of Ahmadinejad with the Nuclear Bomb.
So, we the Iranian people, we are able to reverse the situation if our Resistance is allowed to Organize the changeover.
But, We Our Resistance Organization Banned and Restricted by the US and EU Powers, and they admit themselves that, the reason why we are restricted and banned because they(the western world) hope to soften slitly the behavior of the MULLAHS.
Your State Dept. Had repeated all the times that they offer the incentives to IRAN for their behavior CHANGE, and they(USA and EU) are ready to Warantee the power of the Islamists if they accept to change only and only their behavior.
What CARTER DID?
If you Google Carter Khomeiny Agreement of Alger of Jan. 19th of 1981, you will see that, USA by the signature of Carter engage to safeguard the Mullahs regim Against all kind of regim change for 20 years,
The Agreement is something around 19 pages(the disclosed part), look at this agreement yourself, and from that date, USA has fullfiled his part of agreement, the price was several hundreds of death and destruction of your people, and the DAILLY executions of my People, and it continues till now,
Well, very dear FT, this kind of Agreement, how do you evaluate it, and where do you place it in your analysis.
Infront of the WHY,WHY,WHY of Zin, you answer by the several theoretical analysis, But, I'm poor and Unknowledged, I have only my deaths to count,
SAM
Separate 'em and begin questioning. Threats, questions, a fake execution and a lot of in your face standard interrogation techniques... standing on a box... awkward positions... but nothing outside of the field manual.
Eventually someone is going to break and finger the 'leader'. I'll probably even get an 'admission' from the person that has the info I need... before I go to work on them.
...and what's wrong with love for myself? ;-)
Nietzsche, WtP
‘the world is Will to Power - and nothing else besides’
Where do you think a person's sense of justice comes from, anywho?
I'm not saying that I'll get the info before the bomb goes off. What I'm saying is, that my conscience will be clean regardless if, or if not, the bomb ever goes off.
FJ!! Your conscience would be clear that you did everything you could when you did NOT? Your conscience would be clear that you avoided 'kicking someone in the nuts' as you so delicately put it (!) in case he wasn't the bad guy...but, heck..we lost CLEVELAND?
And no, there is nothing wrong with loving yourself. Especially YOUR self..it's pretty good, from what I can tell!!!
I'm weakening, but ONLY a little. That standing on a box doesn't sound too much fun. What else can they do, legally?
And "The world is Will to Power".....man, THAT is something to think about. How can one discount that? wow.......hm
Zin;
I think that your posters have seen too much terrorists in the Holywoodian Films!!!
SAM
Iran regime Top Threat To Iraq, U.S. Says
Saturday, 12 April 2008
WASHINGTON (AFP) — Recent violence in Basra has convinced the administration of President George W. Bush that Iran and not Al-Qaeda is now the primary threat to US interests in Iraq, The Washington Post said Saturday.
Citing unnamed senior US officials, the newspaper said this view has sparked a broad reassessment of Washington's policy in the region and prompted Defense Secretary Robert Gates to speak about Tehran's "malign" influence there.
During their Washington visit, General David Petraeus, the top US military commander in Iraq, and Ambassador Ryan Crocker barely mentioned Al-Qaeda in Iraq but spoke extensively of Iran, the paper said.
With "Al-Qaeda in retreat and disarray" in Iraq "we see other obstacles that were under the waterline more clearly .. The Iranian-armed militias are now the biggest threat to internal order," the Post quoted one official as saying.
As a result of this new approach, the administration has initiated an inter-agency assessment of what is known about Iranian activities and intentions and how to combat them, the report said.
President Bush for his part reiterated, in an interview with ABC News, that if Iran continues to help militias in Iraq, "then we'll deal with them."
SAM
What can you do legally. Lots.
But the point I'm trying to make is that you don't have to make certain torture techniques 'legal'. If Cleveland is in jeopardy, even the most law-abiding Joe Schmo is going to resort to torture if he thinks it will help.... regardless of what's been "approved" in terms of specific techniques.
But if he isn't CERTAIN that Cleveland is in jeopardy, are you sure we want there to be LEGAL tortures he can resort to and apply to just 'anybody' willy-nilly? How productive would THAT be?
Dick Cheney doesn't need to approve anything. If/when the time comes to start torturing people comes, I think the boys from Cleveland are just as capable as anyone else in determining if/when the time is right.
And believe me, the guys who capture Osama bin Laden aren't going to need "permission" to question him 'harshly'. Especially if one of them is from New York...
SAM
I think that your posters have seen too much terrorists in the Holywoodian Films!!!
Guilty, as charged!
SAM: Our media will now be screaming that Bush "was going into Iran all along, and this is why we were in Iraq." and "How could he do this to so many innocent people? and why is he such a war monger?" wait for it.
They will completely sour the American public to the idea by Sunday night. Thanks for the information....as if anybody didn't think Iran was a problem already!??
FJ....that was quite a file...had trouble negotiating it, but I am seriously interested in knowing what we can do legally and I'll check it out.
After I posted this piece, I had one of the trolls from Jeffersonville, Ohio (again), which I rejected in moderation-mode again, call me EVIL SCUM and that I should be tortured for having "killing one MILLION innocent Iraqis". One MILLION. They have no facts so they lie and screech and name call.
And, really, unlike Mr. Z, I have never even been to Iraq. :-)
You're bending my mind a little to your side. I think that the TORTURE word just seems FAIR to many of us when we consider 9/11's torture to so many Americans, you know? It's difficult to think "Well, gee, we shouldn't TORTURE, that's painful and mean.." when we know damned good and well they'd behead us in a second. It's an emotional thing, and I suppose part of your point is that we mustn't give into that and do the wrong thing.
I those four thugs are standing on boxes long enough, I suppose one of them would give with the goods destroying Cleveland.........tick........tick.........tick.............
Farmer John, there is one flaw in your logic. How could anyone ever be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that an enemy combatant KNEW vital information that could help thwart an attack?
Do you REALLY believe that if we KNEW for SURE that "Ahmed Abdul al Hassan Poptarti" from Trashkanistan COULD prevent Washington, DC from being demolished, if only he'd divulge certain information, that we should NOT threaten to gouge out his eyes with an icepick, lop off his genitals with a dull penknife, sever his fingers and toes joint by joint with a wire cutter, tear him limb from limb, and then feed his bloody remains to the pigs in order to save our nation's capital?
A lot of "ifs" in there, and notice I said "threaten" which is very different from actually "doing," but I'm sorry, sir, IF such clearly-defined issues were at stake, how could any sane person consider the "rights" of a TERRORIST?
"The US Consitution is not a Suicide pact," and the Law is of no use whatsoever if and when it fails to protect the physical safety and property rights of our citizens.
Put very bluntly: Would I be willing to sacrifice the life and safety of a even a single American bona fide citizen in slavish obedience to the dictates of "The Law" or a FIELD MANUAL?
HELL NO!
~ FreeThinke
How can we know? Um, an combatant captured in a hot zone that is trying to kill Americans sound like a clue?
As for specifics, I say waterboard 'em and let allah sort them out.
FT,
I'm was not saying that I'd have to be "absolutely" certain... just certain "enough" to break the law...and be willing to suffer the consequences.
Which means I must be acting with some specific "basis in knowledge" and not upon a mere "suspicion".
Call it the "reasonable doubt" standard. I have to be convinced, beyond a reasonable doubt, of the suspects involvement and that he possesses the knowledge I seek BEFORE I begin to torture the suspect.
And yes, if the scumbag's had been shooting at me before I captured him... all it would take is some reasonable evidence that the person knew something or was planning an imminent attack with threat to friendlies, and the scumbag would soon be revealing his deepest most intimate secrets to me... as he slowly lost one digit after another to my rusty pen-knife and trusty pliers.
As for the Field Manual, that's for REMFs and enemies I've captured whom I have no reason to suspect have knowledge of nor pose an imminent threat to me or my men.
o.t. - nice link you have to my fern there on your sidebar...hehehe...
hey, nanc...I couldn't resist. I love how you talk about him...and I wanted to honor that and "your fern".!!
FJ...I'm tempted to post some of his stuff to me. Let people see the mindset, it's a good thing to see what kind of people will be casting their votes for Obama, you know? (heh heh)
Like the man says, when you give up your integrity, the rest is easy...you've done that long ago, haven't you?
starting to realize how much smarter I am than you...and all your pitiful little friends?
Lovely.
That smarmy troll-*ss-wipe wouldn't last 10 minutes in a serious argument.
It takes real "integrity" to troll other people's blogs and tell them how smart you are (backing it up w/ZERO).
You're right, Z. Definitely an Obama voter. He's got his leader's act down pat. They probably both got it from Mohammed Ali... only difference is, Ali actually had some talent AND knew everything he said was just for selling tickets...
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