Tuesday, December 4, 2012

Don't invest with WHO??

My company is a pension fund for a large church denomination. The movement consists of several hundred thousand followers with large splits in denominational beliefs. The largest part of the "church" has what I would refer to as extremely liberal beliefs, beliefs I personally find incompatible with a Christian belief. But they don't pay me to judge their beliefs nor am I to judge them as I am commanded not to do so.

When caring for billions of dollars of clergy and lay pensions, one must invest those funds wisely. The church, like other types of investment funds, has developed ethical guidelines for the companies in which they invest.

The current guidelines are no businesses involved with tobacco, alcohol or gambling companies, surprisingly, firearms are within the guidelines. With the movement fractured on fundamental beliefs I found it interesting that they have even this modicum of morality. That being said, I've been invited to several dinner meetings all of which are preceded by a trip to the bar with several drinks during dinner. Not that I mind. The pension fund is directed by its own Board which rules the fund like other business companies.

The situation I am about to describe is not necessarily coming before the Board to consider but was brought up by two voting members asking the Board to consider changes to the ethical investment guidelines. So at this point the Board does not have to worry about taking a stance on the issue, but there is an interesting turn that at least two voting members are pushing this agenda and it makes one wonder what the fate of this issue will be in the long run.

The issue? To add to the exclusion of investments any companies doing business with........the State of Israel.

How surprising would it be if these "church" people had no issue with supporting companies doing business with Hamas, particularly if they paid good dividends?

Z:   So, geeeZ readers;   What reason do you think could be behind not doing any business with Israel?  It's 'ethical investment guidelines' behind this............what's the 'ethics'?  Fire away.

and thanks to my friend who sent me this story.



beakerkin said...

The Church is infiltrated by Marxist Moronic antisemites. The problem is that Churches hire seminarians who don't read either testament but spend their time reading Mother Jones and High Times.

The classic interpretation of Jesus is that he is the fulfillment of Judaic prophecies. Adding a deranged philosopher whose espoused
atheism makes a mockery of a Church.

Find a Church that is more concerned about scripture than Marxism.

Constitutional Insurgent said...

I would inquire if it's a prohibition on any foreign government or governmental organization, or just Israel.

For tax and regulatory reasons, they may be unable, or have decided it's unwise to include foreign entities in their portfolio.

FreeThinke said...

The only GENUINELY "ethical" consideration when managing a pension fund is to make sure the fund, itself, survives and prospers to the greatest extent possible.

The only legitimate purpose of a pension fund is not to be "moral," but to provide pensioners with a dependable source of income that will sustain them through their old age until the day they die.

If the those in charge of investment truly believe that putting money into -- let us say -- "The Best Little Whorehouse in Nevada" -- or whatever -- is likely to give them the highest, most secure return, then they have a duty to invest in the "Whorehouse."


The only legitimate purpose of BUSINESS is to make MONEY.

Naturally, investors must avoid ILLEGAL enterprises like Murder Incorporated. ;-)

~ FreeThinke

Silverfiddle said...

I'm with Beakerin. They've been infested by leftwing cockroaches.

Anonymous said...

How many socialist, including Hugo Chavez, claim that Jesus was the first socialist? So many churches and Synagogs have their socialist. Why pick on Israel? Look at our current President and the multiculturalists.

Ducky's here said...

That pretty much mens defense companies and you shouldn't be invested there anyway.

Ducky's here said...

Is this United Church of Christ, z?

Or maybe Methodist?

Fredd said...

As the old saying goes, 'when you lay down with dogs, you get the fleas.'

Most mainstream churches have long since lost their moral standing, when they seded what used to be called Christian charity to the state. They are now in bed with each other, more or less. Sure, they have their squabbles, but resemble a long married couple that stayed together for the sake of the kids, and just tolerate each other for the sake of the money.

Churches and their affiliateds are lousy with contradictions. Just live with this reality, vote your conscience Z, and trudge on.

Ed Bonderenka said...

Nothing that I can add to beakerkin..

Ed Bonderenka said...

I cannot agree with FT, though.
If I will not personally finance abortions, I do not want my pension investments to do it. No matter how profitable.

Anonymous said...

FT understands finance. His points are important. Finance ought to be the focus of this discussion. What are pension funds for? To provide a dependable source of income for retired people. Anything that threatens that purpose just isn't good policy. Theology, morality and finance don't mix well.

Helen Highwater

Z said...

beak and SF...I personally don't know ONE Marxist-oriented church. Every church I have attended or have friends attending has nothing to do with Marxism. Or they, and I, would be running for the door. Believe me. Yes, we have the Jimmy Carter brand, but I don't believe that's even near the majority.

CI...I think the friend's account was pretty clear it was ISRAEL or I'd never have published it. She'd know if it were any foreign gov't.

FT...this think stinks, doesn't it.

Ducky's here said...

To provide a dependable source of income for retired people. Anything that threatens that purpose just isn't good policy.

How does avoiding Israeli related businesses lower returns? I'd love to see proof. I have a rule that I will never invest in energy companies, military, big box stores or fast food. I've had a very satisfactory return.

Never mind the utter disgrace of a church related fund whose moral compass is profits first . Calvinism meets the Randoids. Not pretty.

Anonymous said...


Ducky, "first"? over Christ? did you read some of the comments? Your Marxism is seeping into churches and that's the result...although, as I said above, I have never seen that in my own experiences.

You sound like you either don't understand investments and that they ARE for profit (though you seem self satisfied with your own) .... that profits come FIRST in a church seems to be your own conjecture.

Of course retirees must be taken care of...and, if possible, by their own investments, not by the State. A good thing.

Rita said...

FT and Ed are correct. Any type of investing funds should make the greatest return, but some have to have en ethical code. I would imagine church pension funds would be logical to adhere to an ethics code.

If this is a Christian church fund and not an Islamic church fund, what is their issue with Israel? This reminds me of the Democrat's platform vote on Israel.

Sounds like this company has a few people who are anti-Semitic.


Rita said...

By now i shouldn't be amazed at Ducky's hatred of capitalism, but I have to wonder if he invests his retirement funds in a wooden box buried in his backyard.

God forbid he actually make money through this horrible capitalist society.

Hope the neighbor's dog doesn't dig up your retirement funds one day Ducky.

CnC said...

I think more and more churches are just social clubs.
Anti-Israel and Christian are words that don't belong in the same sentence, except in this sentence!

Anonymous said...


"Hope the neighbor's dog doesn't dig up your retirement funds one day Ducky..."

Or fertilize it.

Anonymous said...


"Anti-Israel and Christian are words that don't belong in the same sentence, except in this sentence!"

There are Christians that still believe that Jews don't belong in the same tent. That still believe that the Jews killed Christ regardless of what a Pope said.

Then there are Christians that believe that Israel is a savage occupier, colonizer
and too aggressive (in defending herself!}

Then there are Christians who are always for an underdog...and think the Pali's are such. Even though they have themselves ( only ) to blame for the shit storm that their "elected" terrorists reign down on them.

Liberalism has infected the Churches too...Love thy neighbor even if he is a murdering scumbag of Israeli women and children on school busses or eating a slice of pizza.

I think I know what Bibi and 99% of Israelis would really like to do with the Pali bugs and Gaza. They haven't survived 64 years of constant war with their loser neighbors for nothing.

Rita said...

Can we make an exception to the natural born citizen clause for President and convince Bibi to run here?

Anonymous said...

Rita..good points about anti semitism and Ducky....for a socialist, he's sure done well with the capitalism he seems to hate.


beakerkin said...


When you hear Liberation theology you are hearing Marxism. Don't take my word two Popes dealt with this head on.

African Anglicans not named Desmond Tutu threatened to split the Church over this nonsense.

Read the late Zola Leavit's words on Progressive Dispensationalism aka modern clerical anti semitism.

Anonymous said...


"for a socialist, he's sure done well with the capitalism he seems to hate."

Him and all of Hollywood that should be taxed at 90% of any movie that get paid more than $5 mill for

And let's not forget Moore...who should be taxed for his carbon footprint for consuming more calories than the state of Rhode Island. Rich socialists....isn't that an oxymoron?

Walk the walk...not the talk...Sarandon, Baldwin and all the other "hip" snots that seem to think we're idiots.

Rita said...

Z. OT. Do you ever hear from Net anymore? If so, tell him I miss him.

Kid said...

@IMP, @All. palestinian vermin women produce babies for the sole purpose of being Suicide Bombers. How much more of a vile piece of shit can anyone be. Sorry Z, it is deserved.

I have no problem deciding which side of this I line up on when asked. Not saying you or anyone else does, just qualifying.

Kid said...

And before anyone asks me.

Many Civilizations throughout history have gone to war. Never in any historical record will you find women intentionally producing suicide bombers.

Japan had their Kamikaze, but those men made their own decision. Women and parents of all nations produced children with the idea that it takes people to defend a nations, but none of them literally intentionally created throwaway children.

That's something you can solely pin on the piece of shit palestinians.

Anonymous said...


"That's something you can solely pin on the piece of shit palestinians."

True: What does the sign say above the nursery in a Palestinian maternity ward? "Live ammunition."

A Palestinian girl says to her mommy, "After Abdul blows up, can I have his

How come it's so hard to circumcise a Muslim? Because there's no end to those pricks! ( Me too sorry Z )

Why do Palestinians find it convenient to live on the West Bank?
Because it's just a stone's throw from Israel!

How many Muslims does it take to change a light bulb.
None! They sit in the dark forever and blame the Jews for it!

Theres is some truth to the dark humor..isn't there? Come on Z...tell me you didn't laugh!

Anonymous said...

Last one:

"George W. Bush and Tony Blair are at a White House dinner.

One of the important guests walks over to them and asks what they are talking about.

"We are making up the plans for WW III", says Bush.

"Wow", says the guest. "And what are the plans?"

"We are gonna kill 140 million Muslims and one dentist", answers Bush.

"The guest looks to be a bit confused. One...dentist?" He says. "Why will you kill one dentist?"

"Blair pats Bush on the shoulder and says, "What did I tell you? Nobody is gonna ask about the Muslims."

Joy to the world...all the boyz and girls...3 Dog Nite...

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Rita said...

So what kind of "Christian" church has members who must despise Israel? It doesn't sound like the people have a problem with investing in Iran?

Anonymous said...

@ Rita

"It doesn't sound like the people have a problem with investing in Iran?"

Ummmm....Ask our lying UN 'ambassador' Susan Rice about that. ( Seems likes shes made a ton of money on Iranian investments )

Racism???? I know..it's horrible...she's only worth $30,000,000...imagine if we weren't such a "racissss" country?

Kid said...

IMP,Seriously. Why the dentist? bashar assad is a former optomoligist...

and why only 140 million muslims?

Anonymous said...


why the dentist?

What has 24 legs and 48 teeth? Twelve Muslim women! "

Could that be why?

Anonymous said...


"and why only 140 million muslims?.."

Kid...gotta start some where. I think that eventually it'll come down to that. But not while the Iman in the WH is there.

Anonymous said...

Given Iran's atomic threats against Israel, and given Obama's determination to see Israel destroyed, I'd have to say Israel investments are not a very good idea.

R. Murray

Rita said...

Imp. I love Blair's line. Hilarious.

Anonymous said...


Ya know Rita...I'll bet theres a hell of a lot of truth to that too.

Remember Reagans quip before a live mic...saying in 12 minutes we begin bombing Iran? Or something to that effect.

I know damn well that when these guys get together...all the political niceties and BS get dropped. And between themselves...they know the real solutions.

Anonymous said...

@R Murray

"Israel investments are not a very good idea."

Wanna bet on a Pali scumbag vs Israeli ingenuity then? 64 years later the Jews can turn barren deserts green..the arabs...can only tun the sand bloody. So who are the real losers?

Z said...

R. Murray....I have to say that that point crossed my mind, too, but I know the friend who relayed this first-hand and that was not the impression she got.
They did not mention any other country and Israel is not the only country in trouble. It's also a viable trading partner for many nations.

Anonymous said...


You get a PC..a working one yet?

I forgot to add the other day that if I won the Powerball....I'd buy you the most expensive cool IMac I could. And rent a private G4 to fly out there and teach you how to use it too!!!!

Anonymous said...

Hey...where is everybody?????????


Z said...

Imp! I could buy a Mac, I just don't want one.
We got rid of my tower and are running through Mr. Z's Toshiba laptop...it's working fabulously!

In a year, I'll get something...but, for now, nothing needs fixin', so what the heck!? :-)

Anonymous said...


I'm godsmacked....

You'll have to explain that to me...However my lady...the Toshiba is hands down...one of the finest PC's...pound for pound and dollar for dollar...one of the most reliable, excellent PC's ever. I tell this to everyone I know that insists on a PC.

They're like the damn Hyundai of PC's...excellent in every way.

We have one ine in my wife's office hooked up to a conventional monitor and keyboard...that we bought in '05....it runs the scanning software....on 24/7 and has never quit.

I love Toshiba's almost...almost ( lol ) as I love Macs.

Wise move.

Anonymous said...

Gute Nacht.. all you slackers....

Alles was Sie...slackers..LOL

Rita said...

Slackers? Depends upon which side of the country you live on Imp.

Now where are you boy? Sleeping in?

The Question Man said...

Bush gave President Obama an economy that was flatlining.
And Obama put it on life support and four years later it well on it way to a full recover.
Obama inherited an economy that was in free fall and Obama’s policies, the stimulus, bank and auto industry bailouts and more has created 5 million jobs. Obama’s policies are not hurting the economy, but helping. Men and women who are still unemployed is because of the side effects of the Bush’s 8 years of borrowing and reckless spending and it may be felt for decades to come. Two wars not paid for, tax cuts for the rich not paid for and a Medicare prescription drug program not paid for. Wrong answer. It’s being paid for by hard working taxpayers money. Obama’s policies stimulated the economy and put life back into it and we are well into recovery.
Romney is lying when he say Obama’s policies are hurting women and Tagg can take his best swing at me but I call a spade a spade. Romney flip flops so much that he even forgets and you cannot know where he stands on an issue from one minute to another. Meaning anything Romney say cannot be trusted. When is the Right going to stop blaming Obama for the flat lining economy he left Obama and give him credit for giving the economy a shock and bringing it back to life with the stimulus and bailouts for the banking and auto industry. Put blame were blame is and give credit where credit is due. The glass is half full. The economy is well into recovery and you don’t take a horse out of the race with he’s winning.
Radical Right Wing Extremists rhetoric that Obama took a bad economy and made it worse it not only a lie but a damn lie.

Anonymous said...

@The Q man...

"who are still unemployed is because of the side effects of the Bush’s 8 years of borrowing and reckless spending and it may be felt for decades to come."

Crap...total bilge..swallowing the fact that he owns this failed economy...it's 23,000.000 unemployed...it's 8% unemployment...his...HIS spending of trillions...on HIS watch...his so called "recovery" is an abject faailure...and you...you dope...still blame Bush for the Magic Ones failures?

Stupid is as stupid does. The only reason the One won.....was due to racial strife..Period. And the fact that the low lifes with the same old hands out after 50 years...found in him...a savior...that will steal from those who earn their money honestly...and give to the POS that are parasites and always will be.

And that's the 98% of those of "color", morons...who think they're owed by the rest of us.

Kid said...

IMP, the q is spamming all the blogs.

And really, if one is going to cut and paste a load of crap like that into multiple blog sites, wouldn't one proof read the freakin thing?

Typical lib brain excrement

Good God Y'all.

Liberalmann said...

Absolutely, Ducky's anti-Calvinism remarks are straight from Max Weber himself

Right Wing Theocrat said...

They want to finish what hitler started.