Monday, November 30, 2009

The Swiss say NO to MINARETS

FASCINATING UPDATE HERE: With a paragraph I 100% agree with here: The ban, in other words, does too much and too little at once. Too much because it becomes a very visible and easily exploited symbol of supposed European intolerance. But it accomplishes too little because it seeks merely to hide from view the problems that gave rise to the fear of the minaret in the first place.
See, this vote was important but it encourages goofballs like our Ducky (sorry, Ducky, but isn't this exactly what you're saying in your comments?...mistaking intolerance for hiding REAL PROBLEMS?).
Thanks for the story, Heidianne!

ORIGINAL STORY:
The Swiss voted Sunday* against any more building of minarets in their country.
Read about it HERE. Here's a clip from the article:

"They (the Swiss party pushing to get the minarets banned) noted that Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has compared mosques to Islam's military barracks and called "the minarets our bayonets."

Had you heard Erdogan had said that? I guess when you hear that, you're of a mind to protect your country, aren't you?

Here's an Islamic point of view on the subject: "It's a sad day for freedom of religion," said Mohammed Shafiq, the chief executive of the Ramadhan Foundation, a British youth organization. "A constitutional amendment that's targeted towards one religious community is discriminatory and abhorrent."

What are your thoughts? Have you seen beautiful Switzerland in person? Is it the Swiss who've made the minaret or mosque stand for something a lot of people are moving more and more away from in fear?

*As an aside for this post, I wanted to point out to you that most of Europe votes on SUNDAY so more people CAN vote. I think it's a good idea. z

64 comments:

Linda said...

I agree with the Swiss.

Anonymous said...

Isn’t it also true that many European countries ‘require’ citizens to vote? I don’t have a problem with voting taking place on Sunday, but I do wonder about a state requirement to vote. Suppose the ballot contained two candidates —both of whom present a clear and present danger to the nation as a whole. One doesn’t have to go too far back in US history to see the analogy here. Forcing a citizen to vote for an idiot would appear not to be in the best interests of the state. Up or down votes on constitutional issues would not seem to present this problem, since either one supports an amendment, or one doesn’t.

Bayonets of Islam, huh? Yeah, that makes sense. Not too long ago, AOW had some interesting facts about the number of mosques constructed here in the USA … funded, of course, by the Saudi Wahabbists government. Its good to see people taking the Islamic threat seriously; I wish we would.

Semper Fi

Mustang

Ducky's here said...

There are more minarets in Boston than the entire country of Switzerland. We seem to be coping just fine. The mosque down by the Greek Orthodox church near the Fine Arts is very attractive.

It would be more appropriate to use zoning laws and height limits since it avoids the distinctly bigoted motivation behind this particular legislation.

Chuck said...

Ya beat me to it. Saw this article and thought good for them. I thought about posting it.

Duck,

There are more minarets in Boston than the entire country of Switzerland. We seem to be coping just fine.

Are you joking? How many skyscrapers have the Swiss had used as landing strips?

Our tolerance of Islam has me coping just fine.

Go ahead, tell me how this all the fault of America's arrognace and intolerance.

John Rudolph said...

The Swiss obviously didn't install international law into their own like the rest of Europe did. And, Switzerland hasn't caved in to political correctness either. Good for them on all counts.

As for the United States, we too have forged international law into our own laws. Why do you think that we afford lawyers and legal teams to terrorists based on taxpayer's expense?

Thank the UN for this backhandedness. They are responsible.

Ducky's here said...

Sure thing John. The other Wahhabi state besides Saudi Arabia, Qatar, has allowed the building of Christian churches. But they are not allowed to have steeples or bells. This policy is a mirror image to that of the Swiss.
So Switzerland, after centuries of striving for civilization and enlightenment, has just about reached the same level of tolerance as that exhibited by a small Gulf Wahhabi country, the people of which were mostly Bedouins only a hundred years ago.
Look at the progress they've made.

FJ said...

"It's a sad day for freedom of religion," said Mohammed Shafiq, the chief executive of the Ramadhan Foundation, a British youth organization. "A constitutional amendment that's targeted towards one religious community is discriminatory and abhorrent."

So when is Islam going to change it's "discriminatory and abhorrent" practices and NOT discriminate against other religions, Mr Shafiq?

Talk about a hypocrite....

FJ said...

On Wahabbi "religious tolerance" in Qatar....

Hindus, Buddhists, and others are not allowed to practice openly. Non-Islamic religious literature is banned, although Bibles for personal use are tolerated.

FJ said...

I guess that non-Moslem's are "tolerated" in Qatar, but only to the extent that they pay the dhimmi tax, eh, duckmeister?

FJ said...

I'll bet that if Moslems volunteered to pay the dhimmi tax in Switzerland, they'd be granted the "religious freedom" to build a few minarets... but until then, they'll have to be satisified with looking at their watches when determining how to figure out when they need to pray.

Ducky's here said...

FJ, the point is that the fascists in Switzerland haven't managed to get much beyond the level of Qatar.

Whether they can sink to Saudi depths remains to be seen.

Anonymous said...

Minarets belong in the Middle East -- MUEZZIN LAND -- NOT in Michigan, Minnesota, Washington, DC -- or any other part of these United States.

They don't belong in the British Isles, France, Germany, Italy, The Netherlands, the Scandinavian countries, and CERTAINLY not in Switzerland.

All outward and visible signs of alien cultures should be banned from our streets, except for short-term visitors. Ethnic restaurants, educational materials and museum exhibits should be the only exceptions.

If you want to LIVE with US, you must learn to dress, act, think and speak like us -- or GET the HELL OUT!

Islam is NOT a RELIGION; it's a SUBVERSION.

America does not have to commit SUICIDE to preserve its integrity.

The U.S. Constitution is not a suicide pact.

~ FreeThinke

Z said...

Ducky, you say "There are more minarets in Boston than the entire country of Switzerland. We seem to be coping just fine. The mosque down by the Greek Orthodox church near the Fine Arts is very attractive."

When you start to understand the real threat of islamists in any country, perhaps you'll understand the concern of the Swiss and most Americans. When a people come into another country (muslims are sucking up amazing amounts of welfare money throughout Europe, by the way...and whole small towns have been thrashed by muslims all over France, which had built the towns to accomodate them but get burnt cars and police fleeing the violence instead), they might want to live by the laws..learn the language, leave if they can't find jobs, not push their culture on them and even threaten to kill them (as in England and other countries) WHILE they take their welfare.
Tell us if you honestly feel it's the aesthetics the Swiss voted against, please?
And, what do you think of "bayonets of islam" by a prominent muslim leader?

I'm waiting to hear how much welfare money Christians are sucking up in those Wahhabi countries, Ducky. Also waiting to hear more stories about building Churches.... That's a good one! :-)

Mustang, I know Germany doesn't require voting, no.

Funny, I heard an American Muslim speak about 3 years ago who asked the question "Why don't the muslims use their cell phones to set the time for prayer, why do they need minarets on the American landscape?"

indeed. This is NOT ABOUT MINARETS, FOLKS.

FJ said...

FJ, the point is that the fascists in Switzerland haven't managed to get much beyond the level of Qatar.

No, the FACT is that the SWISS are finally giving the Moslems a little taste of their OWN medicine for a change.... and just listen to how the little hypocrites squeel.

Z said...

Bravo, FJ

Z said...

Ducky, by the way....how would this be? "We muslims totally understand your desire to retain the beautiful Swiss landscape and we're requesting that this vote be upheld for the sake of good understanding between us. We will learn your language, we will respect this beautiful country which has welcomed us and even pays welfare to the poor amongst us."

Krefeld, Germany just voted to NOT have Christmas decorations in their shop windows...... So's not to 'offend'.

I'm beginning to wonder if it's German elitist atheists they're more worried about than Muslims.

It's the LEVEL OF OFFENSE TAKEN that we have to worry about in the Western world today; what is the BIG DEAL? Ignore what you don't like...then there'll be plenty more inclusion...happier INCLUSION..

does that make sense to any of you or is it just me? :-)

see you all later.

Ducky's here said...

I'm beginning to wonder if it's German elitist atheists they're more worried about than Muslims.

--------------------------

More than likely. If you read various fatwahs concerning Christmas it's not a matter of concern among Muslims so long as they don't have to participate in religious ceremonies.

Saying "Merry Christmas" in a social situation is quite acceptable. They are much more tolerant than the hard ass atheists on this.

FJ said...

mr. ducky,

I don't suppose you rcall a certain Lettre à d'Alembert sur les spectacles penned by a certain citizen of Geneva in 1758?

This has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with the right of every citizens of every nation in the world to construct their own social contract and live under the system of law they find most conducive to their own health and prosperity. You "one worlders" with your unequally enforced "universal standards" can go shove it where the sun don't shine.

FJ said...

...and as one knowledgable Swiss commentator noted, "Islam is not merely a religion," it's a religion that demands a certain precise and intolerant brand of politics to accompany it else it threatens violent jihad against any civilization which permits its' practice.

FJ said...

...besides, Moslems are endogamous and refuse to practice exogamy. That in itself is sufficient to void any potential social contract (Plato, "Statesman").

Ducky's here said...

Farmer, I am not contesting the legality of the Swiss vote. Of course they can vote the ban.

I just want these demented bigoted dipsticks to admit their motives.

Anonymous said...

Scotland has the best answer, they have a law disallowing mosques to be built in their country.

Consequesntly Islamists aren't scurrying to Scotland.

Frankly, if it's intolerant, it's justifiable. The Islamists make no secret of their intolerance. You have to fight fire with fire, or you lose.

Ducky, are there muslim enclaves in Boston, Bostonians don't venture into? Just curious.

Pris

FJ said...

Yes, keeping an organized bunch of demented bigoted dipsticks OUT of their heretofore civilized society is both demented AND bigotted.

But at least the Swiss are not as hypocritical about their practices as Moslems and their apologists, else they wouldn't be talking soley about OTHER people's shortcomings in the area of religious intolerance.

FJ said...

It's a little hard for Islamicists to convince others to believe that they "feel outrage" against the very practices Moslems worldwide advocate as a religious imperative.

Ducky's here said...

Ducky, are there muslim enclaves in Boston, Bostonians don't venture into? Just curious.

---------------------

No there aren't, pris. In fact I live in one. Lots of Syrians in my town.

We did have a guy several years back who was under investigation and ended up being executed for terrorism in Jordan but as far as a no go ... I have found them to be excellent neighbors.
Hard workers, they keep up their property, their children are polite and respectful ... a right wingers dream.

Ducky's here said...

... there aren't many no go's in Boston, pris. You don't want to be wandering around Geneva and Bowdoin after dark but aside from a couple gang controlled areas it's a very safe city.

Z said...

Ducky..you said "Hard workers, they keep up their property, their children are polite and respectful ... a right wingers dream."

isn't that a leftwingers dream, too?

Here, there are mosques a couple of miles away and the sneering that comes from some of the people hanging around there has the neighborhood on edge.

Ducky, Switzerland has every right to protect Switzerland from a body of people with no desire to fit into their culture. They have every right to try to fight what England's going through right now.......

You act as if all the Swiss who voted for this hate all muslims. Personally, I'd like to see a group of muslims speak out and say they, too, voted against the minarets...SET YOUR WATCH FOR PRAYER TIMES, why not?

And IF NOT, WHY NOT?

Ducky's here said...

Ducky..you said "Hard workers, they keep up their property, their children are polite and respectful ... a right wingers dream."

isn't that a leftwingers dream, too?

--------------------

Yeah, but responding to pris, right wing seemed appropriate.

FJ said...

You don't want to be wandering around Geneva and Bowdoin after dark but aside from a couple gang controlled areas it's a very safe city.

I'll take Geneva after dark ANY day. After all, it has "compulsory" gun ownership for all adult males.

Anonymous said...

Boston -
Historic old Boston --
The Land of the Bean
And the Cod --

Where Catholics worship Maria,
Muslims work towards Sharia,
Atheists tour all that odd,
And a few Christians
Still worship God.

~ FreeThinke

Ducky's here said...

Yeah Farmer that's pretty much true of Geneva Avenue in Boston, also.

They come up from Georgia and Virginia by the truckload.

FJ said...

In 1993 there were ZERO armed robberies in the Swiss city of Geneva, ducky. How many were there in Boston that year?

FJ said...

"They come up from Georgia and Virginia by the truckload."

Sounds like they really HATE culture, ducky. No wonder they move to Boston. The intolerant toleratti have practically "outlawed" it's preservation there. It's the new "melting pot" that never melts.

Anonymous said...

Hey! I LIKE minarets.

Beethoven wrote a beautiful one in the key of G-Major.

Haydn and Mozart wrote HUNDREDS of 'em. Nice, sedate, decorous little dances every one.

~ FreeThinke

Anonymous said...

SORRY! My little rhyme should have read:

Boston -
Historic old Boston --
The Land of the Bean
And the Cod --

Where Catholics worship Maria,
Muslims work towards Sharia,
Atheists tout all that's odd,
And a few Christians
Still worship God.


~ FreeThinke

Please pardon my carelessness. I wish I could erase my posts as others do, but I can't, so an occasional revision may have to pop up once in a while. - FT

Ducky's here said...

No Farmer, they truck the guns up.

See everyone arms themselves and the casualty rate rises in proportion to the number of guns in circulation.

Z said...

actually, Ducky, I think most stats will show the better armed the good guys are the lower the casualty rate...(Hint: the Americans ARE the good guys)
and, Ducky...Southerners are not redneck types worthy of your elitist insults...any more than your Northerners are deserving of being called snobs and prigs. well.....

FT, all you need is a Google account, I think....beamish explained it better than I could. It's a piece of cake.

Cute about the Minaret Waltz!

shoprat said...

It's too bad but Islam's violent history and in your face attitude toward "infidels" has made it inevitable. In lands under Sharia it is illegal to build a Christian Church. Maybe it's time the Muslims got a taste of their own medicine.

FJ said...

See everyone arms themselves and the casualty rate rises in proportion to the number of guns in circulation.

That sure doesn't explain Switzerland's armed crime and/or homicide numbers, Ducky.

I like the "no culture in Boston worth preserving" explanation better. You guys have nothing worth fighting for or preserving, so you're open to ANYONE coming in and setting up camp. Otherwise, you'd be bored out of your skulls. No wonder you watch so many foreign and avant garde films. I would too if the only claim to fame my home town had were a losing baseball franchise and a crock of fermented inedible beans. Oh, THAT or watching the Syrians in my neighborhood herd their goats.

FJ said...

FT,

Boston's no longer the historical land of anything. The cod are fished out, the beans stink, and the only thing left are a herd of bad breathed Syrian goats that graze in ruins of Fenway Park.

Boston hasn't had any culture since the Puritan's gave up witch burining.

Chuck said...

I take exception to the Ducks remarks about southern rednecks. I live in a small Michigan town and we have many fine rednecks right here, in the north, thank you very much. They are likely better people than most.

FJ said...

Well Chuck, unlike Boston's intellectual effete, southern rednecks actually have a culture that they are not compelled to import on celluloid through certain French and Iranian ports like Cannes or Cinema-ye Azad and experience vicariously.

Elmers Brother said...

Well Chuck, unlike Boston's intellectual effete, southern rednecks actually have a culture that they are not compelled to import on celluloid through certain French and Iranian ports like Cannes or Cinema-ye Azad and experience vicariously

I thought duhkkky lived vicariously through himself.

Law and Order Teacher said...

Z,
Ah, the redneck insult surfaces. Well, I resemble that remark I guess. BTW, my property is kept, I think I'm a good neighbor, my children are respectful so maybe some people would be as comfortable living in the midwest as he would in the mideast, or the Boston equivalent.

shoprat said...

Redneck: An old southern term for people who didn't own any slaves and had to work in their own fields, thus their necks were sunburned. Only it is demeaning to do your own work for a living, then the term is a compliment. Thanks for the compliment.

shoprat said...

Oops typo

Only if it is demeaning to do your own work for a living

Anonymous said...

""It's a sad day for freedom of religion," said Mohammed Shafiq, the chief executive of the Ramadhan Foundation, a British youth organization. "A constitutional amendment that's targeted towards one religious community is discriminatory and abhorrent."


Sad? It's a sad day for way too many years... when these scumbag islime mutts won't allow a church steeple or a synagogue to be built let alone stand in their O so tolerant countries. The hypocritical bastards can't see the irony of such obtuse and disingenuous statements? Islime is a cult...a political ideology no different thas National Socialism that prevailed in Europe from the late 20's to it's demise in the 40's. It's a political ideology that must be destroyed....starting with their lousy towers and then mosques...their military barracks. Am I "politically incorrect". It's exactly what 99% of you here are saying under your breaths. And it's what you know has to happen....Islime must be stopped and destroyed. Starting with the political idiocy called PC! It's not racist to desire freedom from these filthy liars and murderers, is it?

I see that they need no "constitutional" amendments to ban what they fear most...FREEDOM OF RELIGION AND CHOICE. These druids and neanderthals need to be excised from decent society...and the world will be a better place in their absence. Let's use our Constitution to outlaw and protect and defend our way of life from these savages. These knuckle dragging 7th century vermin.


Have you ever seen a "happy" Muslim? They are a joyless shitty bunch that want to make the whole planet miserable.

Z said...

Free Thinker...they live under no laws, and it's our laws which prohibit us from protecting ourselves which are killing us. And they've planned on that, in my humble opinion.

DUCKY: The Swiss army is allowed to take their weapons home on leave, and when they retire. odd their homicide level is very low, huh?
They HAVE guns, but had no enemies...until now.

Anonymous said...

"No there aren't, pris. In fact I live in one. Lots of Syrians in my town."

Ok Ducky, You say no, but then say you live in one. You contradicted yourself.

In any case, in every country where the muslim population exceeds 5%, there is more aggression and threat of violence if their demands are not met.

That should be evident to anyone watching what's happening in Europe. It will happen here too once the muslim population gains in sufficient numbers.

For them Islam comes first, and it demands domination through violent means if necessary.

So far, in Europe, the threat seems to have been enough and the Islamic community uses it to their advantage.

In Europe, leaders there think just like you, and appease and cow to those demands until now Europe is losing it's culture. It's just a matter of time before it will be unrecognizable as a European civilization.

The left has chosen to ally with Islam in a perverse way, because they're so anti-Christian and anti-American they take the side of our enemy, but this will bite them in their rear.

Like you they don't know how good they've had it. Good luck with Boston. You'll need it.

God help us all.

Pris

Anonymous said...

Anonymous, you should read Behind the Burqa by Gofaqah Youssef. It's very revealing. You'd be surprised at the merriment and enormous vitality that goes on beneath the veil. Hot Times in the Harem have no equal in Western Society. So, you are sadly misinformed.

The constant threat of having your eyes gouged out by dirty fingers, being cut to ribands with dull rusty blades, being suddenly thrown to one's knees and summarily decapitated -- or stoned to death by the whole community after being buried up to your neck in sand -- adds incredible excitement to these lives you think so dreary.

The women love it -- especially when the time comes for them to perform their duty to slit the throat of one of their own wayward daughters -- or turn her over to her brothers to be kicked and stomped to death on the floor of the family home.

Bearing many children so there will always be plenty of young lives to slaughter in so many intriguingly brutal and creative ways provides these people with an intimate knowledge of Allah whey-faced, weak-kneed, effete, overly-refined Westerners could never imagine.

Incomparably thrilling to live each moment knowing it may well be your last.

Allahu AkBASH!

~ FreeThinke

FrogBurger said...

Religion should be private so if the minarets is silent, it's fine. The problem is when there's sound. I don't want to hear prayers 5 times a day. If I wanted, I'd go to a mosque. I wonder if the libs would be that offended if Christian priest would "mike" the mass every Sunday so it can heard outside.

Ducky's here said...

Pris, Boston is doing just fine. Thanks.

One thing that is missing here is a discussion the homogeneous nature of Swiss society. Switzerland has always stressed that one must conform and be "Swiss". They are similar to the Japanese in that regard.

So the minarets are seen as an act of non conformity in a larger sphere of non conformity.

Surely you understand this, Pris because in your devotion to "freedom" you are quite happy to push your own brand of mandatory conformity. That's what the upset is about here. You and the rest want a Swiss brand of conformity and if you can't get it you want everyone you don't approve of to leave.

I'd rather have my Syrian neighbors than an evangelical next door. Not even a close decision. I couldn't put up with the hypocrisy and timidity of the religious right.

Ducky's here said...

DUCKY: The Swiss army is allowed to take their weapons home on leave, and when they retire. odd their homicide level is very low, huh?

--------------------

It has been the highest in Western Europe.

But going around carrying offers protection, just ask the cops in Washington state.

FJ said...

One thing that is missing here is a discussion the homogeneous nature of Swiss society. Are you referring to the homogeneous Catholic French speaking or the homogeneous Lutheran German speaking Cantons, ducky?

With all that cultural "homogeneity" going on, I have to ask.
LOL!

FJ said...

Ooops. I left the Italian speaking canton of Ticino out of that snark...

Desculpa me, por favore!

FJ said...

So much for the notion of "Swiss conformity".

What I like most about the Swiss is their "tripartite" citizenship requirements. Either your local neighbors accept you, or you aren't granted "local" citizenship.

Sounds like the muzzies are getting a resounding NO vote from the Swiss and the UN loving "authoritarians of indiscriminateness" (aka liberals) are being told to take a flying leap, for a change.

FJ said...

It's a shame we can't vote to get rid of ducky through jus soli....

FJ said...

Either an immigrant signs his host nation's "social contract" or he doesn't. And those who won't sign it, have NO basis to complain if no one wants to "socialize" with them and your hosts eventually tell you not to let the door hit your *ss on the way out.

"Fish and obstinate metics stink after three days." -- Obiwon Plato

Z said...

Ducky, that's absolutely not true, or it's changed drastically in the last twenty years!

FJ said...

It's half that of the USA overall, and even lower than Dorchester, MA, (19 per 100k) near where you live, mr. ducky.

And since when is Portugal NOT in Western Europe?

FrogBurger said...

Homicide rate in Switzerland: 2 per 100,000

France 4 per 100,000

Therefore Switzerland is not the highest in Western Europe.

I love when people mention things without facts and numbers. Typical of idiots!

Source: World Desk Reference
http://dev.prenhall.com/divisions/hss/worldreference/CH/crime.html

Anonymous said...

My GOODNESS!!!

Such carryings on!

It's enough to take your breath away - permanently.

Ducky's here said...

Swiss leader calls for Jewish cemetery ban
December 3, 2009

BERLIN (JTA) -- A mainstream Swiss political leader is calling for a ban on separate Muslim and Jewish cemeteries.

Christophe Darbellay, president of the Christian Democratic People's Party of Switzerland, made the statement in a television interview Tuesday, two days after an initiative to ban minarets was passed by Swiss voters.

The anti-minaret initiative came from the opposing party, the ultra-conservative Swiss People's Party and other right-wing political organizations. Critics say Darbellay is starting a "crusade," to attract voters by proposing similarly xenophobic measures.

Mainstream politicians and religious leaders across Europe have reacted with dismay to the anti-minaret vote.

According to the Swiss online daily Tagesanzeiger, Darbellay also wants to ban the wearing of burkas, head-to-toe veils worn by some fundamentalist Muslim women.

Reportedly, Darbellay said existing cemeteries would not be affected by a ban. But there should be no separate cemeteries in the future, he said.

The conservative party called for crackdowns on expressions of Muslim fundamentalism in 2006. The demand for separate cemeteries is an escalation, observers noted.

----------------------

Insanity is loose in the world.

FJ said...

Exactly. Why should anyone not living in Switzerland even CARE what the Swiss ban? They certainly don't care anout what the Moslem country's ban.