Saturday, September 10, 2011

9/11 in Paris

Most of you know that Mr Z and I lived in Paris, France for four years.  We were there on 9/11 and we attended church that first Sunday after the attacks on America.  I wrote this back then and have posted it here before but especially wanted to post it today, Saturday in Los Angeles, 10 years later.


When we arrived, every seat in every pew was taken, and only a small, narrow pew against the back wall had two empty seats.    We crowded into them, shoulder to shoulder with strangers.  We’d only been twice to the Sunday morning service here, and both times it had been only a bit more than half full. Today was different.  Today was the first Sunday after the attack on the United States.

We’d hesitated about going.  Would it be safe?  Wouldn’t this be the perfect target for terrorists here in Paris who could be sure it would be full of Americans?   Or maybe it would be empty because others, too, were fearful. We had heard all kinds of things those days and nobody knew what might happen next.

We decided to go.  The skies were threatening rain but the church was flooded with people.

There was no mention of the attack in the standard hand-out we were given when we walked in.  There was the normal agenda, starting with the organ voluntary, the page number for the hymns, the readings from the Bible, communion was to be held today, and there was to be a baptism.  A baptism?  As if things were normal? Where was mention of the attack?  We came to be here with other Americans, to share in the sadness, to pay our respects to our dead.  What was going on?

The bulletin also said that, at the end of the service, we would be singing “America the Beautiful”.  They’d not ignored the attack after all.  I looked forward to singing that with all these people today, even if we did have to wait through what I thought would be the interminable time it would take to give communion to so many people.  And a baptism? 

When the sermon started, the pastor mentioned the baptism right off.  He seemed to hold my opinion about it being unusual to have a baptism today of all days.  But, he also held the same opinion I’d finally arrived at five minutes before….what better message for today of all days?  This little child, Chloe, of British and French parents, was being baptized today. The world hadn’t stopped for her, even if it had most surely changed for all of us. 

Being here, being cramped, as the folding chairs filled the space between the last pew and us, sitting ramrod straight on that very shallow seat, becoming too warm and noticing someone had shut the glass doors to the foyer, knowing we’d have to wait at least a half hour just for communion to be given; all this was just about the very least we could do to honor Americans, but I was really uncomfortable.  Uncomfortable, I thought?  How dare you?  How uncomfortable were those people in the twin towers and the Pentagon on Tuesday?   I was uncomfortable? 

During the quiet of communion, I asked the young woman next to me if she was American or French.  “Spanish,” she said.  “Do you come here often?” I asked her.  “No, I just had to come today.   I had to do something, even if it was just this.  Today, we are all American.”   Did I dare thank her?  Should I be so presumptuous to speak for all Americans?  I couldn’t help it.  I did.  And she patted my shoulder.

Le Monde, one of the two largest French newspapers, had printed those very words on Wednesday “WE ARE ALL AMERICAN”, right across the front page.  Many European papers shouted that in huge print.  Today at church I found out it wasn’t just lip service at all.  French were here, Spanish were here, who knew who else was there?

The news had everyone in Paris worried and on alert, so my husband and I had considered not coming because, frankly, we were a bit worried about who else just might be there with us, hidden in the congregation.  “They’ll check my purse today going in,” I told my husband, “I’ll have to clean it before we go!”  “That’s a good idea anyway!” he teased, he who calls my handbag “the black hole.”  “Maybe I won’t take my purse today.”  “But, they may check ID’s, you'd better bring it.” he reminded me.  I was relieved to hear the reason he thought we might need ID’s on us.  I was afraid to voice mine.  But my reason wasn’t far from my mind, particularly when, twenty minutes into the service, a young man walked in and squeezed past me.  He was dark haired and rather dark skinned, and carrying a raincoat.  In his hand, hiding under the raincoat draped over his left arm, was a plastic bag with something inside it.   He used the moment while he passed me to arrange it more comfortably and farther under his coat. 

There I was in this overly crowded church, the front door blocked by at least twenty people standing because there were no more seats and this guy was hiding something under his arm.  Were they checking the men outside, too, on their way in?  Yes, they’d checked my purse, but barely, but they hadn’t checked my husband’s pockets or under his jacket.   There had been only two policemen strolling outside, and only one person inside checking handbags.  Had they checked under that man’s raincoat?

It was getting close to communion time and my husband, who’d given his seat next to me to a very old woman with a cane, was one of those blocking the exit!   I stood up, walked over to him and whispered “let’s go” and kept walking towards the door.  Should I say something about that man with the coat and the bag?  Should I create a commotion?  Surely, it was nothing.  This was church, a place of worship.  Wasn’t this the one place I should trust?  Wasn’t that the message I should have received from church over the last years, that most of us are good, to trust our fellow man?   Maybe the man had a friend there and was giving him a new book, that thing under his arm?   But, what if I was wrong?  Would I be responsible if that wasn’t a book?   Would I be able to live with myself, if I lived?   How could I sit there?  Was this just my normal, paranoid self overreacting because of the vulnerability we’ve all begun to feel since Tuesday?

I was sad to leave as I walked out early with my husband.  I wanted to sing that last song “O beautiful for spacious skies”, but felt concerned.  And responsible.  Happily, and reassuringly, the man who’d checked my bag was still there at the front door.  “There’s a man inside with a bag with something in it underneath his raincoat, are you checking the men’s things, too?”  “Yes,”  he smiled.   I couldn’t help thinking that he thought I was a nut case.  But it didn’t matter.  I was relieved.  We went back in.  I’d decided by then that, even if he hadn’t really checked, I had to go back in.  I had to sing the song with all those people.

Miraculously, in that crowd, my one space on the bench was still there.   My husband and the others continued to block the exit, but the service would soon be over.  Communion was finishing.   And then the singing started.  We all stood up.  Around me, voices cracked as they sang the words and people dug for Kleenex in their purses or pockets.  The old lady who’d sat next to me suddenly started crying so hard her shoulders shook  and I put my arm around this stranger and left it there till the singing was over.  At one point, I, too, was almost overcome…”America, America, God shed his grace on thee, and crown thy good with brotherhood, from sea to shining sea.”   Judging from the strength of those voices, it seemed that everyone had looked forward to singing that hymn. The church shook with the sound of the organ and all of our voices lifted to the highest rafters from which banners from each of the different United States hung down.  The recessional of choristers and priests and bishops and choir boys passed me, the Spanish girl, the sobbing elderly lady, and I walked out the front door.   We’d made it.  The man really did have a book under his jacket for a friend.  I really did have to learn to trust again.  And I got to sing the song with hundreds of Americans, French, Spanish, British, Germans and who knows who else?  It didn’t matter, really.  We were suddenly all Americans.   (end)

God Bless America...God Bless those foreigners who stood up with us at that Church service at the American Cathedral on Avenue George V in the 8th Arrondissement.  
Mayor Bloomberg might not be allowing clergy to be represented at the New York City Memorial today in NY, but isn't it wonderful that this 10th year anniversary is on a SUNDAY and that churches across this country will be remembering it with all the faith this country still has to enjoy?
"Why are you downcast, O my soul?  Why so disturbed within me?  Put your hope in God, for I will yet praise Him, my Savior and my God." Psalms 42: 11

Please give a thought to those who jumped from the Towers.......I rarely think of 9/11 without thinking of them.  And please remember the families that were devastated forever. God Bless America and please keep her safe today and always.  Amen.  
And please come back tomorrow for my 9/11 Sunday Faith Blog.


beakerkin said...

The problem were to come later with the rather cliche anti Americanism from those secular socialists. Chirac
and Saddam were buddies and the reactor Israel destroyed was colloquially called OChirac.

The BAATH parties of Syria and Iraq also have their roots in France.

Z said...

beakerkin, this shows clearly the heart of the people. I have a hundred stories about their generosity and kindness. And support.
Americans were told not to wear flag motifs on purses, scarves, etc.
Shortly after 9/11, I was at a grocery store and saw a woman decked out with an American flag bandana and with a purse with the flag on it....I thought that was weird and wanted to know if she was American or what...I got close enough to hear her talking and she was as French as they come.
Other friends said they, too, saw French women sporting American stuff ... we sure didn't; not that I had anything like that, anyway.
Moments of silence on the Place Victor Hugo for I said, I could spend today writing more of the French kindnesses to Americans.
I know very well what happened afterward politically; I don't care. I'll NEVER forget that the people were amazingly kind and respectful.......
I'm not here to fight for Europeans. I hoped this story would show something American never heard here.

Anonymous said...

Great story, Z.

It's sad we need wars (US revolution, ww1 and ww2), terrorist attacks to have France appreciate the US more and vice versa.

I can't believe it's been 10 years now. Time flies and for being very close to the Pentagon at the time, I will never forget this moment.

God bless America.

Anonymous said...

It says unknown but it's Frogburger here.

sue said...

Z - I don't recall ever hearing you mention that you were in France during the attacks.

I know someone that was out of the country on business at the time, and how he felt at hearing the news so far from home, and the frustration and helplessness because no flights were available for a few days.

When was the first time you came back?


Thanks for the well written story about your experience - I know it will always be a meaningful remebrance of that terrible day.

sue said...

Z - I agree that it makes the 10th anniversary more meaningful because it falls on a Sunday.

Joe Conservative said...

I love the French. Great story.

beamish said...

I would find it somewhat disturbing to be caught in a culturally stunted third world Islamic backwater like France on 9/11. All those Frenchmen standing behind you. God knows they weren't going to get out in front.

beamish said...

"L'Amérique viennent déterrer vos ordures" (America come dig up your garbage) - spraypainted on the gates of the Normandy American Cemetery and Memorial, March 2003

Anonymous said...

Osama was the most popular first name in the arab population for new borns after 9/11 in France, I believe. (I don't have stats, just what I read somewhere so I can be wrong.)

Anonymous said...

Beamish, one idiot doesn't represent the entire French population.

Otherwise I'd take your comments and say the USA is francophobe.

Z said...

beamish, we know you hate the French.
Think the whole city spray painted that, or do you just condemn them all?

Unknown by Americans is that the French also gave their dreaded German enemies acreage for a German cemetery I remember to be about a 10 minute drive up the coast.....beautiful with leaf-heavy low branched trees creating shadows over the graves marked by dark brown stones and thousands of red roses.
"Here lie German soldiers, many of whom did not pick the cause or the fight." I'll never forget that.
And I'll never forget the 3" thick book, page after page, of the GERMAN WIEDERSTAND, or's sad they don't teach that here. at least 3" thick.

I sat next to the head of the Austrian resistance during WWII at a publisher's weekend for the book above, written by one of Mr. Z's employees.....the Austrian stood about 5'5" tall! He honestly looked like Willie Schumacher! And we saw a film on that resistance;' MAN, that little guy packed a punch to the NAZIs, that's for sure.

The French offered the loan of their homes to us Americans, they had moments of silence all over the was amazing.

Life is nuance; I can't judge all on the actions of a few. Never could, never will. People are good no matter where you go.

Z said...

Frogburger, hello!
I just wrote virtually the same thing you did..! Hadn't seen your comment first.

And yes, but there are Americans who'll take that OBAMA information and think the French are naming their kids Obama.
They are NOT.

Anonymous said...

Z, Obama or OSama? :)

beakerkin said...


I will talk about real America first.Real America is embodied by Mr B, AOW, TMW, Warren and so forth. It goes about its business in Churches, Synagogues, tail gate parties, sporting events ( Not tennis or golf), garages, army bases, Walmart Parking lots and at construction sites. What makes America great are the ordinary people from all walks of life.

In America we have a self described elite I derisively call the Cocktail Party. They tend to think that the Mr B's and AOWs can't think for themselves. This type tends to congregate in faculty
lounges, Hollywood and big media outfits.

When you hear me jab the Duck you are seeing this in a microcosm. I am a DHS Officer and the Duck teaches wannabe pornographers who end up filming a wedding or two.

Chirac and most of the elite are educated and spend their lives in a socialist Cocktail party. Saddam
was merely an unwashed soul mate from the BAATH or Arab Socialist Party that has its roots in France.

The problem is that the ordinary folks in France seldom hold the feet of the mindless cliche anti American and anti semites to the fire. I can point to the antics of a so called French Comedienne running around dressed up like a Chasidic Jew saying Israheil. I can also point out that Pan Arabism
is also a French invention later championed by the Soviets. The Khmer Rouge also has its origins in the same place.

There is a problem with Frances leftist elite. Their ends justify the means mentality has produced a useless arrogant morally obtuse world view. No doubt a Sarkozy can break through every now and then
but the moral rot of this crew is astounding.

What you saw in France is what we see in America Tea Party vs Cocktail Party.

Bob said...

Z: It is always an interesting thing that people get along with people, and have empathy for another's problems. It is when radical ideologies dominate thinking that we have problems.

If in this world we could let people alone, and let them live their lives as they see fit, we could have peace on earth.

It is when radical ideologies like Islam control a population that we get disruptive and violent events, with the adherents trying to change the world to their ideology, or in the case of Islam, their religion.

Radical religions and socialist governments require control of a society or group of people.

In these cases the people always lose.

Z said...

FB, I had forgotten you were living so close to the Pentagon when that happened.
As you know, I love the French. YOu can meet some REAL PICKLES there and you can meet some REAL pickles here, too. For instance, Americans will walk into a shop and say "How much is that?" As if
A. The assumption the clerk speaks English in France.
B. How about 'good morning' first?

Then the Americans think the clerk's a shit (pardon the expression) because THEY're not friendly. Ugh, the things I"ve seen American say and do to the French! One time, a friend heard an AMerican SHMUCK demanding they make a CHEESE SALAD for his wife. The waiter's trying to tell him "there is no CHEESE SALAD on the menu..." very politely.
My Canadian friend said "Why don't you help the American talk to the waiter!?"
I said "HELP HIM? I don't even LIKE HIM!" And continued my cigarette and coffee and enjoying the cafe I loved so much.
THe only reason I felt badly for a minute is I should have helped the poor French waiter who was trying so hard to keep his cool as the American kept gesturing "off you go and DO THAT" with his hand in the air. "Mais, monsieur..we...we do not 'AVE a cheese salade.." OH GOD, I still remember that so well.
I'm sure the waiter finally came up with some facsimile, they would.

I nearly wept again when I would walk around the "Place" Victor Hugo after 9/11....the shop owners who knew I was American would spot me and look down right away, so sad......they couldn't look at me.
I couldn't go into my fave cafe I've written about before for fear I'd see my fave waiter Jean Paul and burst into tears. Because I Knew HE would. He was the one who said "If you and Monsieur Star (they called me Madame Star:-) cuz of the sun glasses) ever get told by the Americans to leave Paris for a while because of threats, you go live with my mother in Nancy, you will be safe and she would like to have you both" about bawling at the kindnesses.

Z said...

FrogBurger..OH MY GOD!!

oSama, not oBama....I'm so sorry! :-)

this is a real "GeeeeZ" moment, oops! xxxx

Anonymous said...

Beakerkin, as a French, I agree with your post 95%.

The root of the anti American sentiment is in the French media, the elite as well as the education I have received.

Then there's jealousy for having lost the international power and prosperity once France had.

Anti-semitism is another story. This started was back in the middle ages. It mutated into an anti-Israel and pro-Palestine sentiment. But let's be honest, the French catholic church was the anti-semite elite of the time.

Z said...

Beak, really?
So, now that we disagree, you leave me out of the 'real people' list I always lead in other of your excellent posts and comments(and for which I've always thanked you)
Because I lived in Paris, am I the dreaded Cocktail Party set now? :-) Really Beak..I think you know better than that.
I think you'll also see I'm not addressing the French gov't or politic here...I"m talking about the FRENCH PEOPLE>

I must write about the moment I learned what AntiSemitism and Racism REALLY felt like. I"ll make a note about that, to post it this week if I have the time to write it. I'd been treated horribly for a reason I'll divulge when I write the piece; Mr. Z was horrified as we walked home late that lovely Paris night after a very posh dinner party where I'd been given the cold shoulder after divulging something about myself. I was skipping with delight "Now, honey, I REALLY know what it's like to be rejected and insulted for not being what HE IS, for being something he hadn't recognized until I told him, this is GOOD, it's good to know how that hurt feels........this was one of THE biggest blessings I have ever had. NOW I get it."

I will write the details soon, I promise.

By the way, Beakerkin, yOu think Americans really do any better at holding our socialist leaders' feet to any FIRE? REALLY?

Z said...

Bob, beautifully said. I really do appreciate your comment very much.

FrogBurger, no doubt about it; I did hear about very subtle antisemitism while in Paris. I didn't see it myself, however. ..

We lived a short walk to the famous synagogue which was bombed in the 16th. You should SEE the security that's there 24/7, and I mean that. And, the way Christians knew it was Rosh Hoshanna or Yom Kippur in our neighborhood was that about 16 police buses of cops were parked around the "Place" to protect that synagogue. Barricades went higher, etc., on the High Holy Days. That was a very good thing.

But, yes, my American piano coach was fluent in French and said he'd gone to a dinner party where the conversation was about vacations...he heard someone say "so, where are you going on vacation this year? Our neighbors, THEY're JEWISH, are going to the MOST wonderful little town on the sea in Greece.."
Mark was left thinking "How the hell does their being Jewish have anything to do with vacation!?"
It's an odd thing...I believe it's more a curiosity now, left over from ANtiSemitism, in younger people; like they have no judgment but they remember Jews being talked about otherwise so they mention it as if you're supposed to somehow!?; does that make sense, how I'm describing it? They have ZERO animosity, they're just nice people and there are MANY Jews in France who only fear the Muslims, not the French Catholics, I assure you!

Divine Theatre said...

Thanks. I needed this.

Z said...

FB: Your being French obviously helps you see this so perfectly and you're so right, from the sense I got, when you say "The root of the anti American sentiment is in the French media, the elite as well as the education I have received.

Then there's jealousy for having lost the international power and prosperity once France had."

Z said...

Divine, just what exactly did you need? :-) (Good to see you here, I think!? !!)

Z said...

Beak, reading my comment to you again about the COCKTAIL PARTY bunch,etc.,, I can see it says what I mean, but it sounds a little harsher than I mean, sorry about that. I was just surprised at your comment.

beakerkin said...


You go to a real Church and believe in Christ so you can not be a member of the Cocktail Party. The only so called Christians who are there are ones who believe in Liberation Theology or a token Jesse Jackson or two.

Read that again it is not an attack on you. Read the comments of Frogburger.

Are the American people holding Obama accountable for his failures?
His dropping poll numbers seem to point that we are. The familiar voices on the right are quite vocal.

Even in Obama country in NYC the voices are getting louder. Even Blacks on the left are getting fed up. His only allies are big labor, big education and big media.

The question is how much damage will the usual suspects and the Paulites do to the nominee.

Z said...

Sue, yes, I was there then.
And yes, I think it's more than meaningful that it falls on a Sunday; particularly because they've barred religious clergy from the memorial services.
I know churches will be remembering tomorrow in spite of our government freeze out.

Z said...

Hi, Beak, and thanks.
What you excluded made it sound like you were thinking differently when you wrote that first comment, but that's fine....we've been friends an awfully long time and I think I know your heart, and you, mine.

And, yes, I've commented to FB's comments; all of which I agree with.
Read mine on the antisemitism I DID hear about.

My best friend in Paris was a Jew married to a Catholic shortly after WWII...a couple in their early eighties, TOTALLY sharp and very attractive still! I adored Micheline and wrote about her; maybe I'll print that here some day. I always wanted to see it printed in VOGUE because it's about French fashion and Micheline's experiences in the height of the French era of Saint Laurent, whom she knew, etc. I adored her and won't give the story away here. Suffice it to say this Jew and this Catholic were madly in love all their married life and reflect better the French scene than the negative stuff we hear so often.

Z said...

I want to thank you all.
I used to hesitate printing anything I'd written about Europe because most writers write longer than the typical blog post and so do I; I was thinking you'd not read the stuff for its length, but I AM going to publish them here, copyrighting first in my own sneaky but binding way (!) and hope you like them. I could write a book...or four, about living in Europe.

beakerkin said...


Cocktail Party vs Tea Party is a battle for the soul of this nation.
You have seen the phenomena up close in LA as I do in NYC.

Are we true to the wisdom of our founding fathers and heirs of the inclusive big table. Or are we to be ruled by those with contempt for the unwashed masses who see the need of government to order us around.

Of course you are not a member of the Cocktail party. Ducky would not let you in unless you started to go Rowan Williams on us and started waxing off about Gore Vidal

As we say in South Brooklyn Aint happening.

Cheer up

Z said...

"cheer up"? I'm cheerful.
I just don't like criticism when it's not deserved or a whole people are convicted for the idiocy of a few.

And, I'm watching coverage today, Beak, of the terrorist threat (FOX actually said the FEDS are using the word ARAB, imagine?)...and I am reminded of how many times Ducky reminds us that we're silly to even consider terrorism from Muslims...."there's no story here" "bed wetters" ... I suppose he always somehow believed that; how lovely to live in your own, liberal safe world of tolerance, huh? :-)
Gee, it's biting him in the butt now. But, sadly, it could bite everyone in NYC or DC in the butt pretty badly.

Brooke said...

A great story, Z.

I am certain that this 9/11 will be even more poignant than others. God be with them.

beamish said...

beamish, we know you hate the French. Think the whole city spray painted that, or do you just condemn them all?

I don't share Beak's enthusiasm for the Tea Party (as I hate leftists more than he does). We all know my beefs with the homeless KKK-wing of the Democratic Party.

But let us not forget leftism STARTED in France. ;)

Z said...

Brooke, I think so, too. I hope God's with us all and it doesn't get as poignant as the men the FBI's looking for would like to make it.

Anonymous said...

Beamish, even though I agree that the French revolution was Marxist even before Marx was born, leftism started with humanity. Jealousy, envy are human traits.

Thinking through feelings like the left does is human.

The welfare state is only the child of the knight protecting his serfs in exchange of taxes on salt, flour, etc...

The French "bill of rights" theorized statist leftism as we know it today but I don't think the underlying causes of it was born in France.

It's forgetting you had people like LaFayette there. Hell, even Jefferson, said the guillotine was good.

beakerkin said...


The Duck isn't on the front line.
What does a person who teaches aspiring pornographers know about courage.

You know the other part Z. I sit at the desk and do while the Duck talks. Let him talk as he digs himself deeper with each comment.

Mr B

I have severe problems with anything that tolerates the Pauls.
Reagan was once a socialist who wised up fast.

The Tea Party isn't Beamish or Beakerkin enough for my tastes.
I'll hold a seat open at the big GOP table once we toss Ron Paul.

-FJ said...

No need to hold that seat open, beakerkin. Kick out Paul, and there will be PLENTY of open seats at the Republican table under the empty big-top.

Rita said...

While I look at those jumpers and it breaks my heart, I also believe those people decided THEY would choose their fate versus letting someone else decide it. I'm sure that they continued hope on their way down that they could survive, but I also see them as brave. They chose to act, knowing that the probability of their act was nearly impossible, but they did not just give up. Yes, I know they were desperate beyond anything I ever want to imagine, but what I see in their fall is hope when there was none. Is that odd? Maybe.

Z said...

Rita, I have felt that,'s a very interesting point you bring up. Obviously, we're rational adults and so were those poor jumpers, but I think part of them DID think they had a better chance jumping and perhaps surviving than burning in what I hear was unbelievably intense heat....and nowhere to go but OUT into the fresh air.
It's almost like a metaphor; the light is always better.
I hope we can shine light brighter on our enemies so no American EVER EVER EVER EVER has to jump like that again..NEVER AGAIN.
thanks for coming by.

Z said...

Beak, do you, too, feel like Beamish thinks, that the Tea Party people are the "homeless KKK-wing of the Democratic Party." and socialists.
And Soc Sec must stop yesterday as should medicare?

beakerkin said...


The Pauls are an entryist faction in a larger movement. There is something wrong when a man who embodies America like Mr B wants nothing to do with them.

The Tea Party needs to clean the fringes. I am not as negative on them as the great Mr B. They need to get rid of the Paulites.

Joe Conservative said...

The Tea Party needs to clean the fringes.

lol! Last time I checked, Ron Paul was a REPUBLICAN congressman from Texas (since 1997). That precedes the "Tea Party" by at LEAST ten years.

Where have you been, Republican purity meister-kleagle? I guess so long as Paul supported George Bush and kept his hood on, you found his presence EXTREMELY tolerable.

-FJ said...

from Wikipedia

Paul became a delegate to the Texas Republican convention and a Republican candidate for the United States Congress. During 1974, incumbent Robert R. Casey defeated him for the 22nd district. When President Gerald Ford appointed Casey to direct the Federal Maritime Commission, Paul won an April 1976 special election to the vacant office.[23] Paul lost some months later in the general election, to Democrat Robert Gammage, by fewer than 300 votes (0.2%), but defeated Gammage in a 1978 rematch, and was reelected during 1980 and 1982.

Ron Paul has been a Republican his ENTIRE CAREER beakerkin. And in 2011, you've finally decided that he's "too extreme" for the RNC??? Wow! When did you and Team B gain this "Divine revelation" that he needs to go? Or better yet, pass whatever it was you were smoking over to share with the rest of us. Cuz it has GOT to be some really good sh*t!

-FJ said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Joe Conservative said...

You know what they call a person who holds others to a higher standard than they hold themselves?

Team B.

Z said...

Joe! "Kept his HOOD on?" YOu're saying that to Beak, my Jewish buddy?

What gets me about Paul is ALL the candidates say nutty things but everybody thinks his are more extreme.
I suppose it's extreme to tell every soldier to come home now, but I'm even starting to think that might be the way to go; and put them on the border.

Beak, I'd love a link showing Ron Paul and his people are AntiSemites by platform.
Heck there are Democrats who have anarchists like the morons who destroyed the port last week (almost none of which was covered by the msm because , well, they're lefties, they can't do wrong) and there are dopes like abortion doc killers who prefer the Republican stance......

You know there are AntiSemites among the's FULL of them, FAMOUS ones........

WHEN has Paul ever said he hates Jews?
Has he said he wouldn't go to bat for Israel? Since he's such an isolationist, that could you know?

Rita said...

I'm sure it wasn't your intention to start an American/French war here Z, but I find it fascinating what you experienced there so differently than how the media portray the French as hating all Americans. I'm hearing more and more that this is just not true.

Two years ago when I visited Italy, I was surprised at how polite everyone we met was. I figured there would at least be some American-haters out there.

And we watched for those "ugly Americans" too. I didn't see them. I did witness a very snooty Venetian shop owner look down with disgust at my sister, like she could not possibly afford a $70 scarf. I didn't have to speak Italian to recognize her disgust when she was talking with one of the workers as she glared at my sister. My sister had done nothing but admire a scarf in her snooty little shop and the woman walked up to her and said in the most nasty tone I heard my entire time there, "Madam, THAT scarf is 50 Euro."

My glare at her when she went off in her Venetian snottery rampage made her realize I fully recognized her snobbery. I said loudly to my sister, "Helen, let's go, there's nothing in this shop that is worthy of buying."

But I consider that incident one of looking down on someone she thought could not possibly afford a 50 Euro scarf rather than a hatred toward Americans.

I did not see one American acting "ugly" although I'm sure they do occasionally. My nephew and I were taking pictures of a bakery in Pompeii among a group of students when someone with a thick British accent said loudly, "EXCUSE ME, EXCUSE ME, but my wife wants to make a picture." while he was waving his hand at all of us. His wife was holding a small digital camera and my nephew and I had out our good SLR's.

I could not help myself. I held up my nice camera and said, "Sure, no one ELSE here is trying to take a picture." The Italian students laughed. But we all did as the idiot requested.

There are ugly people the world over. I don't think it's limited to Americans. I would hazard a guess it has a lot more to do with being raised in households of privilege and arrogance than any nationality.

Joe Conservative said...

Joe! "Kept his HOOD on?" YOu're saying that to Beak, my Jewish buddy?

David Duke ran as a Republican, and Beakerkin said nothing... Ron Paul, A REPUBLICAN of 30+ years has caucused and voted w/Republicans since before Beakerkin cast his first vote, yet he said NOTHING. Only when the man takes off his hood and shows his face, does Beakerkin cringe.

I guess since Paul has clout with a largely independent faction of the Tea Party, beakerkin see's him as "suspect". But Ron Paul has been a dyed in the wool Republican his entire life, and never has beakerkin said a peep... before now.

Ron Paul IS definitely a threat to the GOP establishment. And the GOP establishment (via Mark Levin & Rush Limbaugh) is seeking to eliminate it before it gets too powerful. When was the last time that the MSM interviewed the man who usually takes the #1 or #2 straw poll vote? Never.

Last week, Paul placed 3rd in the Maryland GOP Straw Poll behind Romeny & Perry and @ over 16% of the vote total. He placed 2nd in Iowa. Nobody covers him in the press.

I'm not currently, nor would I ever vote for Paul in an election. But I'll be damned if I'll give up 16% of Maryland's votes so that I can "feel good" after losing the next election.

Joe Conservative said... other words, this is an internal GOP POWER struggle. And the big money establishment Republicans are scared shirtless that they're going to lose control to the grass roots/populist Tea Party candidate backers.

beakerkin said...

Ticker has provided the link. Compare Paul's comments on the Gaza flotilla to Ducky's.


As a congressman you can fly under the radar. When you run for President everything comes out. The time has come to show Paul the door.

The folks at the Tea Party will tire or defending Ron Paul and toss him under the bus. The counter attack will be swift and brutal.

David Horowitz fired the first salvo.

Joe Conservative said...

...and Limbaugh and Levin are whipping up an "anti-Paul wind, which will soon become an anti-Bachmann gale, which will eventually become an anti-Palin whirlwind.

My friends it is that betray me; for mine enemy can I shun as the steersman the rock upstanding from the sea. _Theognis of Megara (575-576)

Joe Conservative said...

The folks at the Tea Party will tire or defending Ron Paul and toss him under the bus.


How'd that work out against Palin and Bachmann, beakerkin?

The GOP old-money is chasing all the new money and talent out of their tent. They're trying there hardest to lose in 2012.

Joe Conservative said...

We're NOT the Republican Party, beakerkin.

We don't shrink at the first sign of possible fight like RINO Republicans usually do.

Joe Conservative said...

Bus drivers beware!

Joe Conservative said...

David Horowitz fired the first salvo.

For which big money Republicans, the Bradley Foundation or the Scaifes?

Joe Conservative said...

You think David Horowitz doesn't jump when his "benefactors" call?

Z said...

Ticker's provided the link where?

Rita, yes, people are people anywhere around the world.

ANd OH brother, have I seen ugly Americans. Mr. Z CRINGED at some Germans we'd run into traveling, too (his being German, of course)....
I heard many Americans ask a question of a Frenchman in English and, if the Frenchman didn't understand, the American would speak louder, then louder. Oh, God, that was unbearable! Then they wonder why we're called the ugly American!? :-)
But, yes....all nationalities get weird from time to time!

I have run into that pretentious snobbery you saw in Italy...and in all countries. You did the right thing leaving; they don't deserve your trade.

beamish said...

Ron Paul IS definitely a threat to the GOP establishment.

Only in the sense of how successful the left-wing media is at persuading the general public that Ron Paul's Daily Kos-approved pro-Iranian terrorism / anti-US military stances are canonical Republican belief. Lefty Democrats have no where to go this primary season. Why not muff up the Republican primaries with Tea Party socialists?

We're NOT the Republican Party, beakerkin.

Precisely. You're the national socialist left KKK wing of the Democratic Party, homeless and throwing gay orgies at CPAC. other words, this is an internal GOP POWER struggle. And the big money establishment Republicans are scared shirtless that they're going to lose control to the grass roots/populist Tea Party candidate backers.

Populism having absolutely not a GD thing to do with conservatism. Yeah, the KKK wing of the Democratic Party / Tea Party "movement" is all colors of upset that the Republican establishment they never gave money to doesn't support their "give Iran a nuke" agenda.

After all, the last KKK wing Democrat President gave North Korea nukes....

Joe Conservative said...

After all, the last KKK wing Democrat President gave North Korea nukes....

...and the last Republican president gave nukes to Pakistan and India.

I guess the AIPAC infiltrators of the RNC must have been holding p*ss buckets for the Scaife family instead of keeping their eyes focused on the billions of borrowed Chinese dollars they were pumping into Pakistan.

Joe Conservative said...

Oh, wait, they only gave free plutonium to India. After all, Pakistan has it OWN secret breeder reactors now...

Joe Conservative said...

...of course, some of them aren't that secret anymore.

beamish said...

After all, the last KKK wing Democrat President gave North Korea nukes....

...and the last Republican president gave nukes to Pakistan and India.

Except that Pakistan and India both had nukes two years before the last Republican president was even elected (1998).

Searching back over the history of the development of nuclear weapons in Pakistan and India, both countries had scientists working on the Manhattan Project in the mid-1940s under a Democrat President, and those scientists returned or repatriated to their home countries to work on nuclear weapons programs in the 1960s. Pakistan split from India in 1947.

It's not surprising that leftists like Joe Communist aren't familiar with history.

Joe Conservative said...

You're right, beamish. No Republican Presidents or Administrations EVER aided Pakistan OR India to obtain nuclear weapons. NEVER.

And George Bush never promised to supply plutonium to India. It never happened.

Grow up grandma killer wannabe. There are more shades of grey than black & white atomic weapons test programs.

Joe Conservative said...

btw - Do you think supplying plutonium to India increases or decreases the likelihood that Pakistan will enrich MORE of it's own plutonium and share it with its' neighbors?

Just wondering how the "B Team" see's the world.

Joe Conservative said...

The obfuscation concealed from the world Pakistan’s “cold-testing” of a nuclear bomb in laboratory conditions in 1983 and the intelligence that it had “hot-tested” – exploded – one in 1984 with the help of China.

By the time Reagan’s presidency came to an end in 1989, Pakistan possessed a deployable and tested nuclear device. Much of the programme had been funded using hundreds of millions of dollars in US aid diverted by the Pakistan military.

The bomb could be mated to a missile or dropped from Ameri-can-supplied F-16 fighter jets, also given by Reagan in the mid1980s, and the nuclear weapons programme had become a shop window for the world’s most unstable powers.

The US deceit lapsed in the 1990s when President George Bush Sr cut Pakistan adrift after the fall of the Soviet Union; but this increased Islamabad’s need to develop and sell nuclear technology in place of aid.

Oh that's right. They didn't do any HOT tests until 1998. Right beamish?

Thersites said...

Beamish will wait three days and then get the last word in.

After all, if you can't out argue someone, you certainly can out wait him.

beakerkin said...


Just how many of you are there.

I am disturbed by this Joe Conservative persona.

I have never known you to be an antisemite but those comments are disturbing and speak for themselves.

I have no tolerance of bigotry and yes you know I fight KKK types, truthers just as much as I fight commies. I signed onto the party of Regan not the Paul family freak festival.

You can quote Voltaire, but nobody
is being silenced. If you stand for nothing the party means nothing. If you believe the Truthers and the Stormfronters are in the Paul camp by accident then
you are naive.

Reagan stood up to commies trying to take over a union in your amoral
world we let the Paul Family freak fest tarnish the party of Reagan

Joe Conservative said...

Those that make charges of anti-Semitism should be prepared to prove them. Oooops. I guess you forgot THAT principle.

btw - How do you think Perry's recent statements -

Just ahead of the next GOP presidential debate, co-hosted by CNN and the Tea Party Express in Florida on Monday night, Perry used his op-ed to expand on the explosive exchange he shared with former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney at the Reagan Library last week.

“By 2037, retirees will only get roughly 76 cents back for every dollar that is put into Social Security unless reforms are implemented,” he wrote.

“Imagine how long a traditional retirement or investment plan could survive if it projected investors would lose 24% of their money?”

...square with your claims that the average Social Security recipient gets his money back within three years?

Oh, that's right, like ALL your statements and charges, they don't square with anything.

Moonbeamishness. That's all it is.

-FJ said...

...and beakerkin, the public and private spheres are two entirely different things. What may be appropriate in a business or private or closed association like a club is NOT appropriate for an open "public" one... or one that purports to serve the "public good". What a "public" organization can and MUST tolerate are two entirely different things.

And I will NOT be called an anti-Semite for denouncing the influence of AIPAC or ANY OTHER political lobby upon the field of American politics. If you want to support a special interest like Israel, so be it. But as an American, I'm under no obligation to endorse their activities. I must only "tolerate" them.