'The real strength of the Nationalist movement
in Egypt…lay not with these Levantines of the café but with the mass of
practically unchanged bigoted Moslems to whom the movement meant driving out
the foreigner, plundering and slaying the local Christian, and a return to all
the violence and corruption which festered under the old-style Moslem rule,
whether Asiatic or African.'
Theodore Roosevelt penned these remarkably prescient
words in a 1911 letter to his longtime correspondent and friend, Sir George
Otto Trevelyan, reflecting upon Roosevelt’s post-presidency visit to Cairo,
Egypt, the previous year.
I found that fascinating.............here we are with Egypt becoming a despotic Islamist state when everyone was so excited about their supposed freedoms being restored after Mubarek.
Be careful what you ask for, I guess.
Do you think it's the faith of Islam which propagates these nightmare scenarios of its past or the kind of people who practice it, or...........what? Obviously, there are millions of peaceful muslims, but the corporate history is mostly as described above 101 years ago.....and the future..?
What do you think the future is for the Western world and Islamists?
z
54 comments:
Christianity came from a position of a state religion so intertwined with monarchy that at many times, it was difficult to discern who really held power. The faith and it's adherents intellectually evolved and found some level of harmony in interacting with a secular government and notions of liberty.
I'm not overly optimistic, but there's nothing stopping Islam from evolving similarly...except itself. I do though, think it will still take some time before it's practitioners realize that Islam is not compatible in a caliphate paradigm, with a global free market [at least in theory] and franchise for it's faithful. I would like to think that I'll see that shift in my lifetime, but likely not.
In many ways, the Islamicists are fortunate. They have an ideological "shield" that will prevent multi-nationalist corporate entities from putting local retailers out of business with Wal-Marts and box stores filled with cheap Asian products. This will allow local manufacturer's to actually remain productively employed and earn a living... unlike the people in America.
This is 1979 Iran all over again. The secularists and the Islamists join forces to oust a dictator, then the Islamists slit the throats of their erstwhile partners and hijack the country.
I think Silverfiddle has nailed it.
Sadly, we are so ill educated on the truth of Islam that we are doomed to see history repeat itself time and time again!
FJ,
I'm confused. From WIKIPEDIA:
"In Egypt there are three hypermarket chains; Carrefour, Hyper One and Spinneys in the shopping mall City Stars. There is also a Carrefour in Alexandria at the City Centre Mall."
Are you suggesting ,for example, that under the "Islamicists" such "chains" will somehow go away? Also aren't many products ,marketed in "box stores", manufactured in Asia, from Islamic countries?
Not "somehow" go away. They will, be turned into mosques.
There is only ONE corporation recognized under Islam. The "Ummah". And all "equivalent" waqf's must have "charitable" charters which serve Islam.
The hardliners want to go back to the Islam of the 8th century. The Sunni are fighting with the Shi'a to "undo" the corruption of Islam experienced under the "latter" caliph's and return to the variant experienced under the first FOUR righteous caliph's, "Twelvers" (Shi'a) be damned!
btw - Why do you think that the hard Left supports the Islamicists, anyway?
CI..no comparison. We're talking TODAY. Islam's been around a VERY LONG TIME...we're still waiting for them to stop the violence and stop the killing of those who won't adhere. *I knew someone would bring up Christianity's past!
But really it's not applicable anymore. Never really was
C'son Fire, I agree; This blog has asked several times "Why aren't peaceful muslims speaking out?" You're right.
But they'd be killed.
SF...so your answer to my question is that Islam can't work peacefully...and, it only worked in the past because adherents were cowed into thinking their rulers were always right or they were slaughtered. Today, with social networking and many years of modernization, adherents KNOW there's something wrong with the islamist radicals. But, the slaughtering will continue.
FJ...I give up. Why?
Z - Defensive much? I'm not comparing Christianity to Islam. I'm illustrating that religions can evolve.
I've made no prediction that Islam will, but it's possible.
Why? you didn't read my "One Corporation" link, did you?
Islam has no "corporate" equivalent. The very FIRST "multinational" corporation approximating a "modern" variant in the West was the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH.
The Left, like ISLAM, HATES "capitalist" corporations in ALL of their forms.
For corporations are organized "factions" BORN of a freedom of association. Weak States gave BIRTH to these "organized factions" in the declining years of the Roman Empire. Weak states ALSO gave birth to Islam (in the Eastern Byzantine provinces) AND the Catholic Church.
Z - As with anything else that is happening in our world - it is most likely that we will have to get used to Muslims in America.
Gay Marriage - which is not popular with everyone - is happening and will most likely have to be accepted - is an example.
Muslims will be another one.
FROM Z:
CI; One might call it defensive. Mostly it's just insisting on the truth. To compare the two is long and tedious and we can't go into it here, but suffice it to say the faith of Christianity is not of the business of Christianity or the monarchy of Christianity.
Islam can't change. Christianity didn't have to change, the religion did. And it did.
Z - "Mostly it's just insisting on the truth."
The most admirable of qualities, which is why I wrote nothing fallacious. Unless you're claiming that Christianity writ large [primarily Catholicism] had no faulty tenets or practices during it's early history, then using it as an illustration of how a religion can evolve over time to the benefit of it's adherents, is both an appropriate illustration and complimentary.
The remainder of your post and sentence structure left me rather puzzled at what you were trying to convey.
From Z
CI...in my last comment?
The RELIGION is made up, CI...Jesus didn't form a RELIGION...it's faith which keeps his followers to him.
There's CHRISTIANITY (those who follow Christ) and there's Methodist and Lutheran, etc etc...they mostly stay to the scriptures, but have slight differences in interpretation; some even adapt to the culture/society and have little resemblance to CHrist's teachings.
I wrote "Islam can't change" ...I'd prefer to write "Islam won't change", then there's hope they will.
Many Muslims are turning to Christ according to secret missionaries there, but they can't talk about it.
What really gets me is the similar stories missionaries in different areas are reporting; that Muslims are talking of dreaming of Jesus Christ. Very amazing stuff.
Z - "The RELIGION is made up...."
Thank you, I understand now what you were trying to convey. Islam isn't really much different in the regard of schools of thought and doctrinal disagreements [aside from the Shia-Sunni schism, which is fair to say, dwarfs any Protestant-Catholic tumult].
I agree that Islam, writ large, may not desire change...at least not at this point in time. The differences in philosophies [such as between Zaidi, Alawis, Druze, Sufi, Deobandi, Wahabi and Hanafi for example] can provide an avenue for similar change in how Muslims view religious nationalism. I believe that forces such as examples of democracy and free market liberties can be the most effective tool. It will depend upon which schools gain or lose leverage over the others.
Ultimately, I'm less interested in what God they pray to, or if they ponder conversion, as I am maintaining a tangible bulwark in the most extreme of their ranks.
@CI
Come on CI...you know what Islam really is, don't you?
Why do I get the feeling that you're about to tell me what you 'think' it really is......
@CI
Well...because I think you left out the fact this it's a political ideology first and foremost. Governing over or ruling over every aspect of one's life...who has "submitted" to it's dictates.
And as such.. I see no difference between it...and National Socialism...or Nazism.
And during WW2 the Grand Mufti did align himself with Adolph for one purpose.
I think that if Adolph had declared Nazism early on ( 1920"s or so ) a "religion"...we would never have defeated him or we would have declared the second Crusades to achieve his defeat.
Strains of Nazism are still alive and well today....so I think it's fair to say that Adolph has been elevated to "sainthood" by it's followers and thus has become a pseudo religion today.
Islam and Nazism have much in common.
Thanks for the historical quote--
NO THING changes w/ islam-
Carol-CS
"Well...because I think you left out the fact this it's a political ideology first and foremost."
Well...since the entire system is predicated on the belief in a supernatural deity and his prophet, the idea that it is a political ideology is spurious.
I personally don't place much stock in peripheral opinions of another religions value system, as it's usually entirely subjective.
Remember however, that Christianity has it's surrogates who believe that our American system of governance comes directly from the Bible, and as such, this nation should be led and administered in accordance with biblical values. Not much daylight between the two faiths when placed together under the same subjective lens.
I forgot to add that this idea of melding religion and politics is not new by any stretch, nor confined to Islam. Kant wrote in 1793 - "Judaism is really not a religion at all, but merely a union of a number of people who formed themselves into a commonwealth under purely political laws, and not into a church. Since no religion can be conceived of which involves no belief in a future life, Judaism, which, when taken in its purity is seen to lack this belief, is not a religious faith at all".
Interesting theories, but subjective.
"Not much daylight between the two faiths when placed together under the same subjective lens."
Sorry you see it this way. Their deity was a savage war lord...and a butcher.
And I don't see where other religions today call for decapitation, genocide, suicide bombings or conquest over other systems of government to be replaced by it.
Therein lies the problem...an "Islamist" country with nuclear weapons dedicated to their war lords vision of the extermination of another state and it's people.
And if that's a "religion" we have to go to war with...we better face up to the facts.
"Christianity has it's surrogates who believe that our American system of governance comes directly from the Bible.."
And accomplished far more successfully and respectfully for individuals than Islam can ever claim.
From Z:
What's important about bringing up Christianity in this discussion?
We're talking about Islam and its radicalists who seem to be winning right now are definitely less about the prophet and more about Sharia Law, in Egypt, for example. Political.
The leaders in Egypt are hard line Islamists who don't dress in thobes, etc., because they're more interested in appearing political and modern while they espouse the backward laws and violence.
From Z:
You're right, Imp. And this country has progressed beautifully as "a Christian nation"..it's only lately since so many have suddenly become offended by Christianity that things seem to be falling apart. Coincidence? Probably not.
I always find it amusing when folks constantly remind us there are millions of good muslims and why are we harping on the bad ones, when Christian nuts who kill their kids somehow get labeled as the poster child for all Christians.
I don't attempt to proclaim that Islam is a merry band of folk, intent on nothing but goodwill towards their fellow man...but I wouldn't lay at label at the feet of every Christian either.
Nothing untrue in what you wrote, yet you must also remember that the actions of the faithful are often perverted by the man.
Z - "....it's only lately since so many have suddenly become offended by Christianity that things seem to be falling apart."
There are indeed those people, though they are matched by those who seem offended at the argument that a religious belief does not, by default, equal liberty.
@Imp
Come on CI...you know what Islam really is, don't you?
----------
Why don't you tell us?
I suspect you bring a subtle nuance to the topic that is absent in most discussions.
I think I did already Duck.
Something I should have added to my last post.....Islam can work, in a nation-state model, if it uses Christianity as a model of how to coexist in tandem with the secular.
If it does not, and I believe it will not in my lifetime, then it will be in constant conflict with the rest of the world, and as such, be doomed to a primitive and isolated existence. It is for the adherents to decide.
From Z:
CI, I agree with you. I think it COULD work with Christianity as a model. I think the extremists don't want it to. I believe most muslims do want it to work and are not extremists..
Why do you think the anti-hardliners don't protest (in general) the actions of the hardliners and terrorists who kill in their names?
In watching the Anti-Morsi crowd in Egypt, it gives me hope that some ARE speaking out....obviously they're not so much against islam (which isn't really the point as I don't care who is for or against islam as long as they can get their acts together and not care so much that WE adopt it or die!) as they are violently against a lying despot who never told them he'd be a dictator when 'democratically' elected. But, it seems like every country with a large muslim crowd is a nasty place of oppression, poverty and violence.
Of course, Iran was not like that, nor was Afghanistan, before the hardliners took over. How "clever" for the West to get the Shah out and create the real problems we have today. Every Persian I know here in LA HATES the hardliners in their home country and bemoan the fact that the Shah was toppled.
Now we see it happening in Egypt and we'll see it in Syria and, God forbid, Jordan.....the rich Arab countries will topple, too, if chemical or nuke disasters don't happen first.
All in the name of FREEDOM! (how's that working out for you Muslims?)
The radicals haven't changed and still follow every vile and horrid teaching of the Qur'an. They still believe it is okay to mutilate and torture their girls and women.
They need to leave that violence in history and embrace a more peaceful existence with those that are not of the same religion or who disagree with them.
I still argue with ignorant people that LOVE to throw the Old Testament in my face, but the seem to forget that Jesus the Messiah did away with all of that and commanded us to love our enemies NOT slaughter them.
@Z
"Oh, not only from "you muslims" but "you Western liberals who believed the muslim hardliners that everything would be better!"
Crickets...and OOPS! Nevermind. Or as they say.."Marxism and socialism aren't "bad"...they just haven't been implemented correctly...LMAO.
Yea...even the Russians who know first hand that 70 years of that bear was bullshit and a failure. And they've warned us...warned us not to go there.
So...the warped, sick "c'est la vie" twits sitting around the loonie liberal tent and campfire....will tut tut the sheer failure and brutality of of Islam.
Maybe they including Obummer and his ilk...ought to get a real taste of Sharia's love someday...eh?
Maybe when the starlets in Hollywood ( pigs ) are forced to cover up and hide in bags....they might see it as it is.
Something I should have added to my last post.....Islam can work, in a nation-state model, if it uses Christianity as a model of how to coexist in tandem with the secular.
------
You mean if it respected a separation of church and state.
Theocracies are failures.
@Duck
"Theocracies are failures."
Damn Duck...I'm impressed. You fail to swallow the party line? Kudos to you ...if I read you correctly. Not that you give a rats ass what I think.
CI talks as if someone taking the Quran at face value (Submit!) has a subjective view of Islam.
It promotes a theocracy.
Comparison with Christianity is apples and walnuts (not oranges).
That some kingdoms claimed divine right does not make that an established tenet of orthodox Christianity.
There is no NT text that promotes an earthly kingdom (except the millenium one which will not be promoted by man).
Quite the contrary with Islam and its prescriptions for Dhimmitude, etc.
Z posed two questions:
Will it work? was the first.
Yes it will. It has.
It's just that the results are so horrible.
@Ed
Thanks Ed. Nice summation.
"Dhimmitude, etc."
That alone...should let the world know that Islam sucks...a failure...a pestilence...a mental disorder and an aberration against all of humanity.
The worlds most onerous diseases, along with poverty, war and famine...should add Islam to the list.
And I don't think that anyone who has an IQ over that of a fence-post...can see that any and every country that practices the poverty, slavery and disease of Islam...has given the world anything like Judeo / Christian nations have.
Science? Technology? Medicine? Literature?
Manufacturing? Language? Peace?
Islam is an utter failure to it's human dogs. One half of the world from east of the meridan is a failure. "Living" in the dark ages...in the 7th Century....Neanderthals and savages.
A midrange massacre about 80 or so will take place when the government tires. There will be no repeat of Syria in Egypt
@Beakerkin...
Which do you prefer?
Beak...Syria's turning into a living nightmare...is Assad INSane?
and, if Hannity, ONE MORE TIME, says "using gas on HIS OWN PEOPLE" I'm personally going to fly to NYC and pinch his head off his neck and say "ANY people shouldn't be gassed..not only HIS OWN PEOPLE"
what kind of monster even regards all those poor Syrians as HIS PEOPLE, anyway?
Some are saying he's gone insane...seems like that must be the case!
God, the world seems in total chaos, and we have Obama here to top it all off.
Help us.
And please gobslap all who voted for this DAMNED MONSTER OBAMA...who continues to live his psychoses from his childhood out on US.
Amen.
DAMN him (oops, sorry, God!) :-)
Amen.
Z said......
"And please gobslap all who voted for this DAMNED MONSTER OBAMA...who continues to live his psychoses from his childhood out on US."
Yes, those who did will. But why must WE all suffer? Also,what we may consider "insanity" seems to be the [norm] in the MUZZIE WORLD!
There is one question that could be answered-that would slow down the infighting between the Muslins as a whole. But that one question is at the root of the blood bath beyween them all. And it has been a blood bath for time and time onward.
Even if it would be answered for a time-it would be debated again in future generations.
The Greeks convienced them to a treaty table-it worked for a while, and then the debate broke out again. That was the Treaty of the Cresent. Only worked until the power hungry tricked their way back in to the Ruling Class.
The question is:
Who should Rule?
The Conquerors?
The Bloodline of Muhammad?
the Shi'ites-Sunni - Are you ready to ruummble
Z,
Why do you think the anti-hardliners don't protest (in general) the actions of the hardliners and terrorists who kill in their names?
Because the anti-hardliners are ever searching for the elusive will of Allah. In their minds, it just might BE that the will of Allah is hardline (fundamentalist) Islam.
When you come right down to it, the core of Islam is submission to the will of Allah. In other religious ideologies, more emphasis is placed on self-fulfillment (or justification and sanctification) than on submitting to a deity's will.
Furthermore, Arab Muslims believe that the presence of oil in the Arabian Peninsula is proof that Allah is the way. After all, Allah placed that oil there as proof that Islam rules -- or should rule -- the world.
The Koran does have a dual personality: the let's-all-get-along Meccan verses and the let's-conquer-the-world Medinan verses, verses which take Islam from the realm of merely a personal faith into the realm of geopolitical ideology so that hardliners are fighting a holy war, something that the West has left behind.
Z asked: Islam; can it work anywhere?
The answer is elusive because the West's definition of work differs from Islam's definition of work. What we in the West find abhorrent is not necessarily viewed as abhorrent in Islam. "East is East, and West is West," and all that.
Ideals differ among ideologies, sometimes significantly so; and every ideology holds that a particular ideology is superior to all others.
Ed's comment is spot on:
There is no NT text that promotes an earthly kingdom (except the millenium one which will not be promoted by man).
Quite the contrary with Islam.
Islam is a waste of time and energy.
We don't want it. We don't need. It doesn't belong in the West. PERIOD!
~ FT
Z
Assad is a member of a group that is considered heretical by Sunni Muslims. If he fails genocide of his community is very likely.
Imp
A brutal strongman or clerical madman means everyone loses either way. Neither side will produce a Jefferson.
Actually, when Assad falls, the radical al Qaeda jihadi's will have won another victory with their pan-Arab Sunni army.
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