Tell me something, friends; Obama is SO adamant about the rich "paying their fair share" yet the top 5% already pay 40% of ALL American taxes. The next richest 5% probably pay about 30% of them, don't they? The facts differ but they're all in that ballpark. Obviously, a huge percentage of Americans on the lower scale, though working, pay no taxes.Since it's been proven that taxing the rich even more won't do much to help, why is he so adamant?
Is this about money going into American coffers or is it about IDEOLOGY? Is it about punishing those who've made it? Is it about taking resentment out on those who were talented enough to make it when so many aren't? It seems almost stupid to stick to his guns this hard. Or is it all about sticking it to the Republicans because they at least KNOW that the rich are job creators and this could hurt the GOP in the way the media will discuss it WHEN we go over the cliff (as if taxing the rich could have stopped it, which most uninformed Americans actually DO think!!)
Geithner says they're perfectly happy to over the Fiscal Cliff over THIS. That's ALL IDEOLOGY (and not a little insane...watch his eyes when he insists...creepy) What are your thoughts?
Thanks, Z
86 comments:
You know the answer. Barack's power was born of resentment. KInda like the feeling I had when I visited Bar Harbor, Maine.
Andie
Since it's been proven that taxing the rich more won't do much to help, why is he so adamant?
Because it's part of his plan to fundamentally transform America. Part of that transformation seems to involve destroying the GOP -- or any opposition -- for years to come. Another part of his plan seems to be equalizing wealth.
No matter what position the GOP takes, the situation is a win-win for Obama and his minions. I agree with THIS over at Capitol Commentary:
what is going on in Washington right now is about two things:
1. Crushing any opposition to Obama
2. Obama getting as much power as possible
[...]
Obama has zero reason to do anything but let things play out so, if Republicans won’t fold and compromise on their beliefs, he will simply blame them for any economic damage that occurs.
Republicans are damned if they fold and allow taxes to be raised and damned if they hold firm and things go south.
In fact, it may be more advantageous for Obama's power grab if we do go over the fiscal cliff.
I just found this comment over at Infidel Bloggers Alliance:
Even if [taxing the rich] does NOT hurt the economy...what happens when it is discovered it has does nothing? What happens if the best case is true... we threw a thimble of water on a house fire?
Divine...Bar Harbor? Tell us! :-)
AOW...THAT is the key; yes. to FUNDAMENTALLY TRANSFORM AMERICA...which is why your second comment rates this answer; it will never have done NOTHING. Even if it DOES help the economy, it will have done MUCH MORE HARM ethically and morally to the backbone of America than anything could do financially. Something I don't believe Obama gives a damn about.
By way of review.
yet the top 5% already pay 40% of ALL American taxes.
---
I question the accuracy since revenue from SSI and income taxes are roughly equal.
The top 5% control well over 40% of the wealth so the objection to making the system more progressive isn't immediately apparent.
I know, they're the job creators (LMAO).
The wealth is more concentrated among a few than ever before. And they’d like to keep it that way.
It’s really quite simple.
@AOW --- Even if [taxing the rich] does NOT hurt the economy...what happens when it is discovered it has does nothing?
-------
What happens when NOT taxing them creates huge asset bubbles and mangles the economy?
Has the right wing been awake for the last 30 years or do you just blindly follow the supply side pied piper?
Personally, I am tired of carrying water for the rich. Almost half of them voted for Obama (around 45%), and the rest are obviously too stupid to convince their confreres or spend their money wisely to protect their interests from grubby marxist grabs, so screw 'em.
If this is the hill that Boehner decides to die on, protecting the rich from a little tax cut, he and those stupid enough to follow him can die alone.
I'll be in the rear with the gear.
Rehoboam succeeded Solomon as King.
1Ki 12:9 And he said unto them, What counsel give ye that we may answer this people, who have spoken to me, saying, Make the yoke which thy father did put upon us lighter?
1Ki 12:10 And the young men that were grown up with him spake unto him, saying, Thus shalt thou speak unto this people that spake unto thee, saying, Thy father made our yoke heavy, but make thou it lighter unto us; thus shalt thou say unto them, My little finger shall be thicker than my father's loins.
1Ki 12:11 And now whereas my father did lade you with a heavy yoke, I will add to your yoke: my father hath chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.
Tax more and harder.
No regard for the people.
Lose the kingdom like Rehoboam did.
We can only hope.
Pf course it is about ideology. It has nothing to do with fixing the economy or what is best for Americans as a whole. Going over the fiscal clif and being able to balme it on the Republicans would be a fullfillment of Obama's and the Democrat's wildest dreams. Raising taces on everybody and blaming on the GOp is perfect for Obama. He gets more revenue to spend than he ever could any other way and he damages the Republicans maybe forever. He gets to weaken the military due the sequester seal he conned the Republicans into avvepting in 2010. Now he wil achieve his goal of taking down this American empire several notches in one fell swoop.
Frankly, the whole progressive tax system is defined by the word progressive.
I am opposed to increasing a tax on the rich in the name of fairness on an ethical and moral basis.
What is fair about taking from more, proportionately, than the other?
Forcing someone to watch their earnings lest they creep into another bracket and lose to taxes what they gained in income.
I want to do nothing to enable Obama.
I'm not willing to die on a hill to defend the rich.
I am to defend my principles.
First they came for the rich, and I did nothing...
It's all about the longstanding Leftist Plot to elevate institutionalized ENVY, SPITE and MALICE to the status of being considered positive VIRTUES.
Like it or not, "The Rich" -- i.e. the REAL ones who derived their fortunes from inventing, manufacturing, distributing and INVESTING in valuable products the public truly needs, NOT the Crony Capitalists who've gotten their filthy ands on the levers of power and MANIPULATE markets with GOVERNMENT COLLUSION to their personal advantage and everyone else's detriment -- anyway, "The Rich" (as defined above) are The Geese that Lay the Golden Eggs.
Kill them off, liquidate their assets and "redistribute" their accumulated wealth "equally" among the masses, and what you will have is MUTUALLY-SHARED POVERTY on no time flat.
Remember what happened to the Bolshevik Revolution: After killing off untold millions of innocent human beings, IT DIDN'T WORK.
The OBAMEVIK's "Revolution" is destined to produce no better results, even though it has so far been achieved with far less bloodshed.
Remember ENVY is one of the Seven Deadly Sins no matter what the God-damned Progressives try to tell you.
~ FreeThinke
Killing the goose that lays the golden egg...
fee, fi, foe, fum.
Ducky, you really don't understand.
SF..I'm surprised. It's just about the most unAmerican thing we could ever do; to pick one successful sector of our society and attack them for their success.
And THAT is why Obama/Geithner are doing this. They know it's not much revenue compared to their having spent MORE THAN ALL ADMINISTRATIONS PUT TOGETHER.
By the way, most of Wall St leadership is Democrats...the left's done a dandy job of hiding that.
And not one CEO in Obama's office last week was a Republican.
Will respond to all your great comments later.
have a great day.
see you soon...z
Von Niehmoller's quote is perfect in this instance, in my opinion, if not obviously a much less horrifying situation, FJ.
I know his grandson, who's one of THE best jazz sax players in the world! :)
It is about eventually ensuring that everybody has the same economic value. In other words, spreading the wealth around.
Ducky: List for me the people or companies you've worked for that were poorer than you. How do you think they paid you?
The way I see it, there are many that are clueless but who delight in thinking that those of higher income don't deserve what they have EARNED and should be punished. This is part of the mentality, rather lack thereof, that put the Thief-in-Chief back into the White House!
FAIR SHARE?
Who Pays Income Taxes and How Much?
Tax Year 2009
Percentiles Ranked AGI Threshold on Percentage of
byAGI Percentiles Federal Personal
Income Tax Paid
Top 1% $343,927 36.73
Top 5% $154,643 58.66
Top 10% $112,124 70.47
Top 25% $66,193 87.30
Top 50% $32,396 97.75
Bottom 50% <$32,396 2.25
Note: AGI is Adjusted Gross Income
Source: Internal Revenue Service
~
I don’t really understand the conservative position on this. They seem to me as merely parroting the formulas of old (I mean no disrespect. Please hear me out before you come to any conclusion). I mean let’s ask ourselves, who are these rich people today? Are they the same as made America a great country once? One of the many great things about America, IMHO, is that it is the only country in the world that has elevated its man of industry to the same level as reserved for artists elsewhere. Never before had they been accorded the same respect anywhere. And, why not? For, if an artist is somebody who creates, the businessman is one too, he creates wealth; but even more importantly, as it seems to me, just like him, the businessman too risks his all when he sets about building his business from the scratch. It was precisely this that Marx could never understand. He could never understand the risk that a businessman takes, with himself, with his life, his family, his career; he could never understand that while the worker merely pays with his sweat and is mostly safe, the businessman pays with his blood (Incidentally, a sentiment wonderfully captured in the movie, There Will be Blood, an apt title.) It was why the ‘profit’ was rightfully his. It was also his because with this profit he could create even more wealth, and not just for himself, but for the whole nation. So killing him was indeed like killing the goose that lay the golden egg. But what about the rich men today? Are they really the great Men of Industry of yesteryear? Well, if you bar a very few, no! The rich today mainly consist of a college-educated managerial class, who i don’t even know what they bring to the table except some spurious expertise, let alone what do they risk? Or, what do they pay with? Only i can tell you this, it’s not with blood. And yet, they rake in millions, they rake in millions even when others are having difficulty making two ends meet. And do they create more wealth with these millions? The answer, unfortunately, is once again no. So even if one set aside demand-side economics, i think taxing them may not be such a bad idea after all. It will certainly not be unethical. And who knows travelling this hard road America may once again rediscover the virtue of risk-taking.
P.S. Forgive me i could not break it into more than one paragraph.
Wealth must be equalized... Except when it comes to Obama and his cronies!
We are swiftly entering the USSA!
Z: I understand your surprise. It is un-American, but it will be just the latest in a long string of un-American acts by America's own socialist party, and they are cheered on by tens of millions of voters, so America itself is becoming more and more un-American.
FT makes a great point:
Remember what happened to the Bolshevik Revolution: After killing off untold millions of innocent human beings, IT DIDN'T WORK.
Let the craven Social Democrats tax the stupid rich to kingdom come and back again. It won't work.
It's time to step aside and give America the Democrat policies it is clamoring for.
The beauty of it is, the big tax increases will fall overwhelmingly upon Obama voters in the blue states.
Heh heh heh...
They wanted home and change, and they'll end up gagging on it!
Consequences: There are few things more rewarding than watching people get what they deserve.
What is fair about taking from more, proportionately, than the other?
------
Because your Randian masters require a functioning society to provide them with the field to "bring in the sheaves" so to speak.
Why would you want the dysfunctional society you reap when you allow the wealth disparity to become too large. It generates stagnant growth. Even your Randian masters understand the demand curve.
JonBerg, chart tells me you ain't paying much.
@Joe --- Ducky: List for me the people or companies you've worked for that were poorer than you. How do you think they paid you?
------
The issue is that you don't seem to comprehend that the discrepancy in wealth is in question.
Are you foolish enough to believe that progressive tax policy will make the wealthy the new poor? Absolutely ridiculous.
@Z --- Ducky, you really don't understand.
-------
I don't understand what?
Remember, z, not agreeing with you is far from synonymous with not understanding.
[NOTE: Dear, Anonymous, I’ve taken the liberty of dividing your post -- much of which reflects my own thoughts -- into paragraphs. Most people will just SKIP when they see a huge block of print like that. I thought your remarks deserved closer attention, so I’ve butted in. Hope you don’t mind?
I disagree with your estimation of the esteem heaped upon “artists.” From what I’ve learned from reading history, and in my 70-year-long experience, the artist is held in very low regard, and always has been. In Europe they were treated as servants at best, and often lived in dire poverty -- with few exceptions. Perhaps you and I differ in our understanding of the term “artist?”]
~ FreeThinke
POST by ANONYMOUS:
I don’t really understand the conservative position on this. They seem to me as merely parroting the formulas of old (I mean no disrespect. Please hear me out before you come to any conclusion).
I mean let’s ask ourselves, who are these rich people today? Are they the same as made America a great country once?
One of the many great things about America, IMHO, is that it is the only country in the world that has elevated its man of industry to the same level as reserved for artists elsewhere. Never before had they been accorded the same respect anywhere.
And, why not?
For, if an artist is somebody who creates, the businessman is one too, he creates wealth; but even more importantly, as it seems to me, just like him, the businessman too risks his all when he sets about building his business from the scratch.
It was precisely this that Marx could never understand. He could never understand the risk that a businessman takes, with himself, with his life, his family, his career; he could never understand that while the worker merely pays with his sweat and is mostly safe, the businessman pays with his blood (Incidentally, a sentiment wonderfully captured in the movie, There Will be Blood.)
It was why the ‘profit’ was rightfully his. It was also his because with this profit he could create even more wealth, and not just for himself, but for the whole nation. So killing him was indeed like killing the goose that lay the golden egg.
But what about the rich men today? Are they really the great Men of Industry of yesteryear? Well, if you bar a very few, no!
The rich today mainly consist of a college-educated managerial class, who I don’t even know what they bring to the table except some spurious expertise, let alone what do they risk? Or, what do they pay with? Only I can tell you this, it’s not with blood. And yet, they rake in millions, they rake in millions even when others are having difficulty making two ends meet.
And do they create more wealth with these millions? The answer, unfortunately, is once again no. So even if one set aside demand-side economics, I think taxing them may not be such a bad idea after all.
It would certainly not be unethical. And who knows travelling this hard road America may once again rediscover the virtue of risk-taking.
- Anonymous
'Since it's been proven that taxing the rich even more won't do much to help...'
Really? Nice try!
Ending Bush tax cuts for rich would save about $80 billion in 2013, analysts say:
A Republican proposal to preserve tax cuts for the nation’s wealthiest households next year would cost about $80 billion more than a Democratic proposal to extend the cuts solely for middle-class taxpayers, according to official estimates released Thursday.
The GOP measure, introduced by Senate Republicans, would devote an additional $50 billion to retaining the George W. Bush-era tax cuts for taxpayers in the top two tax brackets. Reducing the estate and gift tax, which disproportionately benefits the wealthy, would eat up another $31 billion, according to cost estimates by the nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation.
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-07-19/business/35488195_1_tax-cuts-top-two-tax-brackets-republican-measure
Dean: "The Truth Is Everybody Needs To Pay More Taxes, Not Just The Rich"
Duck,
What happens when NOT taxing them creates huge asset bubbles and mangles the economy?
It's lose-lose for every taxpayer -- no matter what.
Meanwhile, the parasites and the moronocracy sitting at the top are laughing with glee: "More freebies!"
More moroncracy. Whatever happen to the idea of public service?
From Z:
I remember DUcky...because that's exactly what you constantly do. You don't agree with us so we're DEAD WRONG.
Who do you know who's poor and creates jobs, Ducky? It's VERY important to protect those who create the jobs and those who spend BIG. We NEED SPENDING. Those limousine liberals are VERY WELCOME to pay MUCH more on their taxes...but I beg them to KEEP SPENDING AND HIRING, too.
Honestly, does the leftwinger really think Republicans are protecting the rich for any other reason than the above? Who here is THAT RICH? NONE OF US.
It's like the ridiculous lefties accusing the Right of being racist when we see our Black candidates as people not BLACK PEOPLE and vote for them in big numbers...or accusing me, a WOMAN, of hating women. How NUTS can the left BE?
Nobody's against closing loopholes and clamping down on waste; NOBODY.
Anonymous...most Americans feel like you but I URGE YOU to read all the comments and you will hear things one doesn't hear in Europe (I assume you're not American from your syntax, etc....and welcome to geeez, by the way); Republicans are trying hard to protect the great freedom in this country to do better than our neighbor. Taxing the rich is anathema to what Americans should want. At least not taxing them SO MUCH MORE than others. The goal in America has always been to do well and then help philanthropically...not to punish.
Also, our protecting those who spend and hire does NOT include any appreciation of the wildly insane salaries some executives make.
Libman...grow up and do some homework about how many days taxing the rich of everything they've got will cover, okay? :-)
Oh, gad..I see FT answered Anonymous. Well, good on you, FT. I'm too busy to read it or AOW's link to Deen, but will tonight.
THanks, everybody.
z
Z...I was referring to envy!
Andie
We have a, so called, President who, by his flawed economics, seems to prioritize unemployment compensation benifits over the creation of 'real' jobs. If [our] economy survives it will surley be in spite of him and not because of him!
FROM Z:
Divine..I know, but is Bar Harbor so fantastic? I really know nothing about it! It must be terrific if you envy it! :)
What the squawk is about is the spending cuts, put in in 2,010.
Drastic spending cuts, in the Bush Tax Cuts expiring! Obama wanted the debt ceiling raised so much he blindly signed this provision in the Bill. Ha Ha Ha hahaha.
Both sides of the Congress don't want this to happen-especially the Dems. The Fed Reserve requires the Congress to spend-spend-spend, any drastic spending cuts will violate the contract with the FED Reserve.
@Anon
"Are they really the great Men of Industry of yesteryear?
Well, if you bar a very few, no! The rich today mainly consist of a college-educated managerial class, who i don’t even know what they bring to the table except some spurious expertise, let alone what do they risk?"
Aside form those great capitalists of the past century...who built the railroads, shipping, steel, manufacturing...the Ford's the Rockefellers, the Mellons, the Sears empire, the Carnegies, the Chases, the Woolworths and so many that transformed our society with their blood and sweat...we have their successors today.
Plenty of them...
The Steve Jobs, the Bill Gates, the Wozinaks...the Dells, Cisco, Oracle, the Sean Parkers and the pimply faced Facebook founder..Mark Zuckerberg.
And AOL's founder that changed the internet way of communication... forever.
All of whom ( plus many more that I've failed to mention ) have transformed our society with their entrepreneurial spirit and needs.
If they strove for riches or fame...or both doesn't matter. .All had a completely unique drive and energy that kept them going...some for more that 20 years to give us the benefits of their creativity and capitalist endeavors and risk.
Jobs and Gates alone have changed society forever. They're not unlike the Alexander Grahm Bellls, Edisons or Marconi's of yesteryear.
They have certainly made millions...maybe billions of lives better for their contributions.
I can only hope that someone may remind us of more people like them from the 50's to the present.
Ands let me add...that Jobs, Gates and Zuckerberg never finished college..if I recall correctly. And if I'm mistaken...I'd say regardless of their education levels...they're responsible for lots more that making a killing on Wall Street or a twerp with an MBA ever did.
So...I suppose I disagree with your entire premise.
The vast majority of the rich don't pay taxes of course. Taxes are a cost of doing business and gets added over time to the price of their goods and the middle class always pays the tax.
Typical misdirection for the lib kids
@Kid
Where you been brudder?
Another way to look at it.
Everything in my life that I value outside of Local government comes form rich people. house, car, food, gasoline, clothes, energy for heat and a/c, etc.
Virtually Nothing outside national defense (the fed's primary responsibility that they currently suck at) is the only thing the fed provides that I value.
So..I'm to hate the rich, who enrich my lives, in favor of government who do little more than find more ways to F with my personal liberties ?
Sounds insane when you think about it no?
Unless you're a libtard, then hell - giving more control to a totally incompetent parasite that can't even keep a post office in business makes all kinds of sense..
I can see them now, staring at wolfey blitzer or anderson cooper or maddow on TV, while they drool and wish as hard as they can for the federal government to control Every part of their life. Maybe the majority are heavy into the submissive parts of S&M.
Well, it's coming quick like a bunny now libtards. Enjoy it.
IMP. I've been working pretty hard paying taxes to support the losers, tired when I get home lately. Got a vaca coming up, hope that's gonna be the pause that refreshes.
And frankly a little disappointed that we don't seem to have a majority that is interested in America, or even understand it for that matter. It's a funk I'll get over quick.
@Kid
"I've been working pretty hard paying taxes to support the losers..."
And losers...they're not. Not as long as the shit eating, over fornicating parasites...can squeeze the equivalent of over 56K per year from the welfare system!!
Swear to God....it doesn't pay for these POS's to go to work to earn a 60K job anymore! WTF? I mean..WTF again?
Why work? Is this the most insulting shit that's ever come down the pike? Of course....we don't qualify ( you know why too ) and we have to pay for these..."reparations" to some lazy illiterate asshole who claims his ancestors 400 years ago....were forced to labor?
Hey Kid...I hate America now. I truly do. We've lost whatever it was....and we now now that the Thief in Chief...will keep rewarding....not labor...not capitalism...not hard work....but..."his people"....who he has single handedly destroyed any goodwill...race relations more than that old boogie man...the KKK ever did.
The country is shit...a welfare dump and done. I mean DONE.
I think I've become a radical, gun toting, Bible toting, radical. I'm worried for my prospects, ancestors.....and my kids.
IMP. Ah.. Yeah exactly.
I'll just add that if it was only the black folks, it wouldn't be that big of a deal. Most of them line up behind the political that brought the slaves, owned the slaves, fought the civil war and killed Americans trying to keep the slaves and even had KKK leaders in the senate in the current Century!
I've given up on them as a group. 93% voted for obama again because he's half black, even though most of them criticize him and don't like him for it. Anyone who is black, but not a democrat is a uncle tom.
They are just zeroed in on this 'racism' thing. Got a friend at work, smart guy, family, works hard, runs a baseball team for black high schoolers, invests a lot of his own time in the community. Really a stand up guy, but if Anything comes into his field of vision like criticizing obama, his ears go up like a cat and he gets pissed off. I criticize obama constantly.
He came in to work last week, someone drew a mustache on a pic of obama on a newspaper pic in the lunchroom and I heard he went off about it. Modified pictures of Bush making him look like a chimp are no problem though, and I bring up the hypocrisy in "no uncertain terms". Don't matter.
It's a level of derangement/obsession fed by the democrats and their pathetic tools that keep the racism ratcheted up.
I tell him there will always be people who hate or make fun of anyone/group, but it doesn't do any good. Imagine how the rest of them feel?
But, to me, the give up comes from the fact that most of these kids up to around 30 yrs old and many over 30 are down with this socialism thing. Plus they're been dumbed down and indoctrinated to the libtard way of life to the max. They think the fed should take over everything. They don't even question it. And if they were the kind to question, they don't have the mental tools to be able to evaluate what's going on. They don't even relate to the fact that obama is an elected employee of America, they think he's a king. I'll put money on them voting for Anyone in 2016 as long as they're democrat, including michele. And the republican party is useless at best and the Tea Party lost elected members.
You got people like jim cramer, bitching about obama's policies on his CNBC mad money show the last 4 years and I guarantee you he voted for obama again. It's like new yorkers and all of the north east for that matter vote for democrats like the palestians hate Israelis. Seriously. WTF? :) It's stunning.
We're on an express elevator to hell, going down. Gonna hit rock bottom before anything can possibly improve.
PS - Gotta mention the public unions who are destroying the entire country at every level just like private unions destroy their host companies.
That won't stop until the host is dead.
GM, Chrysler, Twinkies, Boeing, whatever. And they don't learn. Or care. GM cars are even more POS's today than they were when the government took them over. They're running for the cliff again at full speed.
IMP, You've probably seen this video where the defected KGB agent 'splains it, but maybe someone here hasn't.
here it be
@Kid
You rock...
"GM cars are even more POS's today than they were when the government took them over. They're running for the cliff again at full speed."
Yea they are...total shit compared to the other choices. I remember when a Malibu or an Impala was a great ride.
I remember when GM was the car for the masses...like Fords.
Now that the bailout has taken GM to China...fully..and with 2/3rds of their manufacturing there...along with the Chicoms...they can dump their shit on the silly Chinks.
It's their only salvation...but remember....we paid for it.
I...hate America.
Thanks IMP, seems like we're in an alternate universe even having this discussion.
I was just talking about this GM cars thing recently. It's interesting.
My dad had a 65 Chevy Belair when I came of driving age. That car was indestructible. 283, 2 speed powerglide trans. I won't go into detail about my inadvertent efforts to kill it. :)
Chevy's in 1969 were the best they would ever be. 1970 brought the federal onslaught of federal involvement in auto design. Chevy never recovered. Union pressure to lower component cost in order to pay for their constantly increasing demands that directly attack profitability seals their fate.
I understand (correct me if I'm wrong) that the UAW got a 60% share stake in GM when they were saved by the taxpayers and have since sold most or all of that stock [to some suckers obviously]
Its IRS info
Its simple they should make their own
$80billion ain't shit....no when Obama is spending $1.5 trillion more a year and revenues are back to pre recesssion levels of $3 trillion
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/mar/25/barack-obama/obama-promises-cut-deficit-half-four-years/
too bad uneducated voters didn't have that information...
http://factcheck.org/2012/09/obamas-deficit-dodge/
that's the typical Obama and team, isn't it!?? :-)
there's so much information out there and Americans just don't hear it. Did you see the article that said comedians don't joke about Obama because they're afraid it will WEAKEN HIM? Honestly, you can't make this up.
EVERYBODY is in the bag for this awful lying America-wrecker..it's amazing.
"I won't go into detail about my inadvertent efforts to kill it. :)"
Kid, you are HILARIOUS...I love that line!!
Kid, by the way, it sounds like your dad might have thought up some inadvertant ways to kill YOU having to do with that car, huh? !!!
Z, Thanks. heheh
"it sounds like your dad might have thought up some inadvertant ways to kill YOU having to do with that car, huh?"
Well, I hadn't looked at it that way, but now that you mention it... Naw, I don't think so. He was infantry all over Europe in WWII. As bad as I was, that had to be nothing compared to what he'd already been through.
Kid, good point about infantry and what he'd seen.
I guess even a teenager trying to kill his car doesn't equal WWII!!!
still.....:-)
The WH admitted today that the tax hikes won't pass the DEMOCRATICALLY controlled Senate
@FT
No, i don't mind at all. And thanks for the trouble.
From what I’ve learned from reading history, and in my 70-year-long experience, the artist is held in very low regard, and always has been. In Europe they were treated as servants at best, and often lived in dire poverty -- with few exceptions.
If that is your sole objection, i think it can be easily set right. By the regard in which artists were kept elsewhere, i meant a certain romanticization of the profession in public consciousness. Yes, you are right, many of them lived in poverty, and died in it, too. But that was the precise 'lure' of it (in the old-fashioned sense, anyway), not money, nor honor, but glory. That was also its risk. :)
@Z
Taxing the rich is anathema to what Americans should want.
If you read my post carefully, you would see that that was the entire thrust of the argument made in it. The America that you want to protect so badly, that America is no more. It has changed. And so has changed the complexion its 'rich'. And while taxing them (more than others) should have been rightfully an anathema even until a few decades ago, there may not be anything un-American about it anymore. Like i said, who knows travelling this hard road America may once again rediscover the virtue of risk-taking.
And that is beside the arguments that can be made for it from the demand-side Economics.
Liberalmann's getting educated!? HURRAH! Congratulations!
Anonymous: I appreciate your very reasoned comments and I don't disagree with you entirely but America is NOTHING without its encouragement to Americans to SUCCEED. And punishing those who succeed is NOT AMERICAN! This mentality is something Europeans have a very hard time with, I guarantee (I've lived there and I know all too well)
The rich support the poor...where is the poor going to be without any poor anymore? And, believe me, Obama's does NOT encourage getting rich.
The left now is saying "We need to get up to Clinton tax levels and all will be fine" ...they pay NO attention to the fact that our country wasn't in this monstrous MESS during Clinton...
Anonymous; we must STOP SPENDING! Spending is what's put Greece and Spain and so many other countries in such economic peril! But the Leftwingers here hold entitlements out to uneducated AMericans who don't even stop to think "where is this money coming from?" and vote for the Democrats!!
When someone's house budget is in debt, does the bank keep giving that person more and more money to keep spending more and more? Of course not!
That's all I'm trying to say to you...do you see what I mean?
It's quite simple. The "fiscal cliff" is the result of "entitlement" programs, particularly Medicare.
Medicare has created the largest part of the national debt, and is presently the fastest growing debt creator.
Now look at incomes by age group. 65+ year olds are on average making 25% more in incomes than the 65+ year old age bracket even 5 years ago.
All other age brackets have declining income levels. the 15 to 24 age bracket's average income is on the rise, but is still 20% lower that the incomes of 15 to 24 year olds 10 years ago.
The 25 to 64 year olds have seen their average incomes drop in the last 10 years, even by up to 40%
Clearly there's a massive wealth transfer going on, and it's from the young to the old.
And when the average 65+ year old Medicare recipient has received from Medicare more than he or she ever paid into Medicare by the 3rd year of their retirement, clearly it's the government devastating the incomes of all age groups to give the 65+ year olds a most undeserved pay raise.
They paid lower payroll taxes, and many of them really didn't pay anything on it at all because Medicare didn't even exist to collect payroll taxes from them the first 10 to 15 years of their working careers.
Whenever some schmuck 65+ year old starts gabbing about how he "paid all his life into Medicare" to get entitlements back, please kindly punch them in the face repeatedly until that absurd noise ceases to emit from their mouths.
IT'S THEIR $16 TRILLION NATIONAL DEBT. MAKE THEM PAY IT OFF.
Z,
Nobody's against closing loopholes and clamping down on waste; NOBODY.
Shall we define loopholes? Does the definition extend to certain deductions? For example, almost every developed nation regards the mortgage-interest deduction as a loophole.
And what of the capital gains tax?
The death tax?
Are those loopholes? If the goal is to equalize wealth, then surely the above that I mentioned would be deemed as loopholes.
Beamish,
I'm not sure that any private-policy health insurance is available for purchase for those over age 65. I'm not speaking of Medigap coverage; I'm referring to major medical health insurance for that age group.
Clearly there's a massive wealth transfer going on, and it's from the young to the old.
Not in this household!
BTW, Social Security income is subject to tax -- as Mr. AOW and I discovered when he began drawing SSDI. I believe the threshold for the tax that he pays is contingent on my earning $24,000+.
Another big hit that our national budget is taking or will take: those receiving federal pensions. Just sayin'.
Beamish,
Whenever some schmuck 65+ year old starts gabbing about how he "paid all his life into Medicare" to get entitlements back, please kindly punch them in the face repeatedly until that absurd noise ceases to emit from their mouths.
You know what I wish that I had? The over $1 million that Mr. AOW and I and our employers paid into the private health-insurance industry. To date, we have received about $350,000 in medical benefits, and that includes a brain surgery and Mr. AOW's post-stroke care. Too bad about that "lost" $650,000, which might have transferred somehow into our Medicare accounts (or the like)!
The cost of medical care has become astronomical! It is the elephant in the room as the tsunami of aging Boomers bears down upon us.
From Z at work:
Sorry there's no new post today...I hope you keep up the discussion here.
I had something scheduled, dated, ready to print at midnight and it not only didn't print but it disappeared from DRAFTS, too.
This morning at 5 AM, I saw what happened,so I Googled the subject again to get it on here and, this time, when I read the last line, at some blogger's site, it said something like "this might not have been said by "X", I haven't seen this anywhere else, but it's true anyway"
I perused other blogs from Google to see if that was the tag line of their presentations of the story but I saw that no other blogs, nor the news item where I'd seen it (I don't reprint from other blogs) carried that last line.
I figured someone 'up there' was watching over me because I NEVER want to print quotes which aren't QUOTES that are verified. Hence, it's not here today.
So...have a great day, keep talking amongst yourselves and, while I'm here from 6:30 this morning till midnight at our Christmas party (including solo'ing at the Christmas Chapel for 300), I'll hope to get a new post up for Saturday. Blessed Saturday. Thank GOD for Saturdays :-)
Pray for my busy day, please!
Thanks..xxxZ
"Clearly there's a massive wealth transfer going on, and it's from the young to the old."
Clearly, and the youth demographic of the 2012 National Election indicates that the "youth" are not cognizant of this fact. They have just helped to compound it! Perhaps this is a legacy of our wonderful Public Education system!
Z,
YES! I saw a light on a private tennis court that I am CERTAIN cost more than my house!
Andie
The rich will survive the tax hike he imposes on them. And you won't see me shedding any tears when a bruce springsteen or eva longoria pay their fair share.
If it gets too much, they'll leave America, just like in France and Britain where they did the same thing.
Those who won't survive will mainly be the idiots that voted for obama. Sad, but it's what they wanted.
How cute, in order to dispel the facts when they are presented to point out the obvious lies and holes in their wingnut crap...someone has to hijack my screen name. Typical.
...
Z said:
'Libman...grow up and do some homework about how many days taxing the rich of everything they've got will cover, okay? :-)'
Ahh…I think my link to the facts which blows your premise out of the water is…'homework.'
....
Impertinent said:
'Aside form those great capitalists of the past century...who built the railroads, shipping, steel, manufacturing......
we have their successors today....The Steve Jobs, the Bill Gates, the Wozinaks...the Dells, Cisco, Oracle..."
All funded by the government with massive subsidies and more recently, NASA's development of miniature computers. Geez, you make this too easy, lol!
@libdude
"All funded by the government with massive subsidies.."
Links? Facts? I have a better idea...why not go on a strike and burn your PC...that'll get you even with Gates ( Or Jobs ) and shove your smart fone where the moon don't shine...and leave us all alone, Dipstick.
And I'll bet the feds subsidize your pitiful existence too...food stamps and especially a mental disability.
No one here's give a flying fart about your bilge...
If only the Republicans had the courage of the Souliot women, the would do the dance of Zolongo off the fiscal cliff!
Farewell poor world,
Farewell sweet life,
and you, my poor country,
Farewell for ever
Farewell springs,
Valleys, mountains and hills
Farewell springs
And you, women of Souli
The fish cannot live on the land
Nor the flower on the sand
And the women of Souli
Cannot live without freedom
Farewell springs,
...
The women of Souli
Have not only learnt how to survive
They also know how to die
Not to tolerate slavery
Farewell springs,
.
RWT said.............
"If it gets too much, they'll leave America,"
Fair enough but where is there left to go?????
liberalmann, yet you persist in hanging here; I think your subconscious knows better than you do and seeks truth.
Good luck with that. maybe, someday, you'll learn something here.
Until then, call Bill Gates and tell him he didn't do this on his own, okay? :-)
Live free or die.
Note to Republicans on the fiscal cliff...
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. - Winston Churchill
Good for both Thersites and Joe Conservative! As usual they get right to the heart of the matter and understand it rightly.
We must remember when it comes to chronic naysayers, brainwashed devotees of liberalism, imbeciles and demonic "oppositionists:"
" ... The ungodly are not so, but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away."
In other words don't waste precious energy preaching to rocks, mud puddles and jungle growth. There's no percentage in it.
!~ FT
The RNC needs better spokesman... so why do guys like Mittens STILL. get nominated?
Oh, THATS right, they know how to say what voters want to hear... like Etch-a-Sketches and TOTUS.
Integrity, character and values are a sure fired KILLER in an election.
Just ask the RNC.
Z Said: '...maybe, someday, you'll learn something here'
Oh, I have. Wingnuts will believe any lie Fox/Rush throws at them.
No, Liberalmann, you're wrong.
But you should try FOX, at least there you'd get SOME of the opinion of the other fully half of America who don't agree with socialism and hurting success in America.
you sure are drawn here like a moth to flame... every day; every liberal link you can find. I honestly don't think you realize there ARE other ways of looking at America than yours.
That's scary!
Hes wrong all right. Not only has tax the rich in California not worked but they're leaving in droves.
http://joemiller.us/2012/12/despite-tax-increase-california-state-revenues-in-freefall/?utm_source=JoeMiller.US+List&utm_campaign=553d4e1452-12_09_1212_9_2012&utm_medium=email
http://gopthedailydose.com/2012/12/08/despite-tax-increase-california-state-revenues-in-freefall/
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