Monday, September 22, 2008

Palin and Thatcher........comparisons


Can Palin Follow Thatcher’s Footsteps?

By: James Humes

Parallels abound between Gov. Sarah Palin’s quest to be a heartbeat from the U.S. presidency and Margaret Thatcher’s rise to power in Great Britain.

Thatcher broke the glass ceiling in her country, where no woman had ever risen to such a top leadership position. The arguments against her were plenty: She had no experience in foreign policy, defense or national security matters. Most of her expertise was in domestic issues such as education. The old-boy network was united against her, but she took on the leadership in her own party.

In addition, the intellectual and political establishment disdained Thatcher. They looked down on her lower-middle-class background in a small town and her religiously strict background. She sparked the ire particularly of the academic left who called her “Attila the Hun in a skirt.”

Thatcher, who along with Ronald Reagan won the Cold War, slashed union-written restrictions and regulations to revive Britain’s sagging economy into the strongest in Europe. Winston Churchill II said Thatcher, along with his grandfather, were “the greatest British prime ministers in history.”

Thatcher, also against environmentalist protests, pushed oil drilling offshore in the North Sea in the northern extremity of her country, North Scotland. Scots enthusiastically embraced the drilling and pipe-laying that brought new prosperity to the region.

Similarly, Alaskans applauded their governor, Palin, who now is Republican vice presidential candidate for her support of oil and gas exploration. Other similarities abound between Palin “the Barracuda,” which was her basketball nickname, and Thatcher, known as “the Iron Lady.”
Thatcher, like Palin, was not an accommodating or compromising politician. Her most famous phrase was: “This lady’s not for turning.” Her cabinet did not want her to rescue the Falklands from the grip of Argentinean Dictator Leopoldo Galtieri, but she did.

In Alaska, Republican leaders tried to stop Palin from going after corruption in her own party. Her intransigence upset the don’t-rock-the-boat Republicans in control.

In Britain, after a late Cabinet meeting, where most of Thatcher’s ministers had opposed cuts she proposed, she took them out for dinner at a trattoria near Ten Downing Street. The waiter approached her and the 10 men and started to read the specials.

Thatcher stopped him and said, “We’ll have the pasta.” The waiter nodded and said, “What about the veggies?”

“They’ll have pasta, too,” Thatcher replied. (Z: I LOVE THAT!!!)

Thatcher once said, “Some things are right; some things are wrong. Life is ultimately character, and that character comes from what you make of yourself. You must work hard to support yourself, but hard work is even more important in the formation of character.”

Palin has uttered much the same thing about her own life. It is not surprising that both grew up with the same small-town, middle-class, church-attending, hard-working values.

Thatcher was the youngest girl on the field hockey team when she was 11, and eventually became its captain. She later said, “It was not the playing that gave her pleasure, but the competition and winning.”

Similarly, Palin developed her zest for fighting to win in sports.

When Thatcher was elected to a Conservative Parliament in 1959 at age 34, the Conservatives under Harold Macmillan held office. But the old-boy network gave her only minor sub-Cabinet positions. She voted against abortion and voiced opposition to easing laws against gays for sodomy with minors.

Thatcher would win respect for her hard work and her speeches against waste and big spending.

In 1974, Conservative Prime Minister Ted Heath lost to Socialist Harold Wilson, mostly because he appeased the unions in a national strike. There was a move to challenge Heath for the leadership of the Conservative Party. Thatcher announced her candidacy for the leadership position. She was not given a chance; her rivals had served in posts such as foreign secretary, defense minister and chancellor of the exchequer in previous Conservative governments. They also were part of the upper-class establishment that had ruled the Conservative Party.

Thatcher, a grocer’s daughter, could boast of no posh prep school background, but her principal opponents, Willie Whitelaw, Sir Geoffrey Howe and James Prior did. One Conservative member of Parliament said they “wondered whether a woman could represent the country internationally dealing with defense and foreign policy matters thought to be provinces of men.”

Although her only Cabinet position had been a minor one in education under Heath, Sir Alec Douglas-Home, the foreign secretary under Heath, had said at the time that “she’s smarter and tougher than all the rest of the Cabinet combined.”

Conservative leaders did not know how to deal with Thatcher. As her biographer, Chris Ogden of Time magazine, observed, her rivals’ experience with women was limited to aristocratic wives and demure and acquiescent females.

But Thatcher would tell election groups in England, as Palin would later in Alaska, “In politics, if you want something said, ask a man; if you want anything done, ask a woman.”

In Britain, Margaret Thatcher struck a resonant chord with Conservative Party constituencies and won the party leadership. Still, the party establishment was uneasy with her unapologetic free market programs and tough anti-communist policies. Shortly after she assumed the leadership post, the Conservative Central Party office approached me and asked whether I would draft a speech for the coming campaign in 1975 that was a softer, folksier approach.
When Thatcher read the draft, she remonstrated, “Haven’t you ever read ‘The Road to Serfdom’ by Friedrich Hayek?”

“Yes”, I replied. “Well it doesn’t show it,” Thatcher said, ripping up the speech. The fact was that I wrote the draft I was asked to, but the Conservative office had been afraid to risk her wrath by writing such mush.

The only time Palin has ever said “mush” was to Eskimo sled dogs. Like Thatcher, she is tough talking and outspoken. Palin’s actions speak louder than her words.

In 1979, Thatcher’s plain speaking on Conservative plans to cut taxes and regulations on business galvanized the party’s base and she was elected prime minister. Her vision of “a man’s right to work as he will, to spend what he earns to have the state as servant not master” inspired her country.

Three decades later, Palin has likewise energized her party and has become a rallying point.

Would a Vice President Palin be a future Margaret Thatcher?

z

75 comments:

Anonymous said...

Z,
A terrific article. The parallels between these two women are compelling.

From what we know so far about Sarah Palin, I think she has the attributes which are comparable to Thatcher's.

But, as with any great leader there is only one Thatcher. However, I do believe the possibility exists that the same could be said for Governor palin.

So my answer is, yes, for the future, as with Thatcher, and Reagan for that matter, there may be only one President Palin.

The future has brightened considerably, just when we thought we saw no light at the end of the tunnel, it shone through.

Pris

Mantha said...

wow. i really enjoyed reading this article, comparing these two amazing female politicians.

thanks for the monday morning food for thought.

have a great day!

Anonymous said...

...and I always hoped that maybe Jeane Kirkpatrick would have gotten the call to be the first woman president.

I can only hope that Sarah will stick to her guns and not let DC turn her head, as it has turned the head of many a man who preceded her.

Anonymous said...

z, Thatcher was/is a legend. She singlehandedly took the bull by the horns and gave it a good shaking.
Yes I certainly think Sarah has the heart to push forward and do all she believes is good for the country. America would be greatly blessed by a leader like her. But first we have to cross the hurdle of the greatest threat America has ever faced right in front of our path. It truly is a choice between good and evil this time round.

MathewK said...

"It is not surprising that both grew up with the same small-town, middle-class, church-attending, hard-working values."

And it's not surprising that today's elitist, sneering media have nothing but contempt for both women. If Obama wins this, thanks to his socialism, soon people won't have much change in their wallets, so it'll be fertile ground for Palin or any other candidate who promises to steal less from the people who work and give to those who did not.

Chuck said...

In Britain, Margaret Thatcher struck a resonant chord with Conservative Party constituencies

Palin is doing the same with a twist, she's charismatic. Thatcher was likeable and very well respected but she would not be called charismatic.

Palin on the other hand drew 60,000 fans in Florida. Some standing for 90 minutes in 90+ degree temps.

Gayle said...

“What about the veggies?” LOL!

A very enjoyable read, Z. Thanks!

Brooke said...

Great read with lots of good comparisons.

Let's hope Palin gets the chance to prove this out!

Anonymous said...

Unfortunately for Conservatives, Palin's presence on the ticket is enabling McCain's characteristic slide to the left and allowing him to pursue his infamous "reach across the aisle" rhetoric that has enfuriated Republicans since McCains arrival in the Senate. How else can one explain that "Andrew Cuomo for SEC Chairman" gaffe on 60 Minutes last night? Andrew Cuomo? Why not Barack Obama?

Z said...

fj...how is her presence allowing that?
We need to stand tight and hope McCain's pandering now (Obama's lying at this MOMENT, telling elderly Floridians McCain would have had their soc sec money in the stock market now...)..if they can LIE, we can pander.

ANYTHING is better than OBAMA. We got the amnesty thing stopped, we can stop mcCain on anything really hellacious, too.

hopefully

Anonymous said...

how is her presence allowing that?

He's thrown us our bone and now expects our unwavering support, no matter how hair-brained. As Obama moves towards the center with his rhetoric, McCain moves farther and farther Left, secure in the impression that he's got the "right" covered w/Palin. But an outreach to Andrew Cuomo crosses a line, IMHO. Cuomo was a MAJOR players as Sec of HUD in both fueling AND facilitating the Subprime debacle. And as Chairman of the SEC, Cuomo would be in a position to continue to enable and facilitate untold damage to our financial system and the economy in general.

And unless control of the economy get's returned to the invisible hand of market forces, without ANY government thumb being placed on it to "sway" it in the direction of helping group A or B, we will end up as serf's and slaves of the government w/o ANY hope of self-determination or accumulating property and retiring as anything greater than a ward of the State.

The "pursuit of hapiness," the American dream, will be DOA and we all become simply pawns of the resultant manipulated markets of the totalitarian socialist state.

Z said...

I see your point but we can't be sure that's what McCain's thinking..anyway, I can't let that get into my equation re my vote...
Obama is so dangerous on SO many more levels that I'd vote for my dentist against him, as I've
already said.

Let McCain get IN, then we can give him hell. And we can. And so will Palin, IMHO.

The Merry Widow said...

FJ-Which is why a former fellow POW of McCain's won't vote for him!
Frankly, I'm afraid we are s@#$ed this election, because and remember, the vice-president really has NO power.
I like what I see of Sarah Palin, and I respect her stands, but she is "in the shadows" unless called upon to step up to the plate in the event of McCain's demise or disabling!

tmw
REMEMBER WHO THE MAJOR PLAYERS ARE, and Sarah isn't one of them, she's a distraction and a sop!

Z said...

Well, folks..right now, I'm dedicated to keeping Obama out of the presidency.
We can work on the other stuff after that happens!!
I wouldn't underestimate Palin....

I'm hoping she gets to Washington and KICKS it around!

Anonymous said...

I am so happy to see that other people feel the way I do. I think Sarah Palin is a breath of fresh air to the trashy and garish Hollywood left. We need a return to some basic human decency. I live in a very conservative neighborhood where most everyone is a Republican. My husband and I are respected and loved by most everyone. I’m not so sure this would be true in some more liberal neighborhoods. Let me say that the whole backlash against Palin has cemented my disdain for the left and their hateful ways

Z said...

Boy, Sandy (and welcome), I'd sure like to live in YOUR 'sandbox'...I'm in the liberal hotbed of West LA/Santa Monica!

We have to support Palin right now and hope she's as authentic and unwilling to bend to the RNC "same ol', same ol'"....like shoprat said "if she's not our future, we have no future"..sent chills up and down me.

Rita Loca said...

I posted a speech of Thatcher's yesterday which is just excellent.

Rita Loca said...

McCain is 4 years tops, perhaps Palin for another 8. Think of the Supreme Court nominees in that time? We can not let the Obamaites get that. We will be looking at 8 years if Obama wins and 20 years of Supreme Court appointments he may make. I could not live with myself for allowing such a thing to happen.

Anonymous said...

There is no question that Maggie Thatcher is a remarkable woman. We only know that, of course, because she was the principal politician in the United Kingdom for nearly twelve years. I have a great deal of admiration for Lady Thatcher, even after we acknowledge that no every one of her programs benefited British society. Simply, there are no perfect politicians. So I find myself in agreement with TMW that we can’t know if Palin will measure up until much later. I have my fingers crossed … but I’ve been disappointed too many times before.

BTW … off topic … has everyone sent a thank you note to Schumer, McCaskill, and Kerry (Democrats, all) for screwing up an oil deal with Iraq? Thanks to them, China is now buying Iraqi oil that Congress refused to allow Exxon to purchase. You can find the details in Frederick Kagan’s Weekly Standard article, “No Oil for Blood.”

Anonymous said...

I see Margaret Thatcher in Sarah Palin and I see give ‘em hell Harry Truman in John McCain….they are the true stand up for Americans and fighting spirit.
What I see in Obama is something I don't want to write on your blog...

Ducky's here said...

"There is no such thing as society"

--- Margaret Thatcher

I'm not sure how that can be paraphrased in Palin's case since the movement which supported Thatcher's statement is now pretty much dead and discredited.

My suggestion is not to let Palin start talking about the proof that man and dinosaurs coexisted.

Ducky's here said...

It will become obvious that it is more accurate to compare her to Dan Quale, although Thatcher was no prize.

Anonymous said...

I don't suppose you can cite a reference to Palin's own words to that effect, can you, ducky? Didn't think so.

Anonymous said...

Frankly, I could care less who McCain has in his cabinet if they tackle what ails this country.
But, let us see what happens first .

WVDOTTR

Z said...

yer darn tootin', JM...we CANNOT allow that.

FJ...lay off poor Ducky..he's filled to the brim of silly DNC talking points with no substance. But, he's lucky, he's got a whole media to rely on for the lies.
We have to fight hard...and half of FOX now is liberal.

And the left blames FOX for being "Too conservative" Oh, my GOSH! If any of you watch CNN from time to time, you know how much more left than FOX is right these days.......hilarious, if it weren't the only place Conservatives have to go for REAL news.

oh, well. that's going, too.

Z said...

psi bond. Deleted. You keep forgetting that this is my blog but I do encourage you to start your own and publish long dissertations by other authors and, maybe even your own, there!
thanks so much.

psi bond said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
psi bond said...

Looky! Looky! Leftist anti-Palin commentary, politically incorrect in this closed forum.

Palin's most conspicuous gaffe in her interview with Gibson has been widely discussed. The truth is, I didn't much care that she did not know the meaning of the phrase "Bush doctrine." And I am quite sure that her supporters didn't care, either. Most people view such an ambush as a journalistic gimmick. What I do care about are all the other things Palin is guaranteed not to know—or will be glossing only under the frenzied tutelage of John McCain's advisers. What doesn't she know about financial markets, Islam, the history of the Middle East, the cold war, modern weapons systems, medical research, environmental science or emerging technology? Her relative ignorance is guaranteed on these fronts and most others, not because she was put on the spot, or got nervous, or just happened to miss the newspaper on any given morning. Sarah Palin's ignorance is guaranteed because of how she has spent the past 44 years on earth.

I care even more about the many things Palin thinks she knows but doesn't: like her conviction that the Biblical God consciously directs world events. Needless to say, she shares this belief with mil-lions of Americans—but we shouldn't be eager to give these people our nuclear codes, either. There is no question that if President McCain chokes on a spare rib and Palin becomes the first woman president, she and her supporters will believe that God, in all his majesty and wisdom, has brought it to pass. Why would God give Sarah Palin a job she isn't ready for? He wouldn't. Everything happens for a reason. Palin seems perfectly willing to stake the welfare of our country—even the welfare of our species—as collateral in her own personal journey of faith. Of course, McCain has made the same unconscionable wager on his personal journey to the White House.

In speaking before her church about her son going to war in Iraq, Palin urged the congregation to pray "that our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God; that's what we have to make sure we are praying for, that there is a plan, and that plan is God's plan." When asked about these remarks in her interview with Gibson, Palin successfully dodged the issue of her religious beliefs by claiming that she had been merely echoing the words of Abraham Lincoln. The New York Times later dubbed her response "absurd." It was worse than absurd; it was a lie calculated to conceal the true character of her religious infatuations. Every detail that has emerged about Palin's life in Alaska suggests that she is as devout and literal-minded in her Christian dogmatism as any man or woman in the land. Given her long affiliation with the Assemblies of God church, Palin very likely believes that Biblical prophecy is an infallible guide to future events and that we are living in the "end times." Which is to say she very likely thinks that human history will soon unravel in a foreordained cataclysm of war and bad weather. Undoubtedly Palin believes that this will be a good thing—as all true Christians will be lifted bodily into the sky to make merry with Jesus, while all nonbelievers, Jews, Methodists and other rabble will be punished for eternity in a lake of fire. Like many Pentecostals, Palin may even imagine that she and her fellow parishioners enjoy the power of prophecy themselves. Otherwise, what could she have meant when declaring to her congregation that "God's going to tell you what is going on, and what is going to go on, and you guys are going to have that within you"?

You can learn something about a person by the company she keeps. In the churches where Palin has worshiped for decades, parishioners enjoy "baptism in the Holy Spirit," "miraculous healings" and "the gift of tongues." Invariably, they offer astonishingly irrational accounts of this behavior and of its significance for the entire cosmos. Palin's spiritual colleagues describe themselves as part of "the final generation," engaged in "spiritual warfare" to purge the earth of "demonic strongholds." Palin has spent her entire adult life immersed in this apocalyptic hysteria. Ask yourself: Is it a good idea to place the most powerful military on earth at her disposal? Do we actually want our leaders thinking about the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy when it comes time to say to the Iranians, or to the North Koreans, or to the Pakistanis, or to the Russians or to the Chinese: "All options remain on the table"?

— Sam Harris

Z said...

i give up. I expected nothing more from you after having seen your idiotic posts at FPM for so many years now. YOu just love to fight and it's simply not my nature.

If this is your idea of great fun, FIRE AWAY! It's no skin off my back.

I've told you many times dissent is welcome here. Stupid mischaracteriziations and innuendos based on nothing are not.

psi bond..you are really a very sick little man, aren't you. I'm so sorry for you.

psi bond said...

Do I like to eat snails?

No, I prefer fast food.

(((Thought Criminal))) said...

Ducky,

It will become obvious that it is more accurate to compare her to Dan Quale

That's the Dan Quayle that was elected Vice-President, right?

(((Thought Criminal))) said...

Psi Bond,

You seem to be afflicted by the tragically common misconception that leftists are actually capable of rational thought.

Or is it really the case that you're championing the idea that our Vice-President should be a guy that worships in a church that regards an old man in Rome to be God's infallible spokesman?

psi bond said...

beamish, you seem proudly taken in by the Rushbovian canard that liberals (beginning with John Stuart Mill, I suppose) can’t do rational thought.

Evidently, you are touting the Palin-McCain ticket — Palin being one inspired by a pastor (Thomas Muthee) whose most notable achievement is forcing a woman whom he accused of witchcraft to flee her village in Africa.

Brooke said...

Oh, B.S.

I always find it amusing when lefties start slamming Palin's church with nonsense they got of the Kos site.

I mean, we should totally elect a guy that listened to God damn America for 20 years. 'Cause Black Liberation Theology is so warm and fuzzy. No hate there.

elmers brother said...

Palin's most conspicuous gaffe in her interview with Gibson has been widely discussed. The truth is, I didn't much care that she did not know the meaning of the phrase "Bush doctrine."

Gibson didn't even know the meaning.

elmers brother said...

hey duhkkky the least you could do is provide the whole quote of Thatcher's

There is no such thing as society: there are individual men and women, and there are families.

elmers brother said...

Margaret Thatcher

To me, consensus seems to be the process of abandoning all beliefs, principles, values and policies. So it is something in which no one believes and to which no one objects

Nothing is more obstinate than a fashionable consensus.

There are still people in my party who believe in consensus politics. I regard them as Quislings, as traitors... I mean it.

"Consensus is the negation of leadership."

cube said...

Great post. Thatcher has long been my hero. I would certainly love to see Palin follow in her footsteps.

psi bond said...

Your sarcasm notwithstanding, brooke, the black liberation theology of Wright’s church is mostly about black self-help. You are also incorrect about how long Obama was a member of that church —he joined in 1992, sixteen years ago.

And you got it wrong about where I found Harris’s commentary. It was not from Kos, but from a much less controversial source. You are also mistaken about Harris’s intent — it was not to slam Palin’s church (as a matter of faith, all faiths are valid), but to voice legitimate concerns about how the out-of-the-mainstream religious dogma she believes in may adversely impact all of us should she become President of the United States.

psi bond said...

Krauthammer got it wrong, elmers brother. The initial meaning of the Bush Doctrine popularized in the press is essentially the one Gibson gave in the Palin interview. That is the one dominating political discussions, not the unrelated definition Krauthammer once proposed, for which he wants to claim credit for having invented.

The Bush Doctrine is a phrase used to describe various related foreign policy principles of United States president George W. Bush, created in the wake of the September 11, 2001 attacks. The phrase initially described the policy that the United States had the right to treat countries that harbor or give aid to terrorist groups as terrorists themselves, which was used to justify the invasion of Afghanistan.[ Later it came to include additional elements, including the controversial policy of preventive war, which held that the United States should depose foreign regimes that represented a potential or perceived threat to the security of the United States, even if that threat was not immediate (used to justify the invasion of Iraq); a policy of supporting democracy around the world, especially in the Middle East, as a strategy for combating the spread of terrorism; and a willingness to pursue U.S. military interests in a unilateral way.
—Wikipedia

Nonetheless. the definition of the Bush Doctrine is not central to the concerns of the author I quoted..

Z said...

psi bond, you need to look into Obama's church; GOD D*** AMERICA shouldn't be part of Black 'self help'.

On all the rest, your opinion is welcome but not gospel. We all have opinions here, all we ask is that people stay civil.
thank you.

Anonymous said...

even if preempive strike is the definition

ever heard of the Korean War?

elmers brother said...

There is no "Bush Doctrine." At best it is a squishy idea.

Anonymous said...

The right of anticipatory self-defense is already enshrined in international law.

Z said...

Anonymous: Yup. Unless AMERICA FINDS IT NECESSARY!

psi bond said...

Z: psi bond, you need to look into Obama's church; GOD D*** AMERICA shouldn't be part of Black 'self help'.

On all the rest, your opinion is welcome but not gospel. We all have opinions here, all we ask is that people stay civil.


I am civil, Z. Although you sometimes try to be insulting (e.g.,above: “psi bond. you are really a very sick little man, aren't you”), I will not respond in kind. I will always be civil.

My views are just the humble opinion of one person, as are those of everyone else here.

However, if you look into it, you will find the facts show that Wright’s church has long been very active in community organizing with a wide range of outreach ministries. The church has also articulated a cohesive set of principles aimed at elevating the poor South Chicago black community.

Its ministries are “established to celebrate our culture as people of the African diaspora”, “designed to deepen our relationship with Christ”, and “created to assist in the transformation of our Community”.

Damning America is not any part of that. That was over-the-top rhetoric that Jeremiah Wright, the church’s former pastor, engaged in when he was carried away by his considerable oratorical powers. It should not be identified with or allowed to overshadow the good work and laudable goals of his church, as rightwingers have done their best to do who are doggedly determined to blacken Obama’s character.

psi bond said...

elmers brother: There is no "Bush Doctrine." At best it is a squishy idea.

The main elements of the Bush Doctrine were delineated in a National Security Council document, the National Security Strategy of the United States, published on September 20, 2002. This document is often cited as the definitive statement of the Doctrine. It was updated in 2006 and is stated as follows:

It is an enduring American principle that this duty obligates the government to anticipate and counter threats, using all elements of national power, before the threats can do grave damage. The greater the threat, the greater is the risk of inaction – and the more compelling the case for taking anticipatory action to defend ourselves, even if uncertainty remains as to the time and place of the enemy’s attack. There are few greater threats than a terrorist attack with WMD. To forestall or prevent such hostile acts by our adversaries, the United States will, if necessary, act preemptively in exercising our inherent right of self-defense.

The wording of this document, prepared by the executive branch for Congress, is firm, not squishy.

However, none of this is relevant to the commentary of the author I quoted above.

elmers brother said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
elmers brother said...

out of the mainstream?

at least Palin's church is much more mainstream Christianity.

from Trinity's website:

Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness." Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must be able to identify the "talented tenth" of those subjugated, especially those who show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captor's control.
Those so identified are separated from the rest of the people by:

Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another. Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons. Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which, while training them to earn more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them to think in terms of "we" and "they" instead of "us."
So, while it is permissible to chase "middleclassness" with all our might, we must avoid the third separation method - the psychological entrapment of Black "middleclassness." If we avoid this snare, we will also diminish our "voluntary" contributions to methods A and B. And more importantly, Black people no longer will be deprived of their birthright: the leadership, resourcefulness and example of their own talented persons.
Pledge to Make the Fruits of All Developing and Acquired Skills Available to the Black Community.
Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions.
Pledge Allegiance to All Black Leadership Who Espouse and Embrace the Black Value System.
Personal Commitment to Embracement of the Black Value System. To measure the worth and validity of all activity in terms of positive contributions to the general welfare of the Black Community and the Advancement of Black People towards freedom.

“The Black family circle must generate strength, stability, and love despite the uncertainty
of externals, because these characteristics are required if the developing person is to
withstand warping by our racist competitive society.”

who's generating the racist society if not these value systems?

They're nothing but separatist rants. That's way out of the mainstream.

Well that Wikipedia article you cite seems to include several interpretations of that definitiveNSC document. One such interpretation includes democratic regime change.

The NSC document also includes US aid for the poor in developing countries, AIDS relief etc. Why is this not included in the definitive definition?

Democratic regime change in Iraq was Clinton's idea. He signed the Iraq Liberation ACt

The Act declared that it was the Policy of the United States to support "regime change." The Act was passed 360-38 in the U.S. House of Representatives [2] and by unanimous consent in the Senate. [3] US President Bill Clinton signed the bill into law on October 31, 1998. The law's stated purpose was: "to establish a program to support a transition to democracy in Iraq." Specifically, Congress made findings of past Iraqi military actions in violation of International Law and that Iraq had denied entry of United Nations Special Commission on Iraq (UNSCOM) inspectors into its country to inspect for weapons of mass destruction. Congress found: "It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime." On December 16, 1998, President Bill Clinton mandated Operation Desert Fox, a major four-day bombing campaign on Iraqi targets.

and preemption isn't anything new..as is already noted (the reasons may be different i.e. containment) but the right of preemption is nothing new.

psi bond said...

elmers brother: out of the mainstream?

at least Palin's church is much more mainstream Christianity.


You have taken my phrase out of its context and are now applying it to the far-reaching self-help social program of a church in South Chicago and the rationalization considered necessary to justify it. The context for my use of the phrase was: “out-of-the-mainstream religious dogma”. Comparing things in the same category, the religious beliefs of this church are more traditional Christian than those of the Alaskan church to which you wish to compare it. Palin's spiritual colleagues describe themselves as part of "the final generation," engaged in "spiritual warfare" to purge the earth of "demonic strongholds."

The NSC document also includes US aid for the poor in developing countries, AIDS relief etc. Why is this not included in the definitive definition?

Because it is not part of the commonly understood notion of the Bush Doctrine. U.S. aid to poor countries is not usually linked to pre-emptive war and U.S. national defense. Your point originally was that the Doctrine was “squishy”. Now your point is that it is not really new. Many can cite what may or may not be precedents for the policy, but the fact is the doctrine in the form famously proclaimed by Bush shortly after 9/11 now has a widely recognized name–––the Bush Doctrine–––that is embedded in the journalistic literature. Regime change is often included in the Doctrine as a corollary of pre-emptive war.

elmers brother: Democratic regime change in Iraq was Clinton's idea. He signed the Iraq Liberation ACt.

The Iraq Liberation Act that Clinton signed into law said that:

Nothing in this Act shall be construed to authorize or otherwise speak to the use of United States Armed Forces (except as provided in section 4(a)(2)) in carrying out this Act.

Section 4(a)(2) states:

The President is authorized to direct the drawdown of defense articles from the stocks of the Department of Defense, defense services of the Department of Defense, and military education and training for [Iraqi democratic opposition] organizations.

The Act was not an authorization to use U.S. military forces in Iraq for regime change; it was intended to aid democratic opposition organizations in Iraq with that purpose.

However, these points aren’t significant issues in the commentary I quoted above.

(((Thought Criminal))) said...

Psi Bond,

It shouldn't even be up for doubt the widely demonstrable observation that leftists are indeed incapable of rational thought.

For example, your conflation of my saying "leftist" with the word "liberal" to attempt a lame rebuttal to my question. As an aside, I would point out that your reply is entirely consistent with my longstanding observations that leftists usually lack reading comprehension skills.

To that, I would add the evidence you further provide above dismissing Charles Krauthammer, the man that coined the phrase "Bush Doctrine," as not knowing what he was talking about.

You're not even remotely trying to convince anyone you're capable of rationality, are you?

(((Thought Criminal))) said...

Psi Bond,

And you got it wrong about where I found Harris’s commentary. It was not from Kos, but from a much less controversial source. You are also mistaken about Harris’s intent — it was not to slam Palin’s church (as a matter of faith, all faiths are valid), but to voice legitimate concerns about how the out-of-the-mainstream religious dogma she believes in may adversely impact all of us should she become President of the United States.

While it might be fun to hear exactly how your rationality-deficient leftist (pardon the redundancy) mind spins the fabric between "all faiths are valid" and what exactly a "mainstream religious dogma" is, I'm afraid I'd be bored to tears attempting to teach you the English language enough to appreciate precisely how glaringly imbecilic your statement is here.

Let's stick to the red meat. You'd rather have a Vice President that is a member of a religion that believes there's a guy in Rome that is God's infallible voice on Earth.

Let's suppose, for a moment, Joe Biden comes home to the Naval Observatory from one of his daily drinking binges, and pukes up a puddle of black and tan that looks vaguely shaped like the Virgin Mary.

Can you imagine the national crisis we'd have on our hands, with the Pope declaring Biden's living room carpet a religious icon?

psi bond said...

It shouldn't even be up for doubt the widely demonstrable observation that leftists are indeed incapable of rational thought.

You're indubitably right, beamish. If Rush said it, it’s true–––no need to even think about it. Rush’s pronouncements are infallible.

For example, your conflation of my saying "leftist" with the word "liberal" to attempt a lame rebuttal to my question. As an aside, I would point out that your reply is entirely consistent with my longstanding observations that leftists usually lack reading comprehension skills.

It has nothing to do with reading skills. You lack an understanding of my intent. I always deliberately use the word ‘liberal’ when people like you use the word ‘leftist’ in talking about people like me. Rightwingers have a tendency not to perceive significant distinctions. The term ‘leftists’ is overbroad and vague. What is generally true about those at the extremity of the political spectrum is often not true about those at the center. My observation is that rightwing extremists have a penchant for being overconfident about their misperceptions.

To that, I would add the evidence you further provide above dismissing Charles Krauthammer, the man that coined the phrase "Bush Doctrine," as not knowing what he was talking about..

Krauthammer may have coined the term to mean the Bush administration policy of unilaterally withdrawing from the ABM treaty and rejecting the Kyoto Protocol. That is not the widely understood sense of the term today in the journalistic literature and popular usage. A word in English means what its acquired common usage is — which is not necessarily what the one who coined it may have intended. The blunders of the Iraq war have highlighted the challenges of implementing the Bush Doctrine.

You're not even remotely trying to convince anyone you're capable of rationality, are you?

You're not even remotely persuading me that you understand what you are blathering about.

psi bond said...

While it might be fun to hear exactly how your rationality-deficient leftist (pardon the redundancy) mind spins the fabric between "all faiths are valid" and what exactly a "mainstream religious dogma" is, I'm afraid I'd be bored to tears attempting to teach you the English language enough to appreciate precisely how glaringly imbecilic your statement is here.

O frabjous day! It is amusing for me to come across someone who has no understanding that validity and the extent of distribution are distinct. Like a minority opinion nonetheless can have validity.

Let's stick to the red meat. You'd rather have a Vice President that is a member of a religion that believes there's a guy in Rome that is God's infallible voice on Earth.

There is no red meat for you here, my beamish boy. This issue is obsolete. It was interred almost fifty years ago in the Kennedy era. You may be the only one extant who is troubled by it, or who makes believe he is.

Let's suppose, for a moment, Joe Biden comes home to the Naval Observatory from one of his daily drinking binges, and pukes up a puddle of black and tan that looks vaguely shaped like the Virgin Mary.

Assuming he does have daily drinking binges, I doubt he would be able to tell the difference between an image of the Virgin Mary and one of Madonna (the entertainer).

Can you imagine the national crisis we'd have on our hands, with the Pope declaring Biden's living room carpet a religious icon?

The Pope is not a dope. But should it come to that, the carpet is exportable and replaceable. Or it can be cleaned should an earmark be granted. That’s self evident to a rational mind.

Since McCain doesn’t have finger dexterity, Sarah will probably get charge of the nuclear button. If she gets the Word from her pastor that the End Time has finally arrived, she won’t blink when doing her part, for she will be dying to be raptured.

Ducky's here said...

"...guy in Rome that is God's infallible voice on Earth."

------------------

Someone tell Beamish the Dimbulb that the Pope is only infallible ex cathedra speaking of matters of church doctrine.

Beamish, being a cheap bigot is bad. Being an ignorant cheap bigot is even worse.

Ducky's here said...

"... at least Palin's church is much more mainstream Christianity."

She's Protestant, how can that be possible. Weird logic afoot there Elmo.

Z said...

Ducky, I'm curious. You're dismissive of Protestants...and declare yourself to be a Roman Catholic.

What about your church dogma do you uphold and which do you dismiss?

Ducky's here said...

z, I dismiss the teachings on birth control. Beyond that I'm a pretty straight ahead Catholic.

I also support choice for victims of rape or incest(it is repugnant for someone to think they can force someone to bear a rapists fetus to term) and believe that the instance of abortion would be drastically lowered with access to birth control.

As far as gay marriage, it's a civil affair and there isn't any need to deny equal protection in civil matters. The marriage would not be recognized by the church but many many civil marriages are legal and not church sanctioned.

I believe in the just war doctrine though and Iraq is a big huge FAIL under that one.

Ducky's here said...

Also z, my response was quite sarcastic partially in reply to the incredibly bigoted crap that Beamish posted and which you seem fine with not censoring.

(((Thought Criminal))) said...

Psibond -

It shouldn't even be up for doubt the widely demonstrable observation that leftists are indeed incapable of rational thought.

You're indubitably right, beamish. If Rush said it, it’s true–––no need to even think about it. Rush’s pronouncements are infallible.

I'm a big fan of Rush, at least from their early work on up to their "Hold Your Fire" album. What does this have to do with the fact that leftists are incapable of rationality? Why are you talking about Rush at all, save to serve the purposes of my demonstrating to everyone here that leftists like you are incapable of rationality?

For example, your conflation of my saying "leftist" with the word "liberal" to attempt a lame rebuttal to my question. As an aside, I would point out that your reply is entirely consistent with my longstanding observations that leftists usually lack reading comprehension skills.

It has nothing to do with reading skills. You lack an understanding of my intent. I always deliberately use the word ‘liberal’ when people like you use the word ‘leftist’ in talking about people like me. Rightwingers have a tendency not to perceive significant distinctions. The term ‘leftists’ is overbroad and vague. What is generally true about those at the extremity of the political spectrum is often not true about those at the center. My observation is that rightwing extremists have a penchant for being overconfident about their misperceptions.

I do perceive significant distinctions. Given your readily identified lack of reading comprehension skills and complete absence of rationality, it's hard not to conclude you're anything but a leftist. The trail of drool on your chin practically screams it. Since I was talking about leftists, you, let's not go off topic about "liberals" and "centrists." Focus.

...

While it might be fun to hear exactly how your rationality-deficient leftist (pardon the redundancy) mind spins the fabric between "all faiths are valid" and what exactly a "mainstream religious dogma" is, I'm afraid I'd be bored to tears attempting to teach you the English language enough to appreciate precisely how glaringly imbecilic your statement is here.

O frabjous day! It is amusing for me to come across someone who has no understanding that validity and the extent of distribution are distinct. Like a minority opinion nonetheless can have validity.

Frabjous?! Now you're mispelling words that don't exist.

But, since you really want the English lesson, let's concentrate on my theme that leftists are incapable of rationality. Such as the ability to argue logically. How large is the extent of distribution of "all faiths?" Hmm?

Let's stick to the red meat. You'd rather have a Vice President that is a member of a religion that believes there's a guy in Rome that is God's infallible voice on Earth.

There is no red meat for you here, my beamish boy. This issue is obsolete. It was interred almost fifty years ago in the Kennedy era. You may be the only one extant who is troubled by it, or who makes believe he is.

I'm only troubled that you're willing to examine Sarah Palin's alleged religious beliefs but not Obama's or Biden's, or even McCain's?

Where are you going to be on the issue 50 years after the McCain-Palin administration leaves office?

Let's suppose, for a moment, Joe Biden comes home to the Naval Observatory from one of his daily drinking binges, and pukes up a puddle of black and tan that looks vaguely shaped like the Virgin Mary.

Assuming he does have daily drinking binges, I doubt he would be able to tell the difference between an image of the Virgin Mary and one of Madonna (the entertainer).

Well, yes. The man after all does believe FDR wheelchaired himself out on national television in 1929.

Can you imagine the national crisis we'd have on our hands, with the Pope declaring Biden's living room carpet a religious icon?

The Pope is not a dope. But should it come to that, the carpet is exportable and replaceable. Or it can be cleaned should an earmark be granted. That’s self evident to a rational mind.

Since McCain doesn’t have finger dexterity, Sarah will probably get charge of the nuclear button. If she gets the Word from her pastor that the End Time has finally arrived, she won’t blink when doing her part, for she will be dying to be raptured.


And since this is not even a rational argument - if not the idea that Palin's pastor has the Pope's ability to speak on God's behalf, then the idea that our nuclear arsenal can be launched by pushing a single button - need I say more about the leftist incapability to emit rational statements from their minds?

(((Thought Criminal))) said...

Ducky,

Someone tell Beamish the Dimbulb that the Pope is only infallible ex cathedra speaking of matters of church doctrine.

Yes, yes. When the Holy Spirit comes upon him.

Z said...

Ducky, I adore Beamish. This is my blog and on my homepage I say I'll delete anything I feel is 'delete provoking'...he'd have to go some.

This isn't a public forum like FPM, this isn't fair and doesn't have to be. It's mine.

ALSO: The Catholic beliefs are: The Bible is the inerrant word of God, do you believe that? Do you believe Jesus is the son of the Virgin Mary?
Do you believe faith in Jesus Christ gives you eternal life?

psi bond said...

beamish: I'm a big fan of Rush, at least from their early work on up to their "Hold Your Fire" album. What does this have to do with the fact that leftists are incapable of rationality? Why are you talking about Rush at all, save to serve the purposes of my demonstrating to everyone here that leftists like you are incapable of rationality?

Obnoxiousness and willful confusion are not honest substitutes for logic. In a political discussion, everyone who is politically aware knows that ‘Rush’ is a reference not to the Canadian rock band Rush, but to the more widely known entertainer Rush Limbaugh — aka el Rushbo. And, again as everyone knows. el Rushbo is the founding father of the modern passionate contempt for liberals–––i.e., leftists, in the vituperation of those who feel the term ‘liberal’ has lost the pejorative connotation of former days in many precincts. El Rushbo is the chief promulgator of the notion that liberals are incapable of rational thought.

I do perceive significant distinctions. Given your readily identified lack of reading comprehension skills and complete absence of rationality, it's hard not to conclude you're anything but a leftist. The trail of drool on your chin practically screams it. Since I was talking about leftists, you, let's not go off topic about "liberals" and "centrists." Focus.

You clearly do not perceive significant distinctions, beamish. Extreme rightwingers like to believe that words mean just what they declare them to mean. Objectively speaking, lack of good reading comprehension skills and a posited complete absence of Aristotelian rationality are unrelated to a person’s political views. It is not because of any lack of reading skills that I have replaced your overbroad term ‘leftists’ with ‘liberals’ when talking of people like me. Not all leftists are liberals. Leftists are often identified, especially in the rightwing mind, with socialists and communists. I am a liberal. Similarly, not all conservatives are fascists. It appears that those who freely substitute ‘leftists’ for ‘liberals’ want to promote the conflation of liberals with socialists and communists (just as twentieth century fascists had attempted to do with other groups). That is, for purposes of smearing opponents, they seek to encourage a lack of sharp focus

Frabjous?! Now you're mispelling words that don't exist.

‘Frabjous’ is a word well known to those acquainted with English literature. In fact, it gets about 107,000 Google hits. It is an example of a portmanteau word, which was coined by Lewis Carroll in his famous poem
Jabberwocky to mean a combination of fair, fabulous, and joyous:

"And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!"
He chortled in his joy.


But I don’t want to lecture here–––that’s enough of an English lesson for today, beamish.

But, since you really want the English lesson, let's concentrate on my theme that leftists are incapable of rationality. Such as the ability to argue logically. How large is the extent of distribution of "all faiths?" Hmm?

If you are able to concentrate rationally on your question, you will find it contains an illogical assumption. It is not logical to speak of the distribution of all faiths, as if that were a meaningful concept. The distribution of all faiths is humankind. Rather, it is logical to speak of the distribution of a particular faith or of each faith. But, to stay on point, the distribution of a faith is not a determinant of its validity. For example, it cannot logically be said that Judaism, since it is the faith of only a tiny minority of the earth’s population, is not valid. You are trying to tar ‘leftists’ en masse with the Rushbovian curse of irrationality, yet you show no evidence of rationality in your own thinking. Hmmmm: It seems thou dost undermine thyself.

I'm only troubled that you're willing to examine Sarah Palin's alleged religious beliefs but not Obama's or Biden's, or even McCain's?

Then why haven’t you said so before? I have discussed rightwing distortions of Obama’s faith above, though not McCain’s faith. We could do that, but that would blur the focus from the supposedly serious concerns you expressed in this discussion about Biden’s faith. Those concerns are not based on anything substantial. As Ducky appropriately pointed out, the pope’s infallible statements are understood to apply only to matters of religious faith and religious doctrine.

Probably Palin’s beliefs are a larger concern to many because we have not had a president before who believes similarly and because such beliefs naturally inspire fears of a deficiency of levelheadedness in a time of great crisis.

Where are you going to be on the issue 50 years after the McCain-Palin administration leaves office?

Fifty years after a Palin-McCain administration, (as Palin, by way of a gaffe, has referred to it on the stump) if I am anywhere, I will likely be trying to adapt to a radioactive environment while pondering why Palin destroyed or crippled the civilized world without rational corroboration that her pastor was not only rightwing but right on. One saving thought though: We won’t have Palin to pick on anymore.

Well, yes. The man after all does believe FDR wheelchaired himself out on national television in 1929.

Well, no: A gaffe such as all the candidates have made is not rational proof (not even 80 proof)of daily drinking binges.

And since this is not even a rational argument - if not the idea that Palin's pastor has the Pope's ability to speak on God's behalf, then the idea that our nuclear arsenal can be launched by pushing a single button - need I say more about the leftist incapability to emit rational statements from their minds?

Rationally speaking, no one who is human has the authority to speak on God’s behalf. Nonetheless, many religious people believe such persons exist.

If you reread what I wrote, you will see that I did not unequivocally state that a single button can launch our nuclear arsenal. However, since, as we are told, McCain lacks digital dexterity, it is not implausible to suppose that Sarah would be given control of what is known in American lore as the “Nuclear Football” (also called The Black Box or The Button), which presumably has a nuclear enabling button that is activated when one logs in by punching on a keyboard some multi-character code and has keys for selecting a nuclear attack option–––use of which requires digital dexterity, which McCain allegedly doesn’t have (I believe I already said that, by the way).

In sum, the feeble arguments you offer herein, beamish, should be sufficient to conclude the irrationality of your putative thinking processes and the resulting implausibility of your extravagant Rushbovian contention.

(((Thought Criminal))) said...

Psibond-

Obnoxiousness and willful confusion are not honest substitutes for logic. In a political discussion, everyone who is politically aware knows that ‘Rush’ is a reference not to the Canadian rock band Rush, but to the more widely known entertainer Rush Limbaugh — aka el Rushbo. And, again as everyone knows. el Rushbo is the founding father of the modern passionate contempt for liberals–––i.e., leftists, in the vituperation of those who feel the term ‘liberal’ has lost the pejorative connotation of former days in many precincts. El Rushbo is the chief promulgator of the notion that liberals are incapable of rational thought.

I've never head Rush Limbaugh say such a thing, but then again I don't listen to his show often enough to speak authoratively on what he says.

Maybe he's right. You seem awful hysterical about wanting to be the first "liberal" not associated with the left-of-center. Why is that?

You clearly do not perceive significant distinctions, beamish. Extreme rightwingers like to believe that words mean just what they declare them to mean. bjectively speaking, lack of good reading comprehension skills and a posited complete absence of Aristotelian rationality are unrelated to a person’s political views. It is not because of any lack of reading skills that I have replaced your overbroad term ‘leftists’ with ‘liberals’ when talking of people like me. Not all leftists are liberals. Leftists are often identified, especially in the rightwing mind, with socialists and communists. I am a liberal. Similarly, not all conservatives are fascists. It appears that those who freely substitute ‘leftists’ for ‘liberals’ want to promote the conflation of liberals with socialists and communists (just as twentieth century fascists had attempted to do with other groups). That is, for purposes of smearing opponents, they seek to encourage a lack of sharp focus

I encourage the sharpest focus, by pointing out the smear you're attempting to paint Sarah Palin and her alleged religious beliefs with as an example of the leftist incapacity for rational thought.

I will continue to do so.

If you are able to concentrate rationally on your question, you will find it contains an illogical assumption. It is not logical to speak of the distribution of all faiths, as if that were a meaningful concept. The distribution of all faiths is humankind. Rather, it is logical to speak of the distribution of a particular faith or of each faith. But, to stay on point, the distribution of a faith is not a determinant of its validity. For example, it cannot logically be said that Judaism, since it is the faith of only a tiny minority of the earth’s population, is not valid. You are trying to tar ‘leftists’ en masse with the Rushbovian curse of irrationality, yet you show no evidence of rationality in your own thinking. Hmmmm: It seems thou dost undermine thyself.

Your premises are "all faiths are valid" and "Sarah Palin's alleged religious views are out of the mainstream" and "even minority faiths are valid."

Follow the bouncing ball. If all faiths are valid, then Sarah Palin's alleged Nuke-the-Gay-Baby-Seals-For-Jesus faith and Biden's puke theophanies are valid.

Then why haven’t you said so before? I have discussed rightwing distortions of Obama’s faith above, though not McCain’s faith. We could do that, but that would blur the focus from the supposedly serious concerns you expressed in this discussion about Biden’s faith. Those concerns are not based on anything substantial. As Ducky appropriately pointed out, the pope’s infallible statements are understood to apply only to matters of religious faith and religious doctrine.

You're attempting to make a distinction without a difference. What would Sarah Palin's pastor's possibly fallible statements (Pentacostals are humble, yo) be understood as, if not religious faith (remember all are valid!) and religious doctrine? (out of the mainstream minority sects are valid also, right?)

If you're going to provide evidence of a rational mind in your skull, could you at least give me an estimated arrival date?

psi bond said...

I've never head Rush Limbaugh say such a thing, but then again I don't listen to his show often enough to speak authoratively on what he says.

“I’ve never head”? I don’t think it’s my reading skills but your writing skills that are in need of development, beamish. However, ignorance is no excuse–––el Rushbo’s influence is pervasive among listeners and non-listeners alike.

Maybe he's right.

His dictum about rationality is identical to your religiously held contention about what you call ‘leftists’. If he is not right, you are wrong–––that’s logic.

You seem awful hysterical about wanting to be the first "liberal" not associated with the left-of-center.

Guilt by association is among the rightwing’s favorite things. Your feeling of awful hysteria is something you have read into what I explained

Why is that?.

I explained it. If you don’t understand it, try reading it again–––slowly.

I encourage the sharpest focus, by pointing out the smear you're attempting to paint Sarah Palin and her alleged religious beliefs with as an example of the leftist incapacity for rational thought.

If, when doing one’s job, one is disturbed or unfocused because of thoughts not related to one’s job, there is legitimate cause for concern about one’s fitness for doing the job. For instance, if an airline pilot or a train engineer is broken up over a broken romance, he may not be paying attention to what he needs to do to get his passengers safely to their destination. Those who cannot see this as a rational concern put in question their capacity for rational thought.

I will continue to do so.

Obstinacy may be an indicator of blindness.

Your premises are "all faiths are valid" and "Sarah Palin's alleged religious views are out of the mainstream" and "even minority faiths are valid."

They are not my premises. I draw no logical conclusion based on the statement that all faiths are valid. It is a parenthetical article of faith, not the antecedent to a logical conclusion.

Follow the bouncing ball. If all faiths are valid, then Sarah Palin's alleged Nuke-the-Gay-Baby-Seals-For-Jesus faith and Biden's puke theophanies are valid.

Now you're changing to a different kind of ball. It makes no logical sense to talk of the distribution of all faiths, as you attempted to do. Also, although, as a matter of faith, both Biden’s faith and Palin’s faith are valid, they have no place in the Oval Office or the cabinet room.

You're attempting to make a distinction without a difference. What would Sarah Palin's pastor's possibly fallible statements (Pentacostals are humble, yo) be understood as, if not religious faith (remember all are valid!) and religious doctrine? (out of the mainstream minority sects are valid also, right?)

You're attempting to make believe there is no distinction between what I said and what you are saying I said. All faiths are valid, but Americans deserve some assurance that a president will make a separation between her religion and the business of running the state and making policy. Since the McCain camp is not allowing reporters to talk to her and only allowing carefully controlled, limited interviews, that needed assurance is lacking. Palin has said she believes a pastor who is known for literal witch hunting had a crucial role in helping her gain the governorship. So, perhaps, she believes it is her mission to being us without blinking into the End Times, leaving behind those of us who are doubters.

If you're going to provide evidence of a rational mind in your skull, could you at least give me an estimated arrival date?

If you're going to reduce the level of political discussion by extravagantly claiming that a large group of Americans lacks the capacity for rationality, you need to provide some evidence that you can argue rationally–––I’m waiting for it, beamish.

Brooke said...

I think it's been proven for him...

Ducky's here said...

z, no Catholics do not pay much attention to the OT. They don't believe the seven day creation is literal.

We do believe that we are redeemed by works. Without works there is no faith which is why so many Protestants are merely whitened sepulchers.

Z said...

Ducky, I'm chuckling here. There are so many scriptures saying saving has NOTHING to do with GOOD DEEDS and some comment in James that reminds us that faith in Christ creates a new heart and THEN you WANT to do good works.

NEVER are they necessary. NEVER. Not in the Bible..."Faith in Christ ALONE".....you should read it, it's one of the tenets most easily disprovable about Catholicism, which I am not basher of, by the way. I have never thought Catholics aren't Christians, even though this dogma alone is what gives Protestants the most pause because of so much Scripture backing it up.

Virgin Birth, Ducky? Whether the days of creation are literal, some Catholics DO believe that, I know that for a fact, and it's a pity you don't read the O.T., there are more prophecies in that alone and such incredible information about God's righteousness.

I always say those who don't read the Old Testament are like a body of Christ without the bones. It's educational and vital to the Christian faith. I know many friends have left Catholicism because of the lack of Bible study...I can't imagine following a faith where the Scripture is THE only thing that informs it and ignoring half. But, I do respect some things about the church...as I said, I'm not a basher, I find that stupid and UNChristian.

(((Thought Criminal))) said...

Psibond,

His dictum about rationality is identical to your religiously held contention about what you call ‘leftists’. If he is not right, you are wrong–––that’s logic.

Well, I'll wait for you to decide if liberals are leftists. If Rush Limbaugh and you agree that liberals are leftists, then he's right about liberals being incaple of rational thought, as evidenced by any number of your pitiful attempts at not being labled incapable of rational thought. I stop at the understanding that leftists are incapable of rational thought. My contention is that leftists are incapable of rational thought. Whether that applies to liberals in your mind or Rush Limbaugh's mind is irrelevant to my argument. I believe liberals are moderately capable of rational thought, but are usually philosophically resistant to demonstrating this ability in public. That'a an entirely different argument.

Let's stick to the point that applies to you: leftists are incapable of rational thought.

If, when doing one’s job, one is disturbed or unfocused because of thoughts not related to one’s job, there is legitimate cause for concern about one’s fitness for doing the job. For instance, if an airline pilot or a train engineer is broken up over a broken romance, he may not be paying attention to what he needs to do to get his passengers safely to their destination. Those who cannot see this as a rational concern put in question their capacity for rational thought.

I'm sure the audience is enjoying your willing compliance with being my example of leftists being incapable of rational thought.

You probably actually do believe Sarah Palin's religion calls for her to bring on the Apocalypse.

When you're ready to defend this as a rational belief, we'll be waiting.

Now you're changing to a different kind of ball. It makes no logical sense to talk of the distribution of all faiths, as you attempted to do. Also, although, as a matter of faith, both Biden’s faith and Palin’s faith are valid, they have no place in the Oval Office or the cabinet room.

You're correct. It doesn't make any logical sense to talk about the distribution of all, which is why I'm using your statement of such to demonstrate leftists are incapable of rational thought.

Don't worry, most of us knew this before you said a word.

You're attempting to make believe there is no distinction between what I said and what you are saying I said. All faiths are valid, but Americans deserve some assurance that a president will make a separation between her religion and the business of running the state and making policy. Since the McCain camp is not allowing reporters to talk to her and only allowing carefully controlled, limited interviews, that needed assurance is lacking. Palin has said she believes a pastor who is known for literal witch hunting had a crucial role in helping her gain the governorship. So, perhaps, she believes it is her mission to being us without blinking into the End Times, leaving behind those of us who are doubters.

Well, you can't fix stupid. If leftists were actually capable of rational thought, one would have had a rational thought by now.

You can't demonstrate that Sarah Palin would "bring us without blinking into the End Times," nor can you rationally assume there's any basis whatsoever for that to be a line of inquiry suitable for any follower of her religion or member of her pastor's congregation.

The points that Barack Obama partnered with the founder of the Weather Underground, has declared that as President he would meet unconditionally with the leadership of state sponsors of terrorism, has chosen Tehran's favorite Senator as his running mate, and has the ringing endorsement of Hamas, Hezbollah, and other terrorist organizations must really sting to have you flailing like this.

Will Sarah Palin cause Armageddon. Please, get a life.

If you're going to reduce the level of political discussion by extravagantly claiming that a large group of Americans lacks the capacity for rationality, you need to provide some evidence that you can argue rationally–––I’m waiting for it, beamish.

Who said anything about a large group of Americans? I'm talking about leftists. I'm talking about you.

(((Thought Criminal))) said...

Ducky,

z, no Catholics do not pay much attention to the OT.

That is one of the major differences between Christianity and Catholicism, another being that Catholics do not pay much attention to the New Testament either.

Otherwise, one might happen upon a causal relationship behind Catholic-majority nations being shitholes and what the book of Jeremiah warns happens to Queen of Heaven worshippers.

Your mileage may vary.

psi bond said...

His dictum about rationality is identical to your religiously held contention about what you call ‘leftists’. If he is not right, you are wrong–––that’s logic.

Well, I'll wait for you to decide if liberals are leftists. If Rush Limbaugh and you agree that liberals are leftists, then he's right about liberals being incaple of rational thought, as evidenced by any number of your pitiful attempts at not being labled incapable of rational thought.

Even if Rush Limbaugh and I agree that liberals are leftists–––just as it does not logically follow that all leftists are liberals–––neither does it logically follow that Rush is right about all liberals being incapable of rational thought because of assumed (albeit incorrectly assumed) evidence that I have shown myself incapable of rational thought. For one cannot draw a logical conclusion about a population based on the evidence provided by one member of it. For instance, it cannot be said that the population of America believes in God merely because one American who was interviewed said she believed in God.

I stop at the understanding that leftists are incapable of rational thought. My contention is that leftists are incapable of rational thought. Whether that applies to liberals in your mind or Rush Limbaugh's mind is irrelevant to my argument.

Your contention that leftists are incapable of rational thought exists in your mind and the minds of Rush’s “dittoheads”. It has not been objectively demonstrated in the real world to be true of all members of the group you have indicted.

I believe liberals are moderately capable of rational thought, but are usually philosophically resistant to demonstrating this ability in public. That'a an entirely different argument.

It’s an argument for which no credible evidence has been adduced.

Let's stick to the point that applies to you: leftists are incapable of rational thought.

You have failed to rationally show that. In reality, it only applies to how you see leftists.

If, when doing one’s job, one is disturbed or unfocused because of thoughts not related to one’s job, there is legitimate cause for concern about one’s fitness for doing the job. For instance, if an airline pilot or a train engineer is broken up over a broken romance, he may not be paying attention to what he needs to do to get his passengers safely to their destination. Those who cannot see this as a rational concern put in question their capacity for rational thought.

I'm sure the audience is enjoying your willing compliance with being my example of leftists being incapable of rational thought.

This assumption of yours evades dealing with the example of legitimate concern that I provided.
I am sure any rightwingers reading this thread will loyally enjoy anything you can think of saying that demonizes liberals like me. But that is not rational confirmation of your contention.

You probably actually do believe Sarah Palin's religion calls for her to bring on the Apocalypse When you're ready to defend this as a rational belief, we'll be waiting.

I did not say her religious faith requires her personal assistance in bringing that about. I only say that it is a legitimate concern of many Americans that that may be the case. Which is a distinction whose difference seems to escape you.

Now you're changing to a different kind of ball. It makes no logical sense to talk of the distribution of all faiths, as you attempted to do. Also, although, as a matter of faith, both Biden’s faith and Palin’s faith are valid, they have no place in the Oval Office or the cabinet room.

You're correct. It doesn't make any logical sense to talk about the distribution of all, which is why I'm using your statement of such to demonstrate leftists are incapable of rational thought.

In truth, you are the one who introduced the question of the distribution of all faiths as though that were a question that is from a rational point of view. In your post of September 24, 2008 2:26 PM, you wrote: “How large is the extent of distribution of ‘all faiths?’ Hmm?" It makes no more rational sense to talk of the distribution of all faiths than to talk of the distribution of all human languages.

You have disingenuously evaded and obfuscated the main point of the paragraph above––i.e., religious dogma has no place in the Oval Office or the cabinet room.

Don't worry, most of us knew this before you said a word.

Don’t fool yourself; any rational person can see that you are being disingenuous about this.

You're attempting to make believe there is no distinction between what I said and what you are saying I said. All faiths are valid, but Americans deserve some assurance that a president will make a separation between her religion and the business of running the state and making policy. Since the McCain camp is not allowing reporters to talk to her and only allowing carefully controlled, limited interviews, that needed assurance is lacking. Palin has said she believes a pastor who is known for literal witch hunting had a crucial role in helping her gain the governorship. So, perhaps, she believes it is her mission to being us without blinking into the End Times, leaving behind those of us who are doubters.

Well, you can't fix stupid. If leftists were actually capable of rational thought, one would have had a rational thought by now.

I can’t fix your eagerness to be disingenuous. But if all leftists were actually incapable of rational thought, you would have been able to rationally demonstrate that with ease by now.

You can't demonstrate that Sarah Palin would "bring us without blinking into the End Times,"

I don’t have to. I said “perhaps, she believes it”. Not that she does believe it. Your substandard reading skills do not serve you well.

If the McCain camp allows her to have an honest interview, in which she is asked hard questions at length, then whether or not this concern is justified may be clarified.

nor can you rationally assume there's any basis whatsoever for that to be a line of inquiry suitable for any follower of her religion or member of her pastor's congregation.

Of course, one should not ”rationally assume” there is any basis for that. One should rationally demonstrate that there might be a basis for it, which I have done, despite your obfuscation.

The points that Barack Obama partnered with the founder of the Weather Underground, has declared that as President he would meet unconditionally with the leadership of state sponsors of terrorism, has chosen Tehran's favorite Senator as his running mate, and has the ringing endorsement of Hamas, Hezbollah, and other terrorist organizations must really sting to have you flailing like this.

Your exaggerated rightwing misrepresentations about the Democratic candidate are unrelated to my arguments about the Rushbovian contention. You’re not helping to prove you can argue rationally by adding to this thread any irrelevant thing that occurs to you. That is blurring the focus and flailing.

Will Sarah Palin cause Armageddon. Please, get a life.

Please spare me the clichés. Life is a bowl of worries.

From doomsday scenarios coming from Bush and other public figures if we don’t have an agreement on a bailout to doomsday scenarios if someone with an out-of-the-mainstream faith becomes president who may believe there should be no separation of church and state to the variety of doomsday scenarios that many rightwingers are prophesying if Obama is elected–––life is full of worries.

If you're going to reduce the level of political discussion by extravagantly claiming that a large group of Americans lacks the capacity for rationality, you need to provide some evidence that you can argue rationally–––I’m waiting for it, beamish.

Who said anything about a large group of Americans? I'm talking about leftists. I'm talking about you.

Who did? Read it again. I did.

Since liberals in this country constitute a group that numbers in the millions, and since adding to it all other leftists increases that large number a little bit, it certainly makes rational sense to talk of leftists as a large group of Americans. Flatly denying this truism, you do not prove you can argue rationally.

(((Thought Criminal))) said...

Psi Bond,

Since liberals in this country constitute a group that numbers in the millions, and since adding to it all other leftists increases that large number a little bit, it certainly makes rational sense to talk of leftists as a large group of Americans. Flatly denying this truism, you do not prove you can argue rationally.


...I always deliberately use the word ‘liberal’ when people like you use the word ‘leftist’ in talking about people like me. Rightwingers have a tendency not to perceive significant distinctions. The term ‘leftists’ is overbroad and vague. What is generally true about those at the extremity of the political spectrum is often not true about those at the center.

Go argue with yourself, Psi Bond.

psi bond said...

Go argue with yourself, Psi Bond.

beamish, I have no argument with myself.

Liberals are a large group of Americans. If you insist on counting other leftists as well, it is still a large group of Americans, albeit only slightly larger. That is quite clear to a rational person.

psi bond said...

brooke: I think it's been proven for him...

It’s been “proven” using rightwing standards that regard insinuation as rigorous proof.

(((Thought Criminal))) said...

beamish, I have no argument with myself.

Liberals are a large group of Americans. If you insist on counting other leftists as well, it is still a large group of Americans, albeit only slightly larger. That is quite clear to a rational person.


I'm talking about leftists like you. You keep wanting to talk about liberals.

Your argument is "liberals shouldn't be smeared as leftists because liberals are leftists."

My argument is leftists are incapable of rational thought.

I thank you for demonstrating my point.