There are probably better articles about THIS SITUATION, but I found that one and THIS ONE and I'll quickly give a rough overview below. I suggest you at least read the second link for more details and some personal stuff that's thrown in. This isn't a new story, the verdict was read in June of this year, but CNN's doing a series on it and it made me cry and I wondered how you felt.Here's the scenario: a few soldiers are shot at, they capture Iraqis who lead them to tons of ammo and guns, etc., and one speaks English. An American soldier says "Was that you shooting at us? Do you make bombs and shoot at American soldiers with those guns?" The Iraqi laughed hard and, after a fire fight for their lives, the American soldiers had had it.
Their superior officer told them that the Iraqis will be turned in and probably be out very soon to kill more American soldiers. "Do we take them in and let that happen, or do we do them in" (I paraphrase, of course). They blindfolded the Iraqis, took them to a canal and shot them in the head.
The guy who told them to kill the Iraqis is doing life. The prosecuting attorneys said he had to get life for having ordered these men to be killed instead of turning them in. The defense attorney said it was too painful for Master Sgt Hatley to know those Iraqis they'd just fought for their lives against would either get them or other American soldiers as soon as they were out.." he did it because he loved his men too much."
What do you think?
z
51 comments:
I think the only good muzzie is a dead muzzie, but I'm an Army-trained rightwing racist.
It doesn't matter what I think. Zero's in charge, and until we neutralize him, petty PC crap like this will plaque our foreign dealings.
BTW ... I've moved. It would be great if you could update your b-roll. I'm now Snarky Basterd, and I can be found out at http://feedyouradhd.com.
PLAGUE!
"They blindfolded the Iraqis, took them to a canal and shot them in the head. "
Just wrong. Poor judgement. We're better than that. Those techniques are for the Nazis, not Americans fighting for freedom. Thank god that story is an exception and not the rule.
Snark...I'd be happy to ,if I knew who the heck you were before your new moniker.
FB...so we arrest them and set them free to kill our kids the next day. That's a tough one.
It's the age old problem of war - transferring what you have experienced in the anger and rage of battle, to acting on what you think is right in your heart.
The result is usually punishment for breaking the 'rules.'
well said, Sue.
It's the same with cops; they have wives and kids yet are expected to have stellar performance at ALL TIMES, even when being shot at.
We have laws, as FrogBurger rightfully points out, but MAN, it's tough to think of a guy out there in 150 degree weather (a guy I met recently says it gets THAT hot in the tanks in Afgh. and Iraq!), who loves his compatriots, who's just fought for his and his buddys' lives and HE has to follow the rules and the enemy has no rules at all. VERY tough call.
It's why I cried, the tears surprised even me, when I saw the CNN story.......this guy broke the law, Americans are better than Nazis, as FrogBurger points out, BUT...............
and DO we win hearts and minds for being law abiding in the theater of war? OF COURSE NOT. It's like saying we're winning hearts and minds by closing Gitmo. These are people who WANT US DEAD...our reading Mirandas and slamming our own CIA for breaking laws, and chastising administrations for using tough interrogation methods only heightens the enemy's resolve to wait till our laws do US in, then pounce. I really feel that.
It's a very slippery slope, all of it, no matter how we slice it. I just wish we could always err on OUR SIDE. And, sometimes, our laws say "naaa".
If we justify this type of act because we're dealing with beasts, then it never stops. We can keep lowering ourself and our standards and there won't be any lighthouse on this planet anymore.
Call me weak if you want but I have principles.
If they wanted to kill those guys then they should have done it regularly, through gun fire, face to face, not blindfolded.
Western style, not nazi style.
I have enough desillusionement with this administration and what the US should be about. I really don't need this kind of brutal acts from the good side. We already had Abu Ghraib. I think it's enough.
Z - I'm sure if I were in a combat situation I would want to take things in my own hands.
Have you ever seen A Few Good Men?
The two Marines were on trial because they had obeyed a Code Red(not legal) and caused the death of a fellow Marine. They didn't understand why they were blamed because technically they were obeying orders.
A good example of this is the My Lai Massacre which took place in the Vietnam War. Surely the horrors of that war led to this - during which Vietnamese civilian men and women, and children were slain.
It's hard when this happens, but it can't be allowed for troops to take matters in their own hands.
This is tough. I think whoever ordered the insurgents to be released is as culpable, maybe moreso, than these soldiers.
Three of our soldiers were killed by the Iraqi insurgents in that firefight.
I don't think during WWII, our men had to be fired on first, to kill the enemy. How many of our soldiers have been killed or maimed because their ROE say that they have to be fired on first?
Do we send them into battle to be sitting ducks?
If I understand this episode, our men knew these were insurgents, and not civilians. Are they not the enemy? They killed three of our men.
Those insurgents should not have been released, they should have been detained as prisoners. There are two sets of rules here. One, a higher standard for our men and apparently, not any hard standard for the enemy. This is unjust.
At the least, the Master Sgt. and his men who are imprisoned should have their sentences commuted.
Yes, we feel uncomfortable while we sit here and ruminate about our principles. I sure do. We are not facing everyday with the possibility of dying, even when we may know who those killers are.
Pris
I think we talked about the general problem with fighting a war as if we were police officers rather than combat soldiers. Bush screwed the pooch when he sent idiots in to govern Iraq and they had no idea what they were doing, or why. I can’t excuse what the Master Sergeant did because his behavior was unacceptable. On the other hand, let us consider the five Seals in Afghanistan who let their captor go because they wanted to do the right thing. After they let him go, four of the five Seals were dead because the released captive went straight to the Taliban and led them to the hidden Seals.
In this case, once the insurgent was captured, there should have been NO reason to let him out of jail until after the war was over; none. The ‘catch and release’ liberalism is as much to blame for this as the errant master sergeant. Of course, it would have been better not to have idiots running Abu Ghraib Prison, but that was the standard faire among reserve and national guard units prior to 2003; training was no more than grab ass exercises.
I agree with you Z … a sad, sad story. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Hedley was wrong and he has to pay the price for that. On the other hand, high-ranking officials never held to account for the things they do, the damage they do to our society and our people are part of the problem, too. If we held these people to account for negligence resulting in the death of thousands of Americans, for their incompetence, then perhaps we would have fewer men like Paul Bremer and Timothy Geithner in our government.
Semper Fi
Mustang
You invade someone's country for no reason and are surprised they shoot back.
Maybe it's time to learn not to get involved in insurgencies.
But for a while our foremost leaders thought you can just kill your way out of an insurgency, one where you don't even have basic comprehension of who the players are.
Well, in this case it was murder and I hope he does hard time.
This brings to mind the line from Apocalypse Now: "Charging someone with murder in this place is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indianapolis 500".
Mark in MN
Very well put Z, I totally agree with you.
By the way, I love your blog, it's so very well done. Kudos to you.
The Rules of Engagement under which our military is supposed to labor are crippling to any proper fighting spirit.
I believe if we must fight a war, the only way to fight is to use the Utilitarian approach -- take no prisoners, spare no one who gets in the way, keep killing and destroying everything in sight, until the enemy is devoid of hope and so helpless he BEGS on BENDED KNEE to SURRENDER -- GROVELS SOBBING at our FEET.
As long as there is the faintest sign of mockery, disrespect or resistance among enemy personnel, we keep killing and destroying until their smirks and sarcastic jibes dissolve into tears self-pity and the abject posture of total defeat.
If we do not adopt a ruthless policy such as that, we have no business whatsoever entering a Theater of War in the first place.
Either we fight to win and be willing to do WHATEVER it takes, or we stay home, make ourselves a nice cup of tea, munch crumpets, and wait patiently till we are overrun, led away, blindfolded and shot in the head, ourselves.
"Moderation in war is imbecility."
Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice.
The UN Charter tore the testicles out of the West, which was its covert purpose all along. The UN Charter was conceived and written by MARXISTS.
NUREMBERG did the VICTORS a tremendous DISSERVICE.
You will notice that we have never decisively won any conflict since we signed the Communist-inspired UN Charter.
~ FreeThinke
Mark in Minnesota gave us the most brilliant summary possible. It applies to any combat situation zone in any era:
••• "This brings to mind the line from Apocalypse Now:
"Charging someone with murder in this place is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indianapolis 500".
~ Mark in MN
Nothing left to be said after that.
~ FreeThinke
Speaking as one who has been on the receiving end of hostile fire, I can see how this happened. People who have never been shot at can't possibly understand the stress or the reaction it can inspire. Even so, from a purely military standpoint, killing prisoners is a bad idea. First, the word gets around and next time, instead of giving up, the bad guys will slug it out. Why not, if they figure they're gone anyway. So good guys get killed who might otherwise not have been. Second, discipline is what makes a good military unit. If you let cracks develop, they'll soon become a torrent that cripples the unit and undermines leadership. My hope is that the individuals involved in this will quietly be allowed to make a life for themselves in the civilian world. They do not, in my opinion, deserve to be pilloried to satisfy the limp stay at homes sipping their lattes and whining about events they can't understand.
Some things never change, I guess.
"We had been told, on leaving our native soil, that we were to defend the sacred rights conferred on us by so many of our citizens settled overseas, so many years of our presence, so many benefits brought by us to populations in need of our assistance and civilization. We were able to verify that this was true, and because it was true, we did not hesitate to shed our quota of blood, to sacrifice our youth and our hopes. We regretted nothing, but whereas we over here are inspired by their frame of mind, I am told that in Rome factions and conspiracies are rife, that treachery flourishes, and that many people in their uncertainty and confusion lend a ready ear to the dire temptations of relinquishment and vilify our action. I cannot believe that all this true, and yet recent wars have shown how pernicious such a state of mind could be and to where it could lead. Make haste to reassure me, I beg you, and tell me that our fellow citizens understand us, support us and protect us as we protect the glory of the Empire. If it should be otherwise, if we should leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then BEWARE THE ANGER OF THE LEGIONS!!"
From a letter written by Marcus Flavinius, a centurion in the second cohort of the Augusta Legion serving overseas, to his cousin, Tertullus, in Rome.
First, having to wait until one is fired upon before taking out the enemy is a ridiculously suicidal rule.
Second, if you know that in all likelihood that those you defeat and capture in a firefight are going to be least (for whatever reason), then the answer to preventing this kind of miscarriage of justice (whichever side of this particular case you are on) would be to show no quarter. Once fired upon, our troops should see to it that there are no survivors left on the other side. By this I do not mean that our troops can take prisoners and execute them, but rather that they should respond with over whelming force, and thus not give the enemy a chance to surrender.
The simple fact is that islamo-fascism is a virus, and like any virus, all necessary steps need to be taken to see to it that it is completely exterminated.
As for Ducky, I’ve said it before and I will say it again. I am sure that he will live up to his name if and when the islamo-fascist bring the fight to out streets. He will duck and hide, whimpering in fear, while the rest of us are fighting to protect and defend our families, our friends and our freedom.
duhkky will just whip out a photocopy of Capa's Fallen Soldier
the Master Sgt. was wrong
The Rules of Engagement are wrong.
~ FreeThinke
The Rules of Engagement are wrong.
It's not up to Master Sgt. Hatley to reinvent the ROE's.
I was there FT. Much to our chagrin, the ROE's we had were more concerned with not destroying infrastucture than the enemy
So, FB....your major objection is the blindfolding and shooting from behind?
ALL: I thank you for your comments.
I guess Hermit's first comment comes closest to how I feel, especially after hearing all your other input...
I guess if we were really fighting to win, this wouldn't happen..we wouldn't be there poking around like ducks in a shooting match, US being the ducks.
As for Ducky, I’ve said it before and I will say it again. I am sure that he will live up to his name if and when the islamo-fascist bring the fight to out streets
-----------------------
Look Mr. Xenophobe, I live in a working class neighborhood where you see a lot of head scarf wearing Muslim women.
These folks just want to work, prosper, raise and educate their children like everyone else.
The goal is to maintain a neighborhood where we all get along and in that situation the biggest problem is bigots like yourself who are at the root of a lot of problems.
You and the military crowd that are so backward they think we can kill our way out of Afghanistan. Absolute cave dwellers.
Hi Z, I think we need to fight to win the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and that means killing the enemy. The political correctness and dangerous rules of engagement imposed on US fighting men and women are a crime. Our politicians have no right to put such roadblocks in their way. Let these lily-livered politicos stand a post in harm's way, hampered by all the BS they've imposed on our troops and then see how they feel.
All that should have happened to these brave men is PERHAPS a dishonorable discharge. Life in prison??? You've got to be kidding. We're at war for crying out loud.
Now Obama wants us out of Afghanistan by the end of his term. He doesn't want to pass this war on to the next administration.
WHY ISN'T THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF WORRIED ABOUT WINNING?????
The man is a total incompetent.
We need to fight these wars without all this self-imposed restraint. We need to win it first and then rebuild what's left.
Take the damn gloves off and get it over with. You will never convince me that the US military can't defeat the cowards hiding in caves if they were allowed to unleash all of power and might in our arsenals.
In the long run, it would save lives. But that coward in the White House will never do that. And President Bush didn't do it either. Why go to war and put our troops in harm's way if we're not going to fight with everything we've got?
We didn't start this war. We've been attacked for decades by Islamic terrorists. We need to defeat them! I am so ANGRY about these poor soldiers fate!!!!
War is such a serious thing that the only way it can be won is to fight with everything a nation has. This we are no longer willing or able to do.
America has become such a soft and self conflicted country that we can not win anywhere I'm afraid.
Our current leader (?) is such a pusillanimous recreant that we should probably abandon the notion of global nation bulding and concentrate on our myriad domestic problems. Unfortunately barky will probably exacerbate these too.
post american america no longer has the stomach or the will to prosecute an effective war.
Read the art of war by Sun Tsu.
Pray for America.
P.S. What passport did the annointed use to go to Pakistan in 1981. Can't have been an American one. Not allowed.
Lost in aztlan
Very good discussion going on here. I'm of two minds on this issue. I don't know all the facts, but on the surface I don't like the idea of one of our soldiers being given a life sentence for killing in a war zone, but, by the same token, I don't like the idea of our soldiers blindfolding and shooting captured prisoners.
Maybe if we had some real leadership from the WH, we would be able to keep these terrorists from being jettisoned into the
war zone after a slap on the wrist.
WHY ISN'T THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF WORRIED ABOUT WINNING?????
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Well Fairwitness maybe it's because insurgencies generally can't be defeated militarily.
Of course allowing someone to just put some folks in a ditch and shoot them sure does win the hearts and minds, right?
We can't "win" because we can't form a rational conception of what "winning" means.
z, you seem to think that because you're a well off American you should be free from the repercussions of the strife in the world.
And well over a thousand of the people who died in the Towers were foreigners. Some of the extra people.
I think it's important to point that out since the mistake is symptomatic of an extremely America centric view that is going to doom us.
I don't think we should be taking hardly ANY prisoners. You get caught shooting at us, and YOU'RE DEAD.
Only thing is, he should have shot them right then and there, not blindfolding and executing them.
We are better than this and this man should be punished with a dishonorable discharge.
But life in prison? 20 years maybe (and that's a BIG maybe) but not life.
Also, the military needs to reevaluate their catch and release program. WTH good does it do to catch the bad guys and let them go?
Ducky, you said:
"z, you seem to think that because you're a well off American you should be free from the repercussions of the strife in the world.
And well over a thousand of the people who died in the Towers were foreigners. Some of the extra people.
I think it's important to point that out since the mistake is symptomatic of an extremely America centric view that is going to doom us."
I'm no more 'well off' than most Americans, frankly, Ducky.
And, as for "extra people"? What a disgusting thing to say. Who cares if they're American or not...? They were INNOCENT PEOPLE, DUCKY, that's how I VIEWED THEM. The FACT is the muslims did this because it's on AMERICAN SOIL and AIMED AT AMERICANS.
It's an UNAmerican "centric view" that's already killing us, Ducky. Open your eyes. it's NOT putting US FIRST that's ruining us.
Duck, you are out of your mind if you think we can't win this.
War isn't about winning hearts and minds, it's about defeating your enemy. It's about bringing them to their knees where they NEVER, EVER mess with us again.
It's about killing people and breaking things, like the terrorists did on 9/11.
They weren't interested in our hearts or minds on that day, they were interested in our deaths.
Those Iraqi insurgents who were blindfolded and executed were the enemy and would have killed again. Our soldiers did their jobs. The Rules of Engagement are what's wrong with this event.
Of course, you've never been in a combat situation where your fellow soldiers were ripped to shreds and died in your arms like these guys experienced.
Why don't you point some of the compassion at them, you moron!
The terrible price too often paid for "just following orders" -- orders made through a chain of insensititive, incompetent command also bound to follow orders (in this care The Rules of Engagement) -- is commemorated in this famous poem. [Emphasis added]
The Charge of the Light Brigade
Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
'Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns' he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
'Forward, the Light Brigade!'
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldiers knew
Some one had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred.
Flash'd all their sabres bare,
Flash'd as they turned in air
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army while
All the world wonder'd:
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right thro' the line they broke;
Cossack and Russian
Reel'd from the sabre-stroke
Shatter'd and sunder'd.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six hundred.
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came thro' the jaws of Death,
Back from the mouth of Hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred.
When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wonder'd.
Honour the charge they made!
Honour the Light Brigade,
Noble six hundred!
—Alfred, Lord Tennyson
________________________
Pitiful it is when men are used as mindless pawns. Even more pitiful is the spectacle of seeing men, who've been placed in grave danger, too severely punished for rebelling against the imbecility that commands them.
I mourn for my country. It is lost. It started to die the day it ceded the tiniest part of its sovereignty to the UN. It became moribund when it first adopted the collectivist mentality.
~ FreeThinke
I think they did the right thing, why hand them over to the authorities? They would be released and be allowed to shoot or kill more American soldiers, I say, "nip in it the bud."
I am sorry that this poor American soldier is going to have to serve time, it is not fair or right.
I swear our soldiers are treated like war criminals instead of the heroes that they are.
"It's an UNAmerican "centric view" that's already killing us, Ducky. Open your eyes. it's NOT putting US FIRST that's ruining us."
Well said Z.
Unfortunately Ducky doesn't care. It didn't happen to him personally. In other words, Ducky, who said on your Sarah Palin post, when challenged about why destroy her, "because we can".
He's a cold fish, like the rest of his cohorts, and proves what we already know.
The far left are power hungry for no other reason than to be in control. Once they get it, if they do, they'll do whatever it takes to keep it, and I mean anything.
Pris
More ammo for the mudslime scum at CAIR...more ammo for the Hasan's in the military. He made a field decision...but it didn't fit in within the "huggy" bullshit that guys like Casey force on our troops. We haven't declared war formally in that theater...so these bastards were terrorists and enemy combatants...out of uniform and subject to death. WITHOUT THE SCOURGE OF THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS! He did the right thing. Prepare for it America....our Armies will soon be no more than traffic cops.
Ducky....I wouldn't even blindfold "guys" like you. I'd want you to watch.
"These folks just want to work, prosper, raise and educate their children like everyone else.
How quaint...how....liberal...how smug...how enlightened. Yep...just like Hasan or any other of these freaks wants to "get along". Have you tried to date one of them dickey? Go ahead....give one of them a neat little pinch on the ass. Just like you'd do to any other babe. And have you been to their local mosque where more than likely they talk about the commandment to kill silly infidels like you? Huh?
You brie eaters make me sick.
A change is needed in the UCMJ. A court martial for wrongs done under fire should be tried only by combat veterans, men and women who have been there and are better suited to evaluate what happened.
"These folks just want to work, prosper, raise and educate their children like everyone else."
Ducky apparently missed the statements by Muslim leaders years ago that their plan of conquering the world for Allah was for thousands of Muslims to emigrate to nonMuslim countries and build up their population there. They've been doing awfully well at that plan here and other places around the world, especially wherever the people have been brainwashed with the suicidal idea that two children is the maximum civilized number a family should allow itself, which of course the Muslims don't limit themselves to. When they reach a certain level of population they begin to show their aggressive intentions, start demanding accommodation to Islamic practices and so on. Until that point they are quiet and appear to fit in just fine.
That's the western world for you, prefers to lock up those that protect them for the sake of those that hate them.
I have to come dwon on the side of punishing the Master Sgt. It is sad his life was ruined but he did make the decision himself, he now has to face the music.
It is easy for us to sit here, safe at home, and pass judgement but we do have to maintain some semblance of humanity.
I will never be accused of coddling terrorist but we cannot allow ourselves to become them. Being tough is one thing, killing them in cold blood is another.
I think the larger issue here is why they are being turned loose. I think some discipline is order for those responsible for this.
Is killing in HOT blood any better or worse than killing in COLD blood?
EIther we should be killing everyone in sight till the enemy begs for mercy -- OR we shouldn't be in a war at all.
"Moderation in war is imbecility."
~ FreeThinke
I am very pro Military, but if active duty soldiers took "prisoners" out and executed them, without the military law backing the action, then they broke the military law.
Sorry, but it has to be that way.
Discipline must be maintained.
Do I agree with the rules of engagement, these men are being made to follow? No.
WVDOTTR
I'm so interested to read all the comments...I think most of us are in agreement and I admire your thinking, all of you.
WVDOTTR, I think you summed it up very well.
Jess, it IS a tough call, isn't it. xx
I think it is war and he who shoots first lives the longest!!!!
It may very well be a flaw in my character, but I have always had a serious problem with the notion that maintaining discipline is more important than doing everything in one's power as an individual to make sure that right be done.
Of course it could never be "right" to murder people in cold blood, but it surely must be wrong -- or at least very stupid -- to release prisoners who have sworn to do everything they can to murder you.
I've been very outspoken, and have reacted more with feeling than thought (what else is new? ;-) but I admit I see the point everyone here is trying to make, and in a sense we are ALL right, even though we don't agree.
The fundamental problem is with The Rules of Engagement. They put our men in an almost suicidal position.
Why would anyone WANT to fight for a government that requires them to put themselves in the line of fire and NOT do everything possible to PROTECT themselves?
~ FreeThinke
it's called war for a reason.
Ducky - WTF is "extra people?" Are you sick in the head???
I'll tell you what winning is, and if we weren't such decent people we'd do it - turning the whole God damned Middle East into green glass with a few nukes would set a few Jihadis straight. It worked when we did it to Japan in 1945.. it was the right thing then and it would be the right thing if we did it now.
Instead, we try to do the right thing in trying to protect ourselves and the world, we try to become friendly with the good people of the region, and when some ijiots decide to shoot at our brave troops, you want to take issue with them for killing them in the field? I suppose you'd like to see them still alive so they could be paraded across Manhattan like KSM??
Sheesh...
Hey Z... on a side note - Snarky Basterd is formerly Dr. Dave.
And when I say "we try to do the right thing in trying to protect ourselves and the world" I mean to say that we are doing the "right thing" in a politically correct, can't dare offend anyone kind of way.
You know, Ducky.. the same PC behavior that got 13 killed by a Jihadi at Ft. Hood.
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