Late Thursday night, American company Hawker Beechcraft was informed by the U.S. Air Force that they were not going to be allowed to compete for an American military aircraft contract.
The Air Force has notified Hawker Beechcraft Corp. that its Beechcraft AT-6 has been excluded from competition to build a light attack aircraft, a contract worth nearly $1 billion, the company said.The company had been working with the Air Force for two years and spent over $100 million to ensure compliance with the requirements for the plane and says the craft (Beechcraft AT-6) met all requirements as shown through a demonstration actually led by the Air National Guard.
“We have followed the Air Force’s guidance close, and based on what we have seen, we continue to believe that we submitted the most capable, affordable and sustainable light attack aircraft,” the company said.Keep in mind, this doesn’t appear to be a question of being outbid or outclassed. In fact, this seems to be a classic example of a contract being awarded without any bidding process at all, something you may remember infuriated the left when the recipient of the contract was American company Haliburton.
There’s a big difference this time. The company the no-bid contract went to isn’t an American company. Worse yet, the company it did go to has questionable friends. Namely, Iran.
Embraer, a Brazilian aerospace giant which is currently under investigation for potentially making illegal payments to obtain government contracts, is essentially owned by the Brazilian government. Through their “Golden Share,” Brazil essentially has control over the company’s business operations.
According to Embraer’s website, that Golden Share provision empowers the Brazilian government with veto rights over: “Creation and/or alteration of military programs, whether or not involving the Federative Republic of Brazil;” “Development of third parties´ skills in technology for military programs;” and “Interruption of the supply of maintenance and replacement parts for military aircraft,” among other things.But Brazil has their own explaining to do regarding their long and sordid history with the rogue country of Iran.
According to the Council on Hemispheric Affairs, “In 1989, Brazil chose to sell Tucanos, Embraer’s relatively low cost and basic military aircraft, to Iran.” Currently, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps Air Force operates around 40 Embraer T-27 Tucanos, according to the Washington Institute. In fact, the Iranians use the Tucano as their primary close air support aircraft.According to the Financial Times, building war planes is actually part of an industry that Embraer is fairly new to as they are only just “venturing into the defence industry.” Yet, the U.S. government has found them to be more capable and trustworthy than an American manufacturer that already builds hundreds of U.S. military aircrafts and would employ as many as 1,400 new workers across 20 states.
In recent years, Brazil has continued its troubling friendship with Iran and ruthless leader Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. The Hudson Institute notes that, “Another area of tension between Brazil and the United States relates to Iran. In November 2009, President da Silva invited Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to Brazil. In May 2010, da Silva helped broker a deal in which Iran would ship only a portion of its low-enriched uranium to Turkey for reprocessing; the rest would remain in Iranian hands, where it could be further enriched for nuclear weapon production.”
To make matters worse, Hawker was already experiencing trouble as a result of the tumultuous economy and had already announced potential layoffs. With news that they won’t be offered the opportunity to compete as the only American manufacturer for the light air craft contract, expect more bad news to come out of their offices.
Of course, the employees of Hawker Beechraft may not be on President Obama’s nice list these days anyway. It turns out that Hawker Beechcraft employees are represented by the International Association of Machinists (IAM). IAM president, Tom Buffenbarger, is one of the few union presidents without direct access to the White House. Here's why...he said:
“Barack so loved his own performance that he made Galesburg part of his presidential stump speech. That’s right, he’s damn proud of his performance. Well I’m not. All he proved is like Janus, the two-faced Roman god of ancient times. He could act like a friend to the workin’ man. Even as he danced to tune dictated by billionaires. Yes, we’ve seen this act before.”Curious that the Obama administration would push an American manufacturing company who’d been trusted in the past in favor of a company run by a government directly involved in the continuing move towards nuclear capabilities by the nation most hostile to American interests.
Then again, with a President that is known for awarding favors to allies and punishing enemies that don’t kiss the ring, perhaps it’s not that surprising at all. From RedState
NOW HEAR THIS from :
The Obama regime sure seems to favor Brazil for some reason. It may be the fact Obama’s boss, George Soros, has many investments there. As we know, Obama gave the Soros owned Brazilian oil giant Petrobas $10 billion a couple years back, just days after Soros bought controlling interest in the company.
Whitney Pitcher found more about the connection between Petrobas, and Obama’s repeated efforts to stifle American oil exploration. Obama has told the Brazilian leaders he wants America to be their best customer for oil.
Doing some research it seems George Soros has a connection to Embraer through Harbin-Embraer Aircraft a Chinese-Brazilian joint venture, and Hainan Airlines, which Soros owns a significant stake in.
Not sure what to make of this.
By all accounts, both Hawker-Beechcraft and Embraer have a great aircraft that would fit the requirements for the mission. The Hawker is a converted trainer, while Embraer is mission specific, and already in service in Latin America.
The purpose-built aspect vs an older, reconfigured design may have been the deciding factor, with nothing sinister going on behind the scenes.
It’s troubling, however, that Hawker-Beechcraft was given no real explanation for this decision. It’s also troubling we’d buy a military aircraft from a foreign manufacturer, under any circumstances. As bad as Americans need jobs, it doesn’t make a lot of sense. Never mind the national security factor.
This may be a legit deal, but Congress needs to look into this, especially since Embraer is already under investigation for corrupt practices, likely pay-offs and bribes. [Though I am only speculating here.]
Hopefully this will be examined further, and before any money changes hands. (Shamelessly stolen from GARY P, at A TIME FOR CHOOSING blog)
Z: Could all be innocent, right? Could be cheaper from Brazil, the Air Force likes the Brazilian stuff better...etc etc. REALLY? you REALLY THINK SO? :-) This is disgusting......... CONNECT THE DOTS.......what do you come up with?
z
57 comments:
Hi Z! The Washington Examiner link is busted.
It's hard telling with this administration just what's going on...
Obama is giving away the store, just at a much faster pace than his predecessors.
No surprise at all, and even less so that the criminally negligent MSM isn't reporting it.
Great post..Soros is no doubt one reason. And what about the quality and workmanship? Sabotage our planes, why not. Yet not a peep from anyone.
We have got to get Soros' puppet out of the White House! How on Earth did anyone vote for this turd?
I hope Republicans running for President start making an issue of all these screwy moves. Newt Gingrich or Mitt Romney need to speak at length about this!
Welcome to the global economy.
From light bulbs to helicopters, it's cheaper overseas. Funny the way right wingers can't accept market force.
And that's what military equipment is, another consumer commodity.
More here ..
IMO, a USAF decision. Meanwhile,
Kansas has other aircraft mfg
problems ..
In spite of Ducky's assertion that this is a market force decision, it is not.
This is a pure and simple example of either President BO (the child president)'s ignorance of America's economic needs or or his desire to reduce America's dominance in the world.
SF..I got into the Examiner link...give it another try ...thanks for the head's up...
It's hard telling what's up because it's hard telling this could actually happen with ANY American administration, I think...easier to wonder "What the...? Well, THAT can't be!"
Brooke, I agree about the MSM.
Have you heard the WH kept a very lavish party secret because they thought Americans wouldn't like it...Big stars, etc., and they invited soldiers' families too, and the O's friends, of course, probably to make the excess seem more palatable.
Bunkerville: ditto. what about JOBS, right?
FW...they'll NEVER discuss this. It's astonishing.
Ducky....this has nothing to do with free market; this is all to do about the insinuations in the articles, of course.
Read the post and links.
BB...Snopes almost always says UNDETERMINED when they don't like admitting info is true.
Do you know that they mentioned Obama's saying we have 57 states was true but but said it was because he was probably tired?
WHen Michele Bachmann said something nothing quite as egregious, they said TRUE :-)
I almost laugh out loud at the reasons they give for the Obama faux pas....that's just not the responsibility of a 'fact checker', to cover for the guy they like :)
but, maybe I'm tired and seeing things a little biased? :-)
Joe, it sure seems like he feels that way.
Michael Medved was saying yesterday that he didn't understand those who think this Pres would not support us in every way, be patriotic in doing all he could to keep America strong and following the founding fathers' dreams.
I'm talking in the car to the radio saying "But, tell us one place he'd have picked up those lovely inclinations....his parents? no. His wife? no. His schooling in Indonesia? no...Harvard?!! No. His best friend/mentor Frank Marshall? no..Bill Ayers or Bernadette Dorn? no. the Black Panthers? no....
need I go on? I mean, you ALMOST can't blame the guy for NOT seeming like he's on our side...
I look at his background
Off Topic, I just have to say Jon Huntsman never lets me down in his self serving rhetoric. I can't look at the poor man.
Did you hear where he's now attacking Romney for saying he likes to fire people, when the whole point was free market, that it's important to let go of people not holding up their end at a company?
There's Huntsman "Romney says it's fun to fire people.."
WOW. This is as dumb as slamming Romney for the $10K bet... when I've said A MILLION TIMES, "I"ll bet you a million dollars that..." THink I meant it? :-)
If this kind of thing is what they've got against Romney, the others are in trouble. And so might be Obama.
Do ya think somebody took a bribe?
nomadian, welcome to GeeeZ and that could be true...I think it's way bigger than that and money isn't quite as important as other motivations for O and Soros, Iran, etc.
Iran's Ahmadinejad is coming to S. America very soon, or just arrived..odd timing, isn't it.
a friend just emailed me "Where's 60 Minutes on this? WHere's FOX news?, CNN?"
where, indeed.
I generally check Snopes..they seem to do due diligence and sometimes I disagree with them as well. Now I'm worried about a problem that is close to home and
may affect my preferred quisine. :)
BB, I'm leaving but will check your link soon.
Re Snopes... what do YOU think when they give excuses for Obama and nail Bachmann, who's got kids, a husband, a business and politics and a candidacy? :-) She's real busy, too :-)
For Obama they have new qualifications like MAYBE and UNDETERMINED and Yes, BUT..
BB-Idaho..you were ON the BB-Idaho, right?
Obama has sold his soul to George Soros and has given the United States to him on a platter.
This is maddening. Obama needs to go.
I am so disgusted with how people continue to allow this man to do what he wants.
Come on Ducky. Obama threw away 750 billion on a so called stimulus, and you talk about a cheaper price for Brazilian military aircraft?
How about the recent news that the Obama administration is importing Indian youth for employment in the US when American youth have the highest unemployment percentage!
Here's another: Suspending his decision on the Canadian pipeline deal which would create many thousands of jobs, and lend itself to American energy independence.
And another, which Z mentions in her article: Obama approved a drilling permit to Brazilian Co. Petrobas to drill in the gulf, while his moratorium on American oil companies drilling in the gulf was kept in place even though a federal judge ruled against it.
Here's a newsflash Ducky, Obama is running for the Presidency of the USA, NOT king of the world!!!
But I'm sure you and your far left comrades don't care any more for America than he does.
I have no expertise as a contracting specialist, but if Embraer is getting $355 million of our money for only 20 propeller aircraft ($18 million each), then Hawker-Beech must have been asking a fortune. I suspect Bunkerville and Nomadiam are correct: the fix is in with daddy Soros and Obama is good to go after politics. Barf …
Sam
Hi, Sam (Happy New Year)
I got this email today after a friend read the post and it dovetails with what you so rightly say:
"If Embraer is hiring 1,200 Americans, then I hate to suggest that $355 million won’t last long. That amounts to only $275,000.00 per employee, so if we assume the average aviation technician is worth at least half that amount (per annum), then there isn’t much left over for buying tin, aileron cables, or paint, is there?"
Is this about the best price for our country or paying Soros back?
Pris...odd that the Obama thugs were so worried about the WATER IN THE OCEAN ("what WONDERFUL ENVIRONMENTALISTS" Ptui!!!) that America can't drill....but , apparently, the Brazilian WATERS are okay to pollute because we gave money to Soros' company to drill off Brazil! :-)
The pipeline is another way they can make real environmentalists puke while they sell a bill of goods to leftwingers so scared of ridiculous, contrived threats that we jeopardize jobs and energy independence. ugh.
Leticia, I think you are SPOT ON.
by the way, Sam...your blog is missed.
I miss Mustang's, too.
:-(
and, Sam, if you'd ever like to write and have it published here, please let me know; it would be an honor.
Mustang has done that, Pris does that from time to time........fire away!
Well Z, "BB-Idaho..you were ON the BB-Idaho, right?"
..that battleship was decommissioned in 1947!!
1. Ain't THAT old..
2. Was an Army officer..
I didn't know that.......sorry, BB!
I wouldn't think you're 'that old', just didn't know when it was decommissioned! Yikes.
Why do you call yourself that then?? A relative on it?
Z, you once said to me that you are sometimes amazed at my ability to place a veil over my eyes on issues concerning Obama (or something like that).
Well, I guess we're even:
"Snopes...Do you know that they mentioned Obama's saying we have 57 states was true but said it was because he was probably tired?"
I hate to continue my reputation as the resident liberal radical Democrat leftist communist ethno-centrist, but here goes...
First of all, I'm shocked to know that Snopes even bothered to talk about Obama's "57 states" quote. Surely there's no one out there who thinks Obama really didn't know there were 50 states in America? Surely there's no one out there who thinks it was anything more than simple huan error based on something like fatigue? Right?
In any event, this Hawker story might be interesting, mostly because of the Brazilian firm. Why them? There's obviously a reason of some sort, even though I can hardly join those who see this a a larger "George Soros" conspiracy. Since Hawker is headed to court -- and since it's an election year and we have FoxNews -- we will likely find out a lot more.
Having said that, Ducky's rather smug comment may be oversimplified, but I don't think it wasn't entirely ridiculous. Friends, and "friends of friends", typically get the huge contracts. The only real question here is "Why this particular Brazilian firm and to a lesser extent, why not Hawker?"
I don't know, but can't wait to find out.
Is this level of "outsourcing" unprecedented? It seems that it would be. But is it?
If FoxNews does not run like the wind with this story, I'll have to assume it isn't quite as cut-n-dried as Hawker states. Only time will tell.
Wow, you've really gone all 'Glenn Beck' on us with this crap, lol! Soros? Really? While the Koch Bros. are buying up our Democracy while we speak? Get real.
While Brazil get's their "Golden Share" , the American people get their "Golden Shower" from Obama.
Now for Soros. While he doesn't own any part of EMBRAER, YET, he does own 18.6% of Hainan Airlines Company Limited (HNA) which is set to buy 50% of EMBRAER
Hainan Airlines announced an order to purchase 50 Embraer ERJ-145s and 50 Embraer 190s with a total value of (at list price) US$ 2.7 billion. Deliveries commenced in September 2007 for the ERJ-145s. The 50-seat ERJ-145s were produced by the joint venture Harbin Embraer Aircraft Industry (HEAI), in the city of Harbin. For the Embraer E-190, deliveries started in December 2007. The 106-seater aircraft is configured for single class service and is manufactured at the plant of São José dos Campos, Brazil. Due to the financial crisis and huge loss in the year 2008, the number of orders for the 50 seater ERJ 145 was reduced to 25 from the original of 50; the Embraer 190 order of 50 was not reduced. And guess who is buying the small single seater for it's military?
Now for the investment companies owned by Hainan: H&Q Asia Pacific and HNA Group and guess who is a share holder--George Soros and when did he invest? Very shortly after the Airline company Hainan bought these two investment firms. There are other ties that bind, all you have to do it look.
net, the whole point is that Snopes would even suggest he was tired when they don't give the same break to, for example, Bachmann.
You know, there's a fine line between what some think are rightwingers worried for nothing and making stinks where unnecessary and the leftwingers insulting them for it so it all looks ridiculous....when it just might not be.
I can't stay that naive. I want to keep my eyes open, though I think we're pretty lost already.
I think FOX doesn't run with a lot of important things.....I think journalism of the media is a thing of the past and we have to rely on ourselves.
Gee, I wonder why Ducky and others didn't give the Haliburton situation this same pass :-)
Don't you see? this is about hypocrisy. Snopes is owned by a very leftwing couple in the San Fernando Valley, 30 min from my house; it's easy to see their information.
Ticker...I don't think our information really matters anymore; I think we need to shut up and just take it. THis is all okay for the left.
wait till you see midnight's post.
"Liberalmann"?
An oxymoron...and the same twerp troll without the fist.
It's not called 'Jumping to conclusions' either. It's called 'Pattern recognition' after 3 years.
"You know, there's a fine line between what some think are rightwingers worried for nothing and making stinks where unnecessary and the leftwingers insulting them for it so it all looks ridiculous....when it just might not be."
Sounds eerily reminiscent of my days on the black left. When you scream "racism" ad infinitum, even when it ain't there, eventually, people will assume that ALL your claims of racism are baseless =)
"Don't you see? this is about hypocrisy. Snopes is owned by a very leftwing couple in the San Fernando Valley, 30 min from my house; it's easy to see their information."
Oh, I don't have a problem exposing who people really are, where they're coming from, etc. I do it a lot, actually. You may have noticed.
As long as it's fair, I'm okay with it, Z. I would rather be informed; that's for sure.
Having said that, I think it's quite a leap to presume that Obama is as anti-American as some would have us believe.
Leticia said Obama has sold his soul to George Soros and has given the United States to him on a platter.
Best President money can buy. I think it's pay-off to Soros
The thing that makes this worse is the fact that so many Americans are out of work.
I agree with Kid there is a pattern here and not to harp on the 57 state comment and I know about Snopes left wing owners Z too. I guess Obama learned about the 57 states in school in Indonesia
I really think Obama wants to bring America off it's "High Horse" (that's what I believe he thinks)but in doing so he is destroying many lives. I notice people are not so happy any more when out in public.
Maybe it's me but as I look at people many of them look like they are just "Existing"
I think we will notice it alot more if Obama gets 4 more years. To have a president who has party after party in the White House,teams up with the Mexican President to sue Arizona and the gives him a platform to speak on the senate floor,shuts down drilling here,won't let us build a pipeline,forces Obamacare down our throats and adding so much regulation and growing the government at record rates. Either he is really smart, which is to our detriment, or really stupid,which is also to our detriment. I don't think there is any in between.
Lisa, I usually don’t do this because I’m going to miss hundreds of things, and there’s little I can do about his actions and the repubs are permanently out to lunch on it, but just off the top of my head:
Iraq - obama has had virtually no effect on Iraq (deal made in Oct 08)
Afghanistan, pulling out – which I support at this point. The ‘Horse’ doesn’t want the water.
Gitmo – no change
All of the other things the left complained about bush are still going on and no one minds. Ah yea.
Libya, we had no business there.
Patriot act – no change plus obama said Anyone’s cell phone conversation was up for grabs, not just the ones to the ME like GW Bush had it.
Gulf oil spill-obama forced oil skimmers to stay away from the gulf, making the oil spill much more of a problem. At one point, says he wants to find someone’s ass to kick. Didn’t the media and the left have a big problem with Bush the cowboy. I am sure Bush never would have said that.
Puts sotomeyer on the Supreme court – 65% of her cases that went to the supreme court were overturned.
Puts kagan on the supreme court, kagan has never been a judge or ever written an opinion
Shunned, embarrassed and puned all of our traditional allies. When gordon brown was here, he tossed the churchill bust at him and told him to take it back to England. After the browns brought thoughtful, and expensive gifts for the obama’s and the girls, the obamas gave the Browns kids a couple plastic models of Marine One from the WH gift shop that cost $4.11 ea at the time. After insulting all of our traditional allies, he went on a world apology tour bowing down for ever other head of state, including the mayor of Tampa Florida (Pretty sure it was Tampa. She had quite the amused look on her face.
he does hate America. I believe that. he wants to cut America down to size.
he’s been given everything in life and he thinks that’s how things should work.
The sledgehammer – obamacare. no one read the 200 pg bill, Not One repub voted for it. 70% + of the population was against it and remain against it. they rammed it up our butt anyway. In the end it has made HC much more expensive and the people who they said it should cover won’t be covered. That’s BS. That is as far away from “for the people, by the people” as you can get.
he’s giving the Russians vital statistical performance information about the latest and the exact missile defense missiles SM-3. Why would we think the Ruskies wouldn’t pass that info along to China, Iran etc, friends of Russia?
There’s a ton more. I’ve seen something everyday for the last 3 years that would make this list.
he hasn’t done or said One Thing on a substantive issue that I find acceptable with the exception of the Afghanistan pull out. But I’d say that should happen now. You don’t give your enemy notice of your exact plans about anything.
Hey Kid,
I don't mean to turn this conversation into something esoteric, but do me favor: What do you mean "Obama hates America"? And feel free to define "America" as well.
Do you mean Obama hates America's military strength? Or American capitalism? Or America's White/European roots? Or what exactly?
For the record, I put the above "suggestions" only to move the conversation forward. (it ain't multiple choice =)) I really wanna know precisely what that phrase means to you.
Clearly, Obama doesn't hate that part of America that evolved from a racist society to a place that elected a man like him president. And I don't think he hates most American citizens either. So what does it mean to "hate America"?
And frankly, it kinda begs the question, if Obama "hates America", what does he love? China? Iran? Some place that doesn't exist?
Net, I'm not sure how to define why or how he hates America other than recognize what he doesn't embrace. Those things are all the things (albeit some of them distasteful at times) that made this country what it is. Capitalism, reward, riches, hard work and achievement. The things that pushed out a stagnant society (The American Indian -one of the distasteful bits), and made way for excellence in achievement that put railroads from the East to the West coast, and eventually men on the moon, and ;-) Nuclear powered submarines - bristling with nuclear weapons, that was the trump card along with SDI that caused Russia to cry uncle.
He sees America as arrogant - his words. And imperialist, though we have never taken land other than America itself.
He hasn't done a single thing to help American Capitalist business. Hundreds of CEO's are on record recently as saying that the over regulation, the uncertainty of government actions and By Far, obamacare are the biggest impediments to hiring in the US.
The co-founder of Home Depot, who employs thousands said it would be impossible to create a similar company in today's environment of mainly obamacare and the regulations. Companies outsource out of country more because of obama's actions with regard to regulation. Trillions in cash sit in overseas accounts because obama will not east the tax burden to bring it back to America. There's conviction, and there is Naive insanity.
All the stimulus money and all the money appropriated such as in his jobs bill has all been given to the unions. Ok, some of that money kept people working in public unions positions, but what about the rest of us in non-union jobs ? I haven't gotten a raise in years, while public unions have 'collectively bargained' for raies each year and increases in benefits far and above my own. DO I get a state job? Do we all get state jobs? Who is left to pay the payroll, pension, and benefits? ;-)
obama ran a Billion $ campaign. That money did not come from individuals, it came from unions and some overseas interests as far as I can determine to any extent. Why did they give him a billion $?
Follow the money is what I have to conclude.
But, someone tell me of something that obama and the dems have done the last 3 years that would have any affect on small business hiring. Small business hiring makes up 70 - 90% of jobs in the US. Large companies shed jobs. IBM has fewer people today than it had 10 years ago.
No acrimony, simple conclusions, and I haven't seen any information to the contrary presented by anyone.
Net, Jeff Immelt and obama are great friends.
Jeff is CEO of GE.
Ge paid nothing in taxes for last year (2010). GE actually got tax credits.
Jeff and Barak are great friends.
Forget the words, look at the picture. When was the last time you saw obama do this with an American business leader?
If the link doesn't work, here is the raw than you can cut and paste into a address bar.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124061309079054521.html
Yea, this site puts http://www.blogger.com in front of all the links I try to post here for some reason. Unfortunate. Don't know why.
Barack Obama detests traditional American values, culture, and its history. In Mr. Obama, we find a man who stated that he believes our founding document is wrong-headed. This is hardly a patriotic notion given these two things: how well it has worked for the American people for two centuries, and the number of men and women who have given up their lives to preserve it —including some 650,000 Americans who died during the Civil War.
Barack Obama repudiates free market capitalism and suffers under the sad misconception that the federal government is entitled to “the people’s money.” He shamelessly rejects the notion of American exceptionalism; he apologized for our “arrogance.” He is a man who behaves as if he is above the law, while using his justice department as a hammer against mainstream society —favoring debauched organizations (ACORN, NBPP, and corrupt labor unions) because they are useful to the progressive agenda. He is a man who prefers the company of such slugs as Van Jones, Anita Dunn, Donald Berwick, David Axelrod, George Soros, Valarie Jarrett, Cass Sunstein and his radical wench, Samantha Power.
Is it fair to judge a man (or woman) by the company they keep? I think yes. And I think Barack Obama is a man full of loathing for Western Society, particularly in light of his father’s experience in the former British Colony of Kenya.
Still, while we can lay the blame for what Obama is at the feet of his parents, grandparents, and mentors —people who loathed America, we can say honestly, there is nothing American about Barack Obama.
The American people knew all this before the 2008 election —or should have known. Mr. Obama never lied to the American voter about who he is or what he believes. He told us that he intended to “redistribute” income; he told us he intended to bankrupt the coal industry and add to the thousands of unemployed. He told us that he despises our Constitution and its place in our history. Given all that, the American people still voted for him.
I believe Kid is correct in his assessments, but I would add this: if Obama “hates” America, then so does every small-minded progressive who voted for an avowed communist in the first place.
I am not surprised-
but-
I am always sad when our US companies are betrayed by our govt...
Carol-CS
Mustang, Very well stated and thank you.
I'd like to add that the government could TAKE every cent from the One Percent and it would last what? Coupla years at the current rate of cash burn? At best by far.
Then what?
Put an ad in the New York Times that reads "Thousands of Steve Jobs Clones needed to create fantastically successful and profitable businesses so we can suck them dry and stay alive as a socialist paradise" ??
Or what.
Mustang... And a real focal point that I've yet to make in this thread.
obama is not the problem. There are plenty of obama's running around. The problem are the people/voters who see nothing dangerous with putting a person in power that has never worked an honest day in their life, and has no verifiable substantive experience or intelligence at anything.
Remember that no one has come forward to proclaim that obama was a professor in their law class at Hahvahd or that even saw him on campus doing anything significant. And he won't release his grades so he's no where near a 3.8, let alone 4.0. it's fake. It's all hype.
And when there is no reality, no accomplishment to capitalize on then the output has to be all hype. And it has been all hype.
I challenge anyonet o tell my something about obamas accomplishments or rewards(Nobel peace prize for example) that is backed by actual accomplishment and what that accomplishment was.
Bring it on.
Well, as Dennis Prager would say, clarity is more important than agreement in these discussions. In that sense, this is very helpful, guys.
kid, mustang (can i call u 'stang? kidding)
Let's pretend that you ARE that Native American descendant who resents that regrettable genocidal history despite the ultimate human progress. Just get over it? Look at the bigger picture?
Is it okay to hate America a little bit? Was it ever okay?
Are there no other legit views besides a preference for US dominance in the world? What about "the human family" and empathy for others? I'm not an expert, but isn't that more the "Christian" way? Why is that not a higher calling?
I swear these are not trick questions. I'm genuinely curious how you and others see it.
Net, Well, there is the Mother lode.
1.) I'm not going to try to defend the settlers taking this country from the American Indians.
I will say, it was going to happen (agree?) so who do you want doing it? Pilgrims? Russians? Vikings? Spanish Inquisition?
Net, I honestly believe of all the choice of races who could come here, we were the most humane of the bunch even though disgusting unspeakable things happened to tribes and individuals.
It's always Ok to hate America ! This IS America. Just please present a rational case and then explain who might have a better paradigm for America beside a group of people who created a country founded in opposition to oppression and in love with Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness !
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. . . whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive to these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government."
How can you possibly Top That !?
US Dominance in the world? Hmmm. Point me to a country or an economic system or a way of life which would be better to dominate the world. And explain why. I await your answer.
Christian Way? Ok, A Kid revelation ensues....
I'm not a fan of organized religion. I have a strong concept of a God. Too complicated to explain here. What I feel most confident about is that there Always Has Been and Always Will Be a constant struggle between good and evil on this rock. And people ought to pick a side and get passionate about it.
I just posted a fairly rude but totally justified statement on my blog about a US Circuit court of appeals court that just sanctioned sharia law in Oklahoma, even though sharia law violates so many human rights laws in the USA, it would make your 'head spin fast enough to create a sonic boom'.
Net, Seriously.
As Ronald Reagan put it. We are the shining city on the hill. We ARE mankind's last best hope for freedom and individual liberty.
How is that incorrect in any abstract anyone can some up with?
Point me to a country with a better system to run the world with and explain why.
I'm open even though I know no one could possible do so.
as expected. magnificent
answers, kid.
my inquiries aren't so much
based in disagreement. it's more like "different camera angles". when i hear people say obama "hates america", my first instincts are, "dude, you must not know what real hatred for america looks like! lol"
i don't dare say that b/c we all saw 9-11. still, i remember as a young man, all-black urban areas, arts n entertainment background, etc. anti-american sentiments were SO normal. even in the olympics, we'd occasioanlly rooted against america lol
and we all know why. we were the descendants of people who were, among a host of other things, the only people who didn't choose to come here. i used to think, "of course, we 'hate america'! duh."
the country had obviously evolved a whole lot by the 80s. but still, it was quite clear to me that many years would have to pass before this sentiment changed.
i think 9-11 was a turning point. not completely sure why, but it was.
but i agree with you, kid. big-time. we are all fortunate that the founders of our country were clearly very deep thinkers. doesn't typically work out that way =)
talk about the luck of the dice. there may be a country out that would better suit. but i'm not aware of it.
anyway, a long off-topic discussion, so i'll cut it short. my only point, i guess, is maybe "america" is a little more complex than we think and maybe that's worth recognizing. case in point, i'm not so sure MLK was a huge fan of free markets, and he hated the vietnam war, too, but he was very american.
Bottom line: Americans need jobs. Obama and his minions are doing everything they can to obstruct any economic recovery in our nation.
Americans are not going to wake up in time. They're too "busy," and the mainstream media are providing too many distractions.
Net,
"my inquiries aren't so much
based in disagreement. it's more like "different camera angles". when i hear people say obama "hates america", my first instincts are, "dude, you must not know what real hatred for america looks like! lol"
Thank you again very much and 2, I hear you and understand. At some point we have to be able to let it go though. Not sure when that is but it's not going to be anytime soon as people just get more polarized by the day. And don't even know who the enemy is. In my opinion it is government and all of its tentacles of propaganda.
I'll reply to your other question later tonight.
net, I don't think I know any Black Americans who felt like you describe your upbringing and the folks around you but they might have... Your comment here is interesting; "i think 9-11 was a turning point. not completely sure why, but it was."
Maybe Black America finally realized we're all Americans and they felt united.
Do Black Americans, who you say resent having been brought here, even actually thinking "we didn't choose to be here"!!, ever feel anger or resentment to the Africans who arranged their capture and sailing to the States?
Chuck, you know it has to be.
Kid said: "...he does hate America. I believe that. he wants to cut America down to size."
Man, you are a loon. As far as I can see, he is restoring American from the travesty we called the Bush administration.
liberalmann, do you have any good marinated chicken recipes? I'm looking to try something new this weekend. tia.
Z,
Now I see that I DID post my answer to part of your question on the wrong section of your blog =) You'll see.
Anyway, a quick answer to the rest of your questions:
"Maybe Black America finally realized we're all Americans and they felt united."
I think that's BASICALLY what happened, Z. Like I said, I can't honestly pinpoint the reasoning. For me, it became more of an extremely unwanted test of our ultimate loyalty; and that convinced me we were loyal.
Before 9-11, I wasn't 100% sure (more like 85%). Maybe it's just me.
Before 9-11, criticizing "America" and "The West" was SO routine in Black America. No one was ever criticized for being that way. And frankly, bold expressions of patriotism weren't exactly encouraged. That's how I remember it, anyway.
"Do Black Americans, who you say resent having been brought here, even actually thinking "we didn't choose to be here"!!, ever feel anger or resentment to the Africans who arranged their capture and sailing to the States?"
Oh, no. The resentment I think had much less to do with the transaction itself (i.e., the buying/selling of human beings), and FAR MORE to do with what happened once "we" got here. (i.e., 10-plus consecutive generations of bondage, the dehumanization, the brainwashing, the lasting effects of the brainwashing, followed by "Jim Crow", etc.)
I used to wonder why Jamaicans had accents and we didn't. Then I found out that American black slaves were mostly "bred" instead of imported. So over time, many of these people, as well as their children, grandchildren, parents, grandparents, etc., knew nothing except life as chattel.
I always saw that as a lot more devastating than the phenomenon of human bondage itself. Even today, in 2012, miscegenation with blacks seems to create more angst than with other groups. I'm convinced that a lot of the reasons can be traced to the days of slavery. Just my opinion.
Maybe obama is going to get some money out of it. Probably not linked to him directly, but he'll need all the money he can get his grubby hands on to win the coming election.
I am not sure where you're getting your information, but great topic. I needs to spend some time learning more or understanding more. Thanks for excellent information I was looking for this info for my mission.
Feel free to visit my page ; topografÃa
This is the perfect web site for anyone who really wants to understand this topic.
You understand so much its almost hard to
argue with you (not that I personally would want to…HaHa).
You definitely put a brand new spin on a subject which has been discussed for a long time.
Great stuff, just excellent!
my website :: seo services usa
Post a Comment