Wednesday, May 14, 2014

Societal Underclass

What is your definition of an UNDERCLASS in a society/a country? (and I don't mean a Bachelor's versus a Doctorate :-))

Can we ever overcome an UNDERCLASS or will there always be one?

What would have to happen to rid a country, no matter how large or small, of it's UNDERCLASS?

I'm curious about your responses.

Thanks!

Z

73 comments:

Ed Bonderenka said...

Given the number of people with NO class....

Ed Bonderenka said...

Someone famous once said, "The poor you will have with you always..."
I believe Him.

Harry said...

To say that the Obama administration is "working for the most part within the constraints of the Constitution" is to admit that it is working to some extent outside of the Constitution, which is unlawful if anything is. I have suggested "mass civil disobedience" myself, in the face of Obamacare (whose Constitutional illegality you have pointed out above) and it is not intrinsically unlawful, most particularly if the protesters themselves act within the constraints of the Constitution (as cliff's comment above also logically implies, properly emphasizing peaceful assembly)--and practically speaking, if they can articulate the grievances of the people in a clear and persuasive, reasonable manner. That being said, I know nothing about this May 16th gathering, and whether "anarchists" is a proper description for it, or any part of it; one might just as easily apply the term to the Obama administration--given that it obeys the law only "for the most part". The bottom line is, we all have to be responsible for our actions. (One of the grievances I would voice against Obama is that he does not take responsibility for his actions, such as his blaming the Benghazi attack on an anti-Muslim video--which any competent citizen knew was false within a day of the attack--and has foisted the blame for his action off upon ludicrous, supposed "talking points" provided to him; or for his claim in the 2008 campaign that he did not know of the radicalism of his pastor of 20 years.) I am not so quick to blame people for standing up to what I myself consider tyranny--and, I think, treason, in lying to the American people (especially in the Benghazi affair) about a known enemy (Islamic terrorists) at war with America and the West. I hope this demonstration works out peacefully, and well, for its participants and for America

Mustang said...

As long as people remain free to make their own way in life, there will be those who are successful, and those who are not. It reminds me of something my grandfather used to say, “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.”

We should encourage those who strive for success—and discourage those who seem to strive for failure, but if we value freedom, we have to realize that losers will always be with us. Democrats seem to guarantee this by paying these losers a lot of our money and calling is "welfare."

Lisa said...

The result of liberal run cities.

dizzywizzy said...

Blacks selling Blacks into slavery.... I wonder whereI heard that before!!
First of all, they aren't 'Our girls' and how about we figure our where thousands of missing girls go every year in the U.S first. According to the FBI, hundreds of thousands of missing person reports are filed in the U.S every year, and many are never found. This from ABC, "Every year, thousands of people go missing in the United States. Many are never heard from again. Below are a few of the people police are looking for. Find out how you can help bring them home." But see, if we worry about our own lane, then that doesn't help the 'Globalist.'

sue hanes said...

Z - I believe there will always be an underclass in a society.

A Conservative Vermont Vet said...

Michelle, why are you not holding up a sign for that poor white ex GI in the Mexican Jail?

Sam Huntington said...

#BringBackOurFreeMarketCapitalism

Anonymous said...

From Z if GeeeZ


I'm hoping we can all get back to my post on UNDERCLASSES? THANKS. I am eager to hear your thoughts.

see you later, folks...z

American Jihad said...

Titan you're famous! said...

Time for the Republicans to get over Benghazi and segue into their next smear campaign.

would you get "OVER Benghazi if it were YOUR Son who was slaughtered? WOULD NANCY-DIRT PELOSI BAG “GET OVER IT” IF HER SON WAS SLAUGHTER?

American Jihad said...

Dave Miller said...

What answers do you REPUBLICAN’S want for Benghazi, please tell us.

Are you that Dumb Dave, or are you pretending to be that Dumb? WE WANT THE TRUTH, thats what we want! We want those responsible like Hillary and Obama to Man up to the truth, and pay for their LIES! That’s what we want. .

Thersites said...

Society represents an empty ideological "frame" for a collection of humans, be it capitalist, communist, socialist, etc., or nationalist, tribal, etc. And within those frames, there will always be some "disaffected" people who would like "the collective" to be differently organized and run, usually in a manner better suited to their particular strengths (or more likely, "weaknesses") and who will offer their "critique".

Opinionated Me said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Bob said...

How would you rid a country of an underclass?

It depends on what you mean by underclass. I take it to mean those who are unacceptable to the ruling class.

Well, Hitler had his methods that resulted in the Holocaust.

Stalin had his methods that resulted in millions of people dying in the Gulag Archipelago, firing squads, and just being murdered.

Mao Tse Tung managed to kill between 40 million and 60 million underclassmen with his own methods.

Barack Obama and the liberals have their methods, too. They are Marxist in origin, and Soviet like in their execution. Right now, they heckle, isolate, and lie about their opponents. This is clearly a prelude to censorship and imprisonment. We shall see how this plays out. Tack on the Death Panel enshrined in Obamacare, and you can understand where these guys are going.

Duckys here said...

@ED --- Someone famous once said, "The poor you will have with you always..."
I believe Him.
--------
The poor will be with us because we haven't the will for it to be otherwise.

It's tragic that you limit your understanding and neuter your faith.

Duckys here said...

@Sammy --- #BringBackOurFreeMarketCapitalism

------
1. It's coming back if you haven't noticed.

2. We got a real good dose during the age of the robber barons and just before the depression. Any reason you think a replay is worthwhile?

If you believe kapitalism is a necessary state try reading Polanyi. Anything to open your eyes.

Duckys here said...

Channeling Herbert Spencer again, mustang.

We are all independent actors.
Or as your heroine Thatcher said, "There is no such thing as society."

Just like Spencer, a shallow philosophy that has to conveniently deny man's group origins.

Baysider said...

I see Bob's definition as 'out' classes - people the ruling oligarchy wants to eliminate (big landowners, little landowners and medium-sized landowners, people with brains and different ideas, among others). This condition is created by envy and hatred of those outside the class.

Underclass is usually those who are on the bottom economic rung. There IS a hardcore permanent group. But honestly, the data show that there is amazing fluidity from under to upper class. I wish I had the numbers at hand - a majority of the bottom 20% will be in the upper 20% in their lifetime. And the reverse has been true as well. Certainly true in my life.

While I do not dismiss bad 'luck' - especially of accident or illness - that 5% hardcore underclass stays down because they lack character traits that propel mobility and are associated with the successful - traits like industriousness and impulse control. In a highly mobile society as ours, this group has traditionally been about 5% of the bottom tier (not the whole population). When we excuse counter-productive traits rather than insist on standards, when we celebrate self-induced incapacitation rather than attach shame to it, that group will grow. I believe it is.

Duckys here said...

Yeah Bob, and we had to clear out the plains Indians so that Cliven Bundy could skip out on his fees.

Thersites said...

No, ducky, so that an idiot like Barrack could CHARGE them in the first place.

Thersites said...

I think that ducky is still waiting for his call.

Speedy G said...

...from Polanyi.

Speedy G said...

...cuz "Der Lider" want's to redistribute Clive Bundy's cows to some hefers in Watts.

Thersites said...

I think that the duck should stop reading Karl Poanyi, and read Michael Polanyi, instead!

Bob said...

@Baysider "While I do not dismiss bad 'luck' - especially of accident or illness - that 5% hardcore underclass stays down because they lack character traits that propel mobility and are associated with the successful - traits"

Well said, Baysider. I would go further and say that there are millions who simply cannot do the basic things required in a work force, except be laborers. Now that we import cheap, illegal labor from Mexico and Central America, these poor folks have no where to go. The illegals will work for less, exacerbating the problems.

As a teenager, I worked as a laborer on construction jobs for my father. As an adult, I worked in factories where some there could barely show up on time. As a retired adult, I worked for a while at a couple of car dealerships where the poorest of the poor wash and detail cars, and sweep the floors. Sometimes these people are black, sometimes Hispanic, and sometimes white. Many of these people suffered from the same problem. They either didn't know how to get out of their predicament, or they were too lazy to do it. Sometimes, I am sure drugs were to blame.

There is poverty aplenty, now, and Ducky is misleading himself if he thinks we can eliminate poverty. We have spent literally Trillions of dollars in welfare programs, and we have more people living under our rather generous poverty standards than ever before, and part of the problem is the current administration's anti-job stance.

Bob said...

@Ducky "eah Bob, and we had to clear out the plains Indians so that Cliven Bundy could skip out on his fees"

Sure. How many people did the plains Indians clear out and kill before they possessed the land? We could go on and on about the lack of original Americans. There were none. They all came from Asia, and drove out their predecessors.

We just happened to be next up in the batters' box.

Sam Huntington said...

Bob wrote, “Now that we import cheap, illegal labor from Mexico and Central America, these poor folks have no where to go.

This proves a couple of important things. First, we should all pay closer attention to the things Bob tells us —he is a near-genius and if not that, then sage. Second, Bob’s truth proves beyond a doubt that leftism is a treasonous act and one that should carry with it the death penalty. There is no other way to divest society of cockroaches other than RAID. Third, almost all of the problems confronting us today are caused by progressive ideas, which I like to think of as a severe, incurable form of mental disease. Much like rabies, progressivism is a dangerous virus and in the final analysis, there is only one acceptable medical protocol: euthanasia.

Z said...

Ducky, you brought this subject up the other day; Instead of attacking commenters, how about some realistic answers to my post, which is :

"What is your definition of an UNDERCLASS in a society/a country? (and I don't mean a Bachelor's versus a Doctorate :-))

Can we ever overcome an UNDERCLASS or will there always be one?

What would have to happen to rid a country, no matter how large or small, of it's UNDERCLASS?"

I think the world would like your answer to how we rid ourselves of an underclass.

And, I'm wondering if you actually believe that Conservatives LIKE an underclass in our country? You sound dangerously close to suggesting that almost every day.


Z said...

Bob, I'm hoping to get an answer from Ducky on how to eliminate the poor who will definitely, sadly, always be amongst us.

And BOB...Sam is SO RIGHT: You are an amazingly clear and focused thinker and sage and yes, 'near genius'. Truly.

yes, I HAVE MANY (happily) very VERY bright commenters but you have a clarity and so much information that I know we ALL love reading your comments. ANd, I hope, your BLOG!

Sam, I DO believe ALL OUR PROBLEMS (and the longer I think about it over the years, the more I know we're right on this) are from leftwing ideology.
Sam, you should SEE the AP American History textbook that ALL Advanced Placement kids across our country have to read and spout. The revisionist, nasty "You TOO can hate America" information is amazing. How they can possibly come out of high school or college appreciating ANYTHING in America is way beyond ME.

BOB AND SAM: ONe of the points in the history book was about the disappearance of the Roanoke Colony which, apparently according to the text, "was swallowed up by the wilderness"..the truth is most hypotheses say they were either overcome by Indians or just joined them instead of fighting them for their lives. Yup....
But this textbook can't even suggest that Indians might have done wrong.
One chapter is "The European America" :-)
Francis Drake "Swashbuckled and looted himself around the PLANET!" very professionally stated, huh?
OH, the information on George Washington..HE HAD SLAVE! (GASP!)(
Nothing is said about the man's will which said all should be taught to read and then FREED after his death, right?

UGH>

I'm still hoping we hear from Ducky how to solve the underclass situation; He's big on condemning US for it, but I'm hearing nothing to help, are you?

Baysider said...

@Bob: We have spent literally Trillions of dollars in welfare programs.

Yup. We've spent a lot to reward dysfunctional behaviors. Some truly need that help. I have specific people in mind and a generous heart to help people like them. But, we are also making tons of voters dependent on voting benefits from the public trough. Oh, jeesh! What mess.

Mustang said...

@ Ducky

I never channeled social Darwinism, nut bag ... but nothing I commented on can be disputed. And as other have said here, you and people like you are responsible for our plight. The problem seems to be that you’re just too stupid to realize it.

Baysider said...

Z et al (for anyone who doesn't know), Washington didn't just free his slaves, as in turning them loose to fend for themselves in a cruel world. He made thoughtful and responsible provision. He provided prime farmland in Ohio valley (remember, he was a surveyor with an eye for good land) for about 80 families who had the youth and skills to farm. He pensioned off many that were too old to work any longer. The Washington estate paid out pensions to retired/freed slaves until the 1830's. What a mensch!

Z said...

"We've spent a lot to reward dysfunctional behaviors."

Baysider; that is so so so true. So sad, and so true.
And it's become a dependency as bad as a drug or alcohol dependency, hasn't it.
Today, if someone has lived an outrageous life of debauchery and worse, but goes through Betty Ford, he's revered as a saint.

You're COOL, according to the Left.

When men with families were suddenly paid to disappear "no family gets anything if the family makes over so much.. or if dad's there"...America started to fall apart. I believe that contributed a lot to our downfall.

SO MANY more are on welfare today than five years ago and the Left seems to look at that as a GOOD thing. Sadly, since there are so few jobs and SO MUCH MONEY (SOOOO MUCH!) WASTED, how can we even prevent welfare from growing?

Just yesterday, my post was about our paying $1300 for a desk chair. We were all appalled..Dave and Ducky wonder why, even after I mentioned that this was MY BUSINESS and I KNOW that if all the IRS offices banded together and put in ONE PURCHASE ORDER for 30,000 chairs, the price would come down GREATLY!
Or if we used a fine furniture maker OTHER than 2 of the MOST expensive... But, gee.."Herman Miller's nice," says Ducky. As if he has a clue.

geeeeeZ

Baysider said...

As for the plains Indians, remember that the Iroquois pushed many eastern tribes into the plains, displacing them in the east. They prefer to call themselves 'The People of the Longhouse' but their enemies called them 'Iroquois' or black snakes because of their character. Amazing how bad behavior cuts across racial and cultural lines. Whites were able to build federations with threatened tribes who saw them as an ally against the hated Iroquois.

Z said...

Baysider; I so wish I could get my hands on one of those AP Am. History books....but then I'd have to stand back so I wouldn't be in your way as you EXPLODED. I swear.
In 8 minutes of just browsing through, I wrote ten quotes that made ME erupt...in only 8 minutes.

And this is a NATIONAL TEXTBOOK. And, it apparently pretty much echoes most textbooks.

The white man did NOTHING good, don't you know? And all minorities are utter saints, or only pushed to being UNsaintly by THE WHITE MAN?

christian soldier said...

Thanks to our Founders who sent these words w/ the Declaration-
We will have no king but King Jesus-

We in the US are a class-less Nation-
since the class system is based on the "top" (blood "royals") to bottom (serfs) old debauched system--
We have those who work and those who do not work --
C-CS

Impertinent said...

"The poor will be with us because we haven't the will for it to be otherwise."


They must be willing & able to. We've demonstrated our "will" by allowing trillions of dollars to be siphoned out of our own wallets only to have created this permanent underclass.

Funny...yet the "poorest" among us seem to have entitlements and possessions of a modern age that others in the world can only dream about.

Clean air, water, plentiful food, access to energy, child care, medical care, education, subsidized or free housing and of course free smart phones and Internet access that we're taxed for.

Lastly we're all not created equal in our common abilities...either physically, mentally or motivationally. Some of us will always be handicapped. Those that are need the help....the rest are pawns, lazy or reckless and just expect they'll be taken care of. Usually voting demorantic...they know where and with whom their snacks lie.

I think 80% of the planet wishes they were "poor" by our standards.

Bob said...

Sam said, "the things Bob tells us —he is a near-genius and if not that, then sage"

Thanks, Sam. I thought the pesticide was pretty sharp, too.

Ordinarily, some of my smart comments come when I am into my whiskey cups, but since my wife put me on a diet, there is no alcohol involved. To think my genius can show without an alcohol buzz seems to be presumptuous. Thanks!

Z. Thanks!

Duckys here said...

Well, z, on the subject of attacking, you just have to read Huntington's post.
He's certainly created an atmosphere over time.

"Second, Bob’s truth proves beyond a doubt that leftism is a treasonous act and one that should carry with it the death penalty."
Truly enlightened.

Another matter that's apparent is that most (if not all) here are going to wave their hands, say the poor deserve everything that happens to them and fall back on a very facile social Darwinist position.

To discuss the underclass you really have to be open to talking about the conditions of social mobility and wealth distribution in America and be willing to go beyond bromides like "You can't eliminate poverty" (of course you can't).
As America continues on the path of the last several decades we are making social mobility much more restricted and creating a permanent underclass that requires an expensive security state to control. It's a mugs game.

Sam Huntington said...

As I said ... Ducky's only hope is euthanasia.

Or maybe he will gag himself on all his wealth redistribution BS.

Impertinent said...

@Ducky:


Seriously...beyond your expected and mandated tax burden each year...how much of your wealth are you willing to give above and beyond that obligation?

And the rich? How much of their income should be redistributed as unforced contributions to the "poor"? 50%...90% or 99%? How much would satisfy the Marxists anyway?

I think we know...we've seen this play out before.

Impertinent said...

Our...errrrr....Underclass needs attention. They're being denied their God given rights....so they call...911.

http://m.wave3.com/#!/newsDetail/25507827

Z said...

Ducky, and you don't think you have 'created an atmosphere?' How many times have you said people attack you and, every time, yours was the first out of the canon that was nasty?

And, please...you finally admit that there WILL always be poor; tell us how you would do away with an underclass. Please..
We'll "try" very hard "to be open". We PROMISE.

"the poor deserve everything they get?" WHERE do you GET OFF? Do you really READ MY BLOG?
Do you REALLY think conservatives don't care about the poor?
My GOD.\

Oh, MAN, I am so uncharacteristically ticked when I have to respond to comments like this. My husband used to read my comments to liberals and ask "that's YOU?" because I am SO VERY RARELY this nasty in 'real life'.
I really wish I could avoid this but my blood BOILS.

Z said...

Ducky, by the way...how "enlightened" were YOU when you said Breitbart would be better in a body bag?

Impertinent said...

@Z:

"Ducky, by the way...how "enlightened" were YOU when you said Breitbart would be better in a body bag?"

Ahhh....the" enlightenment" of liberalism...the most illiberal of all. Pond scum.

Ed Bonderenka said...

What defines an underclass?
It comes off as a contemptuous term, as if these people have "betters".
But if it refers to economic strata, then a bell curve distribution would result in a group having less, a mean and a group having more.
The only cure would be economic redistribution of wealth.
Economic flatline.
Communism.

Duck?

Impertinent said...

@Ducky:


WE'RE WAITING...PLEASE....ANSWER....WE'RE ALL WANTING TO KNOW HOW MUCH YOU'D BE WILLING TO "REDISTRIBUTE". AND WHOSE WEALTH...WOULD YOU CONFISCATE?

Impertinent said...

It appears that what we'll get with a Hitlery in the WH...is Bill....in a role reversal making excuses for her? Why do we want this again?

Bill excusing her inadequacies as she did for his uncontrollable need to whore and fornicate. While she then said...."What does it matter"?

Z said...

OK...so what do we DO?

Can a society ruined by leftwing promises at the expense of the majority ever flourish again?

And how do we defeat the ridiculous lies?
If you're a Republican, you're evil; you don't like minorities or women, you don't believe people should be helped in any way, you don't care about the poor, etc etc etc.....
America's never done anything good.
America doesn't deserve to be the world power anymore.

How do we fight those nonsensical, ridiculous lines?
If you have lost control of education, how do you teach the truth?

Anonymous said...

Hey, Imp; I guess Bill sticking up for Hillary today is the truly original "TIT FOR TAT", huh? :-)

Impertinent said...

@anon:

I guess that's fairly accurate.

Impertinent said...

@Z:

"If you're a Republican, you're evil; you don't like minorities or women, you don't believe people should be helped in any way, you don't care about the poor, etc etc etc....."

Please...do not omit I like my beaches fouled...my water the consistency of old 5W40...my anti freeze with a touch of vodka...my senior citizens left alone to die...my air as thick as that over Bejing where the sun looks like the moon in broad daylight...and my fish and sea food totally polluted with poisons.

Duckys here said...

You see it all as a zero sum game, Imp.

Doesn't have to be.

I would avoid having so much kapital accrue in the top strata that it dampens growth.

I wouldn't join the crowd who wish to change everything from prisons to schools into for profit enterprises.

Would I pay more for consumer goods? Yes, but since I'm well off it isn't a particularly useful question.
But no, I wouldn't whine like a child if a better wage at a restaurant raised he price of my meal.

Duckys here said...

@z --- If you have lost control of education, how do you teach the truth?

-----
How did you learn the truth, z?

Where did you get this jingoistic uncritical attitude toward America?

Kid said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kid said...

Z, I don't see us having that in the US. The term Underclass brings to mind more of the Caste system in India which is seemingly impossible for a person to break out of from what I know.

Impertinent said...

@Duck:

"But no, I wouldn't whine like a child if a better wage at a restaurant raised he price of my meal."

It's gone way beyond that duck. How about the meals of the poor and underclass? How about the cost of energy for these same poor and the minimum wage? Do you not think that the price of food has been unaffected by the asinine requirements of ethanol? Or Cafe´ standards?

Me...I agree with you..as I too am "well off". but that doesn't make me all warm and fuzzy that the ones who can never share in my steak...are the very same you champion.

Yet...you revel in your white privilege...apparently. In other words Duck...a typical snob.

Bob said...

Ed sed, "But if it refers to economic strata, then a bell curve distribution would result in a group having less, a mean and a group having more.

The only cure would be economic redistribution of wealth.
Economic flatline.
Communism."

Ed. Don't you understand that Ducky wants the distribution of wealth to look like a vertical line? That's communism. Since the world quite naturally distributes components in various ways, in none of them do they look like vertical lines.

Z said...

Ducky, "uncritical?"
Who's uncritical?
I believe TRUTH only comes from knowing all sides to every issue.
Not big on leftwing indoctrination; particularly in our schools. Sad that anybody'd think that's American.


And, please, folks; let's go 'for profit'...let's get fair pricing, let's really help the middle class by bringing prices DOWN.
Let's get more profit sharing within corporations.
I'm a BIG advocate of that.

Kid said...

Bob Your comment - "How would you rid a country of an underclass? "

Excellent, Truly excellent.

Kid said...

Sam, Treasonous acts are now rewarded with "bradley chelsea manning sex changes" for free.

Kid said...

Baysider, as Mustang has pointed out to me, George Washington and Cincinnatus had a lot in common.

True that.

Kid said...

IMP, 90% + of the democrat strategy to maintain their position to rob us blind is maintaining as many victim classes(dem voters) as possible.

Kid said...

IMP, yea, people like duck don' eat' at Mc D's. people who can only afford Mc D';s eat at Mc D's.

So, if the wage of the MCD employee goes up 3 bucks, lots of those people are going to lose their jobs.
next time you're in one, notice how many people are there to punch the buttons for what you want. Why can't customers do that for themself? That's a lot of people let go.

Plus minimum wage doesn't just apply to these sorts of people. Many union people have wage contracts based on minimum wage, so if the minimum wage goes up so do theirs. Can we guess what happens next libtards?
Prolly not libtards, so I'll tell ya. The price of everything else goes up.
Resulting in an "Inflationary Price Spiral" (look it up) where no one wins except the government who collects higher tax revenues.

This has all been done before. And failed, and replaced with something to keep the sheep farm alive so it can continue to be sheered....


Impertinent said...

@Kid:

"Why can't customers do that for themself? That's a lot of people let go."

It's already on the way Kid. Mcd's has started the process. Over 7000 minimum wagers....will be let go.

My wife covers 3 Mc'D counties... and their PR....i't's in the making.

Mickey D will not be going into bankruptcy...but their workers will...thanks libs..

Bob said...

Kid, Thanks.

The strange thing to me is that Ducky and his liberal fellow travelers think they can move people from the bottom income distribution into the middle income distribution without their cooperation, i.e., without their working for it. The big thing that has changed in this century is under Obama, there is a dearth of jobs. Ducky hasn't figured out that income distribution is not the problem. The problem is the moribund economy wrought by the Hope And Change policies.

Duckys here said...

To me Bob, the strange thing is that you fundamentalists are incapable of thinking through the structural deficiencies in the economic system.



Jade said...

WTF?

Sam Huntington said...

Coincidently, I am amazed that Ducky imagines that he has the capacity to reason past the Marxist talking points of Think Progress. The man is a dolt.

Rational Nation USA said...

While the reasons for an underclass might vary in different economic systems (capitalism, socialism, feudalism, communism, fascism...) there will always be an underclass. Irrespective of Ducky's "The poor will be with us because we haven't the will for it to be otherwise." the truth is such will continue to be the reality of human existence.

For a society to be totally class free would require everyone to have the same abilities/capabilities, desires, motivations, work ethics, morals, etc. and the simple truth is people don't and the safe bet bet is they never will.

But Ducky, keep the faith. One day it could, just maybe happen.

Kid said...

Bob, I'm not convinced any libtards care about anyone but themselves.

I've never seen any evidence of it.

Z said...

Rational Nation...you think we'll some day have the 'same capabilities,' too?

WOW. What a very sad world libs 'keep the faith' for.