Sunday, October 7, 2012

Sunday Faith Blog

Do you believe in ghosts?   Or spirits?

"For this God is our God for ever and ever; he will be our guide even to the end."  Psalms 48:14
Does it fit?

have a great Sunday....

Z and Mustang 



43 comments:

Ed Bonderenka said...

The witch at Endor:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%2028&version=KJV
is the only biblical example I can think of where it appears that the dead can be communicated with.
That and all the biblical injunctions against doing it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_of_Endor
That wikipedia article seems to cover it well.
I'm of the opinion that there are demonic spirits that influence men's minds, but ghosts of people passed on roaming the earth is extra-biblical. And seeking them is a road best not travelled

Anonymous said...

I agree with Ed. I'd also add that the "spirits of the dead" that some people do claim to see, that may manifest in seances for instance, or in "haunted houses" are most likely demonic impersonations, possibly by the demons that possessed that soul in life, also known as "familiar spirits."

Protestant Voter

Always On Watch said...

Ghosts? No, although at 2:30 A.M. on Gettysburg National Battlefield Park, I did see something strange. Maybe I imagined what I saw, but I'll never forget the experience.

Demonic spirits impersonating ghosts? Yes. I think that the Bible makes one very specific reference to that, and there may be other ambiguous references as well.

There may be restless spirits that are real, but I highly doubt it.

The Holy Spirit doesn't talk to me, but on one specific occasion, the Holy Spirit calmed me down and showed me the correct path to take for a specific situation. Maybe I'll write about it someday. It was a life-changing event!

Silverfiddle said...

I have never had a supernatural encounter, but I agree with Ed and Anon that evil spirits do roam the earth.

FrogBurger said...

I do. And it is a good thing. I thing this proves there's something after death.

My grandpa committed suicide and each time I would go into my grandma's basement as a child, I would feel the presence of someone watching me. It was scary in a way but I know it wasn't a bad spirit.

Later on in life, during my tough months after my divorce, my grandpa, who I barely knew as a child, came into my dream and told me "Don't worry, I'm here to help." My brother had a similar experience when he had a car accident and passed out for a few minutes.

I also had one event one night when sleeping where I heard my door knob. It woke me up and as I opened my eye, I saw a face watching me. It looked like my grandpa. It could be hallucinations but I believe in spirit and souls being around us.

When my grandma was announced she had bone cancer and had a few months to live, I told my grandpa that I didn't need his help anymore and that he should take care of grandma, his wive. My grandma lived many years after (8.)

You can call them angels if they're good and demons if they're not but I believe in spirits, ghosts and paranormal stuff.

Mustang said...

It is impossible to say one doesn’t believe in “ghosts” if he or she at the same time believes in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. I do believe in angels —a presence, and it is again impossible for me to believe in only good spirits. If there are good spirits, then there must also be bad ones. I do not think that either the bad or good have power over us; I believe our “free will” must win out every time. And, of course, choosing wisely becomes even more important.

While not part of the post, I would like to say that I do not agree that a suicide necessarily creates a bad presence, or an evil one. There are wonderful human beings who are so tortured that they see suicide as the only remaining alternative. We must not judge them harshly, IMO … unless we have walked in their shoes for even a short while. I do not believe the church is correct to say that a suicide damns us to hell. I keep seeing those people jumping from the World Trade Center … I see no sin there.

FrogBurger said...

Thanks, Mustang. I've talked to a friend and he told me my grandpa could attempt to trap me into a bad place, and that I should be cautious. I've been struggling with that question of suicide, bad spirit, etc...

He was a depressed man but a good one.

Ed Bonderenka said...

AOW: I look fwd to reading that.
FB: I assume that being from Europe that you do not have a biblical worldview. I don't mean to sound condescending. Is that the case?
The bible doesn't just warn against "familiar spirits", it forbids contact, which informs a number of the comments here.

Technically, faith in God is the key to salvation and suicide is seen as absence of faith. Given certain death by flame, I'd attempt flying.

FrogBurger said...

Hi Ed, I don't have a Biblical worldview indeed. I don't know what that means actually. Since the world is not 100% Christian I don't understand how you can have a Biblical worldview. If that means applying Biblical principles to your life, then I get it.

And if that's the case, I'm sure I'm a sinner. I do not believe in dogmas of any kind.

If that makes me a bad person, so be it.

FreeThinke said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mustang said...

Fear is a natural part of the human condition; it is not caused by a lack of faith, but we overcome it through faith, or stubbornness.

Each of us must find our own way to God. God does not want us to love him only because someone is threatening to cut off our heads if we do not. Nor even because someone is threatening us with hell and damnation if we do not. God wants us to come to him of our own free will ... which is, in my view, the purest form of love.

Ed Bonderenka said...

FB: I'm a bad person, I'm a sinner.
Mustang: agreed.

Z said...

Mustang, bless you for mentioning ANGELS because that was more my question and it simply didn't occur to me.

Yes, ANGELS.....something not warned against in Scripture.

FB "Worldview" generally means how we view things and I do view the world through the lens of Scripture; whether everyone else does is another story.


AOW, I hope you DO write that story about the Holy Spirit. I STRONGLY believe (no, KNOW) that the Holy Spirit is here and that was what I meant by "Do you believe in Spirits?" but I didn't want to lead the conversation by being that specific.

Especially since studying and leading Bible study and since Mr. Z died, I absolutely believe in the Holy Spirit and his proddings and whispers.

I love the phrase of CS Lewis:

“God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks to us in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: It is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world”

The Holy Spirit does this work.

Z said...

Ed, we ALL are...isn't it nice to be part of God's family in that way? I know I can't be perfect and so do you and so does He.
And it absolutely doesn't matter. Not one bit.

FrogBurger said...

Z, I still don't understand what that means. If world means human nature and condition, that makes sense. But I find the word "worldview" very broad and unspecific.

And to be honest, I've seen different interpretations of the Bible amongst religions. So which ones is correct? I mean some Catholic have used the Bible to justify politically socialism and some communism.

That's where I am very cautious with a dogmatic approach.

And that is why if someone want to think I'm a bad person because I am human and do small sins, or don't have the correct worldview, then their righteousness has very little value to me.

Mustang said...

I believe the proof of God’s existence is that he speaks to us in a personal way every day. It is far less important (to me) what other people think about religious beliefs, than what I think about it after listening to God … what my heart tells me is correct. We don’t find God based on what others tell us about their truth; we find God based upon what He tells us from deep within us. I don’t know what “world view” means either. Here’s what I do know: I have been to hundreds of churches in my lifetime. I have only felt God’s presence in a few of them. In contrast, I feel God’s presence in my life every day. In spite of this, I still sin; I still require His forgiveness and His guidance, every single day.

Pris said...

I do believe in spirits, and to think they're demons, is IMO, short sighted.

My paternal grandfather, as he was close to death, said there were relatives, who had already passed on, standing around his bed, waiting for him.

I know several people who have had similar sightings and experiences, none of which were frightening, or evil.

My Mom had told me for years, how, when I was a little girl, I came running in and told her there was a soldier on the front porch.

She ran out immediately and there was no one there, anywhere. She was afraid it was my uncle who was overseas, and a tailgunner in WWII.

However, my family heard from my uncle that a good buddy in his unit, was killed.

After my dear Grandmother died, my Mom called and told me, she walked into the living room, and there was my Grandmother sitting in her favorite chair.

So, I believe God does work in mysterious ways, and also there are things which we are not attuned to or willing to accept, which may be good, and comforting.

That doesn't mean they're evil, it just means we're either open to them, or not.

Ed Bonderenka said...

If you're interested in a true story of an exorcism I participated in, suggest
http://apps.bonderenka.com/Blog/?e=59621&d=01/28/2011&s=Church%20is%20Not%20Always%20Boring%20pt%201

Right Truth said...

No I do not believe in ghosts.

I think the other comments here are interesting though and as point out there are evil spirits, which I do not classify as ghosts.

Debbie
Right Truth
http://www.righttruth.typepad.com

FreeThinke said...

Since I was inspired to post on this topic by Z's question, I'll give it the shortest possible answer here:

YES! ;-)

~ FT

Impertinent said...

@Prisc:

"After my dear Grandmother died, my Mom called and told me, she walked into the living room, and there was my Grandmother sitting in her favorite chair."


I got chills after reading that Prisc....I experienced the exact same thing a few days after my Dad passed. He was in his favorite chair ( I was as sober as a judge) and he said everything will be all right...take care of Mom. I told her about it and she said..."you Too"?

I've always been a believer and I wonder if that just makes me more susceptible to an occurrence like this?

That happened in November of 2011....and I haven't had another since.

Constitutional Insurgent said...

I believe in 'ghosts' from bothmy personal experiences and especially those of my wife and in-laws. For whatever reason, some people seem to get trapped or waylaid in between here and some sort of afterlife.

I generally find the topic intriguing, especially when combined with religion, as most Christian sects have undergone processes to interpret and define their understanding of an afterlife, or the concepts of heaven and hell.

-FJ said...

Do I believe in ghosts? Yes, they live in our subconscious and spark unwanted thoughts, usually bad memories.

MacBeth (Banquo) and Hamlet both come to mind (but not unsolicited). ;)

-FJ said...

As for Angels, I believe in them as well, only they live a little closer... in the Lacanian symbolic realm. They are "ordered", as their ghostly counterparts lie subconsciously deeper, and generally remain, much as other PTSD symptoms, in a "disordered" state.

FrogBurger said...

Pris's story is fabulous. It reminds me what I heard from my family about my grandma's passing. After she passed the TV turned on magically.

beakerkin said...

I don't believe in ghosts or spirits. I would be more frightened
by a whiny ghost that complained get off the couch, lift the toilet seat.

beamish said...

yes

There is no political solution
To our troubled evolution
Have no faith in constitution
There is no bloody revolution

We are spirits in the material world
Are spirits in the material world
Are spirits in the material world
Are spirits in the material world

Our so-called leaders speak
With words they try to jail you
The subjugate the meek
But it's the rhetoric of failure
We are spirits in the material world
Are spirits in the material world
Are spirits in the material world
Are spirits in the material world

Where does the answer lie?
Living from day to day
If it's something we can't buy
There must be another way

We are spirits in the material world
Are spirits in the material world
Are spirits in the material world
Are spirits in the material world

beamish said...

and...

Creeping up the blind side, shinning up the wall
Stealing thru the dark of night
Climbing thru a window, stepping to the floor
Checking to the left and the right
Picking up the pieces, putting them away
Something doesnt't't feel quite right

Help me someone, let me out of here
Then out of the dark was suddenly heard
Welcome to the home by the sea

Coming out the woodwork, thru the open door
Pushing from above and below
Shadows but no substance, in the shape of men
Round and down and sideways they go
Adrift without direction, eyes that hold despair
Then as one they sign and they moan

Help us someone, let us out of here
Living here so long undisturbed
Dreaming of the time we were free
So many years ago
Before the time when we first heard
Welcome to the home by the sea

Sit down sit down
Sit down sit down sit down
As we relive our lives in what we tell you

Images of sorrow, pictures of delight
Things that go to make up a life
Endless days of summer longer nights of gloom
Waiting for the morning light
Scenes of unimportance, photos in a frame
Things that go to make up a life

Help us someone, let us out of here
Cos living here so long undisturbed
Dreaming of the time we were free
So many years ago
Before the time when we first heard
Welcome to the home by the sea

Sit down sit down
Sit down sit down sit down sit down
As we relive out lives in what we tell you
Let us relive out lives in what we tell you

Sit down sit down sit down
Cos you wont get away
No with us you will stay
For the rest of your days - sit down
As we relive our lives in what we tell you
Let us relive our lives in what we tell you

Z said...

By the way, Ed...you said "I assume that being from Europe that you do not have a biblical worldview."

The media would have you believe that but I've lived in two countries in Europe and the churches are full and active. In Germany, if you say you're a church member, you're highly taxed on income for it, so most don't 'fess up, but they go.
In France, the cathedrals are quite full.
And there are bible studies all over.



After my mother's mother died, a few days later, Mom was gardening in the front and came in through the double front doors which could only be opened with a key...there were no handles, just kind of attractive 'pulls'....if you didn't have a key, you couldn't come in because even if it was left open, you coudln't turn those 'pulls' to open.

She sat in the den and suddenly felt a draft, got up and walked into the entry hall, saw the door was open, thought she must not have pulled it tight, and pulled it tight. This happened 2 or 3 times...

My sister said her bedroom light was on when she awoke one morning after that grandmother died, and another sister thought she saw her at the foot of the bed.

I don't believe that's a demonic grandmother or anything close to it.

I also don't see anything mentioned in the Bible about this.

who knows!?

Brooke said...

Maybe... But I think it's mostly just an overactive imagination.

My husband has a interesting idea that a ghost is not a loose spirit, but rather a resonance of leftover energy, perhaps neurological, that some people are more sensitive to.

Sam Huntington said...

I believe in the Holy Ghost.

Jan said...

Again, this is another of those things that we may never understand, or comprehend, but how can we deny that either angels or demons exist given all the experiences that people have, all the time?

I certainly do believe in angels, having had personal experiences along this line, and I believe in demonic activity because Jesus spoke of casting them out, and indeed did cast them out of certain individuals.

In the bible we read that God is Spirit, and that we who worship Him, must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

As for loved ones appearing to individuals, I would never say that isn't true, either, since my husband experienced that with his own grandmother during a very troubled time in his life.

I don't understand about 'ghosts' who hang around all the time, though, as if they are stuck here for whatever reason...but isn't it possible that God could allow the spirit of a departed loved one to minister to their loved one in a time of need? After all, He is God.

The Bible speaks of angels being ministering spirits to the heirs of salvation, too.

There are some things that we just know, but the older I get, the more I realize that there is much that I don't know!

But this one thing I DO know...the Holy Spirit is very real, and so is His Presence!

Teresa said...

Yes, I do. Some of my experiences in the Pocomoke Forest confirmed my belief.

Ed Bonderenka said...

FB: If I have offended you, please forgive me. Sometimes in comments certain affections are not conveyed and I have only but the most respect for you.
Worldview is a common term similar to paradigm which is, I believe, even more obscure.
Similar to what Z said, it's the frame of reference by which we observe our surroundings.

Pris said...

"I've always been a believer and I wonder if that just makes me more susceptible to an occurrence like this?"

Imp, I believe you're open to it. I think a believer is ready to accept it, and unafraid.

I see what you experienced as comforting, and your Dad's visit as a message for you not to fret, and that he's in a good place.

FreeThinke said...

The only ghost I ever saw
Was dressed in mechlin -- so
He wore no sandal on his foot,
And stepped like flakes of snow.
His gait was soundless, like the bird,
But rapid, like the roe.
His fashions quaint, mosaic,
Or, haply, mistletoe.

His conversation seldom,
His laughter like the breeze
That dies away in dimples
Among the pensive trees.
Our interview was transient --
Of me, himself was shy;
And God forbid I look behind
Since that appalling day!



~ Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

One can have glorious adventures in the mind contemplating exactly what the poet might have meant in writing this stealthy, delicately eerie exercise.

~ FT

Z said...

Sam...this morning, of all mornings, we said the Creed, which we VERY rarely do in church...

And this morning, after my Sunday Faith question today, it was "I believe in the Holy Ghost; the "...

funny, isn't it?

FrogBurger said...

Ed, thanks. You're forgiven. I just don't want to be seen as a bad guy because my paradigm is different. To be honest, I'm struggling to establish a paradigm aside from applying basic moral principles to my behavior (10 commandments.)

So telling me what I should do is never the best way to help because I like thinking on my own without being influenced. It's just how my brain is wired.

And philosophically, away from Faith, my view on the word and human nature is very objectivist. Greed, selfishness are not necessarily bad to me. They may not be spiritually elevating but they are part of us for example. Those may be part of the original sin, and the goal of faith is to minimize the impact of all those "animal instincts."

It's a long journey and as I always say, once I get there, I'm sure God won't need me to stay on this planet anymore.

Anonymous said...

FB....plenty of people seem to have 'got there' and it seems like some are kept here by God to help others..or something!!?
Who knows? :-)

z

FrogBurger said...

Maybe I'm saying this b/c I know it's going to take me a while :)

Anonymous said...

FB..you think ANYBODY has it ALL figured out?

Just when I think I'm close......foiled again :-)

xxx Z

Teresa said...

Z,

You really had me wondering what the Catholic Church teaches on ghosts or spirits so I did a bit of research. I posted on the Catholic teaching on ghosts and have linked your post over at my other blog - http://catholibertarian.com/2012/10/09/boo-catholic-teaching-on-ghosts/

God Bless.

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