Friday, June 14, 2013

The War on FAITH?

STOP THEM!  STOP THEM!  That's OFFENSIVE, that should be ILLEGAL...they can't DO THAT!   Really?

What is Obama afraid of?  HERE is an interesting piece about religious rights in the military. The linked article says:

"In other words, Obama says he will veto any bill that forbids his appointees or officers from telling a soldier that he cannot mention Jesus during prayer or have a Bible on his desk, or that keeps those appointees from telling a chaplain (who is an ordained clergyman) what religious teachings he is allowed to give in worship services, or what spiritual counseling he can give to another soldier."

It's like Obama's hell bent (you should pardon the expression!) to make sure people cannot celebrate their faith.  How darned offensive is a Bible sitting on a desk or a soldier's mentioning Jesus in prayer?   I'm thinking that being in the service, particularly in combat or the kind of scary duty our soldiers have now patrolling enemy homes (I mean in Afghanistan and Iraq, not here, of course :-)...might be just the time soldiers start praying for help and comfort.   Can you IMAGINE Obama and the Pentagon banning korans? :-)   I can see the headlines now, right?   NEVER HAPPEN!!

And why the HECK is the Pentagon jumping to Mikey Weinstein's bidding?  Think THAT is coincidence?  

Then there's THIS article which includes:

"The third amendment is the most consequential. Rep. John Fleming (R-LA) offered an amendment specifying that the religious speech and actions of all service members is a protected right, and that the Department of Defense will enact regulations to allow and accommodate those beliefs in both word and deed." 

Anybody find that offensive?

Funny, I was watching one of my favorite war movies, DESTINATION TOKYO, and a kid has to have an appendectomy on a submarine performed by a guy who's barely a medic.  They say The Lord's Prayer...all the sailors.   Gee, nobody was offended, fancy that!

I have no desire, nor do I think it's right, to push any one faith in the military, but to deny chaplains the right to say Jesus or deny soldiers to have a Bible on their desk?   Really?   "Psssst!  if you don't like it, don't read it"

Enough said?   What're your thoughts?

Z

57 comments:

Always On Watch said...

Have any in the military or any retired from the military commented on this?

sue hanes said...


Z - Nobody should push their faith on others - in the military - but no one should be denied the right to practice their faith.

It's as simple as that. There has to be other issues to worry about.
What does it hurt to practice one's faith. What's wrong with mentioning Jesus?

Let's get on with this and stop worrying about who believes what.

The Screaming Eagle said...

Thanks, Obama voters for the great job you did last November! .
Now this country is an open highway to disaster. we don't enforce laws when it comes to immigration, and treason is no different or Obama would of been sent out on a rail a long time ago.
You just imposed on the rest of us degraded medical care and rising costs. This is no longer hypothetical or abstract. It's real. It's the law.

Though it is hard to bear for leftist utopians, sometimes there are no ultimate solutions to social inequalities from big government. Maybe the solution was to keep the local family clinics so that when a homeless guy, reaching into a dumpster, cuts his hand on glass, he can go to the clinic and gets his stitches. Yes, we can have soup kitchens too.

However, ObamaCare doesn't fix the problem.

Utopian dreams and schemes can be worse than the problem, the cure worse than the disease.

Dr. Frankenstein cried, "It's alive! It's alive!" Then the monster was unleashed.

Progressivism/modern liberalism = today’s American Communist.

Thanks, Obama voters. You just unleashed the monster.

JonBerg said...

Screaming Eagle,

"Thanks, Obama voters. You just unleashed the monster."

Yes, and these people are far too simple-minded to have a single clue as to the havoc that their "right to vote" wrecks upon this nation (including them). It's way past time to reform voting registration requirements; and yes that will probably NEVER happen! The institution is now in the hands of the inmates-God help us!

conservativesonfire said...

Gosh oh golly darn but we must make sure we don't offend any athiest or Muslim that might be among us.

Sadly, I think the real reasson is the States wants be god to all.

Very dangerous!

Constitutional Insurgent said...

Prayers as part of official ceremonies, in front of involuntarily assembled audiences of multiple and no faiths...are to be non-denominational.

Religious activities in the military are remanded to the Chaplain Corps, as it should be. The appearance of command endorsement of any religion should be avoided.

Z said...

CI, I totally agree. Nobody's advocating for a "Military religion".
Except I've read of recent situations where Christian families can't have Jesus mentioned at private funerals for their dead soldier. That's just plain wrong.


Sue, I agree.

Always, CI just did. take a look.

Screaming Eagle...The only "Obama voters" I have here, usually, is those who couldn't vote for Romney.

ConsOn Fire...good point about the State. They're really trying, aren't the, and this could be just one more run on their secular ladder to the god in the White House.

Constitutional Insurgent said...

Z - "Except I've read of recent situations where Christian families can't have Jesus mentioned at private funerals for their dead soldier. That's just plain wrong."

It's wrong if the family didn't request a Christian service. But that's not exactly what transpired. The issue you're referring to, was an instance where Arleen Ocasio, the Director of the Houston VA Cemetery, issued guidance to National memorial ladies Volunteers to not tell grieving family members 'God Bless' unsolicited, and to remove the reference from mass produced condolence cards.

Overboard? Perhaps. But not the censorship claimed by the allegations.

Dave Miller said...

Z, isn't this about proselytizing? Should someone of Jewish faith be made to hear, or maybe endure language that sees Jesus as Messiah?

Should a Christian be made to see Krishna elevated to the status of their Lord?

As CI pointed out, can't the military be non sectarian in their application of religious liberty?

I don't think, apart from trying to evangelize people, that people are being denied a chance to follow their religion and celebrate God, or Jesus.

Maybe I am missing something in the language I saw that was referenced in the article you cited.

Mustang said...

I did spend a few years in the Marine Corps; I always appreciated the fact that the Navy Chaplain Corps provided religious services to those who wanted to attend them. They were always non-sectarian—by which I mean there were services for Catholics, services for Protestants, and services for those of the Jewish faith. Admittedly, we didn’t have services for Buddhists, Animists, Taoists, Hindus, or Mohammedans … nor those who worshipped themselves. It went along nicely, I think.

My favorite chaplains were the Catholics … and I am not a Catholic. They were straight shooters, they’d often come out to the foxhole where you were hunkered down, and they did it in rain or shine, day or night, and when mortared or rocketed, you could always find the Catholic Chaplains in the mix of things … good luck finding the protestant Chaplains, who were always too busy keeping their asses covered.

I think I may have seen one or two Jewish chaplains in three decades of service. Today they have Mohammedan chaplains, too. I wouldn’t have allowed one of those bastards near me. That’s just me, by the way. I’m a racist.

I remember meeting a few atheists in the Corps … but I never recall any of them during combat. I remember hearing a lot of Lord’s Prayers and near-silent muttering, “Please Jesus, get me out of this shit …”

I really appreciated our Navy Chaplains. And then, of course, Obama came along with his agenda…

Constitutional Insurgent said...

I'm not terribly religious, but I also, have enjoyed the company of every Catholic Chaplain that I've served with.

Ed Bonderenka said...

In Basic, I was an agnostic lapsed Catholic.
They marched us to chapel and I joined the Catholic crowd.
Before Mass they offered confession.
I thought, "Why not?".
I went in and said "Bless me father for I have sinned,... help me out here, I can't remember what comes next..."
He was indignant.
He couldn't believe I didn't know the formula.
After a little bit of that I went back out and waited on the steps for the TI.
We had a nice chat when he came back to wait for us.
I remember when we graduated they were going to give us a treat and let us off base to hear one of the Astronauts who'd been to the moon talk.
All he talked about was smuggling Bibles to Eastern Europe.
I got up and walked out.
There were no repercussions.
Being a Bible Thumper now, I see both sides, but there is a happy medium.
The Obama administration is hostile to religion as most lefty's are.
They are destroying a heritage of religious support for those who want it.
Most of that is because of the gay agenda, also.

Ducky's here said...

Here's the official administration statement:
" The Administration strongly objects to section 530, which would require the Armed Forces to accommodate, except in cases of military necessity, “actions and speech” reflecting the “conscience, moral principles, or religious beliefs of the member.” By limiting the discretion of commanders to address potentially problematic speech and actions within their units, this provision would have a significant adverse effect on good order, discipline, morale, and mission accomplishment."

Never mind what would happen when Muslims start making demands I wonder why z objects to officers making command decisions to maintain good order.

Scotty said...

Mustang said: "My favorite chaplains were the Catholics … and I am not a Catholic."

A short story. We were hit by a sniper. He killed one and wounded another. When the medivac bird landed off jumped a Catholic Chaplin armed with nothing but a sling shot....yeah literally, a sling shot!

I was an FNG at the time and before we mounted up and started walking, I was delegated to keep an eye on the Padre.

We got hit again and during the fire fight I looked back to check on the Chaplin and he raises his hand to me and opens his hand and he had "smile, God loves you, written in his palm.

He was quite a guy! He hung with us for over a week.

At the time I was a heathen...he left a lasting impression.

Impertinent said...

@Ducky:


"this provision would have a significant adverse effect on good order, discipline, morale, and mission accomplishment."

Yea...especially when a mooslem murdering, coward, dirt bag jumps out of a crowd of unarmed and unsuspecting soldiers at an Army base, wearing an Officers ( 04) uniform and screaming allah snackbar.

Scotty said...

"Impertinent said: screaming allah snackbar"

I've just have to use that one!!

Mustang said...

@ Imp ...

You must be talking about the stellar job the NSA did to foil Major Hassan’s attack against unsuspecting, unarmed soldiers and dependents. Now of course, since Barack Hussein Obama outlawed training law enforcement personnel about the true nature of Islam, the NSA analysts no doubt concluded that should Hassan go off the deep end, it would only represent another sad example of work place violence … and having come to that conclusion, they took another coffee break.

BTW, what's with that new Avatar? Are you a Democrat now?

Sam Huntington said...

I never once saw a commander or a chaplain proselytizing ... not once. Military chaplains are there when you need them; they don't run you down and begin unsolicited preaching.

I did see two "mandatory" program involving military chaplains: the first was pre-marital counseling, mandated from on-high. The second was administering last rites to our dead and dying.

Also, the chaplains I knew could offer religious services without making them sectarian. They were trained to do this. I think all chaplains could administer "last rites" if a Catholic chaplain was not available. I suspect that today Moslem chaplains might actually thrust a knife into the hearts of our wounded while whispering "Allah Snackbar." I don't see much benefit to this from a purely American perspective.

Impertinent said...

@Mustang:

"BTW, what's with that new Avatar? Are you a Democrat now?"

A touch of sarcasm jarhead...LOL

Alfred used to be a favorite of mine..and I thought his motto of "What, me worry" was just the opposite of how I felt now. And I was also trying to make Ducky comfortable and happy....I know it's his favorite source of ideas.

I'l probably go back to my unit patch again.

Impertinent said...

@Mustang:

"You must be talking about the stellar job the NSA did to foil Major Hassan’s attack.."

I was and as I mentioned before...since only 10% trust the feds and 76% trust the military...I'm all for a military coup to counter Oleaker's coup with the aid of his dumber than dirt acolytes.

I'm sure we'll much more...better men rather than a "few" to save the country.

Impertinent said...

@Scotty:

"I've just have to use that one!!"

Have at it...use it always when referring to our "piece full" friends..."deity".

Z said...

I think it's clear that the whole point of my post is that it's Christian soldiers and sailors who should be able to pray and that Christian chaplains ought not be told they can't say JESUS or GOD.

I have always said I don't believe in spreading the gospel ANYWHERE unless someone ASKS for clarity or for information regarding salvation through Jesus.

Scotty, I LOVE that 'hand' story...what a great guy. And does your remark mean that you have come to stronger faith since your time in the service; and did that experience contribute to it?

CI "overboard.." "perhaps?" I think so. I think most faiths involve the mention of GOD and of course I wouldn't expect Jesus to be mentioned at a service that wasn't a Christian one! Why would they? One doesn't generally invite a Protestant Chaplain for a Jewish or muslim funeral.
And I'm pretty sure neither of them would mention Jesus


Sam..that's the point; "they're there when you need them"...except I've read enough that suggests that might not be the case in the future.


Dave, no...it can be non-sectarian if it's not a Christian event, funeral, etc.
NOBODY IS SUGGESTING JESUS BE MENTIONED AT MILITARY GATHERINGS, Dave. I believe that was clear.

And I agree that the Marine emblem, for example, shouldn't be printed on Bibles.


My POINT IS that every faith should be able to pray in the military. The article clearly says that the WH wants to be the one selecting what religious input a chaplain can tell a soldier...and I do not believe a Bible sitting on anybody's desk is a threat.
And I do not believe that a koran would be asked to be removed.

I also hope everyone sees how the Pentagon is jumping to Mikey Weinstein's opinions and views.

amazing weakness there...on our side.


Pris said...

I wonder if this latest assault on Christians will have a consequence such as fewer Christian men and women joining the military!
It is after all, a voluntary military right?
Also, will we now see no more crosses at Arlington?

Of course we all know that Marxist and Fascist leaders do not like the idea of competing with God, do they!


Pris said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
FreeThinke said...

If we have real faith in the power of Almighty GOD, we don't need to worry about the antics of the temporal world.

Didn't Jesus say, "My Kingdom is not of this world?"

If we understood that and believed it, none of the things we fret about would have any effect on us at all.

Pris said...

FT,
"If we understood that and believed it, none of the things we fret about about would have any effect on us all."

Oh, so FT I guess that means all your comments will go away? For one who has plenty to fret about and comment on, I guess you sure have wasted your time, huh?


The fact is this decision is against the Constitution. Another tearing away at our rights and freedom.

If one is willing to sacrifice his life for our country, he ought to be able to pray, and stand up for his religious belief.

Z said...

Pris, you make excellent points and I DO believe that making it more difficult for our soldiers to embrace their faith is a terrible disservice to God and all we believe in and well worthy of discussion.

We owe it to our Christian soldiers, and to God, to make their faith easy, to let Chaplains mention Christ to them, let them pray together, to allow services with God mentioned; not to do what we can to block their faith.

Scotty said...

"Z said: Scotty, I LOVE that 'hand' story...what a great guy. And does your remark mean that you have come to stronger faith since your time in the service; and did that experience contribute to it?"

Oh yeah! Accepted the Lord two years later....the Padre was just one in a long line of seed planters!

Constitutional Insurgent said...

Z - "to let Chaplains mention Christ to them, let them pray together, to allow services with God mentioned..."

Surely you're not implying that is anywhere in the Administrations SAP?

The statement clearly seeks to remove command influence on the Chaplains. As it should be. Nowhere, anywhere is it written, implied, supposed or alleged that a Chaplain cannot utter the words Jesus of God when ministering to a Christian service member.

Impertinent said...

Incest and nepotism rules the WH...so it rules the Press...consider this:

"“Conflicts” is not the best description of Farhi’s subject. His topic is marriages, unions, and blood, legal and romantic and familial connections between individuals where one party works in media and another works in politics.

The extent of such links is staggering. Farhi has to interrupt his story to announce, in a parenthetical, that Post reporter Sari Horwitz, who covers the Justice Department, is married to William B. Schultz, who is Kathleen Sebelius’ top lawyer at the Department of Health and Human Services. Ben Sherwood, the president of ABC News, is brother to Elizabeth Sherwood-Randall, “a top national security adviser to President Obama.”

Another Obama national security aide, Ben Rhodes, is brother to David Rhodes, president of CBS News. One of CNN’s top D.C. hacks is married to Tom Nides, whose upward career trajectory has taken him from the office of Democratic congressional powerbroker Tony Coelho to, where else, Fannie Mae, Credit Suisse, and Morgan Stanley, as well as a two-year stint as an undersecretary of state for Hillary Clinton. Whose daughter is on contract with NBC.

White House spokesman Jay Carney, who worked for many years at Time magazine, is married to Claire Shipman, a correspondent for ABC News. The White House correspondent for NPR, Ari Shapiro, has been married to former White House counsel Michael Gottlieb since 2004.

Longtime NPR personality Michele Norris went on leave in 2011, when her husband Broderick Johnson, a corporate lawyer who served in the Clinton White House, joined the Obama reelection campaign as a full-time adviser.

Wall Street Journal political reporter Neil King is married to Shailagh Murray, who serves as communications director for Vice President Joe Biden, and who used to report on Congress for the Post. Savannah Guthrie of NBC recently became engaged to Mike Feldman, a former Gore aide who is now part of the Democratic Glover Park Group consultancy.

Syndicated columnist Connie Schultz is married to Democratic Sen. Sherrod Brown of Ohio."



And we wonder why the press fails to do it's duty?

It's worse than a Ménage à trois!

Z said...

Ci...I don't know what SAP is.

"remove command influence?":

"In other words, Obama says he will veto any bill that forbids his appointees or officers from telling a soldier that he cannot mention Jesus during prayer or have a Bible on his desk, or that keeps those appointees from telling a chaplain (who is an ordained clergyman) what religious teachings he is allowed to give in worship services, or what spiritual counseling he can give to another soldier."


Scotty, what a wonderful thing! Blessed be the seed planters, right? I think you're probably one now.

Impertinent said...

"Overprotective, over-solicitous, making excuses, indulgent, sympathetic, understanding, partial, antagonistic to outsiders—this is how the mainstream media has behaved during the years Barack Obama has been president. And it is exactly how you would behave, too. If your family were at stake."

Impertinent said...

@Z:

Sap:The watery fluid that circulates through a plant, carrying food and other substances to the various tissues??

Z said...

And Imp...nobody but conservatives hear this stuff and nobody really cares.
It's so clear that the media echos their liberal spouses, friends, etc............typical.

Z said...

Imp, see CI's 5:21 comment.
I know what THAT 'sap' is :-)
I know some MEN can be 'saps'...but I don't know what that SAP is :-)

Sam Huntington said...

SAP = Statement of Administration Policy

Constitutional Insurgent said...

Z - "I don't know what SAP is.":

It's there in your Breitbart link; Statement of Administration Policy (SAP). It's essentially a signing statement.


"remove command influence?"

Yes. Do you want a unit chain of command to be able to dictate what a Chaplain may or may not minister to service members? I don't. And that's what the SAP stipulates.

Constitutional Insurgent said...

On second read, let me retract part of my last post. The SAP is so poorly worded, I'd like to research it more.

Impertinent said...

@Z:

"And Imp...nobody but conservatives hear this stuff and nobody really cares."


Well I didn't know they were that far under the covers and in bed with each ( Literally not figuratively ) other in a never ending daisy chain!

Z said...

Honestly, CI, there are so many double negatives, I think I'm losing the sense of it..
help me!

Imp, right! There is something just wrong with that...but , obviously, we can't stop couples from being journalists or working in government. It just stinks that SO MANY who have strong voices in the media are so in-bed with policy makers...and that they're mostly so leftwing!

Constitutional Insurgent said...

Ah yes. No wonder I try not to rely on "in other words' from partisan sources.

Section 530 allows for protection from UCMJ at the discretion of the Commander, of conduct or speech prejudicial to good order and discipline, when the offender claims immunity by way of religious belief.

Both Section 530 and the Administrations SAP are contentious and fraught with imprecise meanings.

But regardless...it's always wise to remember that what's legal protection for the goose...is legal protection for the gander.

Constitutional Insurgent said...

"Honestly, CI, there are so many double negatives, I think I'm losing the sense of it.."

Don't look at me.....not until I've had a dram or eight of Scotch...can I make much sense of the political chicanery foisted on us by the elected class.

Z said...

Well, CI, I'm going down to pour a little Bourbon into a 7up and enjoy it..maybe I'll understand better after that glass :-)
let me know how YOU do !!!

Constitutional Insurgent said...

Right behind you....as soon as I workout....I'm cracking the seal. Heck....I drink enough....I almost start to like Liberals.

Maybe it's pity.....

Impertinent said...

@Z&CI:

I know where Ms. Z is and I don't know where CI is...but it's been cocktail time here for over 3 hours...catch up guys.

Impertinent said...

@CI:

"Heck....I drink enough....I almost start to like Liberals..."


Then it's not Scotch friend...check the label...must be kool aide?? LOL

Z said...

Imp: that was FANTASTIC about the KoolAid...GOOD ONE, my friend! THAT REALLY WAS CLEVER :-)

Now, I really AM going downstairs to a 7 and 7 and dinner :-)

see y'all later!

Constitutional Insurgent said...

Imp.....I'm currently in the Pacific. Happy hour hasn't started yet. And nothing but a single drop of water goes near my SMS. Quality Scotch brings out my conciliatory side....usually.

Jack Whyte said...

Fleming's bill protects religious speech of service members. Presumably, this would include all officers in command, all officers in charge, all Noncommissioned Officers … who could, if they wanted to, proselytize to their subordinates. In my opinion, this would be very bad juju…

Assume that a captain or lieutenant in charge of 140 soldiers or sailors was a Moslem, a Mormon, or a Jehovah Witness; and this officer began to lecture his men and women about his religious beliefs. This would not be good for morale or efficiency in that company. The same is true if the officer was a Catholic, a Methodist, or a member of the First Church of Bob. The military is in the business of fighting wars, not converting the heathens.

Obama argues that an officer or noncommissioned officer may not proselytize to their subordinates, as it smacks of unlawful command influence respecting religion. I agree with him.

Apparently, this all stems from a major who kept a copy of the Holy Bible on his desk. One of his troops objected to it, arguing that as an atheist, he objects to being made to feel as if he had to be a Christian in order to get along with his officer in charge. And the atheist organization took advantage of the situation and took the matter to court – or threatened to do so. IMO, the major used poor judgment, and the trooper was taking advantage of a weak leader. Both of them deserve an ass whipping.

I served as a senior NCO and as an officer in command. I also served as a senior staff officer. Not once did I feel a need to keep a Bible on my desk. I believed that my religion was no one else’s business, and the religious preference of my subordinates was none of MY business. In all my time in the military, I never had one problem with a chaplain.

Impertinent said...

@CI:

"And nothing but a single drop of water goes near my SMS.."


Ahhhh....a true Aristocrat!

Z said...

Jack....excellent. You've brought me around. Still, I think it's sad if a military man can't have a Bible on his desk but I TOTALLY understand why it's not a good idea.

For the record,
I have NEVER thought that ANY religion should proselytize ANYBODY but I still think the situation at Houston is not unusual and I think it's really wrong. If a Christian funeral's attendants can't mention Christ or God, we're in BIG trouble in this country.
And I do think that it's open season on Christianity and I think the pentagon's very obvious jumping to Mikey Weinstein's whims is REALLY STUPID and a sign of the (ridiculous) times.

And I do think faith should be encouraged, no matter which it is. Of course, I only think one makes sense or

Constitutional Insurgent said...

"Ahhhh....a true Aristocrat!"

I believe my pedestrian breeding excludes me from that title. I do however, pursue 'connoisseur'.

Elmers Brother said...

The Protestant Chaplain was the only one who came out in Iraq. But then it was Easter and I was the only congregant.

Elmers Brother said...

Never mind what would happen when Muslims start making demands I wonder why z objects to officers making command decisions to maintain good order.

Having served duhkkky knows what good order is?

Z said...

busy evening....friends come by with dinner.....share a 7&7, I sneak up and comment.....
do you ever do that?...have people over and sneak away to see what's at the blog?
I used to do that even with a 'real' dinner party of 8...the dinner would wind down, people'd be talking with Mr Z and I'd run upstairs to my computer :-)

Constitutional Insurgent said...

Z - Yep. Not my blog, per se. You get a hundred fold more traffic than I do.....but I do sneak away at times and see if there are responses to something I wrote at another site.

FreeThinke said...

"Oh, so FT I guess that means all your comments will go away? For one who has plenty to fret about and comment on, I guess you sure have wasted your time, huh?"

Yes, Pris. I have, indeed, wasted my time. There can be no doubt about that.