Wednesday, September 1, 2010

"Don't call me 'DUDE'!" Bravo

Sometimes I think what happened in this video is what's wrong with our country. A kid mouths off to a cop who he didn't hear and didn't heed, though he could see he's being spoken to....The kid keeps calling the cop "dude"....well, I'll let you see the rest........

I can't find the information on him that I heard on TV yesterday, but from what I remember, a police commission board recommended he be relieved of duty for six days cooling off time, that's all. But, though the ending was a happy one, with the cop explaining to the kid's mother the danger the kid had put himself in and despite the kid and the cop apparently ended up shaking hands, the head of the police department has fired him and stripped him of the pension he was supposed to earn in only a few short months after his retirement. What do you think?

125 comments:

soapster said...

Statist Pig.

Z said...

the kid or the cop?

Major said...

Good Cop...I don't blame him for his attitude. It is disrespectful to address a police officer as "dude".

Z said...

Major, I think this video is hard to see because we've become so soft...he did get a tad rough but, as he said, the kid could have been endangering himself and others by skate boarding where it was prohibited...then the kid clearly sees it's a cop calling to him and, trust me, when I was a kid, if I saw a cop yelling something at me, I'd not keep doing it and then tell him "I just didn't hear you, DUDE!"

soapster said...

Considering the kid isn't a state employee it goes without saying.

"The kid could have been endangering himself..."

It is not the authority of the state to protect us from ourselves. What's more, it is most definitely not the authority of the state to prevent us from "possibly" endangering ourselves.

So far as I can tell from the video, there doesn't appear to be an overwhelming threat to those passing by.

It was as true 20+ years ago as it is today.

Skateboarding is not a crime.

Z said...

Skateboard in some areas is most certainly a crime, Soapster, I've seen many signs forbidding it.
Google "Illegal to skateboard"...there's information there. And it is most definitely a crime to endanger others and the reason we need policeman in the first place.

And no kid should be that disrespectful to any figure of authority but our society's gone mushy and "the child's always right"...which is a very dangerous mindset.

To have fired this cop just short of retirement and stripping him of his pension for this is unconscienable..he had a perfectly clear record beforehand and just happens to have an old fashioned streak of good values and the silly notion that children should respect those of authority. Go figure.

Brooke said...

Whoa. The kids could have been a bit more respectful, and Lord knows I yell at my kids from time to time, but this cop BLEW UP. I can deal with the yelling but shoving that kid w/o was crossed the line. If he intended to arrest him, maybe, but not like that.

Brooke said...

I meant w/o intent to arrest. Whoops, the fingers got behind. :)

soapster said...

"Skateboard in some areas is most certainly a crime, Soapster, I've seen many signs forbidding it."

So is hanging both men's and women's underwear together on a clothes line in some places. I'd still do it anyways. But alas the nanny state prevails where everything becomes a crime all the while real crimes against humanity go unabated.

cube said...

So the cop lost his job and was stripped of his pension? Over this? That's absurd.

That kid needed someone to insert a boot onto his ass... it should've come from home, but he certainly needed it.

I have always taught my girls to be respectful of police officers. They aren't Nazis. They tend to return the respect when it's given.

Ducky's here said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Ducky's here said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Mustang said...

Technically, whenever a police officer waves you over … you are under arrest. The law requires that you submit to the authority of the police officer. The law protects you when or if a police officer exceeds his authority. Such issues are always resolved after the fact, and I’m sure the youth in this case learned an valuable lesson.

Police officers cannot afford to lose their temper. They are carrying firearms, and I think this hold them to a higher standard. The professional police officer would have waived the kid over, told him move away from the area because skateboarding is illegal at that location. At this point, there is no debate. The police officer might even have admonished the boy not to be disrespectful (e.g., Dude). If the boy resists the police order to move, since he is already under arrest, place him in custody and transport him to the station. End of confrontation. Police officer keeps his job.

The larger issue is more complex. We can agree that we have too much government. What is the government’s interest in forcing me to wear seatbelts, while excusing a motorcycle rider from wearing a helmet. Answer: there is no compelling interest for me to wear a seatbelt other than it generates revenue to the city where I get my ticket. I personally think this is bullshit. There is a compelling interest in anti-drunk driving laws because there is a matter of public safety. Too much government is never a good thing, and neither is a police officer who loses his cool.

Z said...

Mustang, he'd been motioning and yelling for the boys to stop the illegal skateboarding and then the video went on when he got angry.

I believe police shouldn't ever lose their cool but for him to be fired and lose his pension when the Board only recommended six days probation(which I think is right), is utterly nuts.

To all:
This isn't about whether skateboarding should be legal...


Since when does a kid see a cop waving him away from what he's doing and yelling to stop and just keep doing it? Nobody cares about that?
If the guy had seen a kid killed on a skateboard (and that has happened too frequently), maybe that fury translated here; not to excuse his touching the kid, by the way, which I don't necessarily agree with, but I think our kids are punks these days and need to shape up and actually (GASP!) be a little worried when they see a person of authority, at least enough to say "Hey, what's up...all we're doing is skateboarding..SIR"

Ducky's here said...

Hey z, this guy is just short of his 20 and he's riding around in a little car, dressed like a circus performer and hassling kids.

A real up and comer. Department must have known he was a psycho.

Z said...

Ducky, the department's 'psycho' since they're the ones who put them in the jerky little outfit and stupid eco-car, huh?


EVERYONE:

I know he overreacted..there's no doubt about that, but NO PENSION? FIRED? Just before retirement with a perfect record?
i suppose it's reasonable to consider that cops can't have emotion and get upset, no cares for what he might have just gone through elsewhere,etc..he needs to be professional enough that he does NOTHING wrong EVER , just like all of us in our jobs..right? HOW?

I'll just add that I remember the kind of thing we thought when I was a kid (which wasn't THAT long ago!) if a cop approached and was very clearly gesturing or talking to US.
"UHOH, there's a policeman...better shape up!"

I don't think that's too much to ask. But, maybe we're living in a dream world if that's what we think today. Is today better? I sure don't think so.

soapster said...

Considering the exhorbitancy of some of these public pensions and the degree to which some citizens are on the hook for their insolvency, yeah I'm okay with them taking a hit.

Karen Howes said...

The cop overreacted, but the kid was a little puke.

Anonymous said...

Z, I agree with you wholeheartedly. This kid is fourteen, and has no respect for authority, and very likely for adults either.

For this policeman to lose his job and his pension over this is beyond absurd. That is a lifetime punishment in exchange for a few minutes of discomfort for a smart mouthed fourteen year old.

If my son or grandson ever spoke to a cop like that, he'd have been in for a longer lecture than that from his Dad, and no skateboard for at least a month.

However both of them learned at a lot younger age about respecting their elders, and figures of authority.

I think this policeman did this kid a big favor. If there's a next time, he'll think twice about how to behave.

Soapy, this kid is a minor, they weren't supposed to be skateboarding there. If a cop sees kids doing something that he feels is risky, there's nothing wrong with warning them. It's a public service.

All this boy had to do is say, "yes sir", pick up his skateboard and walk to a place where skateboarding is allowed. Instead he challenged the cop. What a little brat.

It's not the state's authority to protect you from endangering yourself Soapy, you're an adult and supposed to know better. A fourteen year old, doesn't always know better.

If I was this boy's parent, I would have gone to the cop's superior, and asked him not to fire him, and take away his pension, and I would have made my son to apologize.


Pris

Ducky's here said...

Well z, it's like this. Boston is ground zero for skateboarding. Used to attract a lot of boarders because there just happen to be a lot of out of the way areas where you could try a lot of difficult tricks. Much better stuff than in the very few skateboard parks.

I did some footage and some interviews with the kids before the mayor started to run them out of town for no particularly good reason. Law and order types who feel threatened by anything "other" were the prime movers.

But the kids were okay, they weren't looking to aggravate anyone or cause trouble. They just wanted to learn a few tricks and enjoy their boarding.
I could talk to them without any problem but try talking to a cop like the one in the video. Guy has a real control problem and is much more of a threat to freedom and expression than those kids.

It's not kids like the boarders who bring us a rigid authoritarian culture, it's people like that cop.

Chuck said...

I don't know.

I have an issue with kids being disrespectful to authority and my kids have been taught better than this.

I think the cop lost his cool and stepped over a line though. I'm with Mustang, these guys are armed and they are trained. They need to be held to a higher standard.

I especially had an issue with him practically putting the kid in a choke hold.

If this were my kid he would have hell to pay but so would the cop for treating him like that.

With this said, I do agree that firing him is over the line. I would think an unpaid suspension of 6 days or so, probation, and maybe a little education on anger management is more in order.

The Duck does have an interesting point also, a cop near retirement doing this kind of duty - may be a bit more to him than meets the eye.

Z said...

Ducky, could you explain how skateboarding can possibly be the point here?

My POINT is the firing of this guy for this.

Chuck, wouldn't you be a bit more careful if you were retiring soon? I'm not getting your point.

Soapster, no offense, but that seems completely incomprehensible; the guy's worked his whole career expecting what his town's promised him, he messes up ever so slightly (you can even see he is very loose on that 'choke hold'...probably the way they're trained to get someone to sit down..) and you say "Tough!"?

Z said...

Ducky, could you explain how skateboarding can possibly be the point here?

My POINT is the firing of this guy for this.

Chuck, wouldn't you be a bit more careful if you were retiring soon? I'm not getting your point.

Soapster, no offense, but that seems completely incomprehensible; the guy's worked his whole career expecting what his town's promised him, he messes up ever so slightly (you can even see he is very loose on that 'choke hold'...probably the way they're trained to get someone to sit down..) and you say "Tough!"?

Z said...

Pris, I could not agree with you more....

HENCE, this is why I say this kid and the firing of this cop are quintessential to the decay in our country today....
Touching the kid might have been wrong but putting that aside, this STINKS.

Ducky's here said...

This cop was under no threat, did not face a situation that demanded force and he acted like a feral animal.

The issue is that you have a LOT of cops who are on the force because they are petty little martinets who want to push people around for no compelling reason. Again, this guy is a few months shy of twenty and this is as far as he's moved in the force?

I say it's because they know he's out of control and enjoys pushing folks around. If he doesn't know how to handle this situation then he should be gone.
He's not a threat to you because you would never, ever dream of drawing outside the lines but kids do and authoritarian personalities like this guy can't handle that.

I've run into them and seen the way they react to skateboarders as a case in point.

Admit it, you desperately need to feel protected from "the other" and you are going to give this pathological example a lot of leeway. It's a bigger threat to freedom than anything those kids might be doing and he can handle it without going psycho if he has to roust them at all.

Chuck said...

Z, I have slipped into some bizarro world here because I am agreeing with Duck. My point was that someone that has been around as long as he appears to have been around should have advanced further than skateboard patrol. I am just wondering if this is the first time he has gotten into trouble. This could also explain the firing...

David Wyatt said...

All things I've read considered, this still really angers me that the department head did what he did. The policeman went overboard doubtless when he shoved the kid, but i am amazed that the kid went on when he heard & saw the cop's command to him. The kid surely was taught a valuable lesson, & the cop maybe should have been reprimanded on his going too far. But I agree Z, what they did actually hurts the authority of the police IMHO.

Major said...

"dressed like a circus performer and hassling kids"


Duckshit...you're such an outrageous buffoon that sometimes I wonder if you ought to be institutionalized with Lindsey Lohan. Are you on drugs? A medically induced stupor or a coma? Are you taking thorazine or librium?

Suppose that same cop ( circus performer as you describe him ) showed up at your particular cubby hole in the limb of a dead tree...and these same punks....we're skateboarding over your stupid carcass...you'd still call him names?

Duckshit.....it's turds like you...who allow punks and dipshits like this kid to disrespect the law...and the authority of the law enforcers to do do their jobs.

Anyway....I hope...really...that you never need a cop in a "clown suit" to assist you..other than...well, I wish that they'd be allowed to peees on you.

Duckshit....back to your hole...you POS.

Major

Major said...

"This kid is fourteen, and has no respect for authority, and very likely for adults either."


Yup...and the little scumbag will be, more than likely rooming with a Bubba in a pen somewhere soon enough.

Anonymous said...

"He's not a threat to you because you would never, ever dream of drawing outside the lines but kids do and authoritarian personalities like this guy can't handle that."

Ducky, a cop, by definition, IS an authority. Kids draw outside the lines? Maybe some do, but did you notice the boy's friends? They didn't. They understood there was a line they shouldn't cross.

The cop demanded respect from a fourteen year old. Now, if a boy that age thought he could get away with challenging a cop, and continue his smart mouthing, how does he treat other authority figures?

If he doesn't get taken down a peg or two, he's learned nothing. He'll continue this kind of behavior, because he can. Didn't you hear him say he has no father? He needs a strong hand or he'll be in worse trouble down the road.

You're making excuses for inexcusable behavior. He's probably a handful for his mom, if he has this attitude toward the law.

The cop being under no threat isn't the point either. The point is the cop was trying to straighten this kid out. To teach him to show respect. Yes the cop got mad and frustrated. Does he really deserve to lose his pension because of it?

He humiliated the kid, he didn't hurt anything but the boy's pride, and as I said before, maybe if there's a next time, this fourteen year old will think twice before he challenges a cop.

Pris

beamish said...

As a former skateboarder in my youth and not without my share of police harassment in those days, I have to commend the skater on his restrain.

"Dude" would not have been my word of choice. "Asshole" would have sprung off my tongue without hesistancy.

A low IQ public servant with a gun does not trump your free speech rights, ever.

Z said...

David, yes, the kid was taught a valuable lesson....something a lot of kids don't get these days.

The policeman had a perfectly clean record, by the way, everyone.

beamish said...

Looks to me like Officer Dude is a greater danger to the public safety that a kid on a skateboard.

"F*ck you" is all this jackwagon deserved as an answer. And when he threatened to smack the kid upside his head, the proper response would have been "I wonder how you're going to do that with my skateboard up your ass."

beamish said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
beamish said...

Valuable lesson, what?

That if you remain calm, and let the government's licensed thug put his hands on you, you can get him suspended if you're lucky enough to catch it on video?

Elmers Brother said...

I agree with duhkkky, this guy crossed the line.

beamish said...

I hate to disagree with you, Pris but...

The point is the cop was trying to straighten this kid out. To teach him to show respect. Yes the cop got mad and frustrated. Does he really deserve to lose his pension because of it?

It's not the cop's job to "straighten the kid out." Having a license from the government to shake people down to enhance the city revenue at gunpoint is no grounds for deserving respect. There's a reason this parking meter fairy is not a full cop with a real squad car. He's got Barney Fife Syndrome.

Does he deserve to lose his pension? At least. I'd start an investigation into the personnel hiring as well. Clearly Baltimore is hiring people with too thin of skin as cops.

This guy blew up into putting his hands on a lippy minor?

He better carry salt and pepper with him. Someone's going to make him eat his gun someday.

Z said...

Ducky...no more nasty remarks about 'rightwingers' at this site...do it at moveon or kos..not here ....
Too bad, you had some points in your comment..
When you can control yourself, come back. Till then, you're being deleted.

Anonymous said...

Beamish, Please don't talk to me about freedom of speech when it comes to a boy.

How do you teach kids to speak and behave respectfully, to those in authority like their parents for instance.

Are you going to tell me a kid can say anything he wants to his parents, or cops because he has freedom of speech? Just because he feels like it?

Minor kids are not peers to adults. They're children not just smaller people.

Skateboarding isn't the point. Smartmouthing a cop is the point, and whether the cop should lose his pension is the point.

It used to be that cops that walked their beat, and knew the neighborhood, would intervene in certain instances to calm situations, or try to make a difference in kid's lives.

I don't know if that's done anymore, and if not it's too bad. Now the cities are rife with gangs with members as young as ten years old, who think they own the place.

And what happens to them when they get out of line? A slap on the wrist.

They go back to their streets and by the time they're fifteen or sixteen they have rap sheets several pages long because they weren't held accountable, or taught anything about good character or behavior.

So please don't talk to me about rights regarding kids. Their brains aren't fully developed when they're kids, they need supervision, and to be called to account when they're out of line.

This cop did not deserve to lose his pension, something that affects the rest of his life in a real detrimental way.

Pris

beamish said...

Pris,

I respectfully disagree. If we're to curtail rights on some ephemeral idea that a younger person's mind is less developed, we might as well abandon the anti-abortion fight for the rights of the virtually mindless developing person in the womb.

No, the cop deserves no respect whatsoever, from children, and especially adults who can plainly see that the cop badly mishandled the situation AND conducted himself improperly and far beyond his station of purpose.

If I were that kid's parents, the cop would be spitting teeth for putting my kid in a headlock over "not feeling respected."

What a little bitch.

No, this thug gets no love from me.

You know why that cop talked to the kid that way?

Because an adult would have snuffed his punk ass out.

beamish said...

To add to my last response to Pris, I don't see how you get from "kid with skateboard" to "public menace gang member with rap sheet." That a non sequitur.

I don't believe a cop deserves respect just "because he's a cop."

It's already well documented that the average cop is among the group of people who can raise the median IQ of a room by leaving it. It's not exactly a job for people who can significantly move an encephalograph needle.

It used to be cops were smart, our best and brightest.

Them days ain't here no more.

Mustang said...

According to our blog-friend Silver Fiddle, the police do care about us … evidenced by the fact that the Cherokee County Sheriff Department reported finding a man's body last weekend in the Spring River near the Empire Electric Plant. The victim apparently drowned due to excessive beer consumption; He was wearing black fishnet stockings, a red garter belt, a pink G-string, purple lipstick, and an Obama T-shirt. The police removed the Obama T-shirt to spare his family any unnecessary embarrassment. You hardly ever hear about these positive aspects of police work.

Just Sue said...

I guess the lib reporters have never paid attention to Al Sharpton!

Z said...

Mustang, good one!
I wouldn't be a cop for all the tea in china.

Just Sue...Thanks for coming by and EXCELLENT POINT! Talk about a rant!

Elmers Brother said...

So please don't talk to me about rights regarding kids. Their brains aren't fully developed when they're kids, they need supervision, and to be called to account when they're out of line.

Young people live up to our expectations, hence the reason young people in Western societies rebel while young people in other cultures are mayors of towns or princes.

The whole concept of a 'teenager' is a hangover from the industrial revolution and the assembly line mentality of our public schools. Raise the bar for these young adults and they will meet it.

If 'dude' is the worst this cop ever got called in his life then I'd like to add a few myself. Most people would call what he did to that 14 year old assault.

and most policemen would lose their jobs for an assault.

Anonymous said...

Beamish, maybe it's time for you to hear something positive about a policeman.

When my grandson was about 2 years old, I saw a police car across the street, parked, monitoring traffic speed.

My grandson was so excited to see a "P" car which is what he called police cars, I carried him into our yard so he could get a better look.

The policeman pulled his car into our driveway so my grandson could see it close up. The cop turned on his light, and a short burst of his siren, and showed my grandson some other things about the car.

This is what I call community interaction by the Sheriff's or Police Depts. offices. They do things like this. I thanked the cop profusely, and my grandson was thrilled.

Now, if my grandson were older, and this cop saw him doing something he shouldn't for his own best interests, I would be grateful that he was lectured by that cop. If my grandson were disrespectful, he would have been out of line and deserved a dressing down.

No, I wouldn't like a physical altercation, but neither would I have wanted the cop to lose his pension in exchange for some discomfort on the part of my grandson.

When it came to rights for our children, Mr. Pris and I decided what their rights would be. They knew what line they couldn't cross.

I might add they were good kids, as was our grandson, and we are all very close to this day.


Elbro, I have a pretty high bar when it comes to children. I consider calling an adult, and especially one of authority "dude", disrespectful.

The fourteen year old couldn't keep his mouth shut after he was told to. Furthermore the video camera doesn't show what went on before the "incident".

IMO, when we excuse children for disrespectful or plain disdainful behavior towards adults, because he could have said or done something worse, the chances are, sooner or later he will say or do something worse, and push the envelope a little farther.


Pris

Z said...

Elbro, I wouldn't want a 15 year old to be mayor of my town... there's such a thing as education, experience and wisdom and age isn't enough, and it's probably why Western Society came up with some kind of guidelines for kids...where 'most' ought to be at any given time.
That's not to say 'all' must be lumped together or that expectations shouldn't be REAL high. I do believe kids rise to positive expectations and sink to low expectations (which is what our 'black leaders' are doing to our black kids, in my opinion)

So, I'd expect that any kid of mine would stop and be quiet if he saw a cop approaching, whether he could hear or not; if his lips were moving and the kid couldn't hear, I'd expect the kid to wait and see what the policeman wanted. "Dude" is really disrespectful to an adult, but yes, there are MUCH worse words to use and they are these days, our kids, because 'dude' was allowed to go by with little correction.

Elmers Brother said...

The fourteen year old couldn't keep his mouth shut after he was told to. Furthermore the video camera doesn't show what went on before the "incident".

doesn't in any way constitute the right for this guy to assault this kid

'dude' is the lingo of the day and I hardly consider it disrespectful

this cop was on a power trip, are all cops on power trips? of course not but this law enforcement officer was way out of line

respect is earned not demanded and had the police officer given the young adult an iota or respect in return he probably would still have his pension

Elmers Brother said...

in the military we were taught in leadership courses that there are times when orders need to be obeyed without question...e.g. when someone's life is on the line

however in this case the 'law enforcement' officer exhibited about everything one can do wrong to motivate anyone to show him respect

Elmers Brother said...

Elbro, I wouldn't want a 15 year old to be mayor of my town...

'teenage' rebellion is unique to western societies and some have suggested it's because we require so little of our young people

I think a 15 year might have a lot more sense then Villaragosa myself

Z said...

got to disagree..education, experience and wisdom.
Villairagossa has different opinions than I do, and he's morally nobody I'd want emulated, but he's not a 15 yr old kid.

And I don't believe a kid calling a policeman "Dude" is respectful...we might think so TODAY because, in comparison, it's not so bad as F---er, which is what the cops usually have to hear, but naa...not my kid.

Ducky's here said...

z, one of your valued posters went ad hominem on me.

Am I allowed to respond to the coward without censorship.

Elmers Brother said...

what's the cops excuse Z, if education, experience and wisdom are the answer?

Elmers Brother said...

IMO, when we excuse children for disrespectful or plain disdainful behavior towards adults, because he could have said or done something worse, the chances are, sooner or later he will say or do something worse, and push the envelope a little farther.

and when we excuse an adult for an unwarranted assault we enable and give them permission to do it again

Z said...

Ducky, No, i have to admit I just saw that Major went ballistic on you but that's fine with me.
There's a real double standard here :-) (hate to beat you to it)

I'll be gone till late this afternoon...Elbro will be deleting (thanks, Elbro)


Elbro, In my opinion no 15 yr old would be a better ANYTHING than a 35 year old....except, maybe, skateboarder.
That doesn't mean I'm maligning all 15 year olds or elevating all 35 year olds to perfection.

I'm gone till later...have at it, 'yall.

Z said...

one more thing, I'm really sorry the meaning of my post got lost here...

there's a REAL disagreement about dignity and respect and nobody's saying everybody deserves it, but let's then not expect our cops to never lose their cool for having been treated for years as dirt.

my whole point is that we have a society now where cops aren't what they should be. WHY is fodder for a whole different post.

We don't have the cops like Pris described anymore. WHY? That's my point: Society is raising people who don't respect, who don't honor authority because maybe that authority doesn't deserve honor..it's a chicken/egg vicious cycle and I don't see how we can break it anymore. That's scary.

soapster said...

"Soapster, no offense, but that seems completely incomprehensible; the guy's worked his whole career expecting what his town's promised him, he messes up ever so slightly (you can even see he is very loose on that 'choke hold'...probably the way they're trained to get someone to sit down..) and you say "Tough!"?"

"....expecting what his town has promised him...."

"Government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take away everything you have."

Dude should have been putting some away for his own sake.

Z said...

soapster, maybe he has. I hope so.

Z said...

Major, I should delete your comment again, but won't this time....restraint :-) (I know it's tough)!!!

Steve Harkonnen said...

The cop lost his pension over this?

Insane.

However, he lost his cool. Six days suspension with no pay and maybe some anger management.

However, if I were the kid's son, I'd be in the same terms with Beamish on this one, entirely. The kids were scared.

If he did that to an adult, like me? I'd be laffing my ass off.

Elmers Brother said...

Elbro, In my opinion no 15 yr old would be a better ANYTHING than a 35 year old....except, maybe, skateboarder.

then maybe I should introduce you to some.

Elmers Brother said...

a recommendation on the myth of the adolescence

Elmers Brother said...

This groundbreaking book argues that adolescence is an unnecessary period of life that people are better off without. Robert Epstein, former editor in chief of Psychology Today, shows that teen turmoil is caused by outmoded systems put in place a century ago which destroyed the continuum between childhood and adulthood. Where this continuum still exists in other countries, there is no adolescence. Isolated from adults, American teens learn everything they know from their media-dominated peers the last people on earth they should be learning from, says Epstein. Epstein explains that our teens are highly capable in some ways more capable than adults and argues strongly against infantilizing young people. We must rediscover the adult in every teen, he says, by giving young people adult authority and responsibility as soon as they can demonstrate readiness. This landmark book will change the thinking about teens for decades to come.

Anonymous said...

"and when we excuse an adult for an unwarranted assault we enable and give them permission to do it again"

Well Elbro, he wasn't excused was he. Something less than losing his pension would have been enough.

The boy, on the other hand was excused, simply because the cop was punished, and this boy's lesson was, he can get away with this, and next time he does it, it'll be tolerated.

This is how society keeps drifting downward. A step at a time. This is just another step.

There are other words considered the lingo of the day, that doesn't make it right. Not for kids, and in some instances not for adults either. Not in my book anyway.

Pris

LASunsett said...

The cop was a hot headed and unprofessional. It was all about him.

The kid was just doing what kids do. If the cop was a good cop, he would have pulled the boy to the side and said something like, "you cannot skateboard here, the reason is it is not safe to do so." Take your skateboard and go home. If the kid did not do it, then he could take him to juvenile.

Instead, it was all about how the kid was addressing him, which may have been rude but was not illegal.

I have known many good cops over the years and they have no problems with anger like this guy appears to have. There are very professional. But they mean what they say and will back it up if their orders are not obeyed, they say it once and that's it. No arguments, no nothing.

I think guys like this are punks with badges. They have forgotten the service aspect of their job. They just like the power. They should be be better equipped to avoid looking like an ass.

Sorry....maybe that is not the answer you were expecting from me. But I am sticking with it.

MK said...

That was a smack down, and a richly deserved one too. Naturally whiny leftist cretins will be most upset about it, they've never had to deal with real life and consequences though and also, they've never really matured beyond the stage of that surly teenager.

Z said...

Elbro, I know a lot of teens and I've taught and I still hold my opinion but am glad to hear yours.
I'm trying to picture a fire department run by a 15 year old..or city accounting...maybe there are a few exceptionals; we're not talking about them.

Steve, that was what the WHOLE POLICE COMMISSION recommended...six days probation with no pay. Somebody above them, I think the mayor, fired him with no pension. I agree with you.

LA..I disagree wholeheartedly but am glad to get your input. I've not said he wasn't a hothead, I say we don't know what happened beforehand or what antics on the boards they were doing...i've heard of HORRID accidents happening on skateboards, some deaths, and while it's not our job to police that sport, it's his job to keep citizens safe. Yes, he over reacted, I"ll grant you all that, but MY POST was about respect and I admired that kid in the beginning who told his friend something like "just shut up........dude" In other words, it's a policeman, he's talking to us, LISTEN. I don't think that's too much to ask.
Forget the violence, I don't think he should have necessarily touched the kid and you can clearly see the looseness of what looked too close to a choke hold..I'm talking about DUDE, as my title said.

Z said...

MK: you rock. Good you just became a dad, mate. xxx

LASunsett said...

//I say we don't know what happened beforehand or what antics on the boards they were doing.//

Maybe not, but I don't think it matters. The cop should be more mature than the boy. Like Mustang said, tell him to quit. If he doesn't, take him to jail and let the judge sort it out. If he does that, he keeps his job and gets his pension.

My evaluation comes as someone who worked in a prison before. I know how it works and how it doesn't. This guy's way does not work and it will not teach the kid much of anything.

Anonymous said...

Elbro, spare me the psychology of today, please. I don't see any evidence that kids are any better prepared for adulthood today, or any better off. In fact, I see the opposite.

If they were, they wouldn't be living with their parents until they're in their 30's or 40's.

We've raised two children, and helped to raise our grandson. Children are not prepared to raise themselves. They deserve to be children.

Ours were raised to accept responsibility for their actions, and to earn their way, which includes respect, self reliance, and self discipline.

Dr. Spock had those same high falootin' ideas which you offer in your link, and many parents believed them.

Many years later, he admitted he was wrong. A little late for an entire generation, but better late than never I guess.

Some teens are able to accept adult responsibilities, some aren't. One size doesn't fit all. It's up to parents to recognize these things in their own children. Some need a push, others need restraint.

But, we've digressed from the point of the post, and that is still, a fourteen year old who lacks respect for authority. He is not ready for adulthood.

He's still a child who most likely will have a hard time because he hasn't learned a modicum of humility or respect for authority.

I'm done. I'm all talked out, and said enough.


Pris

Z said...

well, everyone, this sure got us all going, and I appreciate your all weighing in. Even those of you who are wrong :-)
(just kidding, sort of!)

Thanks, I really am glad to hear all your opinions.

Jen said...

I'm wondering if he was fired b/c this incident was the last straw for that cop?

I'm NOT the kind of parent to run up the the school and throw a fit when my kids get in trouble...believe me. In fact, I encourage their teachers to be open with me about my children and their behavior. However, I felt my blood boil when watching that video.

I agree with LA and ElBro. The cop went over the line of duty and into abuse, in my opinion.
It would be VERY difficult to teach my son to respect law enforcement after an incident like this. Screaming "RESPECT ME!!!" doesn't exactly get the results one desires. I know, I've tried. :(

There is a much more effective way to teach young men and women respect...and this guy didn't do it on that day.

Z said...

Jen, everybody agrees he went over the line, some of us have the line higher than others.

I feel sorry for so many of our kids today because they respect nothing. I'm not saying someone has to demand respect but these kids looked like "What the........?" As if his being an adult and in authority doesn't even phase them.

Elmers Brother said...

Elbro, spare me the psychology of today, please. I don't see any evidence that kids are any better prepared for adulthood today, or any better off. In fact, I see the opposite.

it was normal a little over a hundred years ago to expect more from a young person...the psychology of today puts young people in a silly box and decides by fiat (based on an even sillier notion about age) that young people are incapable of adult responsibilities

I realize it's not the conventional wisdom of today but it was the norm a little over a hundred years ago and it's the norm everywhere else but in western societies.

I was speaking about others trying to excuse the policeman.

Elbro, I know a lot of teens and I've taught and I still hold my opinion but am glad to hear yours.
I'm trying to picture a fire department run by a 15 year old..or city accounting...maybe there are a few exceptionals; we're not talking about them.


it's cultural clap trap Z. it's not that young people aren't capable, we just never give them a chance...we as a culture have low expectations and they meet those low expectations.

Elmers Brother said...

Some teens are able to accept adult responsibilities, some aren't. One size doesn't fit all. It's up to parents to recognize these things in their own children. Some need a push, others need restraint.

even the word 'teenager' is a term that wasn't used until the middle of the last century. I know some families who don't even use the word...mine being one of them.

beamish said...

I feel sorry for so many of our kids today because they respect nothing. I'm not saying someone has to demand respect but these kids looked like "What the........?" As if his being an adult and in authority doesn't even phase them.

I have to disagree here, Z, and it's not because I have an admittedly biased and lower than low opinion against cops in general. I tend to believe police departments are a jobs program for people too stupid to make a living twisting ties on loaves of bread.

That said, the kids looked like "what the...?" because this micro-wit was going apeshit over them skateboarding in public. Even after they stopped to listen to him sputter and spittle in rage... and over what? Not being taken seriously? You'd think from his screaming antics that the kids had run over his last doughnut or something. Maybe it was that they posed a greater complex scenario than wheeling up to parked cars to see it the meter had run out.

Whatever the case, the cop insulted the kid's family and upbringing, threatened violence and death to the kid, and then choked and slammed him down to the concrete.

The cop was so jacked up that my first impression was that he was flipped out on cocaine or steroids. Definitely over-compensating for a lack of something. Respect perhaps. 20 years and checking parking meters. The kid gave him no more respect than he himself gives himself in the mirror each morning.

I've seen too many cops act as bullies because they become so smug and full of themselves to give this cop any leeway.

He simply crossed a line he should never cross.

I'd like to tell him about a cop I saw outside a bar here in St. Louis I used to work that at closing time the cop lost his cool trying to get people to clear the street and go home and started slapping people around and he boxed a woman in the ear, tearing her earring out and causing her to bleed profusely.

A relatively peaceful crowd turned quickly violent, and the cop got the absolute shit beat out of him, with his gun, with his nightstick, and he ate a full can of pepper mace and I believe the batteries of his taser were drained on him by the time it was over.

I watched this take place, and smiled.

I'd say he was lucky to have lived from that night. He's lucky nobody blew his brains out with his own gun.

He was left, sobbing for someone to call him an ambulance.

If only all bully cops could experience that.

Chuck said...

I have thought about this since last posting and I am even more set in my original assessment. I do agree that kids should be more respectful but who teaches them this respect?

Obviously the parents but also teachers, clergy, and, the police. I don't want to sound like Hillary Clinton and say it takes a village but all in society are responsible to some extent for children learning respect. Their life long learning is a collection of experiences like this.

This cop, instead of talking to the kid about the rules and also about how to respectfully address an officer, became enraged and petulant. I agree with one of the comments above that he was acting like a little bitch.

Instead of taking the chance to help educate a young man and assist with his development into a productive member of society, he left him with the notion that the police are nothing but bullies that fly off the handle and assault you if you are not "nice" to them.

This officer was exhibiting barely controlled rage that escalated to physically assaulting a minor because he was riding a skate board and calling him dude. This officer wasn't confronting a gun toting gang-banger, he was talking to a skater kid.

I found the whole thing disturbing.

Z said...

Beamish, maybe we should just paint all cops as over zealous bastards with no control...maybe you're right.
I, for one, put context into it and consider they have guns aimed at them, they've just come off a hair raising 'whatever' situation and have 3 kids and a wife at home and are just supposed to suck it up, pretend they can't die, and do their job with a smile.
Maybe we should got automatons for cops. DRONE COPS. Why not?
I am NOT saying cops should be given carte blanche to make asses of themselves...I'm saying they're human and sometimes mistakes are made and the more we hammer every cop for those mistakes of a few, we're in BIG trouble. Who the hell would want thisjob?

Chuck, I disagree...I watch the end and hear the tone in his voice and, like I mentioned earlier,it was reported that they all shook hands and the Mom was fine with it all...and while he got upset,he's had a stellar career, unblemished record, and this was a very bad day and I still think a fourteen year old kid who sees a cop signaling to him should have shut his mouth and waited for what the cop had to say. End of problem.

Elmers Brother said...

Allow me to introduce you to American heroAdmiral David Farragut.

Through the influence of Cmdr. David D. Porter, who had adopted him, Farragut was commissioned a midshipman in the United States Navy on Dec 10, 1810, at the age of nine, and served under Porter during the War of 1812. A prize master by the age of 12 Farragut was promoted to lieutenant in 1822, commander in 1844 and captain in 1855.

Elmers Brother said...

A prize master was put in command of captured naval vessels, at 12 years old this man was commanding a ship.

Elmers Brother said...

then there's George Washington:

The father of our country, George Washington, though never thought to be particularly bright by his peers, began to master geometry, trigonometry, and surveying when he would have been a 5th or 6th grader in our day and ceased his formal education at 14 years of age. At the age of 16 he was named official surveyor for Culpepper County, Virginia. For the next three years, Washington earned nearly $100,000 a year (in modern purchasing power). By the age of 21, he had leveraged his knowledge of the surrounding land, along with his income, to acquire 2,300 acres of prime Virginian land.


Prior to the late 1800s there were only 3 categories of age: childhood, adulthood, and old age. It was only with the coming of the early labor movement with its progressive child labor laws, coupled with new compulsory schooling laws, that a new category, called adolescence, was invented. Coined by G. Stanley Hall, who is often considered the father of American psychology, ‘adolescence’ identified the artificial zone between childhood and adulthood when young people ceased to be children, but were no longer permitted by law to assume the normal responsibilities of adulthood, such as entering into a trade or finding gainful employment. Consequently, marriage and family had to be delayed as well, and so we invented ‘the teenager’, an unfortunate creature who had all the yearnings and capabilities of an adult, but none of the freedoms or responsibilities.

Elmers Brother said...

then there's Clara Barton.

Z said...

those are quite remarkable and exceptional children, Elbro. And, of course, my mother was married at 18 but I'd never want any daughter of mine to marry that young (tho it was the happiest marriage I know of...ever). She was exceptional, too, because most teens aren't prepared for marriage that young THESE DAYS.
I still hold my belief that, in general (and that's all I've said) kids are kids and SHOULD be allowed to be kids and, if they're also exceptional, GO FOR IT...be what you can be.
The 14 yr old was a punk who should have stopped when he saw a cop addressing him; a mature 14 yr old would have and we'd have avoided the whole problem. As I said, I'd want any boy I raised to not give lip an authority figure.

Anonymous said...

I thought I was done, but, Elbro, you caught my attention.

So, first, do you believe, like Supreme Court Justice Ginzberg, that the age of consent should be twelve?

That way we'd eliminate pedophiles wouldn't we. Kids would be fair game. Is that OK with you?

How about sex education from K-12?

All this is to say, where do you draw the line?

As far as I know, adolescence was defined according to the onset of hormonal activity. That does not make a child an adult, just because a female can be impregnated sometimes as young as 10. Her body has not matured in most cases, enough to carry a baby and give birth.

Ergo, adolescence. Not really artificial, there's a biological reason for it.

In the early 1800s the lifespan of a human being was about 40 years old. Today, it's almost twice that. It is a factor.

There's nothing wrong with apprenticeship for kids. But, if you've read Dickens, it's obvious, those young people were not treated as adults, they were treated more like students who were learning a trade.

They were under the tutelage of older men, who, I have no doubt, expected respect, and when they said "jump", the youngster said "how high, sir"?

In fact, at that time, respect for elders, was much more important. And isn't that the point here?

Today, kids are indulged, coddled, and in many cases, spoiled rotten. Their unacceptable behavior is excused rather than punished. And some parents defend their kids when they should be punishing them.

There has to be a line drawn, Elbro, it's just a matter of when that should be. I don't think we want to go back to child labor and abuse of young children who have no power.

So, to my mind, we have to consider what's best for children, and for the most part, if their lifespan is 80 years, there's plenty of time for that child to experience adulthood, and at least have a childhood.

As it is, children are being robbed of that short period when innocence is regarded as important,
at least by me it is.

They need not be pushed into adulthood when they're not ready for it, and still kids. For those youngsters who have no respect for those older and wiser than they, it will be a harder road for them.

Pris

Elmers Brother said...

I still hold my belief that, in general (and that's all I've said) kids are kids and SHOULD be allowed to be kids and, if they're also exceptional, GO FOR IT...be what you can be.

I understand Z, but this isn't a biblical principal, this is a cultural one that we've adopted over the course of a hundred or so year. It's part of the dumbing down of our children. One of the points I get especially from Washingtons story is that he wasn't even considered overly intelligent. We look at that now and think that's excepetional. He WASN'T for his day.

Perhaps the reason that 14 year old didn't act maturely is because we don't expect him to. We treat them like children and they will act like children.

Elmers Brother said...

There has to be a line drawn, Elbro, it's just a matter of when that should be. I don't think we want to go back to child labor and abuse of young children who have no power.

My point is that the line drawn is a cultural one, it's obvious from looking at other societies that our media, fashion and our assembly line mentality frustrate our young people to the point of rebellion, drug abuse and disrespectful behavior. In my own experience with my children (the youngest is 16) we had none of the 'typical' teenage rebellion so often found in our society. I believe it's because just as Paul when describing to Timothy how to train deacons and elders, he told them to give them little responsibilities and keep raising that bar. This is how we should train young people, not artificially holding them back because some progressive a hundred years ago set us up for failure.

No I don't think the age of consent should be changed. It's a separate issue in some respects. In another sense parents should be educating their children about sex so that they can make adult decisioins. Instead we've left it up to the courts and government to the the things we used to let families and God do for us.

Elmers Brother said...

Set us up for failure by artificially drawing the line by age rather then performance and ability.

It's disgusting to me in many ways that our society so undervalues the contribution our young people can and have made to our history, business and society in general. Hence the examples I provided.

We wouldn't let a 12 year old captain a ship now because we think them incapable, then we wonder why we have so many idiots running the country. We're just as freaking guilty as the libs when it comes to raising our children. We've set the bar so low that even the church doesn't know how to deal with young people who color outside the lines.

Shame on us.

Elmers Brother said...

So, to my mind, we have to consider what's best for children, and for the most part, if their lifespan is 80 years, there's plenty of time for that child to experience adulthood, and at least have a childhood.

I don't know of any parent who says I'm preparing my kids to stay a kid. Our focus is preparing them to be adults. Some of them never learn and I am of the opinion that it's this very notion that they have to have time to be a 'kid'. I'm admonished to not provoke my children or exaperate them. There is no biblical concept that I'm aware of where I am to keep a kid acting like a kid.

Elmers Brother said...

it doesn't seem to have done this 14 year old any good to keep acting like a 14 year old

beamish said...

Maybe we should got automatons for cops. DRONE COPS. Why not?

We already have those.

What we need are cops that can pass 100 on an IQ test.

Z said...

Elbro, when did "Biblical concepts" come into this subject?

I feel like I'm writing and it's not getting through, so I'll stop now.

I've said many times that kids should be encouraged to rise to their highest potential.
I'll repeat that I think all children should learn to respect their elders at the earliest of ages.

thanks for all of everybody's input.

Z said...

beamish...you hate cops. I get it.

beamish said...

We wouldn't let a 12 year old captain a ship now because we think them incapable, then we wonder why we have so many idiots running the country.

Connect all of our telepresence guided weapons systems like Predator drones and such to XBox Live and the kids today will win wars for us by dinnertime.

;)

Anonymous said...

I've already told you Elbro, that we set the bar high for our children. What we didn't do is sacrifice our power as parents to expect certain behavior concernng character issues.

I did not say we prepared our children to be children, we allowed our children to be children while teaching them how to behave, preparing them to be adults.

Don't twist my meaning to suit yourself please. I don't expect a 14 year old to be a 20 year old either. I expected my 14 year olds to be respectful of those older and wiser than they were. And they were.

You know what Elbro? You'll do what you think is best. We've already done that. I can only say, whatever we did seems to have produced fine people who deserve their own credit for who they are as well. I'm sure your goal is the same.

Arguing about this is futile, and getting a bit silly. I wish you all the best. I'm sure everything will work out fine, just the way you want it to.

Pris

beamish said...

beamish...you hate cops. I get it.

Wrong.

I hate stupid people. Not much I can do about the fact that cops tend to be stupid people.

beamish said...

I'll soften my blow a bit, Z.

Here in St. Louis, one of the top if not the top most violent cities in the United States we have a war that has been going on for years between too rival gangs. One steals cars, deals drugs, commits murder, rape, and assaults, and the other isn't sanctioned by the government to wear badges. Occasionally this war escalates to full shootouts. A good friend of mine in the Army who just got back from Iraq only got homesick when he heard gunfire break out, and not because he was in fear for his life. The gunshots reminded him of home.

Anyway, my point is the police department here is more corrupt than Bill Clinton in a whorehouse. St. Louis actually got caught in effort to dump and shred open crime reports to make the city's crime statistics look better.

To go full circle in my politics, remember only this:

Castle Rock v. Gonzales says the police are under no obligation to protect you.

You're a fool if you expect them to.

Z said...

Beamish, do you really think I don't know there ARE bad cops?

I can't and won't extrapolate to ALL COPS ARE BAD, I simply won't. But, I appreciate the explanations of why you feel like you do.
I live in LA, have you never heard of RAMPART DIVISION scandals? I don't even like most cops here because you can be very nice to them and they look at you as if you've got an extra eye.

I often wonder if they're so badly treated that they don't trust the niceness...All I'm asking is 'give the good ones a break'....xx

beamish said...

There's the old joke about the cop who changed careers to proctology because he got tired of dealing with assholes.

I understand in most instances, a cop's interaction with the public is with someone they're arresting. So, with repetition and a low IQ, everyone a cop talks to is a criminal to his perspective. I don't know if it's because police departments have become insular and detached from their communities in the years the motto "protect and serve" has become a sick joke, but whatever the cause, it's even more frightening that these institutional sociopaths (are you from the county, indeed) carry guns.

Z said...

of course they've separated themselves...the PIGS stuff from the Sixties and throwing everything they could at them just because they represented AUTHORITY had to make all cops leery...even the dumb ones :-)

Elmers Brother said...

Elbro, when did "Biblical concepts" come into this subject?

I guess when I introduced them.

Pris, I'm sure we have the same goal. I too want 14 year olds to be respectful and I do not wish to stop being a parent for some warm fuzzy kumbaya type.

BUT, (and I'll stop here) our society is sending mixed messages to our young people. On the one hand we (as a society) let them lounge around in these in between years and then cry foul when they come up unprepared for adulthood. We (public school sytem, the church) fail to challenge them because we arbitrarily draw a line at age. What a waste.

How on the one hand can we tell them to act like a grown up and not give them the responsibilities of an adult. I'm thinking if you want to teach this 14 year old how to respect authority, you give him some authority and you let him see what it's like. You want to bet he changes his tune once he realizes what that responsibiity is all about?

Z said...

nobody should be letting their kids 'lounge around'..I think Pris and I agree they should be given responsibilities in preparation for adult responsibilities, and I still maintain that distinction.....

I just wondered why you mentioned Biblical concepts......?

Elmers Brother said...

I'm pointing a finger at our society and culture and at myself, I've failed in this area.

As a Christian I believe I'm a counter to the culture but rarely feel the support of fellow Christians and the church and even fellow conservatives. In fact I think the Church as a whole will encourage you to be antithetical to the culture but then gets pissed if you point it out in the church itself. I'm not pointing a finger at anyone here in particular.

I mention scripture because it's the basis for raising our children and the reasoning behind the argument that young adults should be given more responsibilities.

Elmers Brother said...

nobody should be letting their kids 'lounge around'..I think Pris and I agree they should be given responsibilities in preparation for adult responsibilities, and I still maintain that distinction.....

I know you do. Thats not the question. Pris says each young adult should be treated as individuals. I agree. The problem is institutions like the public school system and even church do not. They divide them arbitrarily by age.

Our culture allows them to lounge around, imagine G. Washington was considered a dullard in his day.

Z said...

"Our culture allows them to lounge around, imagine G. Washington was considered a dullard in his day."

That, I agree with...but some kids don't ... I have nephews and nieces and I'm sure all of you do, and your kids, who don't loll around all day...but they're the exception, probably. Today's culture certainly has weakened and wussified out kids, there's NO doubt about that. But, that's through spoiling them, giving them too much before having given them good character....if they ever get that.

I haven't read much about rearing children in the Bible, so I'm interested in that, Elbro....??

I know you just had that experience with your church....I don't know that all churches are like that. We let kids volunteer for anything...like 17 yr old boys volunteering to cook with the ladies on a Sat. for some Sun. luncheon or something... or setting up chairs/tables.....photographing the stained glass windows for a retrospective we're putting together for our church's anniversary, etc. ALl are welcome.

Elmers Brother said...

Where we seem to disagree is that I believe a 15 year could own his own business, should be allowed to work, write a book etc.

What I am understanding from you and Pris is that for the most part young adults are too young to do these kinds of things. I think they can and should be encouraged to do so, to a greater degree and to a larger extent then our culture allows.

Z said...

"Where we seem to disagree is that I believe a 15 year could own his own business, should be allowed to work, write a book etc."

I have zero disagreement on any of the above, as long as some kind of good education is sprinkled somewhere in between!
"could", absolutely.
"should work"? Why not? I had a part time job at 15 answering phones in a carpet store and loved it.
"write a book"..sure!

that's a little less extreme than a 12 yr old being mayor of a city or its chief accountant or something. Sure, SOME KID could have those qualifications but I'd say it's very rare.

Elmers Brother said...

but they're the exception, probably. Today's culture certainly has weakened and wussified out kids, there's NO doubt about that. But, that's through spoiling them, giving them too much before having given them good character....if they ever get that

the thing is Z is that what my kids or your nephews do etc. is such a small portion of what these young people are capable of, we cosider them exceptional because the bar is so low. G.W. would run circles around my kids.

well I can generalize about churches not only because of the recent incident with my son but because I have seen this in so many other churches and not even recognized it till now. It's not only with young adults but also with the elderly and there are even churches who target certain age groups to the exclusion of others.

Elmers Brother said...

that's a little less extreme than a 12 yr old being mayor of a city or its chief accountant or something. Sure, SOME KID could have those qualifications but I'd say it's very rare.

it's rare because we don't give them the opportunity (farragut)

Elmers Brother said...

and by not giving them the opportunity I mean we treat them like individuals when it comes to their education, can you imagine a school that teaches 5th and 6th graders trig and geometry?

It's difficult.

We can also empower them to make decisions as they get older about their education. Got an interest? Let's run with, perhaps it'll turn into a vocation (eighteen year olds can't figure out what to do with their lives because most students are not encouraged to pursue their interests, instead they follow some prescribed notion of what's best for them). G.W. had a knack for math and as a young adult was tasked to survey the whole county.

I realize this isn't going to happen unless we as a country have an awakening, I'm not holding my breath. When it comes to the public school system or our culture I have no hope at all. Oh I'll make an attempts by voting, or helping individual young adults and parents guide their own children.

It's not going to happen in my lifetime. So I'll give it, my children and the country to God.

Z said...

I'm done, Elbro..but I've been fascinated by this discussion, really have!
I'm not saying there are not other Farraguts or Washingtons out there (My one nephew at 17 is literally a world-reknown expert on a certain type of collectible train and his 19 yr old brother's the youngest intern in the chemistry dept that UCLA has ever had and they're onto an amazing new discovery) I know there are THOUSANDS of kids like my nephews and your son (I almost typed his name..oops!)

Kids should have much expected of them and be given the tools to rise to those expectations...absolutely.

My only church experiences have been very different than yours but maybe because I've mostly attended churches with only about 250 members; you need everybody to participate in anything they want to in that case :-)

I think we both love kids and love this country and want our kids to do their best, be their happiest and contribute to society; and I think kids having respect for their elders is a good thing...
I think elders who don't deserve it is a lousy example.

And I"m done here (I like you a lot :-)

Z said...

"can you imagine a school that teaches 5th and 6th graders trig and geometry?"

I don't know a school in this area who'd deny a kid who was ready for that type of math at 10 years old to deny him of at least a tutor.

xxx

Elmers Brother said...

I think we both love kids and love this country and want our kids to do their best, be their happiest and contribute to society; and I think kids having respect for their elders is a good thing...
I think elders who don't deserve it is a lousy example.


I know we're essentially on the same page.

I like you a lot too. A whole lot.

as far as the math goes, can you name a public school that prepare youngsters for that math in 5th or 6th grade?

My guess is that a student who is doing that kind of work is either in a private school or homeschooled.

Elmers Brother said...

it should be the norm not the exception.

Z said...

Hi, I have heard all my life of exceptional kids who've grasped the arithmetic that they were all given so well they had to move them on and fast........all in public schools.
They don't have classes for that there, but they go to charter schools, etc...bused there, some of them. Or to Jr Colleges nearby.
Not enough kids do that well to warrant a class of them on the public school grounds.

Altho I just heard last night that Charter schools have had NO improvement over public schools in excellence, which is sad.
$$$$

Z said...

Ray, i grew up pretty smart with pretty smart kids but I can't think of 3 who could have done trig in the 5th grade. We were all working on trying to get solid (pardon the pun!) in long division..algebra and geometry!

Elmers Brother said...

honestly, I only mentioned it because George Washington learned it in 5th and 6th grade. I admit in our culture we sort of shake our head and say that could never be done, but this appears to be the normal course of study for Washington and his counterparts. I'm still doing some research into this but if he was considered the 'slow' one in the bunch, I'd be very interested to learn just what was taught to his peers.

sue said...

Take his pension away? Over something like this? That doesn't make sense. Maybe he over reacted, but it seems to me the kid needed to be humbled.

Z said...

Sue, I could take your face in my hands and give you a BIG KISS on the forehead! :-)
Good to see you! (especially when you agree with me :-)

sue said...

z - On subjects like these, nonpolitical, everyday rights and wrongs, we are right on the line.

I keep thinking of that kid sitting on the curb with that look on his face, wondering who had let him get away with such disrespect, and now the cop was straighting him out.

I can't believe that they will really take his pension away - for doing the right thing.

Elmers Brother said...

I don't think the subjects are as important to change as an inflexible system that classifies children by age rather than ability, performance and interests

Z said...

Elbro, our system is to enmeshed in the way its done now, so I don't see it changing...
I'll also add that I believe it was far easier to give younger children changes when we hadn't such a huge population. We can't be catering to the 2 in a class who CAN do trig at 10 yrs old because we simply do not have the resources.
We need something which puts our kids in groups to best serve the 'norm'...( I won't use the word 'average kid' because I resent that term)...we can't break up the third grade, for example, into MATH: 14% can do Geometry, 2% could learn Trigonometry, and the rest are at the long division or prealgebra stage.......we simply don't have the resources, the rooms, etc.
SOME categorizing HAS to happen just for sanity sake.
If people can't stomach that for their kids, they must go to tutors for extra learning, or a J.C. (as I know one young man does :-), or a private school which can accomodate those kids.

Elmers Brother said...

What if there wasn't such a thing as third grade?

We just need to think outside the box Z. It's what's best for our young people. Homeschooling is one answer I believe, and Dr. Epstein agrees, but I know not everyone can do that.

I feel and fear for our young people because we lack the imagination to help truly educate them both in academics and in matters of respect.

Z said...

We need to think outside the box as parents...as I said, the schools aren't equipped so parents need to get clever and fulfill their childrens' needs like doing homeschooling , or huge encouragement in the talents of their children, after school, I think.

In matters of respect, their own parents don't often deserve it, with so much ugly divorce and slamming the other spouse to get in good with the kids, and parents so afraid of their kids not loving them that they spoil them rotten...
boy, MY parents didn't give a darn if I loved them or not, they deserved respect and I'd never stop loving them no matter how strict they might be ..(okay, for ten minutes here and there :-) but they probably fell out of love with ME in my teens from time to time, too!! Mom's advice to younger mothers who asked was "They're not your friends, they're your children...they have enough friends"
When we're just their friends, they can't have respect as they should for a parent.
Authority figures don't even register on a teen's consciousness anymore, I fear. We tear down heroes like the way so many bashed Clinton and Bush in SUCH unseemly language, etc.......not even remembering the WERE president...we make heroes of jerks like LIndsay Lohan and Paris Hilton and punk boy teens with hair in their eyes and no talent except TONS of MEDIA HYPE...those are our kids HEROES (I'm generalizing here, of course)

So "respect"? good luck. Wish MOST kids, that's a very tough thing to expect from them.

Elmers Brother said...

I agree. So many parents drop the ball.

Respect must be earned and as parents we still must earn it. I wouldn't expect my children to respect me if I said one thing and did another.

I believe I can be both their parent and their friend but not exclusively one or the other. When they were younger as was much more their father and now as they've grown I'm much more their friend. I've not been the perfect parent, but thanks to the Lord and their mother, all three of them love the Lord and we have wonderful relationships with each other. As my children have grown into young adulthood (24, 20, 16) our friendship is deeper because my wife and I empowered them to make decisions about their own life, we didn't demand, we asked questions, and let them find the answers, so they could solve their own problems. Welcome to adulthood.

Certainly when they were younger I expected obedience so if they did run into this police officer they knew to obey him, but obeying is much different then respect. I agree in that this 14 year old should have obeyed politely. Demanding respect however only breeds resentment.

Jen said...

ElBro's last sentence is so true. I'm trying so hard to be the parent who deserves respect.

I just wanted to point out that at the University Model School that our daughter attended, each child was tested in each subject. Age didn't matter. If she scored at a 9th grade level in math, although she's only 7 years old, then she attended that class. And if she scored in a 3rd grade level for English, same thing.

I thought it was a great solution.