Sunday, September 19, 2010

Sunday Faith Blog........are Atheists like NAZIS?

Pope in the UK: Atheists Like Nazis

The British Humanist Association was quick to respond to the Pope's remarks, noting in a statement: “The notion that it was the atheism of Nazis that led to their extremist and hateful views or that it somehow fuels intolerance in Britain today is a terrible libel against those who do not believe in God.
“The notion that it is nonreligious people in the U.K. today who want to force their views on others, coming from a man whose organization exerts itself internationally to impose its narrow and exclusive form of morality and undermine the human rights of women, children, gay people, and many others, is surreal.”


Z: How many of you think the Pope is right? Before I go on, I'd like to say I know there are atheists who believe as they do and don't have any intention of slamming the faithful for their beliefs in God, like Conservative S.E. Cupp, for example, to only name one of many. HUMANISTS can't seem to grasp the goodness and value of God in society.... What are your thoughts? Man over God doesn't seem to be working for us........

"In the shelter of your presence you hide them from the intrigues of men; in your dwelling you keep them safe from accusing tongues." Psalms 31:20

"You will be protected from the lash of the tongue, and need not fear when destruction comes." Job 5:21

Have a good Sunday........stand up for your faith, remember how much better off our children and our country were before secularism rose to such new heights. Let me add that I hope our Jewish pals here had a very meaningful Yom Kippur.

z

75 comments:

beamish said...

Mr. Ratzinger should concern himself with his alleged mission to visit victims of his religion's sacrament of molestation and otherwise not draw attention to the fact that he's a former Hitler Youth standing on largely Protestant soil swinging the same swanky pimpstick miter of his predecessor who signed a concordat with Hitler and later assisted Nazi war criminals escape to Argentina.

Atheists are blithering idiots, but not necessarily down in the lower rungs of IQ anti-Semitic labor activists like um, the Nazis and the Catholic Worker movement.

beamish said...

::cough cough::

Father Coughlin

::cough cough::

Elmers Brother said...

The Humanist Manifesto describes itself as a religions some 28 times.

They believe in god.

Chuck said...

I don't have an issue with atheists as a whole, people really should be free to believe what they want. I have an issue with atheists that insist on squelching other people's right to believe what they want and their continued drive to secularize the country.

As far as the Pope, he has no credibility. While I disagreed with John Paul on occasion, I tended to like him and have considerable respect for him.

With Pope Benedict, his finger prints are all over the sex abuse scandal and he needs to go.

My wife was raised a Catholic but was estranged from them for her own reasons. We both identified with Catholicism through the years even though we were not practicing Catholics.

The sex abuse scandal has caused us to leave them behind. Priests are human and there will be bad apples in any organization. I'm okay with that. What I am not okay with is the way the church has shielded and enabled the abuse. Pope Benedict appears to have been in the thick of it.

If he were to make comparisons, the thought that Muslims are also tolerant of pedophiles come to mind...

Z said...

I only used the article as a springboard for conversation: I'm hoping we can put aside the fact that my post includes the Pope, put aside his 'denomination' and deal more with what you all think about the push to secularize Western Society in so many 'modern' countries, like ours. I'm wondering if you think we're better for it as a people and a country.
I'm talking about the sudden silliness of encouraging salespeople to not say Merry Christmas in stores when 85% Americans identify with Christmas! (like when they're buying Christmas trees!?) ...or taking prayers away from schools, football teams, etc...or removing it from the Army...You all know what I'm talking about.

As I said, this is NOTHING AGAINST ATHEISTS who believe what they believe; they are ENTITLED TO...who CARES?
I'm talking about those who are behind the secularization, those who are demanding ALL remove God because THEY HAVE from THEIR lives.

thanks

Linda said...

I know our country is the worse for it by denying God. I firmly believe that He is still in control, and is probably laughing,or crying, over the ignorance and stupidity of all of us. The only way for our country to survive is to come back to Him.

Why would you even want to live if there isn't something better on the other side?

Anonymous said...

Good morning madame Z. Hello everyone. It's a beautiful morning here on the Jersey Shore. Brilliant sunshine, just beautiful. Have a great Sunday one and all. Johnnymac.

JINGOIST said...

To the extent that atheists are "aggressive", the answer is YES, they are like Nazis. Militant atheism has a bloody and horrible history with Naziism being only one of it's manifestations. The comparison is far from perfect though. Many of the Nazi elite were born and raised as Christians, but moved to a cult-like worship of the Norse gods or just plain atheism.

Militant atheism more commonly is associated with communism, which is even worse than Naziism.
So the Pope COULD have been more accurate.

Craig and Heather said...

Happy Sunday, Z


HUMANISTS can't seem to grasp the goodness and value of God in society.... What are your thoughts? Man over God doesn't seem to be working for us........

The Humanist Manifesto describes itself as a religions some 28 times.

They believe in god.


That man could be his own god was the essence of the Edenic temptation.
Atheistic secular humanism is a religion as it is the resultant fruit of adopting the attitude of "I can be like god".

When there is no protective attachment to one's Maker, an individual becomes spiritually vulnerable to demonically inspired deception--which doesn't necessarily have to be Nazism.

It's one reason I say true separation of religion and state is not possible. The void will eventually be filled by something.



H

Mustang said...
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Brooke said...

People should believe what they will, although it is foolish to deny God.

That said, I could care less what comes out of the Pope's mouth. Hypocrisy and double talk seems to be the norm with the Catholic hierarchy.

Always On Watch said...

I note that the Pope was criticizing modern U.K. atheism. Aren't many modern atheists in bed with Islam?

My nearly-lifelong friend is an atheist. But she's far removed from the liberal atheists we often encounter on the web and in our real-world lives.

Mustang's comment is an interesting one. I have to wonder why he was condemned to hell by another blogger.

Jen said...

Why would you even want to live if there isn't something better on the other side?
---------

Linda, I've definitely felt this way before. But we are given such a short time here and it would surely be a waste to not experience beauty (life) to the fullest while we are here.

He came that I might have abundant life...so NOW I have it.

Happy Sunday to you.

Craig and Heather said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Speedy G said...

I don't believe in atheists.

BB-Idaho said...

So, was there some atheist
beer hall putsch that I missed?

Sam Huntington said...

I just heard on the news that 13 people, 8 of whom are children, are missing following a midnight prayer meeting. They left behind notes indicating they are going to meet Jesus. They left behind money and deeds to homes. This doesn’t happen every day, of course … but it happens often enough that it makes normal people say, “Huh?” I believe our founding fathers intended a secular society, with the absolute (God-given) right to find our own way to God (as God intended). If we do not value a secular society, then why should any of us condemn the Islamic republics, which are de facto theocracies? Honestly, is that what people want for America? I don’t.

beamish said...
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beamish said...

I don't believe in atheists.

Heh. That's my old line.

Go ahead, prove you don't believe in God.... prove you're simply not merely irreverent or irreligious...

Craig and Heather said...

Go ahead, prove you don't believe in God.... prove you're simply not merely irreverent or irreligious...

Some of them spend an inordinate amount of time and energy trying to ignore the God they insist doesn't exist.

beamish said...

The point is, it takes faith to accept an alleged atheist's word that he is not lying to you about his alleged beliefs or alleged lack thereof.

Lots of people who claim to believe in God are indistinguishable in behavior from the irreverent, irreligious sorts that call themselves atheists.

I default to militant agnosticism. I don't know, and you don't either. ;)

Karen Howes said...

I think the Pope's point is well-taken, but it's worth noting that Nazis were not atheists. They had a religion-- a neo-pagan one.

Karen Howes said...

Beamish, I'm usually the first to criticize my Church's representaives when they act like morons-- which is often.

But POPE BENEDICT does not deserve criticism for having belonged to the Hitler Youth. That was mandated for adolescent German boys.

As for the tired and completely fabricated idea that Pope Pius XII collaborated with the Nazis, please do some research. Not Hitler's Pope by Rabbi David Dalin would be a good start. The concordat you mention was signed literally at the point of a gun.

I AM totally with you on the Catholic Worker movement, though.

Anonymous said...

""As we reflect on the sobering lessons of atheist extremism of the 20th century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus a reductive vision of a person and his destiny," the Pontiff added."

I believe this is less a Catholic issue, but an issue concerning people who do not believe they have to answer to a higher power.

Once one takes on the idea that we have only to answer to ourselves we hold less obligaton to accountability, and to others.

This isn't to say we don't have to answer to ourselves, but if we're not imbued with a sense of morality, right and wrong, and a belief that judgement from a higher power will decide our fate.

I think it would be much easier for people to yield to harmful temptations without considering whether it's right or wrong.

I do not believe we are inherently good. We must be taught to be good, and to have the belief there will be a price to pay for evil or wrongdoing. Believing in God gives us a foundation for goodness, and a conscience.

I too know atheists and don't judge them because of it. Some are relatives whom I love. It's their choice, not mine. Neither would I reject them. What they believe is none of my business.

I do judge activist atheists who would eliminate my right to recognize and celebrate my beliefs without interference from them.

Overall, I think when a society becomes Godless, the morally weakest amongst us can cause the society harm in that they are most likely to excuse evil or wrong behavior, and even justify it.

There is no longer good or evil, or right and wrong, there is only a gray area which can be compromised to make a wrongdoing seem justified with excuses, psychological explanations, and ultimately result in acceptance.

When it becomes easy for someone to say publicly, she would like to watch Rush Limbaugh die, or to celebrate Tony Snow's death, our society has become dulled to what is right.

It has become only what is legal, illegal, or Constitutional. Right and wrong is becoming irrelevant.

The US, is in danger of sliding into a more uncivilized, undisciplined nation IMO. Anything goes, and if it's talked to death, justified and excused, it becomes accepted. I think this parallels a lack of spiritual awareness and a lack of faith in God.

Our founders did not intend a secular society, they intended a secular government, which in real terms means no Church of America, as opposed to the Church of England.

Pris

Anonymous said...

""As we reflect on the sobering lessons of atheist extremism of the 20th century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus a reductive vision of a person and his destiny," the Pontiff added."

I believe this is less a Catholic issue, but an issue concerning people who do not believe they have to answer to a higher power.

Once one takes on the idea that we have only to answer to ourselves we hold less obligaton to accountability, and to others.

This isn't to say we don't have to answer to ourselves, but if we're not imbued with a sense of morality, right and wrong, and a belief that judgement from a higher power will decide our fate.

I think it would be much easier for people to yield to harmful temptations without considering whether it's right or wrong.

I do not believe we are inherently good. We must be taught to be good, and to have the belief there will be a price to pay for evil or wrongdoing. Believing in God gives us a foundation for goodness, and a conscience.

I too know atheists and don't judge them because of it. Some are relatives whom I love. It's their choice, not mine. Neither would I reject them. What they believe is none of my business.

I do judge activist atheists who would eliminate my right to recognize and celebrate my beliefs without interference from them.

Overall, I think when a society becomes Godless, the morally weakest amongst us can cause the society harm in that they are most likely to excuse evil or wrong behavior, and even justify it.

There is no longer good or evil, or right and wrong, there is only a gray area which can be compromised to make a wrongdoing seem justified with excuses, psychological explanations, and ultimately result in acceptance.

When it becomes easy for someone to say publicly, she would like to watch Rush Limbaugh die, or to celebrate Tony Snow's death, our society has become dulled to what is right.

It has become only what is legal, illegal, or Constitutional. Right and wrong is becoming irrelevant.

The US, is in danger of sliding into a more uncivilized, undisciplined nation IMO. Anything goes, and if it's talked to death, justified and excused, it becomes accepted. I think this parallels a lack of spiritual awareness and a lack of faith in God.

Our founders did not intend a secular society, they intended a secular government, which in real terms means no Church of America, as opposed to the Church of England.

Pris

Anonymous said...

Sorry, I don't know why my comment posted twice.

Pris

Mustang said...

Here is an excellent discussion about religion in America. It is well worth a moment of your time.

Z said...

Beamish, Karen's right; You couldn't NOT be in Hitler Youth in those days in the town in which Ratzinger lived.

SAM! You don't really believe that I'm shooting for an all-Christian America just because I think Atheists ought to live their lives and leave us alone to live our faith-filled lives, do you?
Do you not agree that taking God OFF of public buildings, etc etc, is a little extreme? It's GOD, not CHRIST in most situations, anyway. Let me know...thanks

Pris, it's NOT a Catholic issue and I'm sorry I used the POpe's words to bring it up, but when I saw what he'd said, I thought it would be a good conversation for Sunday Faith Blog... You make an excellent distinction about Secular SOCIETY vs Secular GOVERNMENT, thanks for that!

Karen, thanks so much for the information. It's great to get all the opinions here and to get information from people like you who've studied this carefully and meaningfully. "at the point of a gun"...you can't know that stuff unless, well, you KNOW! :-)

Linda, I sure wouldn't....xx

Janie Lynn said...

Pris said what I believe better than I could -

"Overall, I think when a society becomes Godless, the morally weakest amongst us can cause the society harm in that they are most likely to excuse evil or wrong behavior, and even justify it."

We, as God's children, need direction.

Sam Huntington said...

Miss Z … you have me confused. When did I criticize anything you wrote? I thought you invited a discussion about secularism.

Anonymous said...

Hi Z, I know. I think it's a great post.

The fact that the Pope said it makes him the messenger, and good for him. What he said can apply to any country or secular society.

I was picking up on, in general, others here, who honed in on Catholicism. Not as a criticism, but as a clarification as I see it.

Sorry my comment posted twice. Good grief, I was wordy enough without the double whammy!

Pris

Anonymous said...

"We, as God's children, need direction."

Janie, thank you, and yes we do need direction.

Pris

FairWitness said...

Hi Z, if the warning of secularism and atheism leading to Nazism had come from some other religious leader it would be received more seriously. The Holy Roman Catholic church has done so much damage by their duplicitous covering up of pedophile priests, it's had to take the Pope seriously. The evil done to all of humanity in the name of the Catholic church also leaves a cynical suspicion in my mind.

I did not feel this way about Pope John Paul II. I deeply admired that man and believe he was a messenger from God. I suppose I don't know much about Pope Benedict, but I find some of his views lacking and callous.

I don't know that going to a Protestant country like England and making such statements will do anything to call anyone home to the church. I find it in very bad form.

LASunsett said...

//Our founders did not intend a secular society, they intended a secular government,//

Herein lies the crux of the matter.

Anonymous said...

beamish, the pope is condemning the nazis, so isn't the statement that he was in the hitler youth to his credit? he involuntarily was in the hitler youth but managed not to get brainwashed. bravo, boniface.

not to gloss over the molestation thing, but i don't share the same antipathy for the catholic church you seem to have. i think christians in cuba probably have some appreciation for the catholic church.

tio

Anonymous said...

FW, if other religious leaders had said what the Pope said, that would be equally received, but they didn't. The Pope did.

To my mind, it's the message which matters, and I believe it's genuine. If there are millions of people who will listen, then his mission is accomplished.

Isn't that what really matters?

Pris

FairWitness said...

Pris, you make a valid point, the issue is the imposition of a Godless society by atheists and secularists and the evil that can result, like Nazism. And you're right; our Founding Fathers intended the separation of Church and State, not the end of religion. I just wish the Catholic church had done the right thing and turn in pedophile priests and aid in their prosecution.

I resent the bullying of the the secular left who have destroyed much of what was decent and honorable in American society. I hope we can restore it some day in the future.

Karen Howes said...

Z, thanks. I've spent a lot of time trying to debunk the "Hitler's Pope" myth-- which, interestingly, didn't come about till the 60's. The KGB was actually behind it, according to one of their Romanian spies.

Forgot to add that not only did Pope Benedict CHOOSE to join the HY, he deserted.

Craig and Heather said...

not to gloss over the molestation thing, but i don't share the same antipathy for the catholic church you seem to have.


tio,

Z has expressed her desire that there be no Catholic bashing on her site. And, I won't presume to speak for him, but Beamish did leave a comment on a thread at my blog a while back, explaining his perspective.

We ended up discussing via e-mail, but you are welcome to read his opening statement. It might help explain the antipathy

http://onmysoapbox2.wordpress.com/2010/05/27/theology-matters-a-simple-way-to-track-doctrinal-error/#comments

Karen Howes said...

Oopse meant to say, "not only did he NOT choose to join the HY..."

Karen Howes said...

Fair Witness,

"The evil done to all humanity in the name of the Catholic Church?" Like what? Granted, there HAS been evil done by Catholics, including priests and bishops, but do you really think the GOOD the Church has done doesn't outweigh it?

And sorry, but England, for centuries a Catholic country before Horny Henry decided he wanted a new wifey, isn't even Protestant anymore. It's secular, so they really needed to hear the message.

Z said...

Sam, NO! I didn't think you criticized ME, but you certainly can any time you want :-)
But, from your previous comment, I did think you meant that we should only honor a secular society and we SHOULD take God out of the public square. No?
Maybe I'm misreading you. If so, I'm so sorry. I'm grateful for your comments, as usual, and would like a continuing discussion on this...

KAREN...I've spent years trying to convince people Hitler wasn't a LUTHERAN (or Christian, for that matter!). I've been told he spoke on the steps of a Lutheran Church, so he's Lutheran...honestly, i have. As IF!
Let's face it, he was probably BORN to a Christian family, but what Christian with a Christian heart could do anything remotely like what he did!?
I can only imagine why you've boned up on the facts of the Catholic church (tho, for some reason I thought you were Orthodox?)

tio, good point about Ratzinger not buying the message AND, as Karen points out, he deserted, too.
He's written all about that..

Pris, that's what I've been trying to say; it's the MESSAGE, not the messenger, though I do admire his courage in having said what he did in this article.

Z said...

FairWitness..yes, I do hope we can restore it. I think we can. We don't want to push our faith on anyone, we just want the America which functioned better when we were more observant, before academics got too smart for God and started teaching Him out of our kids, too.
And, please...don't ANYBODY tell me that if they really believed, they'd not have lost it. Don't even try...:-)

Major said...

"Mr. Ratzinger"

Beamish with all due respect...show some of the same. How about some equal time for the real bastards....Rauf and all the other fascist islamists POS's?

Major

Karen Howes said...

Z, Hitler wasn't Lutheran? Well, thanks for clearing that up for me. ;-) Just kidding... can't believe anyone would think he was-- or any type of Christian!

I'm Byzantine rite Catholic, btw.

Ducky's here said...

I would like Beamish to give some indication of why he feels there is antisemitism in the Catholic Worker movement.

Dorothy Day was quite forceful in her rejection of antisemitism so I would like to have Beamish give a little evidence. It would help reverse the belief that years of listening to heavy metal has rotted most of his brain tissue.

Kudos though, z, the anti-Catholicism is less than usual.

Ducky's here said...

God our Creator,
your servant Dorothy Day exemplified the
Catholic faith by her conversion,
life of prayer and voluntary poverty,
works of mercy, and
witness to the justice and peace
of the Gospel.

May her life inspire people
to turn to Christ as their Savior and guide,
to see his face in the world’s poor and
to raise their voices for the justice
of God’s kingdom.

We pray that you grant the favors we ask
through her intercession so that her goodness
and holiness my be more widely recognized
and one day the Church may
proclaim her Saint.

We ask this through Christ our Lord.

Amen.

beamish said...
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beamish said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
beamish said...

Karen,

But POPE BENEDICT does not deserve criticism for having belonged to the Hitler Youth. That was mandated for adolescent German boys.

Mr. Ratzinger's active participation with the Hitler Youth had him serving alongside German soldiers wearing belt buckles engraved with the words "Gott Mitt Uns" - or "God with us." Not exactly an "atheist" slogan.

As for the tired and completely fabricated idea that Pope Pius XII collaborated with the Nazis, please do some research. Not Hitler's Pope by Rabbi David Dalin would be a good start. The concordat you mention was signed literally at the point of a gun.

Reality is niether tired nor fabricated. The Nazi-Vatican Concordat was a agreement signed between the Vatican and the Nazi regime in 1933, well before Hitler was pointing guns at anyone besides Jews who as a matter of ecclesiological principle were of course enthusiastically persecuted by the religion of Catholicism for centuries prior to the rise of Nazism. Eugenio Pacelli, who was a "bishop" in the Catholic religion before he was appointed to the hubristic and blasphemous title of "Vicar of Christ" (replacement of Christ) and changed his stage name to "Pius XII" actively pursued concordats with many countries, attempting to restore diplomatic recognition for the Vatican which had been lost since really the Treaty of Westphalia and the emergence of nation states in Europe. The concordat with the Nazis was never "forced at gunpoint" and was actually an accomplished goal desired by the Vatican itself. Encouraging the "Catholic Center Party" to caucus with the Nazis in the Reichstag to elect Hitler as Chancellor was a large part of the politics involved in uniting Jew-hating religionists with Jew-hating national socialists. The concordat was repayment for bringing Hitler to power.

The "Action Française," a left-wing, anti-capitalist proto-fascist organization within the religion of Catholicism that traces back to the traditionally Catholic anti-Semitic episodes of the Dreyfus Affair in French history was revitalized by Eugenio Pacelli ("Pope Pius XII") during World War II and operated "ratlines" to assist Nazis escape prosecution for war crimes to the asylum of their fellow left-wingers in Juan Peron's Argentina.

Did my research miss something?

Or did yours?

Z said...

Karen..ah, Byzantine, maybe that's why my mind went to ORTHODOX.
I was raised in the Armenian Orthodox Church and love the Catholic rites, the incense, the beauty of the service, etc.
Obviously, there are differences, but I think the Catholic service is VERY beautiful.
I 'went Lutheran' because my husband was German (hard to say "was" still...I've felt him very near me tonight, unusually so)...anyway, most people don't understand that Luther was NOT anti Catholic, he just wanted to get rid of indulgences and some of the 'business' of the Vatican, etc.
Our "high" Lutheran service is very liturgical and I love it...I play piano (and organ a bit) and I was choir director and organist/pianist for almost 2 years at our church and it's like playing the music of the Orthodox services...

beamish said...

Z,

Let's face it, he [Hitler] was probably BORN to a Christian family, but what Christian with a Christian heart could do anything remotely like what he did!?

Hitler was born into Catholicism, and served as an altar boy. Christianity never entered the equation.

Z said...

Ducky, I'm trying. I have NEVER been anti-Catholic here, I'm not anti-Catholic..I think you know that, and I'm hoping the bashing dies down real quick...like NOW.
Frankly, I wish you had more (or maybe SOME) respect for Protestants.

Christ died and the curtain tore so we could pray directly to Him........no intercessors.

There was an amazing Protestant woman named Amy Carmichael who lived in India....talk about a life of physical pain, deprivation, utter selflessness, good deeds and true faith......

Beamish, I don't think anybody's suggesting there weren't ties between the Vatican and Nazis.......we're talking Ratzinger here and I believe everyone's right about him and Hitler Youth.

Z said...

Beamish...ugh.
But, thanks for the "Not Lutheran, CATHOLIC" correction. I used to get mighty beat up at FPM trying to tell people HE WAS NOT LUTHERAN OR CHRISTIAN!

beamish said...

I would like Beamish to give some indication of why he feels there is antisemitism in the Catholic Worker movement.

Well, the fact that its membership today is comprised mostly of Catholics does raise the first red flag.

Whatever opposition its founders may have had to anti-Semitism withered away as it became amenable to left-wing "social justice" theories and Marxism, with all the anti-Semitic baggage that carries. This would not conflict with the religion of Catholicism's institutional anti-Semitism. Catholicism itself did not remove anti-Semitic slurs from its catechism until 1962, nearly twenty years after it assisted many of its parishioners escape prosecution for war crimes in the Holocaust.

In 2004, when Muslim terrorists attacked the schoolchildren of Beslan in Russia, despite that attack having nothing to do with either Israel or Jews, an editorial which appeared in L'Observatore the Vatican's state-run newspaper, blamed Israel for the attack, and had no condemnation for either Chechnyan Muslims, Islam, or the Russian military which has bombed the shit out of Chechnya far worse than Israel has ever smited its Arab enemies.

It's clear many pre-Vatican II Catholics are still engrained in the old catechism, including much of the Vatican's leadership heirarchy today.

Your question seems to be "since when were Catholics anti-Semitic."

The answer is "the 4th Century."

beamish said...

figures, don't it?

Z said...

Beamish: Okay. So, what do you think....Ratzinger didn't know doctrine and kissed it..or Catholic doctrine does NOT say that kissing the koran means he's turning from Christ in this kiss, OR Ratzinger's really a muslim?

am turning in.............see ya

beamish said...

For the record, I do not "bash Catholicism." I merely remain unconvinced that polytheistic religion has any association with the religion of Christianity that precedes its origins by over 3 centuries.

Craig and Heather said...

Sorry Beamish,

I guess I'm the one to connect your name with Catholic bashing.

I personally don't see the sharing of unpleasant information to be "bashing", if it's true. Was referring to the term others have used when a particular religion is spoken against--and the fact that Z has expressed a desire that it not be done on her site.

H

Z said...

I have some Catholic readers and I don't mind theological discussions but don't like it going too far; I'm hoping everybody will put their feet in the shoes of others and know instinctively when the going's gone too far.

thanks!

beamish said...

Z,

Okay. So, what do you think....Ratzinger didn't know doctrine and kissed it..or Catholic doctrine does NOT say that kissing the koran means he's turning from Christ in this kiss, OR Ratzinger's really a muslim?

That's Karol Wojtyła, who went by the stage name "Pope John Paul II" during his tenure as "Christ's replacement on Earth."

That's said, given the prominence Wojtyla had in the Catholic religion at the time that photo was taken, it's rather unlikely he'd ever encountered Christian theology enough to know that Jesus was holy and divine and that he himself was not, and certainly not His replacement on Earth.

Keep in mind the iconic symbol of Catholicism is a dead Jewish victim of the Roman Empire's preferred method of capital punishment.

As for Wojtyla or Ratzinger being Muslim, that's an intriguing question. One of Catholicism's key differences with actual Christianity and other monotheistic faiths is its worship of Mary and thousands of other historical and / or mythological figures as omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent prayer-answering "saints," where Muslims ascribe those god-defining traits to a broken meteoric iron rock mounted in the corner of a wall in Mecca. It's hard to say which theology is more goofy, but if you convert to Islam, at least you can travel to Mecca and kiss your new god right on its surface, if your fellow Muslims don't trample you.

However the similarities between the religion of Catholicism and the sect of Islam known as Shi'a should be pointed out.

Unlike Christianity where the idea of a man claiming to be the successive replacement of Jesus Christ and his voice in the world would be justifiable dismissed, in the religion of Catholicism, that is precisely what is believed of the "Papacy." In Shi'a Islam, leaders claim the title "ayatollah" - or "voice of God."

It's an interesting contrast. Catholicism worships thousands of inanimate objects and has one man claiming to be God's voice on Earth, and Islam worships a single specific inanimate object yet has hundreds of men claiming to speak for it.

beamish said...

I have some Catholic readers and I don't mind theological discussions but don't like it going too far; I'm hoping everybody will put their feet in the shoes of others and know instinctively when the going's gone too far.

A theological discussion / interfaith dialogue between Christianity and Catholicism is bound to turn heated considering the counterfeit and insubstantiable claims Catholicism makes to being a branch of Christianity with an apostolic pedigree.

Though my approach wouldn't be any different even if you Z yourself worshipped Mary and Brigid the Celtic goddess of fire and poetry and other syncretized pagan deities-cum-saints, the main thrust of my argument was not to sidetrack into discussions of the vast unbridgeable differences between the two seperate, unrelated religions of Catholicism and Christianity, but rather to point back at Mr. Ratzinger's hubris in declaring that the Catholic-sponsored Nazis he served with were actually "atheists."

My main bitch is with attempts to revise history.

beamish said...

Major,

(sorry I missed your comment earlier)

"Mr. Ratzinger"

Beamish with all due respect...show some of the same. How about some equal time for the real bastards....Rauf and all the other fascist islamists POS's?

I take it I've upset you for not participating in the name-changing ritual by which Catholics symbolize their belief in the transformation of a man into the "holy" replacement ("Vicar") of Christ on Earth as part of the ancient Roman Empire's office of the "Pontifex Maximus" held by the god-emperor Julius Caesar.

While I do understand that the Papacy has an "apostolic" lineage all the way back to Julius Caesar's combining the syncretic outreach of the Pontifex Maximus office with his position of Roman's god-emperor scheme, I do not believe Julius Caesar or any of the "Pontifex Maximus-es" that have come after him were gods, or "vicars / replacements of Christ."

It is not disrespectful to call a pagan by his birth name, save perhaps for the primitive and superstitious occult belief that changing one's name guards oneself from being controlled by demons. Be that as it may, I can not in good conscience refer to Mr. Ratzinger by his alias knowing that doing so entails the baggage of participating in a blasphemous rejection of Christianity to soothe the collective ego of a personality cult that has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity whatsoever.

As for Rauf, how do you further belittle and ridicule a man that believes his deity can't acknowledge or hear his worshipful prayers unless they are precision aimed at a meteorite in Mecca 5 times a day?

Z said...

Beamish, yes, I DO have Catholic readers and, as much as you show your contempt for Ducky when he bashes Protestants, I'd like to reiterate my request, whatever you consider Catholicism. Thanks so much.

Heather...YOU connected Beamish with Catholic Bashing?
:-)

Craig and Heather said...

Z,

Heather,You're the one who's connected Beamish with Catholic bashing?
fascinating, particularly considering my comments to him these last two years on the subject, including those here.





I meant that although others have previously taken issue with what he said, I think I was the one who used the term Catholic bashing and Beamish's name together on this particular thread. Specifically my comment to tio @ 5:01.

As Beamish and I started to engage in such discussion here previously, I recall that you stepped in and said to take it elsewhere. We did, and there is a related statement on my site, made by him, concerning his perspective.

What I was trying to say to tio is that I remembered how you feel about the touchy nature of this type of discussion and was offering him a chance to read something of what has already been said offsite. Does that make sense?

I wasn't intending to insult you or beamish or the intelligence of your readers or any Catholic individual who visits this site. Perhaps I succeeded in all of those areas, but it certainly was not my intention.

Heather

Z said...

For goodness sake, how did you insult anybody? NO, you haven't. I don't believe you'd do that intentionally.
thanks

beamish said...

Z,

Well Ducky is 3 things I dislike - leftist, Catholic, and insatiably homosexual, so he's always going to draw my ire and rebuke.

But I feel by the theological differences and contrasts, from number of gods worshipped on down, that Catholicism and Christianity are two different religions entirely.

Anonymous said...

Since most of your fellow bloggers here are American, Z, I'm surprised that the sins of Catholicism are pointed to in Europe rather than right in your own country. Has the question of involvement in undermining the country been contributed to by the Catholic Church in a big way? Evidence strongly suggests it has.

Before Lincoln became President he defended a Catholic priest (Father Chiniquy) who had been accused by his superiors in the Church of violating its sacred image by his teaching and behavior. The lawyer he hired to defend himself against the charges of a criminal nature was Abraham Lincoln.

When Lincoln became President he became aware of a plot against him, and the information was indeed proven true when he was assassinated. At least one of those involved in the plot was assisted in hiding from justice by escaping to Canada and being hidden in Catholic parishes around Montreal, before he was able to escape to Europe and the Middle East. That man was ultimately captured and returned to America where he was tried and found guilty in the plot to assassinate Lincoln. He was John Surratt.

Ignatius Loyola didn't found the "Society of Jesus" (The Jesuits) to be meekly passive in advancing the cause of Catholicism, but to be aggressively malevolent against those perceived to be standing in the way of its advance.

Would the Rights of Man, the ideas the the individual life is sacrosanct, as envisioned by the Founding Fathers of the United States of America, in contrast with the tribal collective be considered something which would stand against the advance of Catholicism? I think it would. And I think this is the larger war being waged today against those founding principles. Against those founding principles stand many enemies embracing collectivism ... including the environmentalists calling for population reduction and control — to "save the planet", of course.

Waylon

Z said...

beamish.."insatiably homosexual" is kind of a tough one to claim, don't you think? We know he stands up for two men marrying, etc. (I say it that way because it sounds even MORE dumb than GAY MARRIAGE)..but...really, beamish :-)

Waylon; I'm not sure if that Surrat/Catholic thing is a coincidence or not; If some nutty Christians are so silly as to have sanctuary cities today, maybe that's the same ridiculous thinking which prompted them hiding Surrat; hiding someone just because he was in trouble? But, you're implying they could have been getting back at Lincoln, obviously. Well, that's fascinating to say the least, and something none of us had ever heard of, I'm sure.

Obviously, the problems of Catholics in Europe were more huge than here...inquisitions, etc.

Today, (I just heard it from Imus this morning), they still say "that's as nutty as thinking the election of JFK would have made him push Catholicism on this country.."

Funny that the leftwingers would say they'd think Palin would push her Protestantism on America when one could hardly say the kennedy family didn't wear their faith on their sleeves, huh, come to think of it?!

Craig and Heather said...

I'm surprised that the sins of Catholicism are pointed to in Europe rather than right in your own country.

Catholicism has a much longer history in Europe, for sure.
As the face of any religion changes, it can be helpful to look past the multitude of externals and trace back to origins and note whether core aspects have changed over the years.

H

Anonymous said...

Yes, the "old world" has a much longer history that the "new world". I was just pointing out that there are evils committed in the new world that are noteworthy, and committed by those who have committed many atrocities in the old world.

Waylon

Craig and Heather said...


I was just pointing out that there are evils committed in the new world that are noteworthy, and committed by those who have committed many atrocities in the old world.


Point taken.

What I was thinking by way of addition is that it is interesting to look deeper than cultural/geographical alterations and compare current teachings and core practices of a religion to it's earlier counterpart to see how closely they relate.

As one who tends to get easily distracted by peripheral details, I've found this has really helped me to stay focused when looking at different religions.



H

Anonymous said...

Heather, That sounds like a more complex topic to discuss than I will have time for right now. I have to go out soon, but if I think of something intelligent to add, I'll get back to you.

Waylon

Craig and Heather said...

No problem, Waylon.

Hope you have a good day.

H

beamish said...

"insatiably homosexual" is kind of a tough one to claim, don't you think? We know he stands up for two men marrying, etc. (I say it that way because it sounds even MORE dumb than GAY MARRIAGE)..but...really, beamish :-)

Not really. Even the way Ducky votes reveals he likes taking it in the ass from the government.

Besides, he's from Massachussetts, which is where at least 6.5 million of America's 7.3 million gay people live.