Do you remember when people dressed nicely to fly? I do. Have we really come to the point where young women think it's okay to wear F*** on their T shirts and expect to travel on a plane, or very, very low cut tops, or such low slung pants on men that underwear's sticking out 4"? (or, for that matter, that a woman blogger types F*** on her blog and nobody gives it a second thought?!)
Is it the airlines' faults for asking people to cover up or taking them off a plane for really questionable attire?.........or our fault for raising immoral, rude people?
Man.
end of (f'ing) rant :-)
z
60 comments:
I always make sure my thong does not show beneath my lederhosen. Sorry, just made myself wince. Airlines booting folks for showing booty does seem contradictory considering the various stages of undress they demand at the TSA security checkpoint. As for the expetive on the shirt, they may need to bring in a hand writing expert to clear their own agents.
Society has degenerated to the point where there is no where else to go to create "shock."
"Freedom of speech" has come to mean something quite different from what was intended.
Base is the new norm.
Few women and fewer men are woman or man enough to control their language, and fewer understand why they should.
"Dress" has become a joke...just visit any mall. You'll see body parts you didn't know bodies had.
Believe it or not, we're having problems in the homeschool group I teach with two of the girls wearing very, very low cut tops. What drives me crazy is that the mother of these girls actually defends their daughters' slut wear.
And it IS slut wear!
Believe me, I'm no prude. I have a few tops that I'd never wear when teaching, but I will wear them to car shows. :^)
Anyway, for the first time ever, this year we in the homeschool administration have established a strict dress code. I may lose students over this. **sigh**
Z, you have ventred where few are willing to go. It seems to me that the sixties began the distruction of culture. We no longer practice good manners. We have and show no respect for ourselves in term of dress and grooming and, therefore, we show no respect for others. Conilized behavior only exist, if it still exists, among the elite. Is that an accident?
Why are you trying to dress better than the rest of us? You some kind of elitist snob?
Now get down and SHOW us your booty, so that we can "share" some obscenity and afterwards exclude all those unwilling to sign our "pact of Gyges."
Be authentic girl, just like the REST of us....
...actin' all white 'n stuff.
Get WITH it, girl!
1st world problem.
It's Saturday morning.
Kids watching TV across the land I imagine.
I flip though the channels and see something, then it goes to a commercial for a sitcom:
A woman sits on a man's lap in a bar and says
"What's that?"
to which he replies,
"A miracle of modern science, which if it lasts longer than four hours, I should see a doctor."
There's no one to sue.
There's a culture in the sewer.
There is only one recourse, and that is moral renewal.
This will lead to disgust and shame at such nonsense.
I'm going to call bull, Ed. No ad buyer would schedule a penis pill ad at that time slot. Doesn't make economic sense.
They'll be selling the kids on a sugar shock or some toy.
The problem isn’t that someone actually produced these “sitcoms” … even if I haven’t seen one that I found humorous. No, the problem is that such filth hasn’t outraged most Americans. The problem is that anyone is watching them at all. We can assign this problem to poor parenting —child abandonment by parents —single mothers who got that through their Flukish behavior who used a TV set as a day-care surrogate. The filth you see at the mall is beyond comprehension.
Duck, It was an ad for a sitcom, not a penis pill.
By calling bull, are you implying that I would lie to make a comment on a blog post?
I literally meant "It's Saturday morning."
I don't think the world is going to come to an end because some organizations have a sense of propriety.
It interesting that when I started flying as part of my job, there were unspoken dress codes for business people, and traveling in general.
Then I went to the west coast, specifically to San Diego. Somehow, flip-flops and halter tops didn't seem as fashionable to me as to the women, there. That was in the 1980's, and the ugly clothes cancer has spread eastward since.
If you want to go naked, visit a nude beach. If you want to show your underwear, become a model. Brazier ads always get my attention. I think they're hot.
Oh, wait! I meant brassiere...
We're all sisters under the skin, now!
Obscenity is a necessary element in maintaining unity in a diverse, multicultural nation. Power and maintenance of the dominant idiology CANNOT function w/o it.
Sam, I guess the outcry would come from people who don't watch it, so therefore are unaware of it.
We've been told so often,"Don't like it? Turn it off!", and we do.
BUT IT IMPACTS US!
It bleeds over into the general culture.
NObody, including myself, should know who Ron Jeremy is.
Bob, when I flew for the gov't (passenger) I wore cutoffs, sandals and a tank top.
One of the other team chiefs extolled his team to dress well, not like me.
He was right.
I'm no prude, just ask my wife and my friends, but t shirts with vulgarity or obscene pictures are beyond the pale in a polite society
This quote from a passenger in the article sums it up:
"It's not always clear what's appropriate."
That's an adult saying that. I think it's pretty simple: No vulgarity and keep your T & A to yourself, but then, I'm a simple guy.
"No vulgarity and keep your T & A to yourself"
SF...why is that so hard for many, many people to understand?
When did people both stop recognizing what WAS vulgar and decide it's even okay to wear it?
Wearing a T shirt with F*** on it is like walking down an airplane aisle screaming F*** F*** F*** F*** F***, is it not?
DaBlade...you crack me UP! :-)
Joe...a HUGE problem with our culture today is people feel SHOCK is necessary for the 'next thrill'...do you know I even considered it when I titled my post here? There are many times I'd like to post something knowing the shock value will get lots of comments, but I don't, 99% of the time, because I don't want to sink to the mainstream media's tactics to get readers. THat's the truth, I hate to admit it.
Where does Western society GO after what's going on now with 12 yr old girls 'doing' little boys (ifyouknowwhatimeanandithinkyoudo) in school buses? What does Miss America wear after the tiny bikinis they wear now...in 10 years?
WHen women are walking around using language I have to admit I use sometimes, too, though I HATE it,...where does gentility enter into things again?
AOW...We have a program called REALITY CHECK presented to our high schoolers and they hear real people talk about real problems, physical and emotional, caused by promiscuity when they were young...one mother suggests her daughter shouldn't be subjected to that because, "after all, young girls and boys do experiment"...yup. Where does society go with THAT?
ConservativesonFire.. "conilized"? I don't know what that means.
But, yes...I think the Sixties started all of this, too.
And suddenly everybody needs to be more comfortable than dignified. People come on planes in sweats.
But, I have to admit to you...you mention the elite; I never EVER see sweats on international flights. Mr Z traveled so much, and had such a ridiculously high amount of sky miles, that we took First Class or Business everywhere, always, and people dressed quite well in those situations. Good point, ConF.
Absolute... :-)
Ed, the things said on sitcoms are amazing. And the situations, too. No wonder our kids are so lost when it comes to behaving in healthy ways for themselves.....they hear (sometimes)"you should behave and make good choices" but they've heard, all their lives, quite the opposite in every sitcom they see.
Z - I am with ya on this one.
Although people should be able to wear whatever they want - they should also have the good taste to not wear things that they KNOW will offend others. What are they thinking? Offending others just for the sake of it. That's what it has to be.
I say have some common decency and care about what is proper and what isn't.
Sue "I say have some common decency and care about what is proper and what isn't."
You encapsulated the whole thing; when did common decency become uncommon?
Don't parents teach their kids anymore?
Here's the real problem: there are people who don't understand that this says a lot more about society than just the word F***, right?
"Obscenity is a necessary element in maintaining unity in a diverse, multicultural nation. Power and maintenance of the dominant idiology CANNOT function w/o it"
FJ, if you're serious in stating this, I must say, it's absolutely ridiculous.
Since when don't people have the discipline to speak without uttering obscenities?
Those who do fill their communication, or lack of it IMO, with obscenities, are either lazy or have no respect for others, like me, who have no need to speak that way.
For you to imply that it's necessary to have unity, or power, is foolish. I've made many friends of all backgrounds, and I've done it without stooping to gutter speech.
Furthermore, one's ideology has nothing to do with obscenities.
Sam, you're so right. When parents don't set the proper example for their children, and don't let them know that obscenities will not be tolerated in their home, those parents are the problem.
The lack of modesty and speaking with gutter language, is a sign that our society will tolerate almost anything, and that they think it's "cool". To me, that's also a sign that these days too many people refuse to grow up.
Oh sure, Pris, it's possible to have a polite friendship with another person without sharing obscenities... but until those obscenities are shared, a deep and abiding friendship is highly unlikely.
I have a few black colleagues with whom I always felt a bit "uncomfortable". Not until we capable of exchanging racist jokes about ourselves AND one another did I really believe that we were really "friends" and not merely polite co-workers/colleagues.
Intimacy, IMO, is impossible w/o obscenity.
Of course, when people perceive themselves to be operating on different power levels of authority, this "familiarity" is often discouraged, as between the "officers" and enlisted".
And one's ideology has EVERYTHING to do with obscenities, as it takes an ideology to justify "good" people doing "bad things". To dehumanize the "other" and treat them "badly".
...and you can then go on and STOP using verbal obscenities and still maintain a close personal friendship... but to establish and "test" it... obscenity is required.
...shared solidarity and indignation against the authorities in power.
...and so when you get all dressed up for the plane trip and sit in first class... me in my sweat pants and "Free Mandela" tee shirt sitting in "Coach" get the distinct impression that you think you're better than me...
Where's the symbolic sharing of "class solidarity" and how do we "broach" the symbolic "barrier"?
Flatter me... and I'll assume you're being "patronizing".
...but give me a sign that you don't believe yourself to exist on a higher social level... then I might actually talk to you and begin to "trust" you a bit.
Unemployment after 4 years of Keynesian economics is still over 7%. If Americans are out of work so will be the President.
US debt is over 14 trillion dollars and counting. He tripled the debt. We had a party and our children will have to pay.
We are still fighting an undeclared war in the Middle East with American men and women on the ground taking casualties with no end in sight. This really upsets me. It is not Obama’s fault but America should only fight declared wars, because undeclared wars are a never ending battle.
The budget is not yet balanced and 60 percent of the money goes to entitlements.
Change did not come.
Obama looks exhausted. As a leader he physically looks like life is a chore. He looks too skinny and will lose some votes based on his look. I know it is superficial but people vote on this.
Inflation is picking up. He is allowing the currency to be inflated.
Health care is not fixed. Not his fault. The Republicans only allow a watered down version to get ,through. Yet on the other hand, my thinking is there are better ways to fix health care than the Obama plan, such as a negative income tax, free market and light regulation such as not allowing people to be dropped for pre-existing conditions.
The housing market is far from recovered.
China is rising faster than the USA.
US jobs are going overseas.
Pro family Americans question Obama’s core values.
He accepted the Nobel peace prize for nothing.
Still no real business experience, only an academic.
Liberals feel betrayed as he did not follow through with transforming America with a liberal vision. Too much compromise.
Increased taxes.
Half the country is conservative.
After the initial honeymoon with international leaders, the global community respects him only for his title rather than his ability to lead.
Tea party.
Herman Cain, the conservative Obama.
His party turns against him.
2012 is the apocalypse?
Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, Alex Jones, Drudge Report, National Review, Freeman, Greg, Mankiw, American Thinker
Wikileaks did not help the American image.
Jimmy Carter lite. He was elected to restore trust in the office of the Presidency, but ineffective as a leader.
Does not understand economics. Never read the classics from Adam Smith to Hayek to Milton Friedman. Filled with a mix of Keynesian and populous ideas.
Too many vacations at critical times.
Too many bailouts of big US businesses.
Special interest president.
Mysterious past from which passport he used to got to Pakistan to college records, to fake social security number and drug use.
Questionable lavish trips for his family
Some surprises will come out right before the 2012 election.
Expansion of government and unaffordable entitlement programs.
US military is being poorly run. Valuable resources are being wasted.
Well rehearsed for speeches, but lacks charisma.
Was basically an anti-Bush blame candidate. But after 4 years of failed policies it will be hard to blame Bush.
Continues setting presidential golf records.
Putin embarrasses him.
An Asian dictator embarrasses him.
A Middle Eastern Emir embarrasses him.
Chavez makes him look bad.
Lacks support in the congress which is a reflection of the sentiment of the US. If reelected he will be a 4 year lame duck president.
Rebuilding Iraq, but not our roads and schools.
Freedom is decreasing and the constitution has taken a back seat to government central control, for example the TSA or potential regulation of the Internet.
Too many people drawing metaphors to 1984 (the book, not the year). Big brother is alluded to in many headlines.
Comedians will begin to roast him and the youth will lose respect for him.
Food, healthcare, education and oil increases or at least agri-inflation, have you been to the grocery store lately?
Illegal immigration problem never solved.
Drug problem never solved or not even a dent in it.
Violent crimes are many fold higher than other nations.
America is slipping more as an economic leader and relative standard of living is in decline.
Blatant unrepentant globalist, putting America second.
Minor irritants for the US citizens like body scanners more paperwork and forms.
States are in crisis and the is only the beginning and Obama has done little to help.
Latest census shifted the political balance in swing states.
Was not a landslide in the first election.
Trade deficit is worst.
Many people I personally know that crossed lines have told me it was a mistake.
Lacks the combination of vision and ability to implement, like Ronald Reagan. He talks about united the parties instead of doing it.
America is too divided.
The U.S. trade deficit with China increased by 26% last year.
Independent voter and minor parties are shifting their alliances away from the Democrats.
Obama is getting too much advice from George Clooney.
South Park will produce some parodies that will hit home at Obama’s weaknesses.
Substance wins over symbolism the second time around.
Double dip recession at the end of 2012 could derail any chance of an Obama victory.
Obama is no Roosevelt because opposition to Roosevelt usually conceded for the greater good. The opposite is happening in the USA. The Obama presidency is polarizing the country.
Arizona, Colorado, Ohio, Wisconsin, Louisiana, Missouri, Oregon, Washington ,Michigan, New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Illinois, California, Nevada, are bankrupt and cannot meet their obligatory payments. The last drips of Federal money will expose the dire economic situation of these states.
Majority of the polls currently show an Obama loss in the 2012 election.
Republicans learned from their mistakes and will not elect someone like McCain to represent them again. That is the four pillars of the republicans are: social and religious conservatives, fiscal conservatives, imperialists and war hawks and moderate Republicans who can cross party lines. McCain was a War hawk conservative with some social ideas. Not a combination needed during an economic crisis. You need a fiscal and religious conservative that appeals to moderates. Hawks do not swing elections unless there is a real Peal Harbor.
Exceptions were too high for the first term.
Stagflation.
Florida the key swing state demographically is changing more conservative. Whoever wins Florida will have a good chance at the White House in 2012.
Arizona, Texas, Utah, Georgia and South Carolina all Republican states picked up electorates.
Illinois, Massachusetts, Michigan, New Jersey, New York Pennsylvania all democratic states lost electorates.
It is showdown of Big Government vs the US citizens, I am pulling for the Americans.
Vegas and psychics and predictors of the sort are edging towards a Republican win.
Barack broke the promise of raising taxes for capital gains and dividends for the top percentage of wage earners.
Broken promise of double funding for after school programs.
Centralize lobbying and ethics reporting for US citizens to view, another broken promise.
Phase out exemptions for high earning tax payers. Another broken promise.
Repeal Bush tax cuts for the top earners, another Obama unfulfilled promise.
Obama promised to end income taxes for seniors making less than 50k. This was a huge issue in the sunbelt swing states, Obama did not do this.
A score of other broken promises too many to list. This does not help his credibility.
Is Obama Keynesian or Kenyan? To date there is still some confusion in some people’s minds.
Much of the Hollywood crowd that were his darlings in the 2008 Presidential elections are not as zealous in the 2012 Presidential elections.
Republicans have a real candidate in 2012.
Has an extreme anti-life voting record.
Obama is soft on crime.
Relief for the middle class never materialized and many stimulus injections of cash were temporary and favoring a few rather than the majority who will pay with taxes.
Obama wants a European style social economy which does not fit the American spirit. Obama is not a socialist, rather more follows the French economic model than the American.
Extension of Bush foreign policy, pax America. The sun never sets on the union jack (make the world England), I mean stars and bars.
Unemployment benefits have run out of federal money for chronically unemployed and people underemployed and out of work are looking for new ideas and answers rather than government money and temporary fixes.
Many good ideas proposed in 2008, but few implemented even with a Democratic majority in the congress. It is really hard to be Obama, as there is a lot of political infighting and most of the US money is being consumed my entitlement spending and a pittance is for these new interesting ideas.
Has done nothing to curb the close ties between the military business infrastructure and government spending.
Bailed out Wall Street not Main street. I thought he said things would be different. Most jobs are created by small companies, close to 70% as well as innovation, but the large dinosaurs got the funds.
Alex Conant, a GOP election campaign advisor said President Barack Obama cannot be a bipartisan candidate in 2012, like he was in the last election because American voters know him now as something different. He will lose many center and independent voters.
After 25 years of the Bush and Clinton dynasties, Americans have less tolerance for legacy candidates and more focused on results. That is just because they know someone, no longer is a good reason to reelect them.
Traditionally candidate who spend more money on election bids win. This is a reasonably strong correlation. For example, Democrats spent $956,049,411 in 2008 while the Republicans spent $792,186,627. This is contrast with 2004 where the Republicans spent $875,704,006 and the Democrats spent $710,416,993. It is not just that when a campaign has more money it is an indicator of real sentiment, but money and marketing does influence people. At this point Republicans have the momentum and mount an all out attempt to dethrone Obama in 2012 as they see it as an attempt to save the USA.
Crazy indicators that could mean nothing or something, such height of the Candidates, Obama being 6’1” would lose against Mit Romney at 6’4”. Many of the crazy indicators point to an Obama lose in 2012. Hair also counts, and Obama’s salt and pepper thin hair is no competition for the flowing hair of Sarah Palin’s for example.
I will not vote for him and I usually vote for winners (not always). I have an even better track record with predicting elections. Sometimes I am a sucker for lost causes.
Crudeness offers no benefits to society.
crudeness (language or dress)...it serves to establish a "Symbolic solidarity with the "other"... be it from "fear" OR "desire for acceptance".
...a "symbolic" tribal dress or adopted language "accent".
erratum - Wrong Link above...
I don't agree with Savage's remedies in the link above... merely his characterization of the problem.
...it descends to the "least common denominator" of crudeness, as THAT is a level generally thought to exist "beyond" the control of the power structure/authority figures du jour.
...and allows even the poorest and most ignorant individual the confidence that accompanies authenticity.
In other words, a place where the words, "Let's get real people..." find significance.
Shared profanity offers no benefit to society. If this is what we are striving for, then I'm certain we will always meet that lowest standard.
You've refuted none of my arguments Mustang.
...much like the Queen of Hearts, I will admit.
Lewis Carroll, "Alice in Wonderland"
‘No, no!’ said the Queen. ‘Sentence first — verdict afterwards.’
‘Stuff and nonsense!’ said Alice loudly. ‘The idea of having the sentence first!’
‘Hold your tongue!’ said the Queen, turning purple.
‘I won’t!’ said Alice.
‘Off with her head!’ the Queen shouted at the top of her voice. Nobody moved.
‘Who cares for you?’ said Alice, (she had grown to her full size by this time.) ‘You’re nothing but a pack of cards!’
I remember when people dressed for church, to go out to eat, to fly. I've heard of women getting thrown off a plane for their skirt being too short, for their top being too low, but those are rare instances. And if I remember correctly, they sued.
Since there is no "dress code" I suppose people can dress however they want.
We don't want laws telling us how to dress, so I don't know what the answer is.
Individual businesses can set dress codes, and I think they should.
Debbie
Right Truth
http://www.righttruth.typepad.com
Sharing the obscenity...
If we are looking for a law to govern how we dress, our deportment, how we present ourselves in public, we will find it in the word “morality.” If we present ourselves as moral human beings, others will react to us accordingly. The same is true when people present themselves immorally. One cannot help but form conclusions about people who impale themselves with spikes, have BLEEP tattooed on their foreheads, or who refuse to wear under clothes and don’t mind sharing their genitals with the public. Under these circumstances, these people could be the nicest people one will ever meet —and still have strangers regard them as societal dregs.
Debbie, that's the point, isn't it. Who'd have THOUGHT we'd need dress codes EVER?
Okay..at a cocktail party, you wear cocktail party clothes; there's a code, depending on the age.
etc.
But, in general? Who'd have ever thought we'd have to tell young women not to wear F*** on their T SHIRTS? WHAT??????????
What girl goes around with a 6" cleavage showing? Mostly, it's not even attractive. OK, I'm a woman, so MAYBE some think it IS attractive, but..:-) I mean, there's nothing prettier than a reasonably low cut dressy dress but on a PLANE?
And, by the way....let's talk sexy: isn't sexIER the dress that's fitted, long sleeved and up to the collar bone but PLUUUUNGING down the back? THAT is a gorgeous look and SO sexy. I remember that woman in the Crocodile Dundee films wore a red dress like that in the first film. I think that's why the actor married her after the film was in the can :-)
Re Obscenity.
I have black friends and we talk race very openly....never have we used obscenities to describe our very honest feelings about race in this country.
I understand that there is a certain intimacy of thought that occurs before people are really friends and can "let it all hang out" but why's it have to be obscenity? WHY?
Robert, I agree with you. The problem is that if we present ourselves as moral human beings via our dress these days, we're often looked on as old fashioned dinosaurs.
As a matter of fact, I have friends who are mothers of teen aged girls and there is LITERALLY very little that IS decent in the dress departments these days...it sounds nuts, but it's true!
That's why I'm so much for uniforms at school.
One can be very chic without showing anything immodest...
Why?
Why did Achilles resent Agememnon? Why did Thersites resent Ajax and Achilles? And why did the Trojans resent the Achaens? And why son't YOU appreciate being TOLD what to do?
Power. THAT is why.
Those IN power are "cynical". Those OUT of power, are "kynical". The "INs" define what is considered "obscene". And to communicate and.bond with the OUTS, you need to PROVE that your're "with them". You need to send them a "sign" that you interpret symbols in the SAME way. Do you wear a "do rag"? Then "symbolically", you are an "out". Do you wear a suit? Then "symbolically" you are an "in".
In the 60s, jeans meant that you were a "worker" and NOT an elite. Even the richest kids wore them. Even today's 1% want the other 99% to not think that they are elite snobs. So they dress like gang bangers and ho's.
...and if you don't, well THAT is symbollically saying you WANT to be an IN... a racist, elitist, aristocratic SNOB.
And lets face it, no matter HOW much you deny those feelings, your inability to "share" obscenities PROVES that you can't be "trusted" in the OUT community.
FJ,
I am trustworthy, but I'll not sink to dominating this thread as you so often like to do. I'm not enamored with myself, as you seem to be.
Bye Bye, I'm done.
test
All steps along the path to The Lord of the Flies
I do LOVE myself. That's why I hang around edumacating the Rubes...
A few months ago, or maybe it was last year ;), I walked into the lunchroom at work around 10 AM. There were little black kids in there watching BET I believe, and there was a cartoon on and there was a tune playing. I think it's one of the rap tunes and the lyrics start "Read a book, read a book, read a mother f*g book.........
The little girl that was in there was maybe 4 or 5. Parents sometimes bring their kids to work and they hang in the lunchroom when there's a problem with daycare of the other spouse - whatever the individual situation is.
This is a Long way from a decent society and it continues in the wrong direction at a faster pace as time goes on.
Who is going to 'fix it' ? No one. Only the parents can and most of them have been reduced to overly tattooed ignorant buffoons by the public school system and the media.
One of my ancestors was a man named Thor Turf-Einarsson, who became the Earl of Orkney —better known as Thor Skullspitter and from all accounts, he was a lot of fun at happy hour. Now it seems to me that if we still tolerated men like great-grandfather Thor, it is likely we would still be plagued by people who get tattoos and paint their skins blue, and display their genitals just prior to going into battle. But we would also have an effective way of dealing with such morons, best demonstrated by Thor’s nickname. Split the skull —solve the problem. It was a simpler time.
Achilles? Agamemnon? Ajax? Thersites, you remind me of this article except replace "1988" with "300 BC". (Not that I don't appreciate it.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-mans-popculture-references-stop-at-1988,469/
--big fat tio mike
Thersites said...
I do LOVE myself. That's why I hang around edumacating the Rubes..."
If you mean my readers, take it somewhere else, please. Thanks.
Kid, Lord of the Flies...good one.
And yes, imagine children's programming including that phrase? In the guise of liberal education.."Well we SAY READ A BOOK, what MORE do you want?" geeesh.
you're so right ..it's parents or nothing; and, these days, it's nothing.
Of course, I know a LOT of parents who are terrific parents and care but it's not like the good old days.
Mustang, I know an Einarsson from Iceland :-) maybe you're related!? !!
I just knew you weren't going to say a thing about Karl Rove threatening the life of a sitting US Congressman.
“We should sink Todd Akin. If he’s found mysteriously murdered, don’t look for my whereabouts!” - Karl Rove
beamish, it's REALLY difficult for me to write posts on things I'd never heard.
I googled that and he did say it, jokingly to a group of fundraisers.
You seem to have lost your humor these days, haven't you.
You REALLY think that was a threat to AKin's life? ANd Rove said it in public? :-)
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