Monday, December 2, 2013

The DRAFT: Bring it back?


At this time of Thanksgiving, I’m grateful for the U.S. military — not just for the usual reason that it protects us from our foes but also because it has the potential to save us from ourselves.

As I make my rounds each day in the capital, chronicling our leaders’ plentiful foibles, failings, screw-ups, inanities, outrages and overall dysfunction, I’m often asked if there’s anything that could clean up the mess.
My usual answer is a shrug and an admission that there’s no silver bullet. There are many possibilities — campaign spending limits, term limits, nonpartisan primaries, nonpartisan redistricting, a third party — but most aren’t politically or legally feasible, might not make much of a difference or, as with Harry Reid’s rewriting of Senate rules, have the potential to make things even worse.

But one change, over time, could reverse the problems that have built up over the past few decades: We should mandate military service for all Americans, men and women alike, when they turn 18. The idea is radical, unlikely and impractical — but it just might work. 

There is no better explanation for what has gone wrong in Washington in recent years than the tabulation done every two years of how many members of Congress served in the military.
A Congressional Quarterly count of the current Congress finds that just 86 of the 435 members of the House are veterans, as are only 17 of 100 senators, which puts the overall rate at 19 percent. This is the lowest percentage of veterans in Congress since World War II, down from a high of 77 percent in 1977-78, according to the American Legion. For the past 21 years, the presidency has been occupied by men who didn’t serve or, in the case of George W. Bush, served in a capacity designed to avoid combat.
It’s no coincidence that this same period has seen the gradual collapse of our ability to govern ourselves: a loss of control over the nation’s debt, legislative stalemate and a disabling partisanship. It’s no coincidence, either, that Americans’ approval of Congress has dropped to just 9 percent, the lowest since Gallup began asking the question 39 years ago.
Because so few serving in politics have worn their country’s uniform, they have collectively forgotten how to put country before party and self-interest. They have forgotten a “cause greater than self,” and they have lost the knowledge of how to make compromises for the good of the country. Without a history of sacrifice and service, they’ve turned politics into war.

Compulsory military service, as old as Athenian democracy and common in countries such as Israel that live under threat, has been in decline in Western Europe since the end of the Cold War. But an exception, Switzerland, is instructive: On Sept. 22, the Swiss voted 73 percent to 27 percent to keep their conscription army. It has less to do with security than with national identity in a land of 26 cantons and four official languages. The government argued that military service teaches people “how to live and work with compatriots from all regions, all linguistic groups and all social strata,” which “contributes enormously to the national cohesion.”

In Switzerland, the sons of bankers and farmers alike do basic training for several months and then are recalled to service for brief periods. But the structure is less important than the service itself. My former colleague Tom Ricks proposes bringing back the draft in the United States but allowing for a civilian national service option — teaching, providing day care and the like — for those who don’t want to join the military.
There’s no mass movement for mandatory service, but the idea has gained a diverse group of supporters, including retired Gen. Stanley McChrystal and Rep. Charlie Rangel (D-N.Y). Gun-rights groups would cheer an armed citizenry, and an article published by the libertarian Cato Institute argued that compulsory service “can be a pillar of freedom.”

The costs would be huge. But so would the benefits: overcoming growing social inequality without redistributing wealth; making future leaders, unlike today’s “chicken hawks,” disinclined to send troops into combat without good reason; putting young Americans to work and giving them job and technology skills; and, above all, giving these young Americans a shared sense of patriotism and service to the country.
It would take some time, but this new generation of Americans, once again asking what they can do for their country, would undo much of the damage today’s crop of self-interested leaders is doing to our politics.  (end of article)

Z:   Imagine those PUNKS pushing the elderly over and how they might benefit from the military?  They should be the first ones in;  Let's get our kids back to unlearning what they learn at home and school;   that we owe them a living.  Bravo, Mr. Milbank

What do you think?

Z

70 comments:

beakerkin said...

The military does not want the draft. It does not want people who
don't want to be there.

Furthermore, not having the draft allows the military to keep minimum standards. There is the assumption that the military can deal with certain criminal elements. This only works in Hollywood.

That being said, I would like to open up a path for some. Those illegal aliens with high school degrees and no criminal record should be eligible to serve and after two years get a green card
with good conduct.

Z said...

Beak, I love your idea at the end there, and agree with most of what you said above that but am more optimistic than you about what the service can do to PUNKS without enough discipline, hard work and learning self reliance, trusting their brother in arms (who happens, this time, NOT to be a gang member), etc.

I'm eager to hear Marine4 and Mustang's viewpoints on this..or Imp, or anybody else here who's served our country.

I don't expect miracles so I don't think Hollywood has anything to do with it; it's bloody hard work in bootcamp, etc, and I've never heard of a guy NOT shape up in that situation.

I'm not talking about kickin' a kid til he becomes a good soldier; I'm talking about giving the kid the tools to engender self respect in himself again....give him something bigger than himself to live for and perform for.

I'm 1000% up on your idea of illegals getting green cards for service. Bravo, Beak.

Z said...

I LOVE THIS TOPIC and can't wait to get some good conversation going.

Beak, you started it out with a bang! THANKS :-)

Always On Watch said...

I know several students who could benefit from a stint in the military.

One particular student -- no doubt, the LAZIEST young man I've ever seen (and he's been lazy since a young child, never mind how bright he is -- could benefit from being a grunt and learning to do some work. Really. At the rate he's going, he'll likely be admitted to college, but he won't last long because he will not work; instead, he will spend a lot of time looking for shortcuts, procrastinating, and playing online video games.

My cousin did a stint in the USMC. Turned his life around for the better! Miraculous!

Z said...

Always, that's a fantastic testimony...thanks for that part of an important argument/discussion!

Constitutional Insurgent said...

As much as I believe that our society would benefit from having a greater population of veterans, I do not favor a reinstatment of the draft. I have serious concerns about squaring compulsory military service in a society that theoretically sponsors liberty [though that has been so watered down, that it may not make the difference I fear].

A truly professional armed forces, in this era, can only come from a volunteer force. Our society has deteriorated due to consumerism and crass sensationalism, destroying the values and ethics that were once widespread. In the X-Box age, drafteees would be much more of a burden than a benefit.

When GEN William Westmoreland criticized the idea of an all-volunteer military, stating that “he didn’t want to lead an army of mercenaries.” Milton Friedman shot back “Would you rather command an army of slaves?”

Z said...

CI, do you look at bootcamp as slavery?
I certainly see your point about liberty; there isn't much freedom in the service.

The odd thing that might apply here is that most gang members say they join to have A FAMILY, BROTHERS WHO WILL GET THEIR BACK.
Maybe serving in the armed services fills that bill in a healthier way than the streets of NYC or LA might be!

BUT, maybe we should be recruiting in those places instead of a draft; I get your point.

Constitutional Insurgent said...

Z - "do you look at bootcamp as slavery?"

Of course not, literally. But Friedman was making a point. Conscription is untenable in a society that is not widely supportive of the action, or military service in general. I'm not speaking of the notional "yellow ribbon on the back of your car" support, but the actual inclination to serve.

WomanHonorThyself said...

and Lord knows with the traitor in the WH and Iran being empowered we sure will need one Z! Enjoy your day my friend!:-)

-FJ said...

By all means, every Spartan Socialist Republic NEEDS the agoge. It could not function without it.

The2ndAmendment said...


If the Hybrid Progressive/Liberal starts World War 3. This will be equivalent to suspending the Constitution or confiscating firearms. There is no Constitution if Obama starts World War 3 without Congressional approval. It will be time to restore the Rule of Law.
No more shall he Terrorize the World, and Demolish entire Nations, nor enslave the Country through Debt and Bondage.
If he starts world war 3 like he wanted to do in Syria. His reign shall end.

Want to resist the New World Order?

Get all your local gun owners together and make a large banner:

IF YOU WANT TO DRAFT US, COME AND GET US.

They can't fight a war without men, or without Guns..
And while you're at it, stop paying taxes when World War 3 starts.
What are they gonna do, send some drafted Libtard Obama Bedwetters to enFORCE their Unholy and Unconstitutional Mandates? I don’t think that’s gonna fly!

Duckys here said...

Yeah, if the members of Congress were veterans they'd be able to formulate a health insurance structure that efficiently distributes risk without their being bought off by for profit insurers.

Milbank is even dumber than usual in this column.

Duckys here said...

"The costs would be huge. But so would the benefits: overcoming growing social inequality without redistributing wealth ..."

-------
Uh no, Dana you peg the dumb meter with that idiotic statement.

The huge wealth disparity is going to be lessened by the draft? Or maybe I'm misreading what you mean by "social inequality".

Why not suggest national service rather than the military?

Divine Theatre said...

Well...
Forcing people to enter the military to fight and possibly lose their lives to benefit the interests of the bankers? No.
You operate under the assumption that the US government is the only entity that can reap characteristics such as "discipline, hard work and learning self reliance, trusting their brother in arms".
Frankly, this is a band-aid.
Strike at the root. A child's character is pretty much defined by the age of 5 years. An intact family unit would be far more beneficial in the long run. Single and working mothers are the bane of a civilized society.
I would be okay with forcing MIA daddies to serve in order to receive benefits for their offspring at the taxpayer expense.
Wish I had more time to extrapolate but I think you get my point! :)

Andie

JonBerg said...

Z,

I feel that , from a personal point-of-view my Naval service was every bit as beneficial as, subsequently, earning a college degree. I have no doubt that the discipline and cohesiveness learned in the Military are positives. The draft, however, is unlikely to garner support.

Here is one thing that I would NEVER want to see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt7__VyAI28

sue hanes said...

Z - I'm generally against a draft.
As long as we can have a voluntary military I don't see the reason to have a draft.

American Jihad said...

Frankly, I’d be uncomfortable serving along side someone that doesn't want to be and is forced to be there.

Secondly, Obama said no ground troops used in ANY of the WARS THAT HE STARTED, so why the need for a draft.

We are just going to bomb yet another country into the stone age, and murder their leader or president (whoever) .
So, what to do, what to do.
And now I fear we may be opening a Pandora's box in the Middle East with the decision Obama and Kerry made with Iran. .

Why is it that it is always Democrats that want to bring back the draft? Maybe it’s because they know that is the only way liberals will serve?

Z said...

All good input, except that Ducky can't understand a good conversation that maybe gets us to a good conclusion includes all the points Milbank makes.
We don't weed out the stuff we don't like, then discuss.

Andie; sadly, one good part of a draft is saving boys who had no character-building upbringing that put them on a positive track. You can't re-raise kids. We can't force couples to put their children first. More's the pity.

I think SOME KIND OF SERVICE is a good answer. Kids need to understand they're not only living in America to get free college, free healthcare, free help for their illegal friends, etc.,...some kind of service would be a good thing.

Except that doesn't build character, doesn't help them to feel responsible like being in the service does, and ......so much more.

Or, I guess we just pass American kids through the motions...get lousy grades and graduate anyway because the school needs the money, get into a college easier because they're not white even if their grades stink compared to their white buddies, bolster them up because they should feel entitled, like they learn in school.

Am I mixing two subjects? I don't think so.

Z said...

What if we were looking at war?
With nukes, I'm doubting there would be much more "nukes on the ground" warfare, I hope I'm wrong on both counts (war OR nukes) but I don't think so.

So, let's say we have a boots on the ground war coming and need more soldiers...and we haven't enough.

Do we draft then?

JonBerg said...

Andie....

" An intact family unit would be far more beneficial in the long run"

Hey, no argument my friend but how do you mandate "An intact family"? Our society seems to have abandoned that concept, some time ago. The results are on display ubiquitously!

-FJ said...

When you subsidize economic failure in society, one shouldn't be surprised when more failure materializes.

Moral Hazard, thy name is "government'.

Z said...

JonBerg..it sure has abandoned that. I don't know how a healthy society survives without parents at least trying to do the best for their kids.
And, don't forget; we haven't had the kind of unwed mothers until the last few years.
The numbers are supposedly going down on that, but you'd have a hard time convincing me from empirical knowledge.


FJ...Honestly, it DOES feel like Obama's doing just that.
Someone recently said "The scary thing for America is that the real thinkers aren't asking questions."

WHY NOT?

Darryl Issa announcing another senate hearing on something really important like F&F or Solyndra or Benghazi, etc etc etc.. is like code meaning "This, too,will go NOWHERE" WHY? They're finding out incredible stuff that we hear about for a day or so, then we don't hear.

WHY NOT?

JonBerg said...

Z.....

"So, let's say we have a boots on the ground war coming and need more soldiers...and we haven't enough."

Yes and what happens if all of the PC $#!t being foisted upon the Military results in low recruitment interest and/or high attrition? I suppose, however, that as long as our economy is in the tank those aspects won't be too problematic.

Always On Watch said...

I'd really like to get the input from someone who served in the military when the draft was in force and when it wasn't in force. What differences does someone with both experience note?

Right this minute, both Mr. AOW and I are grateful that he was drafted in 1971. Decorate A Vet wouldn't be here at our house making all sorts of improvements to thank Mr. AOW for his service: yard work, creating a walkway to the grill space (so that Mr. AOW can access the grill by using his scooter), creating for us the first driveway this old house has ever had, decorating the outside of the house for Christmas, etc. I'm a tough ol' broad, but I cried this morning when I saw all that these people are doing for us and at no request from us. They learned about Mr. AOW's condition and the help we need via the American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars.

And, yes, these folks helping us out are from veterans' families or veterans themselves -- from all branches of the military. Young veterans who own various businesses. They volunteered to serve in our military, of course.

Constitutional Insurgent said...

"I'd really like to get the input from someone who served in the military when the draft was in force and when it wasn't in force. What differences does someone with both experience note?"

AOW, I enlisted in '85 and was surrounded by crusty NCO's who either started as draftees, or served with them. From my recollection, they seemed to be generally split on the matter. Some draftees were more educated and mature compared to their volunteer counterparts, whereas others were disciplinary headaches from day 1. Much possibly had to do with the mentorship of the unit NCOs and the esprit de corps of the particular unit.

Liberalmann said...

This would be great - then finally some white kids would have to serve.

Constitutional Insurgent said...

"This would be great - then finally some white kids would have to serve."

Sure...as opposed to all of the white kids currently serving. Ignorance is bliss, eh?

Mustang said...

There are more than just a few problems with a military draft. I served with draftees, and while I can say that some of them were damn good troops, most were not. Worse, they were not trustworthy in the field.

I have no direct information about this, but my understanding is that draftees perpetrated most “fragging” in Vietnam and participated in race riots and assaults in the 1970s. Moreover, draftees overburdened company officers and NCOs with disciplinary issues —all of which take away from combat efficiency. They are why Master Sergeants have gray hair.

We enhance combat efficiency when troops bond with one another. Ideally, you train people hard, you make them reliant upon one another, and you keep them together for as long as possible. At best, we assign draftees to combat units for about 12 months, and then they are gone. This means a high turnover in personnel, and this is not a good thing if you want to achieve and maintain peak combat efficiency.

I honestly do not think we will face a “scourge of the East” soviet style military any time soon. If I am correct about this, then we do not need a military draft. If it ever happens that tens of millions of Chinese are swarming ashore along the Pacific Coast, then we could consider reinstating the draft at that time.

A small percentage of Americans have carried the burden of wearing a uniform for a very long time now. Most Americans do not want to serve their country, most Americans do not even love their country in the way I was raised to do so, and I completely agree with the notion that anyone that has to be forced to serve his country isn’t worth a tinker’s damn in combat.

Finally, I do not trust government enough to support the notion that one man (name any president) can impose martial law and control states and towns with divisions of federal troops. As an aside, the impracticality of this helps to explain why suddenly (in the past 20 years) civilian police departments have become miniature military units. Why civilian police departments should desire tanks and LAVs is worrisome, but even worse, no American seems to give a damn about this.

Any nation that can force a citizen to wear a uniform can force that same citizen to work in the fields; not an ideal America is it? Perhaps Milbank imagines that it has been too long since a rice farmer kicked our asses … so in that context, yeah … we need a draft. Good plan, Dana … and I hope he’s the first one called up.

American Jihad said...

C'mon all you libtards... there's no need to WAIT FOR A DRAFT, you think your Messiah's war mongering is such a GREAT IDEA, just head on down to the recruiter station and VOLUNTEER!
But I won't hold my breath.

Z said...

American Jihad...who are ALL THOSE LIBTARDS you're addressing????


Mustang, I respect your and CI's input the most here...having been military.

I'm sorry neither of you seem to think this grows young men and women up ... I guess it was a fantasy of mine based on some success stories I've seen and heard about; maybe not enough?

Mustang, you're right about how a gov't that can force kids to be drafted can force us to, for instance, take health care nobody wants.. Oh, wait a minute...........

:-)

Who's "DANA"? Is that libmann's real name?

Libmann...are you aware of how many 'white guys' are serving now?
You really are such a typical liberal racist in disguise. Calling Republicans all the names you feel comfortable with yourself...and we do not. WOW.

AOW, CI, Mustang, JonBerg, etc: I think it all depends on THE PERSON.
Some young Americans are still decent enough to get into the service and become better adults for it; forming long lasting relationships, doing anything they can for a brother in arms.......

Others are going to be (pardon me) the same shits they are in civilian life no matter how much good training they get (sorry, I couldn't resist; there's no better word; I've used PUNK enough on this post already!) And, really PUNK is just a euphemism for how I really feel.

Liberalmann said...

Remember what Obama talked about mandatory service and wingnuts call it 'Brownshirts?'

It's a great idea. We're losing our youth. They're totally disenfranchised and couldn't give a shit about the future of this country no matter what side they're 'on.' This is evident by the far right who believe nothing but total crap and lies.

Require everyone to either join the military or some organization to perform a public service.

Of course the right would rather keep the youth of this country dumb. It's too their advantage.

Mustang said...

Liberalman ... are you stepping out any time soon, you know, to do your part for America ... beyond performing drive-by communist assaults on conservative blogs, I mean.

No?

I didn't think so. Gutless wonder.

Impertinent said...
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Impertinent said...
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Z said...

Libmann....are you kidding?
"BROWNSHIRTS?" It's brownshirts when one indoctrinates as Obama's fans are...remember the video I blogged (actually, there are many) to kids hip hopping to how WONDERFUL Obama is?

Pal, we conservatives love OUR COUNTRY, not a PERSON.

How dare you say what you did?
WE would rather keep them DUMB?

No..WE don't think INDOCTRINATION is smart. You should be utterly ASHAMED that professors admit their leftwing leanings are in the classroom. You should utterly ashamed that you're part of a group that doesn't teach our children to THINK but just to follow the apparently holiness of MSNBC's jerks.

Yes, we all believe in public service. NOBODY here is advocating the draft; this was a DISCUSSION; there are PROS and CONS (ever heard of PROS and CONS, or do you just suck up the kool aid?)
And, trust me, NO AMOUNT of public service will stop our kids from continuing the entitlement mentality you JERKS have forced on them in schools and the media.

IMP: Thanks for YOUR experiences and sharing WHY you're for the draft.

I found this fascinating. Too bad our lefties just can't bring themselves to entertain a thought not first run through MSNBC or THE NATION.

Impertinent said...
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Constitutional Insurgent said...

Imp - This could be a topic all it's own, but for my part, the Commissaries are not the economic advantage their sold as, and AFN and the S&S are obsolete in the current era of social media and on-demand digital entertainment available at even the most remote COPs and FOBs.

Z said...

Imp, if CI is right, and he probably is about being obsolete (that makes sense, considering social media today), what's most important is not the venue but the message.

And I'm hoping the message of, particularly, Armed Services Radio, continues on. I doubt that will happen.


Impertinent said...
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Ed Bonderenka said...

One of my fears of an all volunteer military was that abuses of position might be hushed up by enlistees afraid of losing promotion opportunities.
Civilians rotating through would expose illegal activity.
I don't much feel that way anymore.
I've also felt that many would benefit from a stint, as I did.
Or Imp or JonBerg.
There's a part of me that would like to see some citizenship benefits based on some service.
So I've been pro draft.
Yet many of the arguments, such as Mustangs, sway me away from that position.

Ed Bonderenka said...

And Imp +1.

Constitutional Insurgent said...

"It saves military families thousands of dollars each year. So given that, do you think soldiers or their families should have to worry about getting fed properly?"

The statement on savings based of course, on the word of the agency fighting to survive, and a figure that I would dispute based on my experiences. Some items are lower cost, some are higher compared to the civilian equivalent. And yet the surcharge is higher than the state tax [at least here in Virginia]. YMMV.

No, I don't think Soldiers and their families should have to worry about how they will feed themselves if DECA goes away. But then again, I'm no fan of stateside PX/BX's either.

"......and we still have to send care packages to our troops in combat?"

But we don't 'have to'. They're nice to have, but in theater now, most service members are ordering what they need from Amazon.

You're not going to get any argument from me on the egregious waste fraud and abuse with domestic and foreign entitlement programs, but for me, it does not justify the argument of keeping pork on the books for the Armed Forces. DoD doesn't have to issue an iPad to every Soldier, those who have digital media devices these days, far outnumber those who don't.

I have nothing against AFN or AFRTS, but the business model is more untenable as time marches on.

Impertinent said...
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Constitutional Insurgent said...

"Yet I find it obscene, that with a Congress with a 91% disapproval rating, theres not some pork sandwich, BS, and baloney cutting in their perks too."

Right there with you. Trimming pork needs to be led from the front [or the top in this case]. Congress and 1600 Penn should lead by example.

Impertinent said...
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Impertinent said...

@CI:

+100

Duckys here said...

nt

Impertinent said...
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Liberalmann said...

‪Mustang‬ said...
Liberalman ... are you stepping out any time soon, you know, to do your part for America ... beyond performing drive-by communist assaults on conservative blogs, I mean.

I served, you asswipe.
___________
Z said: Libmann….are you kidding?
"BROWNSHIRTS?" It's brownshirts when one indoctrinates as Obama's fans are...remember the video I blogged (actually, there are many) to kids hip hopping to how WONDERFUL Obama is?
….
Yes, your video was a moronic example. Require all kids out of high school to some form of National or Military Service and we'll all be better off. You constant harping on the 'entitlement mentality' proves you think only one dimensionally.

We're all one paycheck away from joining those who need assistance and wingnuts have been hoodwinked into hating those they're a lot closer to than the coporatists who have created this economic disparity .

Z said...

Libermann..I'll be deleting you tonight, so don't bother.
NOBODY comes HERE and talks about WINGNUTS hating the poor or the sick, you ABSOLUTE DOPE. HOW DARE YOU?
You are so stupidly ideological that it's not worth reading or talking to you, so just STOP.

The very thought of liberal idiot kids being told "you're now joining the NATIONAL SERVICE" and their reaction to giving up the character-less life you liberals encourage is SO FUNNY it should stop you and make you laugh, too.

ARE YOU KIDDING? :-)

Gee, I wonder how many REPUBLICANS are in the service and how many LEFTIES who aren't in it just for a free education? hmm..want to supply a link?

it's approximated that 65% of the armed services vote Republican.
But good try.

Mustang said...

Liberalman never served, Z ... no one that stupid could pass the ASVAB. So that not only makes him gutless, it also makes him a liar.

Impertinent said...
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Kid said...

Libtardism is a Mental Disease. This is a clinical conclusion. Not an opinion. To be liberal requires you to be in direct opposition with your own statements. That is insanity.

Yea, that's you liberalman.

Well, I'll say there are many ways to serve this country. Not just the military. Disaster relief in the Myriad of disaster areas that pop up almost every year, medical aid at places like Lundstal. Do the laundry so good people can tend to the wounded for example.
Paint warships. Community Services. Help the elderly. Help the disabled.
Or heck, police the military bases and keep them up to snuff. You want a better job, shape up.

Patriotism (understood) will solve the problems in this country faster than anything else.

Do something beside sit on your ass like duck and libturd and bitch, moan and throw rocks.

And if you wash out? Detention center at a working farm in Kansas. Separate the Wheat from the Chaff by hand for a couple years- Lose you free college money and your free baby making money with the only possibility of redemption being community service or other accredited a 2X the going rate.

Scotty said...

I can only speak of my experience from the seventies. A draft today would much the same as it was during my era. Those that have/had connections were able to get deferments will still get those deferments. Much of those that were drafted in the day were the everyday folks. People without means, people that couldn’t afford to send a child to college and be granted a deferment. They didn’t have “connections”. I don’t think that would change today and given today’s attitude that seems to be prevalent, that would show itself with more force than back in my day. Certainly today there seems to be more of distaste for anything military.

With politics being what it is, I don’t see a sense of fairness even happening, it didn’t back in my day so, I would expect much the same results now. What’s the lyric in that old song Credence did, “I ain’t no fortunate son”.

I learned once I was in the military that many people were given options, when they stood before many judges, go to jail or join the military. Sad thing about that, it didn’t change these folks they still fully participated in their criminal activity despite wearing a uniform. That was part of the problem that Mustang pointed out in the low quality of some of our troops back then.

One thing I would like to address that Mustang mentioned. He seemed to place a lot of fault at the feet of draftees for the many negative things that happen in Vietnam.

I disagree that it was necessarily a fault of the draft ….there was no unit cohesion by the time I arrived in Vietnam. In “olden” days the military was deployed, much like today, as whole units. That didn’t happen in most units in Vietnam. There were no relationships built. Relationships that were, most times, built during training.

Lastly, I served with a LOT of “good ‘ol boys”. Those men that were dragged from the fields wouldn’t adapt well to the new and improved military.

A military that is nothing more than another social experiment. A new more sensitive military. Folks that have come up with these ideas have NEVER fought in war, they haven’t a clue as to what it even entails. No, I don’t see a draft as a way to go……certainly not in this time frame our world is now.

Z said...

Scotty, that "a new more sensitive military" is positively scary unless you're a leftie and don't think we'll ever face an enemy in uniform again.
Thanks for this input...it's sad to read but important to hear peoples' stories who actually lived through this.
Dare I say, also, that it'd be the rich kids who were drafted FIRST if it were up to this administration?
"The rich have to go first because their fathers didn't in Vietnam"..wait for it.

Z said...

You know, to my lib readers/commenters, I was just reminded how the big honcho, making MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of dollars screwing up the ACA website was a NO BID CONTRACTOR.

Wasn't it the left which still demeans Halliburton for having go a NO BID contract?

Gee.........ya, that's right. Imagine the hypocrisy? TYPICAL


Kid, right..patriotism would REALLY help; man, knowing that, we know we're in REAL TROUBLE

Scotty said...

The rich you speak of are no different than the ones today.They have the money to buy influence. And they reside in both parties. What you speak of would NEVER happen!! I'm amused mostly by democrats that bitch about the rich when in fact they ARE some of the richest! It won't change.

Z said...

Scotty, excellent point.
The best kept secret is that Dems are richer than Reps and Reps give more in philanthropy.
True....
I was being largely facetious about the rich being drafted first, but I wouldn't put that past Obama :-)

Z said...

Hey, Scotty, your profile says MUSICIAN. What do you play?

JonBerg said...

Z,

May I just say that your original purpose of today's blog is "spot on" and no matter how or why one enters the Military Service, moreover, that person will be better off for doing so to complete his/her commitment. I'm with you!

Z said...

THanks, JB!
After reading all the comments, I've got no more clarity than I first did about whether a draft is a good idea or not, but I tend to agree with you...it could be good for a LOT of young men (and women, tho I hate HATE HATE the idea of women in combat or on subs; sorry, I just do)...maybe not so good for others.

thank you for YOUR service...I honor all of the great Americans here who did serve our country thru the military!
I salute you all!

Finntann said...

As a 25 year veteran I find myself somewhat conflicted. Even in an all volunteer force it was those that had regrets and didn't want to be there that tended to be the disciplinary problems. With that perspective I would be opposed (short of all out war) to a military draft, on the other hand I would be more supportive of national service in which military service was one of many options.

Z said...

Well, hello there, Finntann!
Glad to see you here. And very glad for your input on this subject.

We talked about national service in comments above....I like your idea of having military inscription as one option. thanks!

Always On Watch said...

Mustang,
There are more than just a few problems with a military draft. I served with draftees, and while I can say that some of them were damn good troops, most were not. Worse, they were not trustworthy in the field.

Why am I reminded of so many of the high school students that I had to put up with when I was teaching in the public school system? The problems of which I'm thinking went well beyond the usual one of students who didn't want to be there because many were enrolled in courses for which they had zero aptitude -- such as "My kid is going to go to college, so he needs to take this course so that he can get in."

Furthermore, more than one student said to me, "You can't kick me out! It's the law that I have to be in school."

Sick Of All Of You Cons. said...

The Draft is a form of Slavery!
Forcing a man or a women to risk death or hideous maiming and crippling, in a war declared at the discretion of a war monger!

Finntann said...

"The Draft is a form of Slavery!"

Then by your logic, so too is giving nothing to society yet expecting others to pay all or part of your way. For are not those laboring to provide your upkeep in essence slaving away for you?

Robert Sinclair said...

Sorry I'm late to the party. There was no draft back during the Revolution and it was hard to maintain an army. My point is that damn few early Americans had any interest in joining the Continental Army. They were farmers. The war didn't have anything to do with them. So most "Americans" let someone else do it. That's the way it is today, too.

Scotty said...

I'm a keyboard player, Z. Also a percussionist and even screech a song or two.....

Z said...

Scotty, I used to sing a lot of jazz...am singing next Thursday, as a matter of fact, with a gospel group I LOVE and pianist who lifts my singing to a place no other accompanist (or I when I accompany myself) can do........

Divine Theatre said...

I would like to extend a heartfelt thank you to all those who did serve our beloved country.
I wish I had more time to participate in this forum. I learn so much here, reading all your posts after my daughter goes to bed each night, or in between "life stuff".
It occurred to me that people like you made all this "life stuff" possible.
Please know that the Pauly family prays for you each and every day. We are eternally grateful for your sacrifice.

Andie