Tuesday, July 24, 2012

Sally Ride...do you agree with the title?

I sent the following email to a few close friends last night on the subject of Sally Ride's apparent lesbianism, something of which most people didn't know until her death yesterday.  

"Here is a woman who tried to keep her sexual choice PRIVATE...who lived with another women for 27 years, happily and apparently monogamously, without (imagine?) forcing America to accept her sexuality because she wanted to marry or wanted notoriety.
Sally Ride has risen above the stars and the moon in my opinion.  I have tears in my eyes with respect for this woman, more than ever. May she rest in blessed peace for her quiet dignity."
I didn't plan on sharing that email with anybody else, but when I saw the title of the article for the story below, I blanched and had to discuss it here.   The title to the following article is this: 
Really?  She is the one who kept her personal life "hidden"...why would they say "Hidden Pride?"  She was in a 27 year relationship with another woman, a relationship which they both apparently kept quiet all these years; it was her quiet dignity which kept her from divulging this relationship to the public for all these years.  It was HER CHOICE.  Is it her PRIDE to have people out her on the day she DIED???  REALLY?   Here's the article under SALLY RIDE'S HIDDEN PRIDE:

Could Sally Ride, the first American woman in space, also have been the first lesbian in space? She died Monday after a 17-month battle with pancreatic cancer, and according to her website, she is survived by Tam O'Shaughnessy, her "partner of 27 years."
Ride's sister and a spokeswoman for Sally Ride Science, the organization led by Ride and O'Shaughnessy, confirmed the relationship to BuzzFeed along with their preference to keep it private.
O'Shaughnessy is currently a professor emerita of school psychology at San Diego State University, and wrote four books with Ride, but her interest in science started at an early age. The two scientists first met at age 12 playing tennis.
"O'Shaughnessy has been interested in science since she was a little girl," according to her biography. "One of her favorite childhood memories is of watching tadpoles in a creek gradually sprout legs, go green, and turn into frogs."
She wrote nine science books for children and helped Ride launch Sally Ride Science "because of her long-standing commitment to science education and her recognition of the importance of supporting girls' interests in science," according to the organization's website.
An article in the International Business Times says she was at Ride's side until the end.
Ride was not widely known in the gay community and was described as "elusive and enigmatic" and "protective of her emotions" in a 1983 Washington Post article referenced by a New York Times obituary.

If she was protective and elusive, why not let it stay that way in her death?   Is the gay lobby so important that they must out people who didn't apparently want to be outed?   I grieve for Ms. Ride and my sentiments above stand.  I wish she could have rested in quiet dignity, her sexual preference private as she'd wished.

Your thoughts?


Ed Bonderenka said...

Don't ask, don't tell.
This may have an effect on contributions to Sally Ride Science. Someone has done her (and Tam) a great disservice to promote their own agenda.

Ed Bonderenka said...

Furthermore, it appears "pride" now refers to orientation rather than the previous definition.

Silverfiddle said...

Point well taken, Z!

I did not know about her personal life.

Activist politics trumps all today even the deceased's wish for privacy. How sad.

Which was the more important achievement? Being a lesbian or being an astronaut? Clearly the latter, but we can't let someone's right to privacy get in the way of the larger agenda.

Always On Watch said...

For pity's sake!

The woman didn't broadcast her sexual orientation. It is appalling that the blabbing now starts. No respect for the dead!

KP said...

After going to Sally's web site, it looks like Sally and Tam released the nature of their relationship. Thery may have wanted top keep it on the down low for 27 years but after her passing they decided to share it with us. It doesn't look like she was outed:


From her tastefully written web site:

"In addition to Tam O’Shaughnessy, her partner of 27 years, Sally is survived by her mother, Joyce; her sister, Bear; her niece, Caitlin, and nephew, Whitney; her staff of 40 at Sally Ride Science; and many friends and colleagues around the country."

It looks like publicly acknowledging her and Tam's love was one of the last decisions they made together.

Ducky's here said...

Exactly, KP. It was a prepared statement.
She lived in a much less open time and felt it necessary to stay closeted but she wanted to control the revelation to avoid seeming ashamed.

Joe said...

If her sexual orientation was irrelevant, why reveal it at all?

Or why not?

It is her business, right or wrong (and I happen to think it is wrong, but not for the usual reasons).

That she chose to reveal it the way she did succeeded only in casting the dishonor of a great lie on her otherwise illustrious career.

There are some people to whom lying is just a way of life.

I respect her accomplishments and wish the fact of her homosexuality had not become an issue.

FreeThinke said...

I appreciate KP's statement -- and mirabile dictu ;-) -- Ducky's as well.

It seems clear to me that a title like The Secret Pride of Sally Ride -- or whatever it was -- is intended as a sort of antidote to the kind of headlines that might have appeared in earlier times. Before the often obnoxiously assertive role of Identity Politics took hold, that headline would have been much more apt to have said, The Secret Shame of Sally Ride or "Now We Must Deride Sally Ride or something equally sordid and demeaning.

It has never been necessary for people deemed normal to advertise and promote their heterosexuality. It's always been taken for granted. However, when a sexual orientation secretly common to untold millions has traditionally been regarded by the majority as "abominable," "vile," "sinful," "shameful," "diseased," "depraved," and even "disgusting," it's only natural that those to whom this sexual orientation is a central part of life would have a strong, long-suppressed need to CORRECT the long held assumptions and misrepresentation of their state of being.

Why should anyone who is leading a constructive, productive life be forced to endure the endless abuse that comes implicitly from a callous, mindless, continuous meanness from an Establishment tragically misinformed by ancient superstition?

Some of you may have noticed an article at FreeThinke's blog called It's the BELLIGERENCE, Stupid! It has generated 76 responses so far not all of them loving, beautiful and enlightened by a long shot, but most are revealing, instructive and certainly worth perusing.

Please take a look:


It's very pertinent to this post, albeit obliquely or tangentially (I'm never sure about the precise difference between those two, are you? ;-)

The historical roots for these disturbing trends we are forced to deal with today are very deep.

I don't like "in your face" behavior either, but is like a long-festering subcutaneous boil that finally emerges on the surface of the skin after having spread poison throughout the system.

The ugly, tasteless, nasty, often deranged behavior of "activists" is the visible symptom of a suppurating systemic disorder.

Practicing The Golden Rule would be the best way to deal with it. In other words Treat other people the way you would like them to treat you. That doesn't mean "Punish them for their obnoxious qualities or perceived evil deeds."

Not to be trite, but in the final analysis AMOR VINCIT OMNIA.

~ FreeThinke

cube said...

I never knew Ride was a lesbian and it wouldn't have bothered me had she come out sooner. It was her and Tam's decision to come out on their website.

I'm just glad there are braver souls than me who had the courage to blast into space. Me, I'm afraid to fly in an airplane. Bok bok.

Z said...

KP, I'm sure Tam wouldn't do anything against Sally's wishes, but I read at least 3 references about this before posting this, of course, and I still don't see where Ride was part of this disclosure, that this decision was "made together" I pray that's so....
Can you show me?
I'll be very relieved if that's the case.

FT says "It has never been necessary for people deemed normal to advertise and promote their heterosexuality. It's always been taken for granted"

I often wonder why it is necessary for any people to advertise and promote their sexuality of either bent.

Z said...

Cube, maybe you can help if KP's left his computer.

I had seen "her partner Tam"....does it say they decided together to present it like this?
Why am I missing it when I read so many articles before posting this?

Ducky's here said...

Dishonor? Are you serious, Joe?

Other than being an example of the attitude that was common and kept people closeted I don't see any purpose in such a ridiculous statement.

Z said...

Ducky, can you find where she wanted to "control the revelation?" And that she was behind the "and partner" part of the statement? I'm hoping that's the case.

But, please..remind us for how many of the last years have been so difficult for gays to come out?

You'd completely discount the fact that she just might have felt her personal life was her personal life and didn't belong to us? Americans suck the blood out of every celebrity in their zeal to know everything about them.

I admire her very much for having lived a full and apparently happy life and no need to join the parade. Literally and figuratively.

Z said...

I'll be in and out all day...
will respond when I'm back.

have a good one, everybody.z

Sam Huntington said...

Dr. Ride was such an outstanding person, why does anyone care about her sexual preferences? The media is such scum ...

Ticker said...

Because the looney left will do anything to promote their cause. What a great disservice to this lady. She kept her private life private and fools should have had enough decency and respect to have left well enough alone. It is no one's business but hers.

Lisa said...

Apparently to liberals the only thing that trumps science is one's sexual preferences.

Anonymous said...

"no need to join the parade. Literally and figuratively."

Well said...I plan to attend the heterosexual - straight parade next week in San Francisco...won't you?

KP said...

<< I'm sure Tam wouldn't do anything against Sally's wishes >>

It seems that way to me as well. From all accounts (business, educational, philanthropy, personal) it sounds like a healthy, mutually respectful, intellectually honest 27 year relationship between two super bright scientist -- right up to and through one of the toughest things life can through at us -- slowly dying of cancer. That is what made me think they had decided to release that message together.

Of course, I could be wrong. It was a gut feel.

Steve said...

Yes, they were very smart and realized that coming out meant many problems merely because they were gay.
With the hate and discrimination against gays fueled by religious nonsense and red neck threats, their safety was literally at risk.
Societies fear of those who are different than themselves, has led to discrimination, beatings, and murders.
I'm sure they wished it was different, but reality has to rule, to protect oneself. I'm sure they wished they did not have to hide their relationship. Who wants to live a lie, but that's what they were forced to do, to optimize their talents and opportunities.
Sad. Sad that a closed minded, dangerous society forced them to make the decision to stay closeted.
They made a correct decision for them, and eliminated the negative effects of societies hate. Others fight to eliminate that hate, and confront it, by being public and demanding their human rights.
The conservative response to that is? Keep your mouth shut. Don't ask, don't tell. Don't make you true feelings known to me, go back in the closet.
""It has never been necessary for people deemed normal to advertise and promote their heterosexuality."
Your kidding, right? Hetreos don't display, or promote their sexuality choice publicly?
That's a statement by someone who truly does not get it and promotes discrimination through their own bigotry..

FreeThinke said...

Steve, you quoted a small part of my statement accurately, then either stupidly -- or calculatedly -- mischaracterized what I said.

I had hoped for better from someone whose admittedly doctrinaire-not-truly-humanistic point of view I support in the main, but no -- ignoring anything of virtue and value, cherry-picking remarks out of context, distortion, willful misunderstanding, out-and-out lies -- and ceaseless axe-grinding -- are the standard methodologies employed by leftists taught by The Frankfurt School to employ CRITICAL THEORY -- The Culture of Relentless Attack and Endless Complaint.

Because of our Constitution, you are still free to engage in such practices -- vile though it be -- but I am equally free to call you on it, and tell you how ignoble and counter-productive your tactics are.

It's not leftists being dead wrong that bothers me so much as their intention -- always -- to function as a corrupting influence and their infinite capacity for deceit.

With the left "fair play" has never been an option.

~ FreeThinke

Steve said...

Not my fault your words make you look like the bigot you are

Right Truth said...

She was married to another astronaut from 1982 - 1987, a man. Did NASA know she was lesbian? Probably not. She was a private woman, in all matters, not just her apparent switch from hetro to homo. The only time she was in public was to promote her science programs which educated children. I don't understand why people think it is OK to make public every detail about a person just because they die.

She was a kind woman. Our daughter was interested in the space program when she was young. She attended Space Camp two different years. She sent a personal letter to Sally Ride asking about education etc.

Sally Ride responded, not with a form letter and an envelope of printed literature, but with a personal letter. I appreciate that.

Right Truth

FreeThinke said...

Is anyone aware that using a term like "homo" falls into the same category as "dago," "gook," "wog," "kike," "spic," and "nigger?"

Why use hurtful terms of opprobrium when better, more accurate terms xist in the vocabulary?

~ FT

FreeThinke said...


Thank you so much for immediately underscoring and offering conclusive proof that my criticism of you and your kind is accurate and aptly phrased.

I don't condemn you for your admittedly asinine opinions -- only for tyour deliberate misapplication of my words.

~ FreeThinke

Z said...

Steve "Yes, they were very smart and realized that coming out meant many problems merely because they were gay.Yes, they were very smart and realized that coming out meant many problems merely because they were gay."
You sound so intolerant it's scary.

What kind of problems would that be? Perhaps they just didn't think their sexuality was any more a subject of interest than mine is?

Debbie...one of my frequent commenters and I spoke on the phone yesterday; a relative of hers met Sally Ride and said she was amazingly kind and smart, too...thanks for the confirmation.
SHe was quite an attractive woman in her later years, too, judging from my post image, don't you think? Lovely woman. And yes, I had seen she had a straight marriage at one time, too.

FT..what bugged you the most about Steve's comment that got you so energized? Please tell me.
And yes, we all know "homo" is not a kind or useful term. I have grazed the comments and don't see who used it but I'm sorry it as here.
Actually, Ducky uses it quite a bit and it always grates on my nerves. To me it's like "*igger"..
oh. you wrote that in your comment. Well, I"ll leave mine ...we agree :-)

KP, I appreciate your gut feel but I did want you to know I don't post without checking (and I'm glad you would call me on something I missed, I really AM..I'd have deleted this post IMMEDIATELY if not sooner had I seen Miss Ride had approved the 'partner' term).
I'm so darned naive I checked around wondering if 'partner' only meant writing/science partner. Man, for someone who had a million gay friends in her interior design life, how I can be that naive is beyond me. But, honestly, I knew no gay women in my business, just men. At least not that I knew of!
I believe Miss Ride's partner would NEVER have betrayed her obvious lifelong desired PRIVACY (what a sadly maligned and ignored act lately, huh?) but who knows who released that statement, right?
Do we know Tam O'Shaunessey did? Not really.

Steve said...

Thank you for proving you are a homophobic, bigot

Steve said...

I listed them, discrimination, beatings, murder
Guess that's not enough for you, or you can not read

Z said...

Steve, why must you be so insulting and dismissive? Where do you get OFF, if you don't mind my asking?

How many cases of lesbians being beaten or killed have you heard of?

COuld you ever entertain the idea that these are women who didn't give a darn that YOU KNEW about their physical attraction for each other and that's why they were PRIVATE?

Are you calling FT a homophobic bigot, or ? :-)

Average American said...

As far as I am concerned, they all should have stayed in the closet. Nuff said.

KP said...

I can't agree with what Steve said or the tone. I wouldn't assume Sally or Tam were afraid for their lives due to "religious nonsense and red necks". Probably just looking for some privacy. They lived near me in La Jolla, CA and it is a peaceful, accepting, open minded city where the gay community is concerned.

The Repub nominee for mayor is gay and he defeated a Repub lesbian woman (the attoerney general) in the primary. Nobody gives a hoot that they are gay or come from the LGBT community. It's not a topic of discussion in town.

KP said...

The San Diego LGBT Pride Parade was this past weekend in San Diego. Active duty gay military men and women marched in uniform.

"The annual San Diego LGBT Pride Parade is the 4th largest in the United States attracting over 197,000 cheering spectators and significant media participation."

Joe said...

Ducky: I'm sure you find honor in lies.

They Say/We Say said...

Leaving out the nature--er unnatural acts in the bedroom, would be the correct presentation of either professional carer.
The leftist would have run with the news and overshadowed both of their accomplishments.
It was the Intellectual and real professional way to bring any contribution to the world; now that both have seen a long accomplished existence of contribution to the world-it would be fitting to reveal that social perspective, leaving the activist in the DUST!

Z said...

KP "It's not a topic of discussion in town." La Jolla...FULL of gays. Wonderful that it's no topic of discussion. That's how it should be. (and SUCH a gorgeous town)

I'm sorry about the LGBT parade and the military marching in it...The media loved that story and photos were all over Yahoo's homepage and elsewhere. I don't know one soldier, and I have some retired military people in my life, who think this is dignified or a good idea. On any level.

Liberalmann said...

As for someone being hetero as a given ....

If I just asssume everyone is gay will they shut up?

FreeThinke said...

Hi, Z.

Why did I get so irked at Steve?

I did try to explain it, but maybe I didn't do a good enough job.

I made a point of criticizing him, not to be nasty, but because he gave a good example of what the left does virtually all the time with the truth.

He took a few words of mine out of context, and attributed to them a meaning the direct opposite what I had actually said, then had the nerve to chide for saying something I did not say.

I'm sorry. I don't like quarrels any more than you do, but it's all-but impossible for me to let someone lie about me without making an attempt to correct them.

I ought to be used to it after all this time in cyberspace, but somehow I just can't ignore such things.

Sorry if I sounded too unpleasant. That's not what i want at all, believe me.

Hope things are going well for you.



Law and Order Teacher said...

The sad thing about this story is the utter disregard for personal privacy. Ride accomplished much and should have been allowed to die on her own terms as she had lived. I agree it was probably made public to fulfill an agenda. What a shameful act.

Ducky's here said...

Other than your obvious bias what makes you think this was intended to fulfill and agenda?

What agenda?

Liberalmann said...

You know Mr. Ducky don't play coy


Z said...

FT...no problem. And I very much appreciate your explanation.
I still don't see WHAT it was he did wrong, but if you feel that way, you had every right to write what you did. thanks.

L&0...exactly. PRIVACY is something we could all wish was back in stronger force.

Ducky "what agenda?" :-)
you alive?

Steve said...

That's all you people understand is being insulting and dismissive, that's what you do, fine, I know how to do that. I can respond in kind, and don't expect any better when that's the treatment I get.

Z said...

Liberalmann, I don't need to open your link after having read the title.
Thanks, that's an excellent example.
I don't want four year olds told about homosexuality at that young age. I want children to be able to grow up without confusion, and that is confusion, make no mistake about it. SOme questions from young children are better unanswered; I'd have thought anybody would agree with that.
I also don't want heterosexual sex described to children of such young ages, yet we see it. I've posted many articles on that.
all in the name of 'open mindedness', we're creating a world of confusion.

What parents want to do at home is up to them. Not in the schools, not against the will of parents...particularly when their will has been scoffed by school administrations and maligned.

Liberalmann said...

Or if you prefer


Z said...

Steve, you're treated dismissively HERE? No, not at all.

By the way...How many cases of lesbians being beaten or killed HAVE you heard of???

Z said...

Libmann, go post somewhere else for your lousy $15 an hour. thanks

Anonymous said...

"It's not a topic of discussion in town..."

Nor should it be anywhere...whether to show you're "hip" or inclusive... accepting...mine and yours in no ones damn business.

And I for one get pretty GD tired of the process of categorizing and shoving people into certain, "acceptable" social confines. It's all BS. And if gays were happy with their arrangement and lifestyle....why shove it into my face? That's what I have a problem with.

If I meet you...and like you...I don't give rats ass who you sleep with...sheep...men ....women or your pet parakeet. It's none of my business...so why tell me?

I don't care if you like men...or women...it's my business...and if you had any respect for us...and yourself....you'd do us all a favor by keeping your sexual, private preferences to yourself.

Louis H. said...

Why use hurtful terms of opprobrium when better, more accurate terms xist in the vocabulary?

Help me out here, Mr. FT …

I don’t mean this to be disrespectful; not at all —but are you saying homosexuals resent people referring to them as homosexuals? Really? And then, because homosexuals don’t like people referring to them as homosexual, they invented a name for themselves (GAY), which has nothing whatever to do with being a homosexual, and then finally this entire LBGT novella for the past 20 years is all about the self-esteem for people exhibiting queer behavior?

Is this not idiotic and much to do about nothing?

Rita said...

Your post was the first I saw of Sally's preference. My reaction of who Sally preferred was, "So?". Perhaps Ms.Ride thought it was no one's damned business which gender she preferred. Perhaps she believed that she was a professional scientist and what she did in her bedroom shouldn't be intermingled with what happened in the board room.

Maybe it's just me, but when I'm at work is the time I rarely think about my gender or my sexual preference. And I couldn't care less when my co-worker might be gay. If they do their jobs well, who they sleep with is none of my business.

Z said...

Louie, I don't see it, but I think someone used the shorthand "HOMO" and that has become an insulting expression to gays.

Rita. ...amen to that.
it's just NONE OF ANYBODY'S BUSINESS and she kept her sexual preference quiet for 27 years and now she's OUT and we're arguing that she should be? WHO SAYS? WHAT THE>>>>>>>??

Jan said...

Sally Ride was a very accomplished woman who happened to be a lesbian. That didn't make her a better scientist/astronaut, or a worse one.

It was her choice not to make that fact public while she was alive, so I would hate to think that her partner, or whomever, publicized it after her death, unless it had been agreed to, before her passing.

To use it now, for any ulterior motive, is just wrong.

I admire her for the work that she did, and all that she accomplished in her lifetime.

What many fail to understand about those of us who do not agree with the alternative lifestyle, is that we don't hate the person, and don't wish them harm, and can appreciate them as fellow human beings, as long as the respect is mutual.

Z said...


This takes the cake..."Gee, why aren't there openly gay astronauts"?

"Gee, I don't know, Ollie.."

I wish I was clever enough to come up with a funny answer because it sounds like the opener of a good joke.
How about "maybe there just AREN'T ANY?"
Maybe they'll have an affirmative action Bill and force NASA to hire gay astronauts for a while to even things out? :-)



Bob said...

I don't see anything wrong with the title if the article had to be written. But, why was it written? Why cannot people leave people alone to live their lives as they wish?

Of course this leads to the subject of gay marriage. To me, the problem with the institution of marriage is married people who cannot stay married. The number of gay marriages would not be enough to sneeze at when compared to the total number of marriages. Plus, I don't think they would be propagating their genes.

Let's let people be people, and stay out of their private lives.

Z said...

Bob, so you think one should have pride for being gay?

KP said...

I don't have a problem with gay pride. Any group that has suffered decades if not hundreds or more years of persecution will want to speak out.

The fight for Civil Rights, which continues today, Black Power, Women's Rights of the Antebellum Era, the 1920s and the 1970s, which continues today, are/were okay.

Gay rights discussions and protests and marchs will continue; and our view as a nation will continue to evolve generation by generation. If you speak to adults in their early twenties they view the issues named above quite differently than many Americans did just two generations ago.

Yes, progress is slow, partiucularly if you are part of a group that has been singled out in business or personal life; but that is changing and it should continue to change.

As it does, we will see less radical approaches to securing perceived acceptance and less and less persecution.

Z said...

KP, if they feel their homosexuality merits pride, so be it. Should they be prouder than I am about my heterosexuality? :-) Pride wouldn't enter into it and never has, in my book.
I know too many gay men who absolutely CRINGE at the parades and say "this puts us back 10 years...why do they have to DO THAT?"

I'm on their side.

By the way, if you speak to young people, a much larger percentage are gay or bi now, too....my girlfriend's daughter went to boarding school and came back a lesbian. She said "Mom, EVERY girl tries it".
This is what I fear. I know too many men who were enticed, fell into the lifestyle and learned to woe the day.

Z said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Z said...

Poor Ms Ride...now the internet's carrying articles about how her death has "sparked debate on coming out".

I'm thinking if she'd wanted her life or death to do that, she'd have started it herself. God rest her soul.

Law and Order Teacher said...

Sorry I was late on this, but "My bias.?" What bias might that be? I made no biased statements against Sally Ride. Perhaps you think I'm biased against gays. You don't know me so you're shooting in the dark.

The agenda to which I refer is that of leftists who would out a person who wished to remain private. Her life has been private and those who didn't want to leave it that way have an agenda.

Whether it be that she is an accomplished woman who was a lesbian, which in some small minds equates with the thought all gays are great, accomplished people, or it was a press puke who wanted to make a name for him or herself.

Either way a weak, worthless piece of crap. Therefore, Ducky, put away your broadbrush and stop generalizing on all conservatives and what they think.

KP said...

@Z << if they feel their homosexuality merits pride, so be it. Should they be prouder than I am about my heterosexuality? >>

Of course not. But we should expect some push back after after decades of negative stereotypes and treatment. Did you say the same thing when black power was in vogue in the 60s? When you watched Soul Train? There were plenty of blacks that were not walking around with giant afros and a fist in the air. But some were. It's not that big a deal.

KP said...

<< my girlfriend's daughter went to boarding school and came back a lesbian. She said "Mom, EVERY girl tries it". >>

Kids will use that line about everything. That's where parents got the line "If everybody jumps off a cliff, will you?"

Don't fall for it :-)

Z said...

KP. Actually, I know Caroline well, and the amazing relationship she has with her mother...she doesn't lie. They try it because they can.
As DUcky did to AOW with "all the time"....we can't name names, but I knew NO LESBIANS in college or high school...none that I knew of anyway......and most of Caroline's girlfriends had sex with girls.

Do you not think it's a much easier thing to do these days with society championing homosexuality these days?
There are millions of gays in this country! I don't think the marches and parades do a bit of good...attention's been called to their plight, most of those situations have been solved, and I'd have hoped, like my own gay friends, that that's that.
There's a lot of 'agenda' out there, ideological agenda that has zip to do with what most gays want.

Law & Order, I fear Ducky generalizes because it's easier to get off topic...then he doesn't have to respond TO the topic.

KP said...

@Z Okay :-)

Steve said...

"As far as I am concerned, they all should have stayed in the closet. Nuff said"

There ya go, a LITTLE honesty

Virginia Fox (Rep.Congress member) saying Mr. Shepard probably deserved his beating, because he was publicly (out) a homosexual.
She said that in open session, while Mr. Shepard's parents were in the House.

Z said,

"most of those situations have been solved"

That is a lie and statistics show it to be a lie.