Mandela obviously loved his people (or why would he spend almost 30 years in prison?!), particularly loved children (the first person he touched upon exiting prison was a white woman's baby when he asked if he could hold her child), was a very sweet man, and had some humility, according to a few men who knew him well and who were interviewed by Charlie Rose.
And, of course, Mandela chose S Africa's last white president during Apartheid, de Klerk, as one of his Deputy Presidents, which was an admirable thing. Here's the rub; the leftwing media's been treating Mandela like God because he picked deKlerk, as if de Klerk, because he was white, hated blacks and wanted Apartheid to stay as it was, when he was one of the hardest workers against Apartheid.
Do you see what the media's doing? Why wouldn't Mandela pick a white man who understood the importance of the end of Apartheid? Also, Mandela insisted that his African National Congress be multiracial; I believe that says a lot.
So, I've softened on the subject of Mandela, though I do believe South Africa would still be a great place had the whites (who'd lived there for years and made it a great country), not had to leave once they knew what was coming (and they did, some thirty years ago, in scared and disillusioned droves), and had the black Africans been told to stop robbing, raping, etc., and start working. I knew a couple of white families (one is related) myself who knew exactly how bad it would be when Apartheid ended. Not 'bad' that blacks would have freedom! but these whites had enough experience to realize what the more dangerous of those blacks would do with their newfound freedom. My in-law relatives left thirty years ago for fear for their four young daughters and made a huge success here in Los Angeles. Yes, families left with their money, knowing how bad it would get and it did. This is also a story. Nobody's covering that. Sad.
I have somewhat changed my opinion of Mandela.. To understand his "Communism" you're all mentioning on the post below's comments, please read the link HERE, an excellent piece on Mandela and Communism. I believe it's true. Probably a little on the soft side, but true.
Some of you will be irate when you read this...I've called Mandela a Communist for years, too. But please comment after reading the article I linked. I think this is a worthwhile discussion. I hope you do, too.
Z
40 comments:
There's no doubt that Mandela was a great man, and a great leader for his people. He was also a communist as outlined in the article you linked, and he was also an anti-Semite as illustrated when he embraced Arafat and the Palestinians.
See Angel's article on this.
So, I will let the great man be great, and let those who idolize him do so without my criticism. Just know that the man was a long way from being perfect.
Bob, I don't suggest he was perfect but I hope you saw the pragmatism of his communism in the linked article.
I'd never ever excuse any type of communism because of what it does to a heart of a people, but I thought that article was pretty interesting and threw a new light on his association with communism.
I actually disagree that he was a totally great 'leader' because he couldn't control the people's violence AND he didn't seem to know how to grow an economy out of that rich country's natural resources, though, before Apartheid, the people certainly did.
But he was certainly a GREAT LIBERATOR, and he cared greatly for his people; no doubt about that.
Good comment, Bob...thanks.
Bill Keller argues that we are all often more complex than it would seem by casual observance of our actions. I have no doubt this is true. Nationalism in the post-imperialist world more often leaned toward “communism” for two essential reasons: in the first, we should not that American diplomacy has been tragically myopic for more than 100 years. It really is amazing that anyone will speak to us, diplomatically. Second, the communist regimes were more than happy to give money and material (read armaments) to nationalist leaders —and in doing so, had every right to expect at least public lip service in return. Mr. Mandela was not the first to avail himself of presents from Russia and China.
I am reminded of a comment made by Benjamin Franklin as the Constitutional Convention ended, and (paraphrasing) he wondered what the American people would do with such a document. Similarly, we have but to look to see what Mandela did with his opportunity for leadership, and rather than to judge him based upon the leftist myths, or the attitudes of his detractors, perhaps we should evaluate him based upon his actual accomplishments.
Should we imagine a South Africa that treats all citizens equally? That did not happen. South Africa today is a dangerous place for whites (less than 10% of the population) (who were born and raised in South Africa for over four or five generations). I wonder how many realize that whites were taken to Africa from Europe as indentured servants? That is to say, people who were willing to indenture themselves for a chance in life …
What Mandela created was something exponentially worse than what the communists have created here: a welfare state that would cause Ducky to weep with envy. Today, 62% of the black population lives in urban areas; unemployment is 50%; life expectancy, 49 years; expenditures on education, 6% of GDP; expenditure on health systems, 8% of GDP. The place is a slum yard and at some point in the future, South Africa will run out of rich people, or more importantly, rich people’s money. Then what?
I do not see that Mandela did wonderful things for “his people.” I am not making a value judgment here about what kind of a man he was. I am simply stating that if anyone in this country thinks that Mandela was a godsend to the South African people, it will be easy to fool them into voting for someone like Barack Obama. Oh wait … that already happened.
Not to worry Mustang, we're getting there. Our education system is already lagging behind that of Vietnam, and Obama Care should take us the rest of the way into oblivion. If we're really lucky, the American people will rise up and elect someone like Nancy Pelosi or Hillary (Benghazi) Clinton as their next president.
Bob said,
So, I will let the great man be great, and let those who idolize him do so without my criticism"
Really? Well I won't! Keep singing Obama's praises.. After all, he only lies when his lips move!
Mandela was Not a Hero, Mandela was Not a “Great Man” But Nelson Mandela was a Marxist Terrorist!
Read here the crimes of this man you call a “Great Man”no sir, Mandela was a Communist and a terrorist!!
At his own trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists. And yet he refused to renounce violence! Great Man? I think NOT!
Two of Mandel's terrorist organization the African Communist Party a widly known terrorist organization biggest donors, were Muammar Gaddafi of Libya and President Suharto of Indonesia . Not only did Mandela refrain from criticizing their despicable human rights records but he awarded them South Africa ‘s highest honor. Suharto was awarded a state visit, and a 21-gun salute. The misconceptions here in America about Mandela are vast . So don’t gall him a “Great Man” Don't be fooled by the left.,
Bob, Israel was one of the few supporter of the apartheid government, they armed the apartheid government with advanced weapons including the first use of drones, they aided the apartheid government in research to develop a nuclear weapon.
Why not list the reasons that Mandela should have embraced Israel.
Mustang, are we to assume he could have just snapped his fingers and relive the massive poverty?
Maybe he should have encouraged an extension of the previous policies since they had created such a garden of Eden in the townships.
Z don't drink the Kool-aide, don't soften on the subject of Mandela,
Don't fall for that Leftist BS, They are hypocrite, all of them
Emily is right Z, You are stuck in a loop. Have the nearest person to you smack you in the back of the head and wake up.
@ Ducky
You are free to assume whatever you wish. I am only saying that if Mandela’s accomplishments recommend him to you as one of the world’s great leaders, then your expectations are very low.
Z, Think of it this way, Mandela’s greatest influences were Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong. He had connections with many communist parties and was inspired by Fidel Castro's 26th of July Movement in the Cuban Revolution to create the Umkhonto we Sizwe (MK). The MK at first only targeted gov and military installations, but started killing civilians in the 1980s. Mandela refuse to denounce these crimes against humanity by a group he started.
He was influenced by those individuals above . It was written on several of his biographies. Here is one Nelson Mandela’s Living Legacy | Preparing for Defiance 1949-1952 | The South African.
"Inspired by Fidel Castro's 26th of July Movement in the Cuban Revolution, in 1961 Mandela co-founded Umkhonto we Sizwe ("Spear of the Nation", abbreviated MK) with Sisulu and the communist Joe Slovo. Becoming chairman of the militant group, he gained ideas from illegal literature on guerilla warfare by Mao and Che Guevara. Officially separate from the ANC, in later years MK became the group's armed wing."
I would say that at least Mao and Castro were some of the "greatest" influences. Mao is the most troubling considering he murdered millions.
The Apartheid in it's entirety was a crime against humanity. I never said he was wrong in fighting against it. But at the same time, committing horrible acts of violence against innocent people is never justified.
Most people on the left of the political spectrum would agree wholeheartedly with the
above quote. But they run into an unexpected problem when someone asks "why is he
considered such a great statesman?"
The problem is that Mandela, apart from having a likeable personality, has achieved next
to nothing in his relatively short political career which saw South Africa rapidly decline
to the status of the world's most violent and crime-ridden country, and, to add to the
confusion, his greatest friends are communists and dictators like Fidel Castro, Moammar
Qaddafi, Yasser Arafat and Saddam Hussein. His ex-wife Winnie Mandela, whom he
quickly jettisoned when it became clear she was a considerable embarassment to his
political career, is a self-confessed advocate of terrorism and violence and has even
committed murder.
In his public statements and speeches Mandela is always critical of the democratic
countries of the west, but has nothing but praise for the remaining communist
dictatorships of the world. He condemns mistakes and controversial policies of the west,
but refuses to publicly condemn the genocides and brutal repression of current or former
communist countries; he is supposedly a "champion of freedom and democracy", the
"hero of oppressed people everywhere" but considers dictatorships like Cuba and Libya
shining beacons of freedom and justice...
Perhaps this is what makes Mandela such a revered statesman - chameleon-like he can
advocate democracy and freedom as the highest ideals one day and hold up Cuba or
Libya as shining examples for the world to follow the next day. And his admirers do not
even notice the contradiction, or worse, they agree with him...
Many of his apologists optimistically claim that Mandela may well have had "communist
leanings" in his past, but that he has since put all that behind him and become a moderate
in his political beliefs. They are perhaps unaware of his fulsome praise of a communist
dictatorship as late as 1991 when he and Winnie went to what they called their "second
home" - Cuba - to celebrate the communist revolution with Fidel Castro. In his speech
Mandela said:
"Long live the Cuban Revolution. Long live comrade Fidel Castro... Cuban
internationalists have done so much for African independence, freedom, and
justice. We admire the sacrifices of the Cuban people in maintaining their
independence and sovereignty in the face of a vicious imperialist campaign
designed to destroy the advances of the Cuban revolution. We too want to
control our destiny... There can be no surrender. It is a case of freedom or death.
The Cuban revolution has been a source of inspiration to all freedom-loving
people."
Mandela's adulation of Castro and Cuba almost outshines that of his own admirers. In
May of 1990 Mandela, visiting America, went on record, referring to Cuba:
There's one thing where that country stands out head and shoulders above the
rest. That is in its love for human rights and liberty.
A week later in Libya, he lauded Qaddafi's:
Committment to the fight for peace and human rights in the world.
While in America Mandela also made public statements that amounted to support for
violence and terrorism in the furtherance of political aims. In a speech in Harlem,
referring to four Puerto Rican terrorists who shot and wounded five US Congressmen in
1954, he said:
We support the cause of anyone who is fighting for self-determination, and our
attitude is the same, no matter who it is. I would be honored to sit on the platform
with the four comrades you refer to.
Suitable "comrades" for Mandela indeed. He was himself originally incarcerated, not for
his political views, but for involvement in 23 different acts of sabotage and conspiring to
overthrow the government. He and his fellow conspirators of the ANC and the South
African Communist Party were caught by the police while in the possession of 48,000
Soviet-made anti-personnel mines and 210,000 hand-grenades!*
It is also interesting to note that in later years Mandela was offered his freedom by none
other than the South African President Botha if he would simply renounce the use of
terrorism, but Mandela refused to do this.
Winnie Mandela has been equally fulsome in her praise of Communism and violence. In
1986 she was reported in Moscow's communist party newspaper Pravda as saying:
The Soviet Union is the torch-bearer for all our hopes and aspirations. We have
learned and are continuing to learn resilience and bravery from the Soviet
people, who are an example to us in our struggle for freedom, a model of loyalty
Average life expectancy in ancient Canaan, 40 years of age. Someone near 50 would be considered “extremely old.” Comparing that with the average life expectancy in South Africa, there hasn’t been much progress in 4,000 years. What a wonderful endorsement of communism that is!
Liberalmann, are you one of those self-hating Jews?
"GOOD, LETS KEEP IT THAT WAY!"
Classy......real classy.
/sarc
The full list of munitions and charges read as follows:
One count under the South African Suppression of Communism Act No.
44 of 1950, charging that the accused committed acts calculated to further
the achievement of the objective of communism;
One count of contravening the South African Criminal Law Act (1953),
which prohibits any person from soliciting or receiving any money or
articles for the purpose of achieving organized defiance of laws and
country; and
Two counts of sabotage, committing or aiding or procuring the
commission of the following acts: 1 ) The further recruitment of persons for instruction and training, both
within and outside the Republic of South Africa.
10 counts of killing and maiming innocent people including women and children.
(a) the preparation, manufacture and use of explosives — for the purpose of
committing acts of violence and destruction in the aforesaid Republic, (the
preparation and manufacture of explo- sives, according to evidence
submitted, included 210,000 hand grenades, 48,000 anti-personnel mines,
1,500 time devices, 144 tons of ammonium nitrate, 21.6 tons of aluminum
powder and a ton of black powder);
(b) the art of warfare, including guerrilla warfare, and military training
generally for the purpose in the aforesaid Republic;
(ii) Further acts of violence and destruction, (this includes 193 counts of
terrorism committed between 1961 and 1963);
(iii) Acts of guerrilla warfare in the aforesaid Republic;
(iv) Acts of assistance to military units of foreign countries when
Source: The State v. Nelson Mandela et al, Supreme Court of South Africa, Transvaal Provincial Division,
1963-1964, Indictment.
Mandela was one of this planets biggest frauds. . A rotten Communist terrorist, bigoted, phony that deserved every day he spend in that miserable jail he was sentence to.Ask the families of the women and children he ordered killed. Ask the whites fleeing the country en masse to escape the same kind of wanton, arbitrary murder and oppression perpetrated by the ANC that the Boers were responsible for during their corrupt reign.
He even pled guilty to ordering 150 plus terrorist acts that killed, maimed women and children among other intended targets. I don’t care if he repented or not. So did OJ Simpson and I wouldn’t waste my good spit on either of them. And his Wife Winnie is a murdering old bitch as well.
Those lefties who say that it was Justified acts, are full of crap, they should suff. it , I wonder what they would say if it were one of their family members that were bombed going to school, or if it were one of their family members who Winner put a Burning Tire around and watch them burn to death.
Great man? He was a freaken Terrorist, no better then the ones we are fighting today!
Justified terrorism? Where have these liberal apartheid supporters crawled out from? Go back to the Liberal boards where you belong.
ARE THESE THE QUALITIES WE WANT IN OUR LEADERS.
Z, Nelson Mandela was not the saint that the left has painted him to be, but he had nothing to do with Winnie Mandelás filthy shenanigans. She used her attachment to him to do all sorts of evil and inventing "necklacing" is one of the worst. He divorced her soon after his release, which says a lot for him. He also instituted a "reconciliation" rather than encouraging the type of bloodbath that would have made people like WM happy.
I dońt even know if shés still alive, but she is on sure candidate for Hell when her time comes.
Ím not the world́s biggest Nelson Mandela fan, and the worship does make me itch, but he should not be tarred with Winnie Mandelás crimes. She was a thug and a gangster and he was in prison during her ugly reign of terror. And I’m nit saying that he was any better. He seemed to be OK with his wife’s activities.
And now King Barry the incompetent one, Her Royal Thighness Madam Rodham and Michelle the Moocher are on their way to canonize him.
History will judge the man, be he terrorist, freedom fighter or savior of his nation, but as silly as it sounds, history is for the future, and like all history, it will be debatable, subject to discussion and especially disagreement. It seems to me we should let our grandchildren be the ultimate judges of Nelson Mandela's status, for by the time they are able, the world will have settled down around his charisma, and a more balanced view MAY be reached, let's hope so. One thing is for sure, South Africa needs to be ready for a backlash of one sort or another, but I just hope for a peaceful future for all.
Andie
Mustang, thanks...I totally agree with you, but perhaps my post and comment above sound different.
I mentioned that he dropped the ball terribly by allowing such crime to happen, and never educated the people in what they REALLY NEEDED: which was probably to realize how white Africa had thrived because of the ingenuity in mining natural resources like diamonds, etc...
As I told Bob above, I do NOT think Mandela was a good leader in the important things, but I did feel it important that the article Keller wrote does show he used communism pragmatically; that made sense to me, tho you might disagree.
Thanks for your thoughtful comment.
American Jihad..what's WITH you? We don't say we hate Mandela so suddenly we're "Singing Obama's praises?" WHAT??
Emily. Read the article.
Ducky, I rarely suggest that you're dumb, but get a grip; South Africa was apartheid...What the heck else was Israel to deal with?
Mindy? Does what I wrote sound like he was a saint?
Divine Theatre..Amen to that. I think you're wise. Let's hope S Africa SOMEHOW flourishes. It's probably not going to happen
I'll just add this REALLY unpopular and probably blog-killing comment (which is fine with me); Before we HATE, we should educate ourselves on all the points we hated. Make sure we're right.
Thanks.
CI...I'd missed the comment to which you refer...thanks, it's now deleted.
People like that are not welcome here.
BIG TIME. I do thank you.
I'm only leaving liberalmann's comment because it needs to be seen what he's about.
Bravo; he never lets us down, does he.
I just have to say one more thing;
To read my post and comments and suddenly for some to think I have fallen in awe of Mandela is scary.
I once said that watching the young blacks at the DNC as they wept that a black man had won the slot after Obama got nominated, made me emotional. That I could understand their joy on that level.
Know what response I got from a LOT of conservatives?
"what, you love Obama now?"
I had a feeling it would happen with my post today, but hoped not.
I, again, recommended reading the link ..and I recommended reading all my words; No, I'm not a big fan of Mandela, but I've certainly done enough research to understand more WHEN he would have been considered a communist (and why) and WHEN he was a 'terrorist' ..YEARS ago. He'd totally spoken against that.
As I said..he has done NOTHING for improving S Africa. Those he freed have done NOTHING to improve S AFrica.
The end of Apartheid was started with whites in power.
Nelson Mandela was a kind and loving man who cared deeply for his people and included whites in his government. So shoot him.
And me.
Read the link, educate yourself, those with the knee-jerk advice.
Thanks so much.
@Mustang:
Counting up Obaama's "successes" (on one hand)....I'd offer that Mandela's were the same. Zero? Radicalism, chaos, wealth distribution and racial hate are the crowning achievements of both as I see it.
We have yet to see O's follower resort to "necklacing" yet...but "knockout" games can be just as deadly. And he has his fawning acolytes fostering hate that I haven't seen since Montgomery, Alabama days.
We're certain that one is a Commie...we see that the other one does all he can to mask it....but his desires are the same. Putin even warned us about him.
Chômage chez le noirs d'Amérique est de 15 %. Chômage parmi les jeunes gens, âgés de 30 ans et au-dessous, est de 16 %. Ce sont les gens qui ont voté pour Barack Obama. Les Américains sont décevants pour moi.
You know what I'm starting to get?
there's no middle ground.
We HATE or we LOVE.
kind of scary.
@ Imp
Mr. Obama would not agree with you. He said he was intending to make fundamental changes to America, and so while we would judge him to be completely inept as a president, I believe he would say that he has achieved every one of his goals. What a dismal place America has become under this buffoon.
Who imagined 40 years ago that we would one day admire a Russian leader more than our own president?
Louis, mais...Mandela: je voudrais savoir ce que vous en pensez ...
Louis,
Pas tous les Américains ont voté pour Obama, mon ami. Moins de 1/3 des électeurs admissibles ont fait. Beaucoup d'Américains n'ont tout simplement pas voter.
Il est encore de l'espoir pour l'Amérique.
Mon français est très mauvais. Mes excuses.
Andie
Je vous remercie, Mme Z. Pour moi, il est typique des mouvements anti-imperial. Il reçut son éducation de la main des européens et armés alors que l'éducation, entreprises de détruire les européens. Il a été assez intelligent pour utiliser l'apartheid comme sa motivation, pour qui peut argumenter contre tels que chose ? Mais lui aussi est un homme tribal, et il ne se souciait pas pour ceux qui appartenaient à d'autres groupes. Si cela n'était pas vrai, alors les noirs d'Afrique du Sud serait tellement démunis maintenant ? Donc, je dois penser à lui comme un homme politique, comme ceux qui sont ici dans mon pays, qui disent ce qu'ils veulent devenir puissant, oui riche et trop. C'est mon avis.
I think there is a middle ground. It is where most people who elected Barack Obama live, politically. You know who I mean; the people who were mesmerized by the fact that the bright young candidate could actually walk and chew gum at the same time, who promised us hope and change after a few minor changes to America. Yes, we owe the people in the middle so much.
For his many positives. Including forgiveness and reconciliation, he was pro unlimited abortion. Gay marriage, etc.
An enigma to me.
My friend, OldNFO, posted no comment about Mandela.
I won't judge his terrorism without challenging Nenachem Begin's early career.
Z, "We HATE or we LOVE."
I understand what you're saying. I don't think it's like that though. I think it is we either understand what works - ?? % of America, or do not - 51% of America circa Nov, 2012 as based on election 'results' which may be total BS in themself..
But there are a great many people who think that if the rich are destroyed and government elevated that somehow all will be well.
Like pelosi, reis, or oBAMa could figure out how to work the french fry bin at McDonalds even, let alone keep America on the cutting edge or technology, pricing, standard of living, standard of Health Care - best in the world if you look at the correct metrics. etc etc etc ETC...........
So, it's easy to see that someone with a brain can appear to hate the racists, anti-Americans, and muslim activists we now have in charge. It's a very fine line indeed.
I mean, the people the left have speaking for them, juan williams, duck, assorted morons who praise the (Non)-economic recovery (looking at the publicly reported numbers makes that an easy conclusion) and it begins to look like we really ARE living in the environment of the movie Idiocracy ( a crappy movie, way over-caricatured ) but not looking too far out of touch in some cases...
The stupid people are quadrupling down on stupid and the smart people are stunned. In the end the stupid people are going to pay the larger price and blame it on the 'other side' but hey that's ok, as long as they suffer enough that some of them grow a brain.
Personally, I'd say the events in S Africa (purging the rich) is a prelude to future America. Don't tell the libtards tho and ruin the surprise.
PS - I would have said something about Mandela, but I know virtually nothing about him outside of what I've read in the last few days. And that's Ok with me. :)
Winnie Mandela is a babe! Beautiful, smart, enlightened and evolved.
And I'd even say that if she was white!
Kid, I wish more people would at least admit they are just knee-jerking about Mandela
...re the HATE or LOVE, I mean about someone like Mandela.
Republicans hear he was a communist years back, ignore the pragmatism of it (written about in the linked article I urged people to read), a terrorist even more years back, and HATE HIM BECAUSE HE WAS A COMMUNIST.
some seem to suggest Z's suddenly a big fan of Mandela's because I said he's a kind man who likes children, went to prison for all those years for his people,etc..........ah, well.
I'm usually not this disappointed.
BUT, HOWEVER...I'm REALLY disappointed that my comment didn't publish...
I'll try again (DARN)
Louis...un homme politique...c'est vrais...mais, un homme gentil et plus souci, plus attentione. que la plupart des gens, n'est ce pas?
Oui Madame, je suis sûr que c'est le cas.
Merci, Monsieur Louis!
Just ask my friend who escaped from Communist Czechoslovakia (circa 1978), at the risk of his life, who prospered briefly in South Africa. Then he had his assets frozen when the Communists took over South Africa. Although I've lost contact with Marion Kutka, I'd love it if he could comment here as to the wonderfulness of Communism! As everyone eulogizes your "Dearly Departed" just remember that the "Blacks" are not better off than ever and that even came from J.Jackson today!
Ducky said, "Bob, Israel was one of the few supporter of the apartheid government,"
Yeah. I forgot about that. Could it be that the South African government supported Israel?
Things get all confused when whoever is the friend of an enemy is automatically an enemy. I don't believe Israel's reasoning was racially based. As a matter of fact, the US was an ally of both countries. I don't believe that makes our nation racist.
Communist or not, I still respect a man that will tough out over 25 years in prison for people, not necessarily ideals. As well as I remember, there were some pretty nasty things going on from the ANC and the government. There were no angels in that fight.
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