Some of you participated in my post questioning the bill Obama's going to reverse which says a doctor is any longer protected by the law if he does not want to perform abortions.I saw this story on euthanasia today and wondered how soon doctors across America will have to kill the sick because they requested help dying. Washington State is going to allow "DIGNITY DEATHS."
Do you see the LANGUAGE? "DIGNITY DEATHS" Does that mean a person in terrible pain who feels, for whatever reason, that doing themselves in is not an option is not dying a "dignified death"?
It's sort of like a woman's "right to her own body" is the euphemism for "a woman killing her unborn child", isn't it. Sure SOUNDS great that a woman has a 'right to her own body', doesn't it? Sure it does. Very beguiling. But, with this euthanasia thing, why not call it the EUTHANASIA BILL? Scared to because it's too obvious and people might react badly to it?
And, imagine a doctor being told he MUST give someone a death cocktail? Imagine how dispirited a doctor might feel? Will we lose good men in the medical profession if more of America adopts this law?
Whatever you feel on the issue of Euthanasia (which I swear I thought was the Peace Corps in China until I actually saw it spelled!), the 'dignity deaths' phrase is such a typical liberal ploy.... WHO CAN ARGUE WITH THAT, right? Doesn't EVERYONE want DIGNITY?!!
Do you feel EUTHANASIA is a Left/Right issue, by the way? I'm truly curious.
z
50 comments:
Hi Z~ Very interesting question "Do you think euthanasia is a left/right issue?" I'm not sure it's left/right, but it seems to sort of fall that way. I am in complete agreement w/ your assessment about the language used by proponents of the bill - it sets up opponents as against "dignity", just like 'pro-choice' sets up opponents as against women's "choices". Very clever. One question, aren't MD's going against their Hippocratic Oath to administer 'death cocktail'? (Doesn't the Hipp. Oath say something about not doing 'harm' to patients?) Seems to me, inducing death is certainly 'harm'.
For that matter, abortion does 'harm' to a fetus, now doesn't it? Seems that abortionists are defying their oaths, too...hmmm...seems a slippery ethical slope for the medical profession. I'd like to hear a professional ethical opinion. Anyone?
Susannah...I was told that they don't administer the Hippocratic Oath anymore. I just read it's optional.
Here is the 'original', supposedly, from Wikipedia:
I swear by Apollo, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath.
To consider dear to me, as my parents, him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and, if necessary, to share my goods with him; To look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art.
I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.
I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.
But I will preserve the purity of my life and my arts.
I will not cut for stone, even for patients in whom the disease is manifest; I will leave this operation to be performed by practitioners, specialists in this art.
In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves.
All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret and will never reveal.
If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot.
Z: Believe it or not, this original had "no abortion" in it...and this: "I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked,"
No wonder it's optional...we've lost our bearings that badly...
This is another slippery slope. Whether it is proposed with good intentions or not, it will be abused.
As it is, a patient can say they do not want heroic measures taken should he/she become very ill.
How is a patient protected if they're alone in the world, with no family or friends to see that they are properly cared for, or not euthanized?
When government health care says that what ever care a patient receives must be cost effective, what does that mean? At what age does cost-effectiveness become the sole determining factor?
I think I know what it means. It means a lower quality of care. It means you're only as good as what you're worth to the system.
If you're eighty years old, and can be helped but that care might be costly, are you worth two or three more years of life? Your loved ones would think so, you might think so, but the system, might not.
If this administration has it's way, we will have government healthcare, and these decisions at some point will not be ours.
The immorality of taking people's lives will become gradually easier, it will be rationalized because it eases the costs of medical care.
It will be said that it spares people's suffering, when indeed it may be just a matter of saving the allmighty buck!
Pris
LIFe, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness. Just like Rush said in his speech at CPAC, all three ARE under assault by the left. How is this NOT a left/right issue? Life is a sacred gift from God. What's dignified about murder in the womb or suicide?
A lot of sales involves packaging. The left understands that better than the right does. A well presented lie will be believed by more than a poorly presented truth. Who can argue with every child a wanted child until you realize it's an excuse for murdering unborn children.
Z~ Great info here. I suppose I was referring to the "I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone." In my profession (mental health) the "do no harm" is paramount. I would be surprised to learn there's no emphasis on this in the medical profession...You're right - we've veered way off course, regardless.
Oh, & I'm posting some pics of our snow storm in a few minutes!! :)
Q: Will we lose good men in the medical profession if more of America adopts this law?
A: You can count on it. But Obamacare probably will have chased away most good physicians before they implement that mandate.
I am against euthanasia both morally and professionally. One of the issues that makes euthanasia seem like a viable option for some is that we treat death poorly. We need to do a much better job both spiritualy and medically to assist people with the dying process (I am not taking about inducing death). People are often afraid and in pain when they are dying. We should make them comfortable both with medication and counseling/spiritual guidance. I am a strong advocate for using a lot of pain medicine for someone who is dying even if it means it could hasten death, as long as that is not the intent. I know this is splitting hairs but intent really does matter.
Susannah, in my mind a provider cannot perform or assist with an abortion and stay true to our duty to do no harm. Abortion is the taking of a life. The ironic thing is the fact that a fetus is a living organism is a medical truism.
As far as how Obama feels about euthanasia, remember he appointed Tom Daschle. He wanted to ration health care for the elederly and people with terminal illneses. He said the elderly
"should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age,"
We will not only loose good doctors, but nurses as well. Imagine being the RN who is ordered by the doc to actually push the cocktail...
Pris and RightKlik...my insurance agent moved to Georgia and he called me this afternoon. He and his colleagues are all looking for other jobs..they reckon there won't be health insurance independent salesmen in six months. I think that's a little extreme, but they're not that far off. That's all they're talking about, according to him. Can't blame them.
Susannah..I'm still waiting for the snow pix!! (my cuz sent some from his home in CT..gorgeous!)
SHorpat, I've been saying this for months: It's the CHOICE OF WORDS the left is SO good at..so beguiling. It's very hard to convince Americans they're being SO DUPED when the Left sounds SO above the fray, SO well meaning........
and, really, all they're planning for our country almost feels demonic
Brooke, an RN should and, I hope, would refuse. It should be against everything we stand for.
Chuck, that touched me VERY much. YES "INTENT" is EVERYTHING....I, too, believe that VERY high doses of pain meds are the way to go...Some have SUCH dignity that they won't accept them because they don't want their last moments clouded..THAT isn't a 'dignified death'!?
Brooke and Chuck: Thank you! As professional nurses, it's excellent to have your input here.
Brooke's right; Imagine a nurse having to shove death into someone's vein. It makes me emotional, if you want to know the truth. It's so unfair.
Chuck, my own GYN who's retired recently, said "Z, how can I do abortions when I spend most of my practice helping women who want children to conceive?"
He was a very good man.
Z: I used to be an ER Tech; a nurse aid in an ER. Quite different from a nursing home as far as duties go, but I worked closely with the RN's and Docs and can sympathize!
Brooke, I worked as a tech when I was in school. It's a tough job.
Hey, in response to your comment - I've felt the same way. I pastor a house church, and it's amazing. Part of me longs for more people, and a 'real' church, but part of me feels/fears we're positioned in the church model of the 'future' either by our own will or by force.
Fantastic discussion here, folks! Z, I got sidetracked earlier, but came back to post pics. Having trouble w/ blogger tonight - not sure what's going on, but I'll turn into a pumpkin if I don't go to bed soon. (Have the pics saved in a draft. Will post tomorrow! Heck, by then, the snow will all be gone anyway!)
Matt, I'd like to hear more about your home church. Is there someone named Levi or is that the name you gave the group for worship?? Thanks for coming by.
Susannah..thanks, also, for coming by to tell me you'll have the pix on tomorrow. I'll look forward to them!
Z-I usually do not do this -it just is apropos to your comment here...from my blog...
Site List of Impending Dr.Assisted Homicides...Those Over 50 Should Be Afraid -Very Afraid!!!
You are old /50 + years old- or rather useless to your off-spring - Under proposed laws-(my take) - you are aborted or - rather- assisted in your suicide or --if you are 'out of it' - care-givers will do the convenient thing and allow you a painful death by dehydration!!
Fun Huh-
The aged Abortion crowd's 'chickens have come home to roost!'
Again - the above comments are my take and not the take of LA Lutherans for Life:
http://lalutheransforlife.org/information.htm
From you 'little ray of sunshine'
C-CS
that would be ----your 'little ray of sunshine' :-)
C-CS
Yes, it is a Left/Right issue - the culture of life versus the culture of death; the culture of real hope versus the culture of despair.
That's why Obama has to use the word "hope." Only a desperate person harps on about "hope." The rest of us ordinary folk accept hope as a fact of life and don't kill babies or sick people.
BTW You said on my blog that you wondered if I remembered you. How could I forget you?
Looks like I'm the odd man out on this issue. I am a firm believer in "No victim, No crime!" I do not believe the government has a right to protect me from myself.
I would probably never take advantage of it, BUT, I can think of situations where I might want to end it. No Doctor would have to do the deed. Just give me a loaded needle to stick into the tube I would undoubtably already have in me.
This is a tough one Z. I believe that we should be able to end it for ourselves, especially at that point where the agony of a terminal cancer or some other illness makes life (fill in the blank).
BUT
I also understand the bigger implications here. You wrote:
"I saw this story on euthanasia today and wondered how soon doctors across America will have to kill the sick because they requested help dying."
Your question was PERFECTLY on the mark. This is an integral part of the socialized medicine plan. Let's get those VERY expensive sickies and elders OUT OF THE WAY! It's happening in Europe right now.
It's all part of the plan for the nihilistic death cult we know as the political left.
Morgan
"Do you think euthanasia is a left/right issue?"
It is an issue that the left has by-and-large embraced while the right has by-and-large rejected.
Susannah got it right when she said, "...it sets up opponents as against "dignity", just like 'pro-choice' sets up opponents as against women's "choices".
Left/right issue or not, it is incredible to me that ANY civilized human being would take the position of condoning euthanasia. Period.
Lets face it, euthenasia is essential to socialized medicine. This will allow the State to forgoe paying for expensive medical treatments and it will become the duty of citizens with expensive life threatening diseases to do the right thing and "end the State's financial suffering" by offing themselves.
Then, processing the corpses into Soylent Green to stave off hunger from the inevitable crop failures resulting from agricultural collectivisation will be seen as the height of utilitarian practicality.
No. I am a strong supporter of Euthanasia. Because this country cannot get it together, Euthanasia is in my living will.
It reads to this effect:
Upon me being unable to be rehabilitated back to normal state due to mental conditions deteriorating; upon the indication that I am medically no longer capable of providing bodily function support, or need a machine to keep me alive;
Upon the instance where my family is being billed to death just to keep a vegetable that I have become alive;
I request that my family take me to the Netherlands and have me euthanized and my body donated to scientific cause.
Euthanasia ROCKS. I am totally 100% for it and I do not believe it should be a political issue.
OK, I'm a little confused; of course it could be the NyQuil from lastnight, but I'm confused none the less.
The left is for abortions and their for 'dignity deaths' but aren't they against the death penalty, too?
So, kill before their born and kill them when their sick, but don't kill them if they kill someone else?
A little help, people.
Blessings.
Dr. Kevorkian ring a bell, the medical community was outraged in the late 90's with Jack, if this is considered think of all the sick and people suffering from mental illnesses. Dignity Deaths is the same as assistance suicide.
CS, you're a ray, no matter what you write! thanks for the link and yes, you describe what obama's got up his sleeve regarding health insurance...
Patrick! Well, I hoped so...I felt silly after I wrote that at your place, but I'm so glad you're here!
And I very much appreciate your comment "only a desperate person harps on hope" because most normal people always have HOPE, don't we...interesting.
Average, Morgan...YOU end it for yourselves, how can any rational, loving person tell you NOT to? It's YOUR LIFE. But, don't make a doctor who doesn't believe in it kill you, right?
Joe, you're right. The Left uses words like DIGNITY so you can barely argue, though the actual point behind their DIGNITY is demeaning to those who do NOT make this choice. Very beguiling, their choice of words. "Homeless" "Undocumented" instead of BUMS and ILLEGALS...etc.
FJ...an integral part of socialized medicine? I believe you're right.
Steve! But, do you believe ANY DOCTOR HAS TO DO IT BECAUSE YOU SAID SO? Or, a doctor who has no problem with it? That's the biggest point here, I think. And, under O's health plan, would we lose very good men to medicine because of this?
I.H.S....who can argue with you there!? Exactly right.
Empty suit, do you know that's what the German media called obama after the hysteria had died down from his speech? Yup, but your media wouldn't tell you he was called empty suit!
Your point is excellent..the mentally ill will have to die, too..after all why pay for them?? (awful)
FJ: IT'S PEOPLE!!!
And you're right...
Brooke "PEOPLE"? everybody with any heart and soul knows you don't KILL PEOPLE because they're sick! :-)
Folks: Isn't there a difference between doing yourself in and insisting someone ELSE does, someone who doesn't agree with the intent?
Do you see the LANGUAGE? "DIGNITY DEATHS" Does that mean a person in terrible pain who feels, for whatever reason, that doing themselves in is not an option is not dying a "dignified death"?
--------------------------------
No, it means that your dying is a pretty damn personal choice.
It's a PERSONAL issue, got it?
Sorry to be the one who advocates free will here but you guys are always talking about freedom as if you had a clue.
good for you to address this z!.. all i will say it is so amazingly quick how "society" has changed! i am not that young to of forgotten how science patted itself on the back for the discovery of a life support machine. and this machine was created so as to keep people alive. presumably because most of us are scared to die. now that fear and want for life has seemed to of been removed in order to allow for assisted suicide. mankind must know something of death now that has alleviated his fear of it before i guess.
Ducky! YOu didn't read it AGAIN?
YOU can jump off a 100 story building for all I care (rhetorically speaking, of course)...but DO NOT ASK SOMEONE TO DO IT TO YOU, okay?
Pat...Since Obama, I think a lot of us aren't scared to die! (Smile)
But, of course, with this morning's news that he's told Russia "You put in the good word for us in Iran and we'll get rid of those pesky defense systems aimed to protect the West", we NEED to be scared.
Steve! But, do you believe ANY DOCTOR HAS TO DO IT BECAUSE YOU SAID SO? Or, a doctor who has no problem with it? That's the biggest point here, I think. And, under O's health plan, would we lose very good men to medicine because of this?
Heck no. There are doctors out there who would foul it up. They'd need to have the proper training and credentials before committing such an act. While Kavorkian had the right idea, I feel that he was not qualified to be involved with euthanasia.
We would lose a lot of good people if it went Obama's way, most definitely.
When I become terminally ill, suffer great pain and no longer have control of my life --- I WANT to DIE as QUICKLY as POSSIBLE.
Please, dear God, save me from the self-righteous DO-GOODERS who would deliberately and ruthlessly prolong my agony.
Included in my daily prayers are these words:
"Dear, God, I beg you that when it comes my death will be swift, merciful, and sure."
~ FreeThinke
Duck, as usual you are confusing issues to make some sort of point.
Suicide is a personal issue, ignoring religious and ethical issues.
Euthanasia is an act commited by someone else.
If I can be presumptuous to say what Z's post is about, it is about euthanasia, not suicide.
In keeping with this distinction, euthanasia is not entirely a personal choice because it involves someone else. In this case, a health care professional. The question was should a health care provider be required to commit this act?
The left loves to wrap any issue in the "choice" mantel, ignoring the fact that the choice often has consequences for someone else.
In euthanasia, what about the choice of the provider? Do they get a choice?
In abortion, what about the choice of the baby? This seems like a pretty important person to ask. Do they get a choice?
Finally, looking at both issues as interconnected, since the baby is in fact being euthanized, where is their choice on being euthanized?
Z, I meant to tell you about this before but I forgot. This
which I swear I thought was the Peace Corps in China until I actually saw it spelled!
from your post reminded of a cartoon I saw years ago. It was an old woman answering the door, her husband in the background, Jack Kevorkian was at the door with papers in his hand. The caption read something like "Honey it's that young man earlier from the Youths in Asia group" I found this so funny I still remember some 20-25 years later.
FT....you sound like you're saying we're the 'do gooders', which is totally misunderstanding the post. The post is that doctors shouldn't be forced to kill you. Just find one who will! What's the trouble!? PLENTY will, you know that.
I'm glad to see you're commenting ... and am glad to hear your eyes are improving!! all the best!!
Chuck, that IS funny! Well, it's true with me...I'd just never SEEN the word and didn't know what it meant! Sounded like Youth in Asia to ME!
A cartoon I saw about 25 years ago stuck in my mind, too....actually, 2 have.
One was a statue of liberty saying "I said 'give me your huddled masses, NOT your befuddled asses!" And I wasn't political then but liked it.
The other is Johnny Hart's BC and I STILL have it on my bulletin board here...the 'fat broad' takes the blonde's shoes.. You see her walking walking walking 'in those shoes'..finally she returns and says "Here are you moccasins...I STILL think you're a jerk" LOVE that!
Like those who hear what they want to hear, Ducky reads into things what he wants to read into them. Then he becomes the final arbiter of what people mean.
Why can't people see the difference between suicide and euthanasia? Could it be some kind of closed mindedness?
I think euthanasia should be carefully controlled lest it get out of hand.
Death is really not a personal choice - no matter what you think.
Death is what comes when God is good and ready, Sue.
It's a personal choice to do yourself in ahead of that time. That definitely is a personal choice, isn't it?
Right now it is ILLEGAL for doctors in the USA to "help" anyone commit suicide. There are many who would like to make the information as to how one can commit suicide quickly and painlessly unavailable.
A failed suicide attempt can leave a person in far worse condition than he was before he made the attempt.
I DO NOT believe that ANYONE should be FORCED to "help" someone commit suicide, but I do think it should be a CHOICE left to the DISCRETION of individual doctors and those most closely involved with the person who wishes to die.
I also very firmly believe that husbands, wives and other closely-related family members who answer the pleading of a loved one to be released from the AGONY of a hopeless EXISTENCE should be immune form prosecution.
Naturally, someone who wants to kill themselves for a frivolous reason (i.e. "She told me she doesn't love me anymore. I can't go on," or "I'm just so bored and depressed, I can't see why I should bother anymore," etc.) should be dismissed and not acted upon.
BUT those in great pain with no reasonable hope of recovery ought to be allowed to CHOOSE their fate.
Sorry! But that's what I believe. I've seen too much 'reality" to be able to think any other way at this point.
Love and best wishes to all.
~ FreeThinke
FT..thanks. I appreciate your words.
I agree...as LONG as NO DOCTOR must be forced to kill anyone. That's all!
z - I do not believe that death is a personal choice in any respect.
Sue, of course it is. It's just a wrong choice.
z - The depth of your knowledge may not be the same as others. Death is not ever a personal choice. Do not assume that what you know is what there is to know.
whatever, sue. FINE.
Because I could not
Stop for Death
He kindly stopped for me
The carriage held
But just ourselves ---
And Immortality.
We slowly drove ---
He knew no haste ---
And I had put away
My labor
And my leisure too
For his civility.
We passed the school
Where children played
Their lessons scarcely done
We passed the fields
Of gazing grain
We passed the setting sun
We paused before a house
Which seemed
A swelling of the ground ---
The roof was scarcely visible
The cornice but a mound.
'Tis centuries since then,
Yet each feels shorter
Than the day
I first surmised
The horse's heads
Were towards --- Eternity.
~ Emily Dickinson
Posted by FT
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