On the NY site of 9/11, they're building a new tower, 1776 feet high. It was to be called the FREEDOM TOWER, but that's been changed because some say that "the 102-story Freedom Tower's name could make it more susceptible to future attacks than a symbol of defiance against it."Former Gov. George Pataki had named the tower "Freedom Tower" in a 2003 speech, adding that "visitors to the iconic skyscraper will know our determination to overcome evil."
This week, "the owners of ground zero publicly parted ways with the Freedom Tower name, saying it would be more practical to market the tallest building in New York as the former north tower's name, One World Trade Center."
WHAT DO YOU THINK? Freedom Tower or One World Trade Center? Do you think that changing the name will make it less susceptible? Is changing the name just yet another way of bowing to terrorists? Do they win?
z
186 comments:
I think they should leave the crater in the ground.
For the same reason they should not put a Wal-Mart on Little Round Top at Gettysburg.
Good point, beamish...
But if they insist on building something there - I don't have a loved one whose grave site that ground is - it absolutely, positively should be named Freedom Tower. Why else would you build something there, if not to stand in absolute defiance! One World Trade Center is reminiscent of "I'm a citizen of the world," a la candidate Obama running for President in Berlin... UGH!
Good to see ya, Z!
Well it could become a public park and non denominational chapel but Kapital must be served.
Bloomberg can call it his momma for all I care.
Good to see YOU, Susannah!
I couldn't agree with you more..so well said.
Beamish...there is supposed to be a park in that area but I'd have made it the whole exact original footprint of the two towers.....I know it's expensive ground to let sit idle but THIS would be someplace I would approve spending tons of money. The gov't, in my opinion, owed nobody ANYTHING for having been a surviving family member, but THIS the gov't should have ponied up with bucks for...make a park, a beautiful place with trees, to show the monsters we're respecting it as a grave site and have made a beautiful place out of their utter ugliness.
I agree with Beamish. Honestly, I don't want to see any more Americans leaping to their deaths from the 80th floor. Just don't.
Ducky, I wrote my spiel then read yours. Yes, Kapital must be served but money isn't everything (to say the least) and a park (and a chapel?) is something gov't money should have been spent on.
Bloomberg does suggest anybody will call it what they will and, probably, most New Yorkers have become used to Freedom Tower, anyway. I'm not sure he had "momma" in mind, but...!
I just think that acquiescing to the formal name is wrong, personally....FREEDOM TOWER ....Let Freedom ring.
Mustang, that is the one site in the WORLD I believe NONE of us ever want to see again. Anyone who doesn't have that burned into their consciousness never saw it or has no heart. and that takes a lot for me to say.
makes me well up just thinking about it.
Ugh. Personally I'm sick of naming and renaming things in the attempt to make EVERYBODY happy all the time. I don't care what the terrorists think. Leave the name the same and throw the Freedom that they loathe so much in their faces. If the government would wise up to the issues and the wide open borders, we wouldn't have to worry what the terrorists think.
I wrote on this today and I have a different take. I think naming it the World Trade Center is being defiant to the terrorists. They can knock it down, we rebuild it. They can knock us back a step, we're still standing.
Lovely..good points.
Chuck, I had considered this, too. It's another excellent viewpoint.
I'd been in those towers and swore I never would again. You could paint your finger nails(well, YOU couldn't, well you COULD, but..!) and they'd be totally dry by the time you made it up to the Windows on the World restaurant. And then, looking out those windows? TORTURE. I'm not fond of heights..except THAT HIGH almost made it seem like they'd plastered aerial shot photos on the walls instead of the fact that you're actually seeing THAT FAR DOWN and THAT far away.
I'm sure I mentioned this once before on the site, but my cuz was involved with a NYCity magazine and she took me to dinner there and I met the Gen. Mgr., a Swiss guy, very elegant and charming, and I said "I have to tell you that art over there on the wall is very unsettling...it's like a globe on fire and one hates to think of fire when one's on the uptydumpth floor of any building" He said he'd had frequent comments and they were taking it down some time soon.
I always wondered if he made it.
I pray he did.
Anyway, Yes, naming it the same thing isn't a bad idea, either..it's very defiant...but that should have been presented from the get-go; don't change it now as if "we're more frightened NOW than ever, AL Qaeda, you moderate good guys you!?" (barf)
Freedom sure is taking a beating these days.
I guess they don't want to offend the tyrants and dictators of the world! Is nothing sacred anymore?
Ducky, if there's anything you respect and truly care about besides your political ideology, I'd be curious to know what that is.
Pris
I do see your point on changing it late in the game. I just hope we're doing it for the right reasons, to make a stand instead of to appease. I do agree with a commenter on my site in that we should have rebuilt this long ago.
As far as the people who lost their lives there, we do need to honor them. Maybe one way would be to win this War On Terror (I'm still using this name, Obama can go to Hell) and make certain no one else suffers their fate.
Oh and i doubt very much that the likes of quacky will be so accepting of it.
I personally would have preferred to see the WTC rebuilt but built 10 stories higher in defiance of the freedom haters.
IMO, the towers should have been brought up to modern code and built EXACTLY AS THEY WERE.
I like the new name.
I guess I've burned out by all the "limited edition 9/11 commemorative coins" (made from the real dental silver and jewelry of dead office workers!!) that the motive for rebuilding the towers is tainted to me.
No, a hole in the ground is a perfect reminder of the evil of that day.
No band-aids, please.
Off topic: By some unknown trick of Blogger I do not understand, the Crank Files blog is back again.
Z,
I agree with Beamish and Mustang. That hole in the ground is a grave. Leave it as a reminder of what evil will do. There is something about people shopping or conducting capitalism on that site that bothers me.
I look at this completely differently. I see 9/11 as God's judgment against America and the targets that were hit and almost-hit as symbols of our defiance of Him that He will only hit harder the next time -- trade/money, military, executive leadership. He was not acknowledged on 9/11 except by a very very few pastors -- it was all "God bless America" instead of repentance -- and to rebuild would simply be to continue our act of defiance -- against God. I wouldn't be surprised if the new building is hit again very soon -- or more likely the whole nation will be so devastated by that time because of God's judgment it will never be rebuilt anyway.
Ick.
God schmod.
9/11 wasn't God's judgement against America anymore than my living with an f-ed up childhood was God's judgement on me, and I shudder to think there are still churches in the world teaching and preaching that crap.
Three thousand people had to die violently so that God's message could reach the ears of the masses.
Why don't you email us instead, God?
The World Trade Center (aka the Twin Towers) was a blight on the skyline of New York. I'm glad it's gone, because it should never been there in the first place. I'm only sorry that three-thousand innocent people had to die in order to rid my home town of this architectural atrocity
I had hoped they'd never put ANYTHING in it's place, but if they must, why not do something original with genuine artistic flair like a gilded tower shaped like an muscular arm extended as if directly from the bowels of the earth topped with a huge Golden Hand giving the unidigit salute to Allah.
If we have to call it anything it should be called DEFIANCE PLAZA, and have DEATH TO ISLAMIC TERRORISTS inscribed prominently in quasi-Arabic-style letters on the frieze around the top floor.
A Christian Church and a Jewish Synagogue should occupy equal spaces off the ground floor entrance. corridor.
~ FreeThinke
CJ, when Andrea Yates drowned her five children, was that God's judgement against the children?
When Jews were slaughtered by the Nazis, was that God's judgement against the Jews?
When Japan bombed Pearl Harbor with no provocation, was that God's judgement against the U.S.?
I could go on, but suffice it to say, you get the idea.
When is it that victims are not judged by God as at fault, for their own misfortune. Since you seem to have personal knowledge of this, I really want to know. Is it possible that evil acts are just that, evil acts?
Pris
Pris, NOTHING happens without God, nothing. As Jesus said to Pilate, he could have no power against Him at all without God's allowing it. As it says in Amos 3:6, If there is calamity in a city shall the Lord not have done it? We can't always know the reason for a particular calamity, but there is never any doubt that He could have stopped it, so if He didn't He has His reasons, whether we like them or not. 9/11 really doesn't take much interpretation though. This nation has been falling away from God for decades.
Presidents used to call for days of repentance and prayer, especially during times of crisis, that doesn't happen any more, and we murder unborn babies by the millions in the name of the state and that's just ONE of our offenses. We're ripe for judgment. There is no way 9/11 was not judgment and since the nation has not repented, more is coming.
The economic crisis is already judgment, Obama's getting the Presidency is already judgment, and so on and so forth and it's only going to get worse.
There's no point in getting into this in depth as we'd just argue post after post, but of course there's a lot more theology to it. I may take it up on my own blog but not here. People need to know this, though. I wish they'd wake up.
NONE of this has anything to do with those who died in that catastrophe. I'm not talking about God judging THEM, but the Nation, since what was hit was major symbols of our national life. As for the individuals, He decides when it's time for someone to die and there is no doubt some went with Him and others were judged, but I have no idea which were which and it's none of my business. We mourn them anyway.
I agree, FT. I thought the WTC buildings were absolutely horrendously ugly. I felt that from the moment they were built, and I'm glad they're gone. Not that lives were lost but that the monstrosities are gone.
We don't need any more tokens of religion in this country, no more symbols of this being a "Christian" country and all that, no more churches. The churches aren't right with God with few exceptions. It's getting right with God that's needed. It isn't going to happen by the looks of it. So more judgment is coming.
CJ,
It's stuff like you're saying above that makes it more comfortable for me to be agnostic, if not hostile towards religion altogether. If there is a God, and he acts like that, we should be doing everything in our power to hunt down and kill the sadistic little petty egomaniac.
Oh, and you can count on God judging the perpetrators of the crimes too, even those He uses in prosecuting His judgment. The Islamofascists are not going to get off without punishment, same as the Nazis aren't. It's clear in the OT that God brought pagan nations against His own people in judgment, but He also said He is going to judge them in turn.
And I don't think in terms of judgment when it comes to children. It may be that they are much better off not going through this life. I think that can sometimes be the case. And God himself says in scripture that He doesn't always take people out of this life for reasons of sin, but to protect them from worse to come. It's impossible to judge things on that scale.
But on the scale of an attack on a nation, scripture is clear that God also judges tribes and nations as entities in themselves. Our laws and our leaders represent the nation as a whole.
I get the impression you don't read the Bible much, Pris, am I right? But then sometimes people do know the Bible at least to some extent and still make up fairy tales about God.
I know, Beamish, God's judgment is not a popular subject. But it's part of His character and it's the reason we need to be saved. You can't have the salvation message without the message that we are all facing God's judgment in this life and in the hereafter. Then you can appreciate that He sent His onlybegotten Son to die in your place for your sins so that you don't have to suffer that wrath in eternity. A God without wrath is a God without mercy.
You don't think God should punish nations that support abortion and the whole roster of sins that conservatives are decrying all the time? Human beings are sinners. No judgment, no righteousness.
CJ,
Your version of God is a robber in a back alley asking for your praise in return for no bullet in your head.
I'll pass.
[Sorry... I've been a bit theologically intolerant lately. I'm back at my default "no innocent must die for my sins - I'm personally responsible" mode. I don't need to buy fire insurance from an arsonist.]
I won't argue it further here, as this topic always gets out of hand and has gone too far already I'm sure. If anyone wants to discuss it further, I've posted on it at one of my blogs.
I find beauty in the Buddhists of Afghanistan that to this day ponder the nothingness in the mountainside alcoves at Bamyan where the Taliban blew up their ancient Buddha carvings.
There is more substance to their beliefs than all of the "let's rebuild the Twin Towers to spite them" symbolists put together.
I think of Job. After God and Satan were done with their pissing match over Job's loyalties, God replaced everything in Job's life with twice as much as he lost...
...except for his children. Seems God's not good at replacing people.
No CJ, I don't read the Bible much, not since I was a girl. I don't make up fairy tales about Him either.
Neither do I use God to make my own judgements, or to make excuses for myself or others.
This is very personal for me, and I choose not to discuss it further here.
Pris
Thanks for knowing when to stop folks. Worked out very well.
We had people for dinner and I'm sorry I missed the conversation...
it was a good one..
thanks so much for weighing in.
To answer the questions:
Freedom Tower or One World Trade Center? Freedom Tower.
Do you think that changing the name will make it less susceptible? No!
Is changing the name just yet another way of bowing to terrorists? Absolutely
Do they win? For now, yes.
I agree with Beamish. The crater would have more meaning and force people to see just what the Wahhabists are capable of.
this is the picture perfect example of liberalism at work!!... undecisive utopic attitudes creating a chaotic muddled mess!!... the sad thing is obama's foreign policy mimmicks this rediculousness. but instead of a "name" being affected, human lives will be!!
No name is going to change anything about whether this tower gets hit in the future or not.
Having said that, the people who have whined about someone possibly hitting it again, if it is called Freedom Tower, must be cry babies.
Honestly, who cares. If it gets hit again, then it does.
And we will re-build it, yet again.
Sometimes, the action is what matters.
The mere fact this structure is going right back up into the air is an act of asserting ourselves.
1776 feet tall, that works for me.
The statement is made . Yes, this is a questionable act, because of the human loss on the site, and it is a type of mass grave.
You know, if one really is into the wrath and fire of God, then think about this: maybe the loss of human life here is the sacrifice.
WVDOTTR
"The mere fact this structure is going right back up into the air is an act of asserting ourselves."
Exactly. And asserting ourselves instead of humbling ourselves before God is exactly what we're doing wrong about this whole mess.
Cj, do you think that we can do both? I do.
No, Z, I don't. Self-assertiveness and self-humbling are opposites.
Pris,
I agree with you. I've never been comfortable trying to out-God the other person.
And all I save to say about any of this is "Horse Shit."
I think much of the world eats because America grows their food or buys their trinkets so they can afford food, even as we forgive debt after debt from them.
God's wrath on America would starve a third of the Earth.
beamish, I'm thinking that God's not real happy with the rest of the world, either and He likes being happy...(!) As my buddy, Orson Bean, says "When I became a believer, my pastor buddy said 'orson, get on your knees when you pray'. I said 'why on my knees?' and my buddy said 'He likes it'"!! cracks me up.
I was the doubter of the century for YEARS, Beamer... "But, what kind of God would condemn every Indian in India to hell for not believing in Him? Why doesn't he just make us believing in him and save us ALL a lot of trouble AND a big risk!?"
Now that I'm old and wise and just too damned much has happened which speaks to me and convinces me lately (to me, personally, unbelievable), I get the distinct impression he's like us...he wants US picking HIM, tho HE did the picking before we were born. He likes that! "Hey, he LIKES me!" :-)
End of lecture. SAY HALLELUJIAH AND AMEN, BROTHER !(SMILE) xxx
xx the knees work.
Anonymous..May I quote you?
heh
"God's wrath on America would starve a third of the Earth."
Could happen.
And your point is?
Hostility masquerading as holiness is deadlier than any of the seven deadly sins. Doctrinaire self-righteousness is responsible for 90% of the murders committed throughout history.
If it weren't for "self-assertiveness," we would still be flopping around in on the mud flats or swinging from tree to tree scrambling for nuts and berries.
Without "self-assertiveness" nothing would ever have been built, written, sung, played or celebrated. We would have no language and no semblance of Civilization.
Without "self-assertiveness" life, itself, soon would cease to be.
~ FT
The French have a saying about the God of Wrath, Vengeance and Retribution. I think it's apt.
"If God is, He is not good; if God is good, He is not God."
~ FT
FT...can you explain that French statement? I don't quite get it..?
thanks.
It's silly to think that the name of the tower will make any difference about whether it might be attacked.
Hi, Z,
It's a very cynical point of view, but very "Gallic" at the same time --- like thee famous "Gallic Shrug.".
I don't subscribe to it, myself, but there are times when I have to admit that I do wonder.
All it means is this: If there is a Supreme Being who is all-powerful, He can't be a good guy, because so many terrible things keep happening to innocent people all over the world. On the other hand, if He exists at all, it's very likely that He doesn't really have the power we like to believe He has.
Now for me faith, itself, is its own reward, and I don't expect God to solve all my problems anymore than I would expect the government to make life one continuous joyride. (;-x
I believe we are here to SOLVE problems, and that God gave us Intelligence, ambition and initiative so that we could.
It is --- as anyone can see from taking a look at the long sweep of history --- a process that consumes thousands, even millions, of years.
Our job, as I see it, is to use the gifts that God gave us to improve the circumstances in which we live both for ourselves and others.
I just put these "prickly points" up in hopes of sparking a good discussion. I don't necessarily believe every word I post, but I do believe that all points of view, however strange, ought to be considered.
Hope that clarifies it for you?
~ FT
"If there is a Supreme Being who is all-powerful, He can't be a good guy, because so many terrible things keep happening to innocent people all over the world. On the other hand, if He exists at all, it's very likely that He doesn't really have the power we like to believe He has."
You're a very smart man, FT, but your answer above is why some of us keep saying to study the bible with a biblical scholar.
This is just plain...
Well, if God is small enough to understand, he's not big enough to worship; let's just leave it there!
WOW
My point is a lot of "end times" prophecy speaks of 1/3 of the world dying from starvation.
Take American food exports off the market and that is likely what would happen.
In that vein, maybe "God's judgement on America" is as inevitable as the period at the end of this sentence.
Z,
I'm a disgruntled Christian, not an anti-Christian.
I believe in God, or at least the existence thereof.
Not many people know (and certainly none could tell) that I once considered becoming a minister. I've always been fiercely interested in theology and the metaphysical.
But, when I look over my life's struggles from childhood abuses as a whole; repressed, horrible memories and all, I have difficulty with the idea that my loving God watched. And didn't lift a Finger.
I'm probably not the best person God should ask a favor from.
But then, CS Lewis' Problem of Pain adequately keeps me out of living in the "atheist camp" although I've wandered into it many times.
Beamish...it's nuts to believe in God when we're in pain and hurt, isn't it.
CS Lewis is a good antidote (and anecdote, come to think of it) for atheism...I agree. BOY, have I gone to him over the years "If a guy THAT smart and THAT doubting can finally believe, then.... I need to read up again on WHY...and MAN, why do I STILL need to read Lewis? WHEN am I going to GET IT and not need it? DO I BELIEVE or WHAT?"
YOu know all the standard sayings about suffering and God, so I wouldn't insult your intelligence by going into platitudes (which some people did with ME, I must say), just suffice it to say that nothing happens for nothing, Beamish...
Like the great CS once wrote a man who later wrote "A Severe Mercy" (my favorite Christian 'you can't read this and not believe' testimony book...all true, all astonishing), "Well, you who question God...your questions show you're caught in the Spirit's web, so you might as well give in...He's got you and you can't escape!" I love that. He picks US, Beamish. He picked me and He's picked you.
Give it up. When I did, things went so much better. man, SO SO SO much better. I swear. Not that bad things haven't happened, but...never 'as bad'. not anymore, because they're still bad but I'm not as freaked every single time...and then it gets better.
i promise.
i love you, Beamish, you big lug.
We are here to learn how better to THINK and ACT more contructively. We are not here merely to repeat phrases that others have written. God gave us MINDS, therefore He wants us to USE them.
I'd rather be burned at the stake than give up that absolute conviction.
He who never doubts is disconnected from Intelligence. If God had wanted to create a race of obedient automata, He would have done so.
Faith without works is DEAD.
Faith and works together without LOVE is the antithesis of godliness. It is VANITY and HYPOCRISY.
Wherever there is an absence of LOVE (and I don't mean SEX!) there is an absence of Spirit --- of Life, itself.
It's all about constructive ACTIONS motivated by LOVE. It is never about mere "words."
It is never about pointing our fingers and excoriating the flaws we perceive in others.
"The Kingdom of God is WITHIN you."
~ FT
FT. Do you ever read the scripture?
just about everything you say is refuted there, but your opinions are beautiful.
I've talked about doubt a million times on my blog and you know it. I'm not idiot kool aid drinker, so please don't even...
Hebrews tells us there's a time when we go from baby food to mature adult food.
It might not be quite as palatable at first, but it teaches and instructs and matures in magical, unbelievable, unexpected ways.
xxx me
Dear, Z,
I've been steeped in the Church all my life, and I mean from infancy. I served the church in a professional capacity for forty years. I did that out of love and devotion. It certainly wasn't because of the money. ;-)
The way people have perceived what is written in the Bible is as varied and diffuse as the number of hairs on the collective heads of all the nations.
You know how I feel about you, I hope, so please don't draw unflattering inferences from what I say from time to time. None is ever intended.
As you know, we have a good friend who embraces an extreme, severe, often-alienating --- even isolating --- view of God's Word. How could that possibly be a healthy desirable thing?
It saddens and perplexes me deeply.
I'm happy for you that you have found the blessings of faith and Christian fellowship, but it just doesn't work the same way for every individual no matter what is "written." Christianity is not formulaic.
If that were not true, the world would have united in Christian love a thousand years ago, and all Schism, conflict and oppression would have ceased by now.
Obviously it hasn't. I find much to criticize in the history of the Church and much to be ashamed of in the behavior I have found in various churches where I have lived and worked. Nevertheless, I would hate to see the Church die before the world has the chance to know and experience the beauty of holiness I have found so often in worship.
I'm painfully aware that the world is plunging toward an unfathomable pit of darkness and despair, because the Church is trying to be "socially conscious" and is no longer in fact a church at all.
If I said what I really think about some of the enthusiastic endorsements of what-I-know-to-be-decadence, self-indulgence, extreme irreverence and the callous dismissal of things I know to be of the highest caliber in liturgical practice, I would only cause aggravation and become as alienated and deeply resented as our misguided friend.
Irritating people to no constructive avail is surely not a good or godly thing.
So, I guess it's time for me to be quiet --- for a while.
If you find beauty in some of my statements, that is cause for me to rejoice, because Beauty and Truth are one and the same.
Your friend,
~ FT
FT, Why insist on your point when you know exactly how I feel? I know how you feel, too, but you write as if THAT'S IT, FT HAS SPOKEN and YOU ARE AN IDIOT FOR NOT CATCHING ON. YOU ARE AN IDIOT FOR BELIEVING WHAT THE BIBLE SAY...and that's nuts!
I just can't believe in a God who says one thing and condones the interpretations of others which contradict him. Why would he have bothered to send His son, get this bible somehow written, etc?
Yes, we're friends and I'm glad of that and love that you're at geeeZ, I really do....but if I dare to tell my opinion, too, please respect it as I do yours. I know very well I might sound like I'm calling you on your viewpoint, but I"m not. I KNOW how you feel...
It's just that if you're a Christian, the only thing that informs you, the ONLY THING, is the Word, not BEAUTY found in a poem. Not about Christianity, anyway..
I do appreciate the beautiful things you find in the bible and your lovely words and that you pray, I'm very happy about that...but there ARE moral absolutes. Or at least God says there are. Who am I? xxx
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