Monday, May 17, 2010

Christians have "played a strong role" in patriotic wars?

Ducky, in a comment here at geeeeeZ, takes out the snippet in bold italics below from James Carroll's column in today's Globe.

"In the secular age, as religion was marginalized, its role as a source of meaning, purpose, and transcendence was largely taken over by the myth of nationalism. The nation-state became a main source of identity, prompting sufficient devotion in citizens to die or to kill. Where religious wars were always primitive and immoral, national wars were patriotic and just. Today, the tie between citizens and the state is tattered, even in America, which, in its democratic liberalism, was nationalism’s greatest success. The hollowing out of US institutions, from a Congress in the grip of political paralysis, to an extravagantly funded Pentagon that cannot defeat enemies whose bombs are made with fertilizer, to an economic regulatory system that has no influence, much less control, over financial predators — all of this suggests a breakdown not just of government, but of the national idea. Meanwhile, patriotism has become an exercise in hatred."

Ducky adds this:

Seems the religious right has played a strong role in this sad state of affairs, primarily through their stealth Calvinism.

As I commented to him in response, Carroll shows much naivite and misinformation which only seems used here to fuel Ducky's unrelenting hate-Protestants mantra.........
Any thoughts?
z

70 comments:

Ducky's here said...

You are going to have to move in pretty mysterious ways to avoid taking responsibility fr the conflation of religion (and by assumption on the right, Protestantism) and America as a God ordained nation state.

Hasn't worked out well.

beamish said...

I don't recall a Nazi-Protestant Concordat, Ducky.

Z said...

Ducky, give it up..........this isn't about Calvin or God, this is about a journalist foaming at the mouth about how harmless terrorism is and how dangerous Christians are. Get a life.

FrogBurger said...

I so disagree with the paragraph stating the breakdown of the national idea . I think nationalism is on the rise instead of patriotism. You can see it in Europe where nationalism is a reaction against the EU and problems related to immigration and Islam. I also think patriotism is evolving towards nationalism in the US. It's a natural evolution as the US is a young nation.
The more globalization, the more centralization of powers, the more people want to get closer to their origins, roots and communities. Basic human nature instincts.

Susannah said...

Z said, "this isn't about Calvin or God, this is about a journalist foaming at the mouth about how harmless terrorism is and how dangerous Christians are."

Um yeah...

Oh! I forgot to mention in my children's Sunday school, we're teaching a series on how to convert others to Methodism via homicidal-bomber-martyr approach. It's called "John Wesley's Kill & Die for the Faith: Feel your heart & chest cavity 'strangely warmed' "

Not.

Z said...

Beamish, see Susannah's comment....I think there is at least a Methodist Concordat that breeds terror (smile)

Good one, Susannah xxx
And let me just mention here that your blog's pictures today are so beautiful, your garden, home, etc...people ought to give themselves a treat and look!

FrogBurger, I think you could very well be right..It's why Le Penn was doing well in France while I was there...people don't want to feel their country's being taken over. It IS human instinct to want to continue your country's culture and how I wish the liberals would stop thinking that's a bad thing, that nobody HATES ANYBODY on the outside because countries want to preserve their own!
This isn't about immigrants coming into contribute and enjoy a new place anymore! This is about coming in and RUINING that country, and when libs wake up and finally ADMIT THAT (and I"m generalizing but not much), this world has a chance.
I admire France, Germany, Italy...with all their immigrants, you'll NEVER HEAR "For French, press 1"...TRUST ME. Nor will you find more than a sign or two that says anything in English. Felicitations

I'll also add that Christians HAVE played a strong role in patriotic wars....they've DIED for our country and others....that's QUITE A ROLE.

Ducky's here said...

Funny, z, you always tell me to read (i.e. agree with you) but you haven't got what Carroll is about.

"Wherever one looks, there are collapsed structures of meaning. Biology is obliterating ancient definitions of sexuality, reproduction, and mortality. Computer technology is transforming the very way humans think. Moral categories crumble. So why shouldn’t religions be in crisis? And if some people use devotion as a means of escape, who can blame them? But in truth, the old divide between secular and sacred has itself lost significance. The human race is at sea, cut loose from all moorings. Yet this condition can mark the end of hubris. Indeed, this condition — Genesis calls it “darkness upon the face of the deep’’ — is the one in which real religion had its start."

We need a rebirth.


Beamish and Susannah seem to have gone off in the ozone together, how nice.

Congratulations to Froggy on an intelligent and challenging reply.

FrogBurger said...

Z, my mom and my best friend voted National Front at the last elections and they're very moderate. They just can't take it anymore: EU and immigration for welfare that turns into bus-burning suburbs and more burkas.

Ducky, you made my day.

Z said...

Ducky, you mean a 'rebirth' of faith?
You seem to love God every bit as much as I do if I'm to believe your non-blog profile, but yet you cut away at all He says.
If you mean rebirth of faith, you know I couldn't agree with you more.
And, we need faiths which don't attack others with murder for not believing, i.e. islam. And, please don't tell me Christianity's about that, okay? And, if you do, provide me New Testament Scripture.

We are changed as a society, mostly because people have not championed the Judeo Christian tenets.......This isn't reason to give it up and turn into a socialist society which awards nothing of the human spirit...which takes away liberties! It should be quite the contrary except welfare, ignoring laws, etc etc, have made Western society soft and I still don't think we give in even having become so soft and reliant on government as it tries to kick God out of everything in our country.....we fight hard for what we believe in...which is why I blog.

Z said...

FrogBurger, while living in Paris, I saw something nobody sees here...Here, we see insurrections of muslims burning cars in the city...there, they have burning of cars EVERY SINGLE NIGHT, EVERY EVERY NIGHT, in the suburbs, apparently, that doesn't count? People have trouble in the beautiful countryside villages getting from their car to their home at night, fearing muslim 'youth' and being hurt for their wallets!
I suppose the media doesn't want this known; I have finally begun to wonder if it's not just sheer liberal media naivite but some bizarre muslim hold over this country....threatened nukes we know nothing about but our WH does? Threats to Bush and Obama's families? Threats because muslims own television and newspapers here now and demand they produce what muslims want us to hear? I'm really starting to wonder because the left just CANNOT be this naive that they feel we shouldn't know the truth.

Mustang said...

Religion was marginalized by leftist commentators cleverly disguised as journalists; people who remarkably share a similar ideology with Ducky and Uncle Joe Stalin—both of whom fervently hate the United States of America and anyone who ever attended a religious service.

The communist argument is inane: how does one separate themselves from their principles and values? We cannot expect Christians to renounce their beliefs any more than we expect Islamacists to renounce theirs. It is amazing to me how the loony leftist demands that conservatives renounce their values, while championing the rights of Elena Kagan (et al) to hers.

Religion, patriotism, and nationalism are not boogey men unless you happen to be a dyed-in-the-wool communist who fervently believes it is right, fair, reasonable, and practical to enslave people to the will of government. A true American patriot will champion less government, not more. A true American patriot will become a nationalist whenever his home land is attacked or his countrymen subjected to terrorism ... and he will do these things while standing firmly upon deeply held principles.

We ought to wonder if we are nearing a full circle. We began our period of enlightenment under the thumb of despots; now quite suddenly we find ourselves listening to communists tell us we need more government, government knows best, that any self-respecting patriot should step up and give the government whatever the government demands. It is in this way that the true nature of Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, and Ducky reveal themselves: they have achieved idiocy in their own time.

frogBurger said...

Z you're being a bit dramatic but there are problems in major cities and yes, small crime is prevalent. My mom never leaves the house without clothing the shutters of the house and setting the alarm because she's close to a suburb. Many people got robbed in her 600-people village.

At the root of the problem is the economic situation created by welfare and social programs.

And we're seeing the same thing here in CA. Same policies, same results.That's what the left describes as "social justice".

Ducky's here said...

z, here's my view on religion. All religions are not equal, or at least they don't necessarily lead to the same conclusion, but all have one thing in common: the situation on this mortal coil is troubled and organized around sorrow.

So I approach religion as something that can be at the very least a healing force in the present if not necessarily a corrective. Christ is the example of how to live. I find that example in a branch of the Catholic church you would call leftist.

It DOES NOT allow for singling out America as a realized example of how to conduct ourselves on earth and we ARE NOT a privileged nation in any way. Just bozos on the bus like everyone else.

I do believe it is impossible to follow Christ with the contemporary right wing philosophy. I do find Carroll's writings on religion resonate with me.

I abhor fundamentalism of all stripes although the adherents are often decent and sincere people.

Ducky's here said...

At the root of the problem is the economic situation created by welfare and social programs.

--------------

Oh my, facts not in evidence, Froggy.

Ducky's here said...

Religion was marginalized by leftist commentators cleverly disguised as journalists; people who remarkably share a similar ideology with Ducky and Uncle Joe Stalin

---------
Hyperbole of the sort that only serious religious or military indoctrination (or both in this case) can produce.

Z said...

FB..what's 'dramatic' about what I wrote? I'm just telling the truth that we heard on Paris news every single night. Nothing more than that.
"Suburbs", "villages"..same thing. Les Bonlieues (SP?)...it's bad there.
And all Americans hear is when the big cities are having problems, not the constant troublesome 'youth'. We need to know that so we prepare here.

Ducky, thanks for such a civil answer...You can't imagine how much I appreciated that and have considered what you wrote.
See, I believe Christianity is THE only way. I could never follow a Christ who lied and, let's face it, since the Bible is the only information for Christianity, how can you pick and choose and decide what you think Christ really said or didn't, right? (not you, personally...I should say "one" not "you", sorry)

Christ is ALL about belief in HIM ONLY ("I am the Way, the Truth and the Life"...ONLY THROUGH ME...does one get to the Father..)
Also, He has said "There will always be poor among you"...
While we're to help all we can, and I sincerely believe that, we are not to give to where we are in desperate need ourselves for having given everything we had away..and government taxing us to death for illegals, etc., does not fall under GIVING in the way He wants.. “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”
I believe it's giving to God when we personally give to others who need our help. And that this country was better when we applauded Christians who did this, and they did more in the days when they were not shamed into thinking church is ridiculous and for weaklings. (I believe our churches have failed there, too,it's not just secular ribbing that got us to this point).
Christ wouldn't have us break laws of a country.."render unto Caesar('s laws).." and/but he expects us to give our all..and He is the ONLY WAY, IF you believe Him.
I also believe in a Holy Spirit which moves into us ... I've seen lives COMPLETELY changed at this and, while I've had more doubt than you'd believe, Ducky, the more I study and hear and have Christian friends who are FAR more learned and faithful than I and have tons of faith stories which can't be denied, that Holy Spirit thing is almost getting undeniable for me.
I hope it does for everyone.
It's not hateful to believe Christ is the only way, it's loving because Christians don't leave anybody out, they want all to come to Him.
Psi Bond, the only commenter here I don't respect (tho I regret having to say this), once said that I was lying when I said that sometimes, for the sake of non believing friends, I hope Christianity is a lie...but I meant it...because if we're to believe the Scripture, death after having been a non believer is permanent separation from God.
I'm going off subject here..sorry.

But, thanks for the input, I honestly do appreciate hearing your take on faith...I've asked you many times and you've not answered me.
Thanks.

Z said...

Mustang...I think you're right "It is amazing to me how the loony leftist demands that conservatives renounce their values, while championing the rights of Elena Kagan (et al) to hers."
Ducky, why can't you see that? And why can't you see that Atheism has now become the religion of an elitist American who wants to ban the HUGE majority's beliefs in this country?! That's okay with you?

JINGOIST said...

All in all I thank G-d that I live in a country founded by strong, faith-based Christians.

Z said...

Jingo, I just wrote to you re your comments about the Armenian genocide on my other article, and you just proved again what I say about you. :-)
Thank you, Jingo....
What a different world this would be with only God-loving Jews and Christians...and other faiths who didn't want to kill for others' beliefs!
xxx

FrogBurger said...

"Oh my, facts not in evidence, Froggy."

Ducky, so since you know more than I do? What do you think destroy the social fabric of a country like France? Don't you think there is a correlation between high unemployment rate, especially for people under 25 (40%) and crime. Don't you think there's a correlation, as shown by the current state of Europe, between public spending, level of debt, size of government, all created by the welfare state, and those unemployment numbers.

If you don't think there is, then, since you know better, please let me know what that is.

Thanks for adding your facts to my thought process.

Debbie said...

Susannah makes a great point. Perhaps we Southern Baptists should start such a class "Bombers for Baptists", heh

Debbie
Right Truth
http://www.righttruth.typepad.com

Ducky's here said...

I don't know any theory of employment that links government spending and unemployment, Froggy, no.

WomanHonorThyself said...

HAPPY MONDAY my friend!..I aint touching this one girl..:)

FrogBurger said...

" don't know any theory"

Not a theory. Correlation. Do you understand the meaning of correlation? Seems to me like you can't even observe the world around you in terms of number and see patterns. No, you need theories, which tells me you're not even doing thinking on your own. I've been looking at numbers and used my 25 years of living in Europe to understand why we had this problem.

Just did a google search. Check this out
http://spectator.org/archives/2009/02/06/unemployment-and-spending

Thank God you're not a doctor or scientist Ducky.

Anonymous said...

Z, reading these comments sent me to get the thoughts of George Orwell on nationalism. (Notes on Nationalism, May 1945)

Orwell argues that the definitions of “nationalism” and “patriotism” are not the same, and that “Patriotism is of its nature defensive… Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. wikipedia

Its worth reading to better understand today's libs. Personally I believe libs are trapped by their self hatred and cannot understand that patriotism requires love. But then, does a lib understand love?

~ Will

Elmers Brother said...

duhkkky merely waxes poetic, spouting Max Weber when it comes to Calvinists. He ignores the fact that this country gives more privately than any socialist country sometimes by a factor of
7, due in large part to our religious underpinnings. That he believes our religious heritage is destroying us only means the whole world will suffer when we stop propping everyone else up. Ptooey!

It's an easy way for him to marginalize and mock, rather than take the time to get to know anyone.

Ducky's here said...

Not a theory. Correlation. Do you understand the meaning of correlation? Seems to me like you can't even observe the world around you in terms of number and see patterns.

---------------

Causation to a descriptive variable? Be careful with that.

Elmers Brother said...

for some reason I get the feeling he thinks Catholics are the only ones whose Christianity motivates them to do charity work or run hospitals

considering all those priests in Latin America who took up arms, it's the pot calling the kettle black

Ducky's here said...

elmo, a break down would be interesting. Does it include the "charitable" gifts of stolen funds from Bernie Madoff's circle?

Anonymous said...

Nationalism v. Internationalism

I detest the idea of our nation's losing her sovereignty.

Why would that be wrong?

The alternative seems to be a denatured blending of all nations into one amorphous Beige Puddle where all distinctions and differences are lost.

I don't think that's even faintly possible, but even if it were, what is desirable about it?

Isn't variety still the spice of life?

~ FreeThinke

Elmers Brother said...

does anyone really know where duhkkky get these caricature of Protestansts? Doesn't he think there is some evangelical cabal in the American military bent on creating an American Theocracy?

Who's got the tin foil hat now?

Elmers Brother said...

elmo, a break down would be interesting. Does it include the "charitable" gifts of stolen funds from Bernie Madoff's circle?

never heard of an Adventist or Baptist hospital? or Pacific Mission Aviation? oh wait you're right duhkkky Catholics are the only ones who care.

I left you the link the other day duhhhhkkky.


Madoff didn't enlist any Catholics to help him out? I didn't even know he was a Protestant? oy.

FrogBurger said...

"Causation to a descriptive variable? Be careful with that."

That's the only thing you can provide? No facts or stats of your own?

Be careful with correlation? And from the one who believes there's a strong correlation between human activity and global warming!!!

God you're more than an idiot ducky. You're a brainless zombie.

Elmers Brother said...

The alternative seems to be a denatured blending of all nations into one amorphous Beige Puddle where all distinctions and differences are lost

It's about payback FT. We've exploited everyone else and now we're getting our commupance.(sp?)

Elmers Brother said...

you remind me duhkkky that Marx sought refuge in kapitalist England, it was the only place he was free to speak.

Elmers Brother said...

what's ironic is that on the article that Z posted the other day, the Protestants were the ones who suggested that Capitalism and Christianity should not be conflated, it's duhkkky that is determined to equate the two

LASunsett said...

Mustang wrote:

//Religion was marginalized by leftist commentators cleverly disguised as journalists; people who remarkably share a similar ideology with Ducky and Uncle Joe Stalin//

Then, Ducky wrote:

//Hyperbole of the sort that only serious religious or military indoctrination (or both in this case) can produce.//

Marx said "religion is the opiate of the masses". Those who adhere to his teaching are more than inclined to internalize this belief and implement things that weaken religions in general. They have done throughout modern history.

How is this hyperbole?

Law and Order Teacher said...

Z,
Sorry to be late. As for the article I find it interesting but not compelling. I've heard that before and while he does make some points worth studying I don't think he's onto anything new.

It's nothing more than atheism lite and a supposed refutation of religious beliefs. I will say this. I went into the military because I believed it was my responsibility to fight for my ideals and those I believed were enshrined in the constitution.

The biggest mistake I see made when talking about religion and American ideals is that some have a need to conflate human frailty with the ideals themselves. While I regret the way the war was fought and the way some people use religion for their own purposes, it is a mistake to allow that to tarnish the ideals at the heart of both.

I believe ideals are unassailable in that they cannot be wrong. Otherwise they would not be ideals. What is wrong is the extent to which humans will tarnish those ideals in pursuit of their own gain. If this occurs is it the ideals that are wrong or the people who pervert them? I would say the latter.

As for America being a God-centered state I would say the examples that it is are in the writings of the founders and are too numerous to mention.

As for being God-ordained I would say it is so. Allow me an example from history. During the War of 1812, the US wasn't doing well against the British.

After an embarrassing defeat at Bladensburg at which the American militia broke and ran in the face of the superior British, they continued on into DC and set several government buildings afire in retaliation for the US having done the same to British buildings at York in Canada.

As the DC buildings blazed something of biblical proportions occurred that could only be divine intervention. First, a tremendous rainstorm drenched the British soldiers and the fires. To add to the misery and disorientation of the British, a hurricane hit DC with a terrible force. If that wasn't enough, shortly thereafter a toronado barreled through DC.

The accumulated effect of this weather took a horrific toll on the British from which they did not recover. They never made it to Baltimore, the US held onto Fort McHenry and was able to survive the Second War for Independence intact.

Certainly some interesting weather right? Sorry to go on for so long, but this is something about which I feel strongly.

Chuck said...

I have thoughts, just not nice ones...

JINGOIST said...

I've read about that L&AOT! I often think of that episode as Divine Intervention in the affairs of our great republic. We were about to be destroyed, and "nature" showed it's face in a very one-sided fashion. :-)

How could G-d NOT favor the Founding Principles of this great country?

beamish said...

Beamish and Susannah seem to have gone off in the ozone together, how nice.

Not in the ozone. Just above your anti-Protestant / anti-Christian bigotry.

Anyone one of us can tick off a list of Catholic atrocities longer and more thoroughly monolithic than any infinitesimal grievances you may have with actual Christianity, Ducky. From the Cadaver Synod to the Crusades to the Spanish Inquisition to the Nazi Concordat to Irish terrorism to shielding child molesters and all sick points in between.
Worshippers of the "Queen of Heaven" are said to bring ruin and desolation to their lands, as told in the book of Jeremiah.

Which is why it can be argued, without exception, Catholicism-dominated nations of the world are all shitholes.

It is what it is, Ducky.

FrogBurger said...

I'm starting to think that Ducky's life purpose is to be a parasite. He is a destructive individual, full of hatred, and he only gets aroused when pissing off people. Pretty sick behavior.

Z said...

Law and Order, would you believe that got tears in my eyes? I'd heard this story and have never found it on Google, though I've tried...I figured it wasn't true. VERY glad to see it IS.
Also, how many hurricanes and tornadoes have we had in DC? VERY VERY few, from what I've heard..this was a distinct miracle.
And yes, I'll NEVER EVER stop believing we were a God-ordained country...
it's only since we've started kicking Him out that things aren't going well....and that we have a president who doesn't openly celebrate Him and even works against the National Day of Prayer, etc etc.......

Susannah said...

Beam~ Thanks. (& thanks to you too, Debbie!) I was pretty much wondering why stating the obvious was called 'going off into the ozone'. HUH?

Z~ As I read your comment of faith profession, I couldn't help but think, "I am the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me."...Amen, sister!!

I absolutely agree w/ you: believing Jesus was who He said He was can only be viewed as the most generous, gracious world view. After all, He came that ALL might be saved, through faith - not works, or denominations, or looks, or nationality (proud as I am to be American),etc. - lest anyone should boast...anyhow - Bravo!

And btw, anyone who denies that Americans are a privileged nation needs their clock cleaned!!!

Trouble is not our privilege, but the notion that we are entitled to it, that it is somehow because of US.

Our privilege is not a result of who we are, but a result of God's extravagant shower of mercy and blessing on us; blessed to be a blessing...and we USED to be a nation who acknowledge that. We USED to give God credit for our Freedom (remember that pesky phrase - God-given RIGHT to freedom??).

It's a good thing God isn't a human being like me...I'd have taken USA out to the woodshed long before now.

(Hmmm...maybe that's what this whole Barack Hussein Obama administration is about. We asked for it...we got it. God, please help us learn this very hard lesson, and fast.)

OK, enough. Thanks for the nod toward my blog, sweet Z!

beamish said...

Frogburger,

I'm starting to think that Ducky's life purpose is to be a parasite.

And he's not even good at that. He sucks, but remains lifeless. ;)

Ducky's here said...

Law and Order, whatever the Founders intent (and that is still an open question) it may or may not have been realized.

The phrase "Christian nation" is pretty nebulous. Especially since there are so many sects.

Ducky's here said...

Mustang...I think you're right "It is amazing to me how the loony leftist demands that conservatives renounce their values, while championing the rights of Elena Kagan (et al) to hers."
Ducky, why can't you see that?

---------------------

See what? That mustang hates homos. Who the bleep cares.

Kagan was president of Harvard law and conformed to the rules of the university. Matter closed.

Ducky's here said...

Well, other than Beamish who is a dumb as a rock and irredeemable the thread did generate some decent conversation. I'll try again to find a topic, z.

Oh Beamish, you really are a pig.

Z said...

well, Hi, dear Susannah...great comment, thanks so much.
The nod to your blog is WELL DESERVED.
Man, I JUST LOVE so many of you bloggers...you give me hope by feeling like I do about this country, you lift me in faith when I see how SMART you all are and that you're such believers, you visit me and read my stuff and contribute to the conversation...I was thinking today "I can't believe what GREAT PEOPLE I have here" and you're one of them, Susannah.

Ducky, Beamish is one of the smartest, most clever bloggers going and a pretty good friend of mine, he is NO PIG, pal.

As for more topics, fire away. I liked where this went...though I WILL NEVER SEE WHY AND HOW YOU FEEL AS YOU DO.

I won't speak for Mustang but I don't believe he's homophobic or racist or anything ELSE and it was real unfair to suggest that.....
As for Kagan, she ruled on her own instead of having said "Harvard's opinions about Don't Ask Don't Tell aren't constitutional, so I can't go along with that even if I believe we're right..."

beamish said...

Ducky,

How am I a pig?

Did I accuse your corpse desecrating, Jew hating, war crusading, subject torturing, Nazi supporting, terror bombing child molester's haven of being an unsavory religion?

Why I didn't even get into how your ecclesiastical heirarchy assisted your fellow left-wing labor activists that ran Nazi Germany escape prosecution for war crimes and flee to the left-wing Catholic shithole of Argentina.

How are we gonna have a decent boxing match here if you're going to keep stopping the match to pick my glove leather out of your cum-stained teeth?

Z said...

ruhroh

FrogBurger said...

Ducky has yet to address my request for facts to know how he explains the state of Europe and why unemployment is high. Can't be the Protestants as most Europe is catholic-socialist.

Anonymous said...

Interesting comments here. I especially like the perception of the British North American War as a continuation of the American Revolution. And I think that makes a lot of sense. Perhaps it would make sense to look for connections between other conflagrations that the world has been involved in that involved America. One could find some interesting connections by considering these great wars as being for the advancement of tyranny versus the concepts of individualism and liberty and capitalism, IMO.

Beamish, something else to add to your litany of Church based sins against the world and human life: The American Civil War. Wasn't President Lincoln condemned by the highest levels of the Church of Rome as being a Catholic apostate, even though he was never a Catholic? This served the purpose of undermining his authority and respect among some of the enlisted men he was leading in the war and ultimately led to his demise.

It does make sense that a committed leftist would embrace a religion which embraces absolute control and command over its followers.

Waylon

Z said...

Waylon...so John Wilkes Booth was a Catholic hater, too? And thought Lincoln was Catholic??

Ducky's here said...

Frog, I know enough to know I don't have the complete answer for European unemployment.

However, government expenditures do not inhibit demand and aren't going to be the entire issue. Employment requires demand, poverty isn't the best type of demand though.

You need three things to create wealth:

1. Kapital - The Libertarians were finding all kinds of ways to push that into the system. A lot of it was unhealthy.

2. Labor - There is a global glut of labor or haven't you been paying attention (rhetorical).

3. Raw materials - Could be a demand problem here.

So laborers are hardly in a position to just "get a job" as you Libertarians would suggest from your sand box. Damn bit more complicated. Now let's have your version because you demand a lot and produce nothing but an occasional aphorism.

Z said...

No, Ducky, let's have yours...eager to hear. What's your solution? Mao jackets and printing money?

beamish said...

Waylon,

Beamish, something else to add to your litany of Church based sins against the world and human life: The American Civil War. Wasn't President Lincoln condemned by the highest levels of the Church of Rome as being a Catholic apostate, even though he was never a Catholic? This served the purpose of undermining his authority and respect among some of the enlisted men he was leading in the war and ultimately led to his demise.

I don't really see a basis for believing this. General George Meade, who defeated Confederate forces at Gettysburg, was himself a Catholic. Many Catholics, mostly immigrants from Ireland, joined the Union Army (voluntarily or at cannon-point, Lincoln did shell New York City for conscripts after all...).

That said, the Catholic Church did recognize the government of the breakaway Confederacy and never really had an abolitionist movement in America against slavery as emerged from several Protestant groups.

I don't think there was ever a deliberate anti-Lincoln conspiracy by the Catholic Church. There's plenty of documentable charges to hang on Catholicism's neck without speculating into the unknown. It could be true, I don't know, but I prefer honing my case against Catholicism with that which can be demonstrated and independently verified.

Anonymous said...

Z, from my understanding Booth was just part of a much larger plot to assassinate Lincoln. The accusation was made that Lincoln was a Catholic apostate — though he wasn't a Catholic and never was.

Here is a link to some letters exchanged between the papacy and Jefferson Davis that show interference in the Civil War from outside the country. Weren't the records of the assassination sealed by the government? None of the individuals involved are alive today — but institutions alive then exist today.

http://www.reformation.org/lincoln.html

Waylon

Susannah said...

Z~ You indeed DO have some excellent people at your fine blog. I am privileged to be among them. Thank you for your kind words, dear friend.

FrogB & Duck, I've been doing some thinking about your unemployment discussion. Since none of us has the whole picture of EU economics, I gave it a bit of a stab @ my blog today, including a posting of an opinion of our very own Investor's Business Daily. Not exactly along the lines of unemployment, but at least parallel...You're welcome to come look, then return to impart your analysis to Z & all her readers...hmmm?

FrogBurger said...

Ducky you think you're brilliant but you're just stating the obvious. High school level of economics.

You just forgot about labor market flexibility, tax levels, etc...

"So laborers are hardly in a position to just "get a job"

That's right. Especially in European countries where there's no job market flexibility and the price tag to hire someone is hefty because of taxes on corporations related to labor and hirings. Did you know that an employee cost approximately a company 3 times his salary in France, because of taxes to finance the welfare state and big government. Then you can't lay off people in medium and big businesses without getting an approval from the government. Another policy inherited from seeing business and profit as the enemy of the people.

So what do companies do? They don't hire.

I could go on and on with some details. But all you can do is recite basic highschool education. At least my highschool level. Maybe not yours because it looks like it took you 35+ years to get to that level.

Law and Order Teacher said...

Z,
Here's a link to information on the hurricane/tornado on August 25, 1812 that struck Washington. It did happen and I believe it was a intervention on behalf of the US by God. Of course, I'm sure that some would disagree.

http://www.roanoke.com/weather/wb/79760

Happy reading.

Anonymous said...

When weather events and natural disasters work to defeat our enemies, we like to think of them as Divine Intervention on our behalf.

When they destroy our homes, take the lives of loved ones, and greatly impoverish us most of us tend to think very differently.

God loves us all, but I doubt very much that He intervenes on our behalf, because He loves our enemies as much as He loves us.

We are each left to work out our own salvation using the intelligence and sensitivities God gave us. That may be our only real purpose in life.

Ecclesiast

Z said...

"When weather events and natural disasters work to defeat our enemies, we like to think of them as Divine Intervention on our behalf.

When they destroy our homes, take the lives of loved ones, and greatly impoverish us most of us tend to think very differently."

I don't. I look at those exactly the same way and would love to have some conversation on this here...thanks for that, Ecclesiast.

Sometimes, "in our behalf" isn't the way WE want OUR BEHALF, sometimes God's working seemingly against us exactly to "work out our salvation"

Susannah said...

Indeed, Z~

The simplest way to put this concept came to me in lyrics several years ago by Scott Krippayne :

"Sometimes He calms the storm with a whisper, 'Peace, be still.'

He can settle any sea, but it doesn't mean He will.

Sometimes He holds us close, and lets the wind and waves go wild.

Sometimes He calms the storm and other times He calms His child."


Beautiful.

Susannah said...

Here's a 'Youtube' alternative to:

Sometimes He Calms the Storm just in case you'd want to hear it more than once... ;)

Z said...

Thanks, Susannah..exactly right with that.
It was terribly hard for me to listen, but I did.
Sometimes it feels like He's not calming the sea OR the child. Trust me. xxx

Susannah said...

Sometimes it feels like He's not calming the sea OR the child.

Trust me.


I know.

I do.

tha malcontent said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
tha malcontent said...

I say that most Muslims condone terrorism. Those that don't condemn it are few and far between. You should really read the Qur’an.
What Islam considers to be moderate Muslims are the Muslims who do not participate in the physical part of jihad, fighting, bombing, etc. These moderates are moderate ONLY because they don’t fight, but they do support the goals of Jihad and the terrorists.

Ducky, do you honestly think that if over 1 billion Muslims actually wanted to stop the few million who are doing the terrorism that they couldn’t.
Do you know why I don’t look at Islam as a religion. No religion preaches the kind of hatred for others who don’t believe the way Islam does
How many terrorists can you name who aren’t Muslim today?
You liberals are terribly naive.

Anonymous said...

"He will pursue us till He destroys us."

Christ said, "I came not bring peace, but a sword."

When God came back a second time and saw all that He had made, He said, "SHIT! I really fucked up BIGTIME, didn't I?"