Monday, May 24, 2010

A SCOTUS judgement today...Blacks in the Fire Department

Did you see THIS article on what the Supreme Court ruled today? The suit itself is pretty benign...but the cause of the suit seems less benign to me..........

Here are the paragraphs which most caught my eye and my curiosity:

"Today, the Supreme Court affirmed that job-seekers should not be denied justice based on a technicality," said John Payton, president of the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, Inc., who argued the case. "This victory goes well beyond the immediate results in Chicago. It should ensure that no other fire department or employer uses a discriminatory test, and LDF will go the extra mile to make sure that they do not."

Anyone who scored 64 or below was deemed not qualified. But the city set a second cutoff score of 89 points.

Officials told applicants who scored below 89 but above 64 that although they passed the test, they likely would not be hired because of the large number of people who scored 89 or above. The majority of those in the top-scoring group were white; only 11 percent were black.

Only 11 percent in the top-scoring group were black so we lower the bar? Shouldn't we help those blacks do better instead of dropping the bar? If anybody raised the bar JUST to keep blacks out, they should be FIRED IMMEDIATELY, obviously! But, if this was proven, wouldn't that have happened? Does this leave cities less safe because we'll be allowing in people who aren't qualified for these important jobs? Doesn't that matter?

The actual suit is about the time people have to file a suit when they feel discrimination has happened, that's fine...........but the gist of this suit, what set off this suit, seems more important to me. Why wouldn't we just put a SET NUMBER on the testing and anybody, regardless of color, either passes or doesn't...those who don't pass, aren't hired. Or, give them a second chance with all the information review they need to learn and pass? Is that so impossible these days? Are we that far gone? If I was a black man desirous of working in the fire department, I'd demand they find the most reasonable cut-off number for the testing grade and stick to it....and, if I didn't pass, I'd study until I did. And I'd feel proud that I did, wouldn't you? I wish that for the kid in my image above, IF he chooses to become a fire fighter.

z

22 comments:

Mustang said...

Oh Z … you keep trying to inject logic into these matters. Whatever are we going to do with you? Assuming that the entrance examination determines reasonable expectations that prospective applicants will successfully complete the Fire Academy, and that 64 really means marginally qualified, then I can understand why the FD would not want to hire such candidates. I also assume that the examination seeks to measure what the applicants know (such as basic logic, basic mathematics, and reading comprehension).

I do agree with you … someone who wants to be a fireman but who didn’t score high enough should try harder the next time. The problem appears to be that too many people think they are ‘entitled.’ I agree they are entitled to an opportunity … but they are not entitled to employment simply because they’re minorities.

Anonymous said...

It seems to me, that it is assumed, that only black firefighters scored lower than 89. Or lower than 64.

Were there no white firefighters who scored lower? Asian? Hispanic?

This report seems skewed to me.

Is it not possible that there were firefighters who studied less for the test because they knew 64 was the where the bar was set?

Is the NAACP saying that black people can't excel without a separate standard set just for them? 11% of successful test takers were black. Does their hard work go unrecognized?

What this sort of desired manipulation accomplishes is, to cheapen the success of those who worked harder, or were just very bright, and gives the impression to those who didn't succeed that they were cheated.

More victimhood for those who weren't capable enough, as though it was racial discrimination, and not reward for those who excelled.

How many black firefighters en toto participated at all as compared to all other races? We don't know.

I think we're well past the time where you get rewarded through affirmative action, because of the color of your skin. In the first place this is an example of racial profiling. Pure and simple.

It has nothing to do with having the best qualified firefighters, and everything to do with political correctness which has nothing to do with meeting qualifications.

This is the socialist belief of social justice, which requires equal results regardless of qualifications or standards. There are no standards, just the social ends justify the means.

Equal justice means the rules or laws are the same for everyone, equal. It is up to the individual to succeed or fail. This is what our country is based on. Pursuit of happiness, not guarantee of happiness.

Pris

Faith said...

If I was a black man desirous of working in the fire department, I'd demand they find the most reasonable cut-off number for the testing grade and stick to it....and, if I didn't pass, I'd study until I did. And I'd feel proud that I did, wouldn't you?

Not if you lived in a society that encouraged you to take the easy way out.

Bloviating Zeppelin said...

I find this very disturbing on two points:

1. It implies that drop-dead dates mean nothing. Limiting dates mean nothing and any time frame can be grieved. That's wrong.

I've had to comply with EVERY due date when I applied for jobs up to and including any attempt to promote.

2. Scores are scores. I note that the test itself wasn't the issue. It was the NUMBER of persons of a specific melanin count who scored within a given range.

Again, disturbing.

Apparently blacks are too stupid to compete in an open environment.

BZ

Beth said...

I have had disagreements with people on the similar issue of women who want to be firefighters but who aren't as physically able as men. I say if I am in a burning building, I don't care who the hell pulls me out, but they have got to be able, and know what they are doing!

Z said...

Beth, I'm with you...and,
Mustang, excellent comment (especially the parts where you agree with me :-) heh)...but you forgot that WE are "entitled to rely on the fact that the fire fighter who's trying to save our husband's life or our home is very well trained for the job", right? !!

Pris, the details are lost in this article because the thing it's really covering is the suit about how long people have to file a suit, but I agree, it seems skewed and, of course, there's no way only blacks didn't do well!

Faith, couldn't you just weep? Remember America when she had leadership that made her strong and parents encouraged GOOD CHARACTER and HOW TO GET AHEAD?

BZ, you said "Apparently blacks are too stupid to compete in an open environment."
And, of course they are NOT......and their schools are failing them, parents are failing MANY kids of any color, and this is the liberal way of looking at minorities, don't you think?
They think Mexican children are so stupid they can't learn English in the 3 months it took my 9 yr old grandfather when he arrived in America, too.......so they have to have BILINGUAL education to make SURE they keep the men gardeners and the women house cleaners...and vote HAND OUTS.

Anonymous said...

AFFIRMATIVE ACTION!!!


!@@!#*&#@&*!@#^&%!@^&%#^&*#*&(~~*!#!*$@#*&($~!?~!@#!@#)_($(#@*I!@~!

PHOOEY!!!

~ FreeThinbke

Leticia said...

It is this victim mentality that keeps minorities down. They use their race and color as a crutch to get what they want and it really has to stop.

I sure don't want someone who is not qualified to run into a burning building if they have no idea what to do. They would be a danger to themselves, their co-firefighters and the victims. It is not worth the risk. Lives are at stake.

This is one occupation that we need qualifed people.

No cutting corners or free rides.

Anonymous said...

"and their schools are failing them, parents are failing MANY kids of any color, and this is the liberal way of looking at minorities, don't you think?
They think Mexican children are so stupid they can't learn English in the 3 months it took my 9 yr old grandfather when he arrived in America, too.......so they have to have BILINGUAL education to make SURE they keep the men gardeners and the women house cleaners...and vote HAND OUTS."


Hmmm...let me see. No...I think I can safely say...STUPID! Sorry if that conflicts with your view that after 50 years of a level playing field they ought to do 'better". And I don't and can't blame all the failures on the rotten ( soft bigotry of low expectations either ) demrats slave owners either. Who the hell do you think picks grapes on Pelosi's vineyards?

They've had generations to resolve problems of poverty, education and assimilation. The rest is all victimhood related bullshit. My heart breaks for all immigrants that have gone before them...or those who have been freed by the civil rights act...that the Dems were 100% against!

So long as these morons....confuse opportunity with the tribalism put forth by the Wrights, Sharptons, Jacksons we'll continue to have our pockets picked. Legalized mugging, extortion and 'blackmaul" is what it must be called.

Time to turn the tables and shine the light on who's really to blame...no? Si?

Major

Ducky's here said...

It should be pointed out that this ruling was procedural and simply allows the suit to progress. There is no time limit if adverse impact is presumed.

Even Tough Tony Scalia voted to allow the suit to continue. Nothing of substance has been adjudicated.

Ducky's here said...

Ah Major, always rewriting history.
Not that today's ruling has anything to do with civil rights, it was simply a ruling on procedure but you make the standard error when accusing Dems of being 100% against civil rights.

If you remember, Lyndon Johnson was concerned that the ruling would cost the Democratic party the south for generations as the "Dixiecrats" moved to the Republican party. You know, outstanding crackers like Strom Thurmond and Jesse Helms who formed the basis of right wing "thought" for so many years.

"Southern strategy" mean anything to you? It should, the rethugs have been supported by the anti civil rights crowd ever since the bill passed. You should be proud.

Anonymous said...

Leticia said,

"They [minorities] use their race and color as a crutch to get what they want and it really has to stop."

I'm afraid it won't stop, until they have so overcome and neutralized their "white oppressors" with crippling, wealth-redistributing taxes and regulations that the "white geese" will have lost all their capacity to lay "golden eggs" anymore.

And then the Marxian Vision will be fulfilled at last -- EVERYBODY will be EQUAL and desperately POOR.

Humanity in essence is a lot like a series of bee hives and ant hills. As everyone but the liberals realizes, every hive needs a large host of worker bees, and there can only be ONE Queen.

When we upset the natural order of things, we get chaos, until, things settle down again -- usually with a NEW set of "oppressors" at the helm. One form of tyranny supplants another.

Our was better than most till Marxism reared it's vile, deceitful head.

~ FreeThinke

Z said...

Ducky, if you persist on not reading my posts, don't COMMENT, it makes you look silly.

This suit was NOT about the color thing, I SAID THAT, and EVERYBODY GETS IT..but the color thing is a fascinating and important aspect of it, whether you like that or not..don't insult my commenters, OKAY?

Law and Order Teacher said...

Z,
I seem to remember taking civil service test that I had to get a score that placed me above other applicants to the point that I qualified to be hired. That's the point of a test, right?

Cultural bias seems to me to be a crutch for keeping AAs beholden to the state for success. I seem to remember that the test was basic high school questions about math and english. It wasn't real difficult. If you have trouble passing that, you'd have trouble doing a job that requires you to read laws. Just a thought.

Mustang said...

This is a tough issue because everyone has the opportunity to be right —and wrong. The problem is that the “collective we” is hard pressed to agree with any aspect of this problem. The comment about blacks being too stupid to compete in an open environment is a case in point; the assertion is simplistic and … also stupid. There are blacks who refuse to compete —for all kinds of reasons —but to suggest blacks lack the mental acuity to be successful is to deny the existence of thousands of very wealthy, very conservative black people. I suggest reading Dr. Thomas Sowell, who I believe is one of the smartest men this country ever produced; a man who is very critical of “Black rednecks and White Liberals.” One thing is certain: we will not resolve racial issues if we don’t make an honest attempt in doing that. There is no shortage of white people exactly like Jeremiah Wright.

Z said...

Law and Order, that's the rub...can we rely on a person of ANY color who couldn't pass the test upon which is information which could save our or our childrens' lives?

Mustang, NO DOUBT ABOUT IT..there are VERy smart black Americans and very Conservative and you know as well as I do that Thomas Sowell would be the FIRST against this whole thing in my post...not the main point of the time limit to sue, but the fact that guys who can't pass the test just get the bar lowered so they can. He's a confident, smart and conscientious American who gets it.
We need MANY more Thomas Sowells of ANY color!
And, sadly, you're right about whites like Wright, too

beamish said...

If you remember, Lyndon Johnson was concerned that the ruling would cost the Democratic party the south for generations as the "Dixiecrats" moved to the Republican party. You know, outstanding crackers like Strom Thurmond and Jesse Helms who formed the basis of right wing "thought" for so many years.

Ah yes. Fine Republicans like Orval Fabus, Benjamin Travis Laney, John Stennis, James Eastland, Allen Ellender, Russell Long, John Sparkman, John McClellan, Richard Russell, Herman Talmadge, George Wallace, Lester Maddox, John Rarick. Robert Byrd,
Al Gore, Sr., Bull Connor, Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton's mentor J. William Fulbright.

Oh, wait. They, like over 90% of Dixiecrats, remained Democrats in good standing.

Lyndon Johnson was concerned that he'd lose the South because black Americans weren't going to be denied the vote anymore. Still, even to this day, blacks complaining of disenfranchisement at the polls and intimidation by police only seems to happen in districts with elected Democrat local officials in vharge of law enforcement.

Seriously Ducky, when you leftists claim that "history is a class struggle" is that just y'all lamenting your falling asleep in school?

Deborah on the Bayside said...

What do you think the generation coming into adulthood thinks anyway after having their schools turn off scoreboards or arbitrarily change a team's score so they won't "feel bad" [We heard from someone who was at a game where that happened.]

Sam Huntington said...

Slavers do continue to exist in this country; we know them as Democrats. The slavery is that they have convinced too many blacks to depend on government, rather than themselves. Democrats created the nanny-state and the entitlement mentality. They also encouraged the myth of white oppression. And in the doing of it, guaranteed to themselves generations of thoughtless people voting ... dare I say it? Voting straight democratic ticket every damn time.

Disgusting.

Ducky's here said...

I seem to remember taking civil service test that I had to get a score that placed me above other applicants to the point that I qualified to be hired. That's the point of a test, right?

-----------------

No.

The test will be part of determining if you meet basic qualifications. If you think you have found a test which can act as the sole determinant then there is going to be disagreement.

Z said...

Deborah..you said "What do you think the generation coming into adulthood thinks anyway after having their schools turn off scoreboards or arbitrarily change a team's score so they won't "feel bad" [We heard from someone who was at a game where that happened."
I mentioned this to a 4 yr old's mother yesterday .."really? I have never heard of that!"
"Be careful when your little boy starts sports and check his history books, too!" her response "see you later!" as she walked back into her condo.
I think it's too much for some to take in but it's one of my biggest bugaboos...it's IDIOCY, but, let's face it, it keeps liberals from raising little boys who'll fight for their country, right?

Sam...I wish we could fight this...I have a few Black friends who're waking up, and we all know great Black bloggers who can't stand Obama and understand the left's disdain for excellence in ANY color, but...we have to do more.

Ducky, tests are for telling us who's better for the job...get over it.

Anonymous said...

Some people may test high, but have elements in their personality profiles that show they are not well suited to the work involved. It happens all the time.

To hire or fire anyone SOLELY on racial grounds of ANY kind, however, is simply WRONG.

If someone can't cut the mustard, as it were, then let him cut the grass.

~ FreeThinke