Tuesday, May 25, 2010

Illegals are suing Citizens...how long did YOU think this would take to happen?

From the Washington Times: HERE is the whole article; below are my 'highlights' (I've emboldened things I found the most interesting):

An Arizona man who has waged a 10-year campaign to stop a flood of illegal immigrants from crossing his property is being sued by 16 Mexican nationals who accuse him of conspiring to violate their civil rights when he stopped them at gunpoint on his ranch on the U.S.-Mexico border.

Roger Barnett, 64, began rounding up illegal immigrants in 1998 and turning them over to the U.S. Border Patrol, he said, after they destroyed his property, killed his calves and broke into his home.

His Cross Rail Ranch near Douglas, Ariz., is known by federal and county law enforcement authorities as "the avenue of choice" for immigrants seeking to enter the United States illegally.

Trial continues Monday in the federal lawsuit, which seeks $32 million in actual and punitive damages for civil rights violations, the infliction of emotional distress and other crimes. Also named are Mr. Barnett's wife, Barbara, his brother, Donald, and Larry Dever, sheriff in Cochise County, Ariz., where the Barnetts live. The civil trial is expected to continue until Friday. (Z: the illegals could get $32 MILLION)

The lawsuit is based on a March 7, 2004, incident in a dry wash on the 22,000-acre ranch, when he approached a group of illegal immigrants while carrying a gun and accompanied by a large dog.....

The immigrants are represented at trial by the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund (MALDEF).......It (the suit) also said Mr. Barnett acknowledged that he had turned over 12,000 illegal immigrants to the Border Patrol since 1998.

In March, U.S. District Judge John Roll rejected a motion by Mr. Barnett to have the charges dropped, ruling there was sufficient evidence to allow the matter to be presented to a jury. Mr. Barnett's attorney, David Hardy, had argued that illegal immigrants did not have the same rights as U.S. citizens.

Mr. Barnett told The Washington Times in a 2002 interview that he began rounding up illegal immigrants after they started to vandalize his property, northeast of Douglas along Arizona Highway 80. He said the immigrants tore up water pumps, killed calves, destroyed fences and gates, stole trucks and broke into his home.

Some of his cattle died from ingesting the plastic bottles left behind by the immigrants, he said, adding that he installed a faucet on an 8,000-gallon water tank so the immigrants would stop damaging the tank to get water.

Mr. Barnett said some of the ranch´s established immigrant trails were littered with trash 10 inches deep, including human waste, used toilet paper, soiled diapers, cigarette packs, clothes, backpacks, empty 1-gallon water bottles, chewing-gum wrappers and aluminum foil - which supposedly is used to pack the drugs the immigrant smugglers give their "clients" to keep them running.

He said he carried a pistol during his searches for the immigrants and had a rifle in his truck "for protection" against immigrant and drug smugglers, who often are armed.

.....His sprawling ranch became an illegal-immigration highway when the Border Patrol diverted its attention to several border towns in an effort to take control of the established ports of entry. That effort moved the illegal immigrants to the remote areas of the border, including the Cross Rail Ranch.

"This is my land. I´m the victim here," Mr. Barnett said. "When someone´s home and loved ones are in jeopardy and the government seemingly can´t do anything about it, I feel justified in taking matters into my own hands. And I always watch my back." end of article.

Can anybody blame him? And WHERE IS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WHICH SHOULD BE PROTECTING HIM?

Z

47 comments:

Beth said...

That story is a travesty, one that has been happening longer than the Obama administration, and should never have gone on as long as it has. It is a disgrace that a US citizen is being treated this way and his rights literally trampled.

FrogBurger said...

It makes me want to throw up. I'll say this: if they want a war, they'll get it. Because that's how it feels for sure.

Anonymous said...

The people in power have an ANTI-WHITE, ANTI-CAPITALIST AGENDA. This underlies ALL the reasons why the government does NOTHING that helps, nothing that improves, nothing that affirms or heartens traditional Americans.

White Protestant Americans -- particularly those of Anglo-Saxon, German and Scandinavian backgrounds -- are being deliberately MARGINALIZED by "Social Engineers" who in their infinite wisdom have determined the time has come for someone ELSE to get the lion's share of the proverbial pie.

WASPS created and developed most of the advantages of representative republican democracy and modern life. If it weren't for WASPS there would BE no USA as we know it.

Butt, because WASPS created distinctive, highly attractive benefits fro themselves, OTHERS feel they have the "RIGHT" to TAKE AWAY those advantages by MAIN FORCE.

It's a lot like saying, "Gee! That man's proppity is beautiful, hon. I love that stream he has and that purty l'l pond all stocked with fish, and all them flowers an' nice lawn furniture an stuff. He shouldn't have it fenced off like that. Next time we come over this way, I'm gonna bring yew an' the kids an' some tools, and we's gonna bust that fence open, and go in there an' have ourselves a real nice picnic."

See what I mean?

~ FreeThinke

Mustang said...

The argument appears to be that when a man defends his property and his family, he violates the civil rights of individuals who are (a) not entitled to be in the United States, and (b) who the law defines as trespassers. I think that since illegal aliens murdered an Arizona rancher not long ago, MALDEF has an uphill battle convincing normal people that Mr. Barnett is the criminal here—this assuming that the Arizona demographic holds true; that 70% of the jury support Arizona’s new anti-illegal alien law.

Joe said...

How dare Mr. Barnette be upset that illegal immigrants are killing his cattle and distroying his property?

What, we should pass a law that if you are not a U.S. citizen and you get into this country you have an absolute RIGHT to break into peoples' homes and kill their cattle and steal their possessions and kiss their wives and mess on their floors and whatever else you want to do.

It's only right...right?

ExPreacherMan said...

With the Leftist. Communist, Marxist, secular Obama admin in power, the Justice Dept will favor the illegals.

Shame on America for not protecting her citizens.

Bloviating Zeppelin said...

These days, I'm frankly surprised there isn't a federal code that some asshole USA would gin up against the man.

This is beyond an abrogation. It is an obscenity. It is legal filth. It is things like this that make people pop off and consider actual acts of violence. Can you imagine -- can you POSSIBLY imagine -- the ramifications if the ILLEGAL MEXICANS somehow WIN this suit??

This is an abortion, an obscenity, a vile, poisonous act -- to sue this man and his family.

I'm running out of perverse adjectives.

BZ

Z said...

You're all so right, thanks for commenting.

You can be assured, of course, that any Hispanic being picked up in AZ by the cops for ANYTHING will also be screaming DISCRIMINATION and going to court.........and winning. (of course, legal Hispanics are MORE for this law than others, have you heard that? THEy'll be the ones saying "Check me, I have nothing to hide", bless them...which is also what muslims should be saying instead of suing over profiling, of course)

We are woefully and dangerously not STANDING UP to people and saying ENOUGH! STOP!, because our laws prohibit that..the SCOTUS will step in and demand the rights of those who deserve NO RIGHTS for having BROKEN OUR LAWS.

wait for it.

Brooke said...

INFURIATING!!!

It seems that the citizens of other countries who are, make NO mistake, LAW BREAKERS have more rights in this country than this country's citizens do!

Bloviating Zeppelin said...

And just wait, ladies and gentlemen. Mr Obaka will be able to make one more SCOTUS nomination during his term and then the bulk of the court will BE irretrievably Left.

BZ

Anonymous said...

So let me get this straight. We can shoot insurgents, invaders and terrorists in Afghanistan or Iraq....but we can't here?

So...the trespassing, invading filthy army of Mexicans gets a pass? And then they're defended by their hostile provocative "governmetnt" here on American soil, in American courts? Then denying the property owner due process, the protection of his property rights and the ability to hold him harmless from frivolous lawsuits filed by invaders from a country that they fled and that grants them no rights...until they arrive here...illegally?

This is what we were fighting for?

I'm not laughing.

Major

Anonymous said...

Additionally to head of any PC whiners about "fairness, understanding, diversity" and cuervo is better than Bud...my empathy is in short supply when people wish me dead or to steal from me. Summer vacation is over. It’s time for the grown-ups to be back in charge.

Major

Anonymous said...

Oh...Breaking news....Our "commander in chief" will not be at Arlington on Memorial Day. He doesn't do National Prayer Day...attend any church...( yet praises muslimes ) and on and on.



Major

Faith said...

I heard a sermon a few years ago in which it was suggested that the US acquired the Southwest area from Mexico too cheaply, or otherwise unfairly, and that our plague of illegal immigration is God's judgment for that. It's a distressing thought. The whole thing is distressing of course. The injustice to this rancher is very distressing. The policies of our insane administration would also be God's judgment. Why don't we seek God about these things any more? As a nation I mean. That's what's needed. Do the churches even seek His mind about such things in any concerted way? I pray that churches in Arizona at the very least would fast and pray about this.

Karen Howes said...

This man should be praised for his actions.

I'm so sick of people who do right getting punished while criminals just do what they want.

What part of "they don't HAVE civil rights here" do they not get???

Anonymous said...

"Oh...Breaking news....Our "commander in chief" will not be at Arlington on Memorial Day. He doesn't do National Prayer Day...attend any church...( yet praises muslimes ) and on and on."

In case anyone, (Ducky or any other lefty) hasn't noticed, the emperor has no clothes. He thinks he is above reproach.

Obama has continually gone against meaningful American tradition in a methodical, purposeful way that is so in our face that it's clear, his disdain for this country, and everything American is so distasteful for him he can't even fake it.

So, why should we expect him to stand up for Americans against illegal intruders? He welcomes the chaos. He thinks we deserve whatever comes down the pike.

He's where he is to be as punitive as he can be, and forcing us to pay for it. I would add, that the Democrat Party is right in line with him, so far. They aren't Democrats anymore, they're far leftists.

Don't expect the government to do anything to protect us. They'll make a weak pretense of it, but it's for show, and even that is transparent.

Pris

Anonymous said...

"I heard a sermon a few years ago in which it was suggested that the US acquired the Southwest area from Mexico too cheaply, or otherwise unfairly, and that our plague of illegal immigration is God's judgment for that."

Faith, this you cite is a perfect example of what is being encouraged by the left, and that is to mix politics with religion. In other words, to use God to make a political point.

I would point out, that the Spanish invaded the land called Mexico and held sway there over the indians before the southwest was part of America. So, it looks to me like there's plenty of criticism to go around.

That was then, this is now. How far back are we going to go, to wallow in guilt?

Pris

Faith said...

Wow, you don't get it at all Pris. There is absolutely NOTHING God is not involved in and it's suicidal to pretend otherwise.

If it's true it's a practical point (I don't know much about the acquisition of the Southwest from Mexico, do you? I know we got it through war, and also paid something but that's about all I know). It's not about wallowing in guilt, it's about having an effective response to the situation.

If all our human efforts are being defeated surely it's time we had a national call to repentance such as Lincoln and other Presidents made in times of crisis. Or would you object to that mixing of religion with politics too?

I'm only commenting on THIS situation, I'm sure there are plenty of others that could also be commented on, and I'd point out that Spain doesn't have much clout in the world any more, have you noticed?

Anonymous said...

" How far back are we going to go, to wallow in guilt?"

We already have Ms. Prisc. Remember we teach the kids in our schools...to make the illegals happier...that Columbus was an invader, genocidal murder,that our WASP founders were slave owning terrorists, insurgents and elitists. That black is white...it's OK to be a "victim" and then OK to be racist as long as you're the right color, ethic background or race.

So why are we surprised when a nation of illiterate, destitute parasites intent on robbing our resources, bankrupting our social services, burdening the average American worker with more taxes...now decides that they have the "right" to actually take a mans posessions and steal his wealth by accusing him of "racism and violating their rights"? Now thay can walk into your home...steal your assets, ( without them spending a penny to sue you due to little shit, spineless tofu eating, bark humping, trust fund ACLU, red diaper babies, columbia and yale grads who need to write a paper to graduate...who will save the world from you), property and valuables...shit on your floor....laugh on the way out...and if you retaliate or defend yourself....you go to court?

Hey...I want...we need....an Arizona...cause this is the showdown we've all hoped for. And a shootout would be good for Arizona and the rest of Us who foolishly think the law with be on our side.

Major

Faith said...

What I'm saying is NOTHING like what the leftists are saying. I'm even sympathetic with the Major's desire to go have a shootout with the illegals, BUT I have this uneasy feeling that as with all our other efforts to stop this we are up against something bigger than human beings can deal with. If it's God's judgment we CANNOT succeed, we HAVE to repent. And formerly this once-Christian nation KNEW that sort of thing. Now we believe in human effort, EXACTLY what the Bible says NOT to trust in.

Z said...

Major, I think this AZ is DEFINITELY a "God send", I really do..people ARE WAKING UP...

Faith...the Mexicans are lucky as hell that there WAS an America....buying their goods, employing their unwanted......I'm not sure I agree with the pastor you heard give that sermon, though I don't know enough to really make a judgment and I DO think that God is involved in everything, which I believe Pris believes, too, by the way.
I personally think this illegal immigration scourge is a nightmare though I know many Mexicans are coming to the Lord here in America..who knows why and how God works?

Faith said...

Yes, God brings good out of evil, that's another thing.

It's pretty simple really. If we are encountering so much evil, this injustice, this insanity of our leaders, and haven't been able to push it back all this time, and it's only getting worse and our own legal system is defending it, THAT much craziness going on sounds to me like this is MUCH bigger than anything human. And if anyone really DOES believe that God is in charge of everything I would challenge you to give a better explanation for why He's allowing this massacre of our nation and our traditions? There must be easier ways to bring some Mexicans to the Lord but if that's the only reason then perhaps we should jump for joy and not fight it?

Faith said...

Today's Christians are a biblically weak lot, that's all I can say. The Christians of the first generations of this nation knew that God judges nations, but today's Christians seem never to have heard of such a thing. Even Lincoln, not a great Christian as far as I know, with a wife who was into spiritism anyway, knew enough to say that we shouldn't be as concerned about God's being on our side as our being on God's side. Whatever happened to that wisdom in this nation? No wonder we're on the brink of destruction.

Anonymous said...

"If it's God's judgment we CANNOT succeed, we HAVE to repent."


Sorry Faith...but it's also time for an old bible quote.."an Eye for an eye"....I'm sick of seeing my country being lectured to by snobs, parasites, shithead liberals, mexican dictators, complicit , treasonous, seditious liberal congress mutts who actually applaud anarchy and chaos...and a weak kneed state department.

It's time for a fight...and Arizona is ready...and from what I read...17 other states are ready to do the same. The illegals and latinos...have finally overplayed their hand. And over 70% of Americans agree. So hey pendajos...keep waving your mexican colors in our faces...we love it when you show all of us where your allegiances really lie.

Major

Z said...

Faith, you can say this to ME? "we should jump for joy and not fight it?"

Are you joking?

I believe our dumping Israel in the mud and abortion are definitely getting us on the wrong side of God and I think he's patient as hell and eager for more and more people to have eternal life in His kingdom..

I just don't think our buying MX for cheap or whatever is pushing His buttons, but I DON'T KNOW...and how can we discuss His desires and anger? WE do not know.
We do know he can't be happy with America........look at how we took prayer out of the classroom and our kids are so immoral and so screwed up now it's almost unbelievable..that's no accident.

"our being on God's side" is RIDICULOUS as if WE ARE IN CONTROL? I agree with you......it's whose side HE is on who's blessed.
How he can bless America now is beyond me..but He'll never let HIS PEOPLE DOWN.
And I just don't think MX's treatment is quite as egregious as abortion, homosexuality, screwing Israel and getting God out of our public life. THOSe are REAL ISSUES, if I were to speak for HIM, of course :-)

Faith said...

Oh well.

Faith said...

I'm sick of it too, Major. I hope God blesses SOME of our efforts. I just have this nagging feeling He may not bless many of them. Man proposes but God disposes. Etc.

Anonymous said...

"Wow, you don't get it at all Pris. There is absolutely NOTHING God is not involved in and it's suicidal to pretend otherwise."

I never said He wasn't. However, I don't necessarily put a lot of stock in every preacher that comes down the pike.

Neither am I presumptuous enough to speak for God. I'll just hold on to my faith as I always have, with or without your approval. That is something I don't feel the need for.

Pris

Faith said...

Good thing I don't need yours either since I'm not going to get it.

Anonymous said...

Faith's right. It IS all about being on GOD's side. If we are on HIS side, then we don't have any need to worry about His being on OURS.

BUT in order to devote ourselves to being godly, we first have to know who and what God really is. The memorization and recitation of mere words even though they are written in the Bible. It takes UNDERSTANDING of what those words IMPLY. Very few have that, and those that do have it imperfectly.

Humility is a prerequisite for knowing God.

~ FreeThinke

Faith said...

Weird. That's a famous quote of Lincoln, quoted by politicians all the time, but it's been treated as if I made it up AND being argued with too?

“Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God's side

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry for the incomplete thought. What I MEANT to say, of course, was:

in order to devote ourselves to being godly, we first have to know who and what God really is. The memorization and recitation of mere words even though they are written in the Bible is not enough.

It takes UNDERSTANDING of what those words IMPLY. Very few have that, and those that do have it imperfectly.


Also, I would say to Faith and others that it doesn't matter so much who originated the remark: “... my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God's side." as the quality and essential veracity of the words themselves.

It's like the questions that arise about the the authenticity of William Shakespeare as the author of all that glorious blank verse.

Who could possibly care, except maybe Ann Hathaway and the children she had while married to William -- and they're all dead?

No. If they have any merit, the works live on long after the authors have been laid to rest, and it is the works about which we should concern ourselves.

All of which is another way of saying that "SPIRIT is the real and eternal, [while] MATTER is the unreal and temporal."

~ FreeThinke

Faith said...

FT, I honestly have no idea why you are saying what you are saying in this context. I'm still surprised that anyone would take issue with that quote.

Nobody was talking about "being godly," I was talking about a sermon I once heard about how America was unfair to Mexico in how we acquired the Southwest, and that our flood of illegal aliens and all the attendant insanity that backs it up is likely God's judgment for that injustice.

Pris and Z both took issue with that as well, but it makes perfect sense to me. Eye for an eye IS God's law as the Major said, and that means the punishment fits the crime, as it would if this is the case.

The only question I had in MY mind was how we were unfair to Mexico. I know we had a war, and I know we paid something for the territory too. I'd like to know more about it. Can you help me out? (It would be nice to have a solution to the illegals problem).

And really, I think ANY Christian ought to be able to "speak for God" when it comes to principles laid out in the Bible, and the principles of His law ARE laid out in the Bible and various examples of how He applied it against various nations including Israel are also laid out in the Bible. NOT to be able to draw inferences from such information about our own situation is to fail at Biblical understanding. The Old Testament was "given for our admonition" so we need to learn to let it admonish us.

Anonymous said...

YUCK POO!

DISGUSTING!

~ FT

Faith said...

OK, I'll bite. WHAT's disgusting?

Z said...

Faith, I do not take umbrage with an eye for an eye, please read my comment again...I only think the MX situation is not one which is straightforward enough for God to get upset, it's liberal crap that we stole, we FOUGHT WARS for that land, mostly.........and I'd say that, with abortion and other very unbiblical stuff going on today, God's got much more important things to talk about than Mexico.
I also think that pastor sounds like one of those SOCIAL JUSTICE jerks, don't you? That theme is their mantra, that MX v the BIG HORRID AMERICA (which pays for every MX who wants a hand out, which I'd have thought God might think was a very sweet thing to do?) (if you don't really know Scripture, but I know you do :-)

Faith said...

This is getting out of control, Z. The misunderstandings are just proliferating. I could try to sort them out but it's probably best just to drop the whole thing.

However, I do know about the preacher that he isn't a liberal. Conservative preachers also recognize when the nation needs repentance, and a few of them preached repentance at 9/11 too, recognizing it as God's judgment.

But he is the only one I've ever heard suggest that we were unfair to Mexico in that exchange and I'd still like to know more about that piece of history. The illegal aliens problem WOULD be eye for an eye in that case, don't you agree?

I guess I'll go research it.

Faith said...

I did find this statement about that war:

As late as 1880 the "Republican Campaign Textbook" by the Republican Congressional Committee[62] described the war as "Feculent, reeking Corruption" and "one of the darkest scenes in our history - a war forced upon our and the Mexican people by the high-handed usurpations of Pres't Polk in pursuit of territorial aggrandizement of the slave oligarchy."

Anonymous said...

What's disgusting?

The PICTURE of all that filth and garbage for one thing. The very fact that an ILLEGAL ALIEN is ABLE to sue ANY UNITED STATES CITIZEN for anything is another.

The thread moved very far away from the topic presented.

And, as you said, dear Faith, the misunderstandings are so thorny and prolific it's too exhausting even the think of sorting them out.

~ FT

Anonymous said...

As for the "We stole Mexico from the Mexicans, so therefore it's only right that god judge us harshly" argument, we'd have to then to say that EVERY SINGLE SQUARE INCH oF TERRITORY in EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY TODAY was at one time or another STOLEN from SOMEONE who had previously STOLEN it from SOMEONE ELSE.

The tradition of evil usurpation goes all the way back to Cain and Abel and Joseph and his Brothers -- and probably MUCH earlier.

So I have formed the opinion that ALL the suffering and hideous injustice perpetrated EVERYWHERE is in effect God's Judgment on the hopelessly flawed motivations and actions of the entire human race since the beginning of time.

So, I agree with you, Faith, but more from the perspective of Eternity than any localized bit of history.

~ FreeThinke

Faith said...

I look at it merely as a question of fact and practicality. If this is God's judgment then fighting it isn't going to get us very far much as I sympathize with the desire to fight it.

I found out that some were ethically opposed to our acquisition of the land at the time but I haven't found out more.

If we paid a reasonable price for it or if the war were just (there is such a thing) then we wouldn't be under God's judgment -- not all land transactions are stealing, of course -- but I don't know those things in this case, and was shocked when I heard it from that preacher that it might not have been fair.

In any case I've needed an explanation for how all this got so out of hand, how we can have so many in our midst who hate this nation and are allowing this kind of encroachment and calling it just. It's so crazy it needs a supernatural explanation.

Anonymous said...

You could be right, Faith. I am not sure, but there certainly seems to be some kind of Natural Law of Retribution at work. And we must not forget that NO Civilization has lasted very long in the great scheme of things, and that no society ever achieved perfection.

If we ever were in touch with God and truly obedient to the law as written in the Bible, we certainly have lost touch with that kind of purity, but I doubt any segment of humanity ever achieved that state of blessedness en masse. Just a few rare individuals here and there.

While I'm piling up clichés, I'll add that I believe "virtue is its own reward," and vice versa.

Most of our troubles as a species comes from WILLFULNESs and the desire to DOMINATE others.

Those very human failings set up "waves" of action and reaction that last millennia and cause great pain and suffering for countless millions.

In a very real sense life is like the ocean, itself, which never rests, never ceases and allows for no stability ever.

It can't be fought, so perhaps, it's best to let the currents take you wherever they will trusting all the while that God ALWAYS puts you where you OUGHT to be no matter what your situation may FEEL like?

We make ourselves desperately unhappy trying to make life something it was very likely never intended to be.

~ FT

Anonymous said...

You could be right, Faith. I am not sure, but there certainly seems to be some kind of Natural Law of Retribution at work. And we must not forget that NO Civilization has lasted very long in the great scheme of things, and that no society ever achieved perfection.

If we ever were in touch with God and truly obedient to the law as written in the Bible, we certainly have lost touch with that kind of purity, but I doubt any segment of humanity ever achieved that state of blessedness en masse. Just a few rare individuals here and there.

While I'm piling up clichés, I'll add that I believe "virtue is its own reward," and vice versa.

Most of our troubles as a species comes from WILLFULNESs and the desire to DOMINATE others.

Those very human failings set up "waves" of action and reaction that last millennia and cause great pain and suffering for countless millions.

In a very real sense life is like the ocean, itself, which never rests, never ceases and allows for no stability ever.

It can't be fought, so perhaps, it's best to let the currents take you wherever they will trusting all the while that God ALWAYS puts you where you OUGHT to be no matter what your situation may FEEL like?

We make ourselves desperately unhappy trying to make life something it was very likely never intended to be.

~ FT

Faith said...

Well, I think the nation needs to repent. At least the churches should do this since our leaders have abandoned that job, call for days of fasting and prayer and repentance on behalf of the nation. Oh yes we USED to be a Christian nation, oh yes we did. Even our Presidents called for fasting and prayer for the nation, and recognized the danger of being out of God's will. But now at least the churches should do it -- ALL the true churches. Then I think we'd see things change for the better. Not until.

Anonymous said...

Faith,

I agree that it would be much better if people woke up and realized how vain and foolish most of the things they think they "have" to have really are.

And I agree completely that a PUBLIC CONSCIOUSNESS and RECOGNITION of God's Presence was a vital factor in our development, even as I believe we ALWAYS fell far short of the professed ideals.

Not even to PROFESS those ideals any longer -- out of deference to non-believers -- puts us in a very weak position, indeed.

It is not "hypocrisy" to aim high, even though we know we are bound always to fall short.

If we do not TRY to reach God we will only fall deeper and deeper into the trough.

However, it is entirely possible that all the travails and transgressions we lament today MAY only be the tiniest blip on the horizon from the perspective of Eternity.

God's time is so different from ours we cannot begin to imagine how it must be for Him. "A thousand ages in Thy sight are but an evening gone."

All the best,

~ FT

Faith said...

FT, I'm sure you are quite sincere and your beliefs are pretty consistent too, but I'm sorry to say utterly at odds with God's revelation. You have NO idea what the gospel of salvation is all about - and that has to be because you reject so much of what the Bible has to say in favor of the parts you happen to like personally.

Embrace it ALL. You say it takes humility to follow God, right? The first step of humility is to admit HE's right, I'M wrong, no matter what it costs and it can cost a lot, as Jesus Himself says -- "take up your cross and follow Me" and Matthew 10:37-38: "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."

Most of today's church doesn't seem to know this, unfortunately, as they are into a God who seeks to please US and fulfill US and take care of US rather than a God who demands everything FROM us for His own sake.

We all have to go through this giving up of self -- it's a real loss, a real death, -- even the "circumcision" of the fleshly life, and it hurts. But it's the narrow way and the strait gate and the only way to Christ. It costs us many of our most cherished beliefs to submit to His rule. But oh the vistas that open and the comforts that descend when you do.

Of course I know you hate my doctrine as much as I hate yours.

Anonymous said...

I never have -- and never could -- hate anything about you, Faith. At least that much is true.

We may disagree, and occasionally get peeved with one another, but extreme dislike would be impossible. I have always doubted we are as far apart as you may believe.

I am quite sure that WE need GOD, but I am not at all sure the HE needs US.

Like many other species that have become extinct we too may pass from this earth eventually, but GOD will ALWAYS be. There is joy in acknowledging His Omnipotence, Omniscience and Omnipresence.

~ FT