MARINETTE, Mich. – Hundreds of people showed up Sunday for a memorial to a 15-year-old Wisconsin boy who held his social studies class hostage before shooting himself last week, setting aside the terrifying standoff to honor him as a quiet, helpful leader who loved the outdoors.
The boy's name is Sam Hengel and I can't imagine what his family is going through now with their boy dead.
I wonder, do you think there would have been a memorial service honoring him had he killed any of his hostages? He had two semi-automatic pistols and a backpack jammed with more than 200 rounds of ammunition and a pair of knives on him so it sounds like he was serious and had planned this for a while.
Is it a good sign for our society that his memory is honored and his family is consoled through this service? Maybe. But, is it a sign that we've lost our moral compass and, while we feel terrible for this boy who was obviously tormented, it would be better for society were it to condemn this kind of behavior? Or, maybe both. You decide.I'd like to know what you think. The boy was very, very well liked, so he was obviously a good kid, but something went very seriously awry....they say his 'emotional bucket was empty'.
Is there a way to console his family without honoring a boy who contemplated and even started the process of murdering friends? Would the parents of a child killed by Sam Hengel felt a memorial service for him was in line?
I'm not 100% sure how I feel, but the whole idea of this service hit me as strange..........What do you think?
geeeeZ
44 comments:
Yay! He killed himself when the jig was up! Jolly good show, chap!
Hmmm. Suppose someone took one of these memorial services hostage at gunpoint?
Posthumous Nobel Prize?
I wonder, do you think there would have been a memorial service honoring him had he killed any of his hostages?
Probably.
From this source:
Virginia Tech Killer Memorialized
Should a student be memorialized who is responsible for killing 32 people? A Virginia Tech student felt a moral obligation to add a "hokie stone" for gunman Seung-Hui
Cho. Understandably the stone has been removed once, because students and faculty don't view Cho as someone who is worthy of being memorialized. The student, who later identified herself as Katelynn Johnson, viewed her decision as "moral obligation". Katelynn remarked, "My family did not raise me to do what is popular, they raised me to do what is morally right." Once the student revealed herself, she feared backlash, but for the most part the reaction has been very positive because many came to understand Cho was a victim.
[...]
...Today, a "hokie stone" is sitting as a memorial for Seung-Hui Cho along with the 32 students who fell victim on April 16, 2007.
Do I agree with such memorials? Hell, no.
That said, the family has the right to hold services for their dead child. And certainly anyone could attend. I myself would not attend if I were the parent of any of the hostages; if I were a friend "outside that circle," I would consider attending. Funeral and memorial services are for the living, and each living being should make his own decision about attending.
I do wonder what set Hengel off on this rage.
There but for fortune, z.
Or you can sit and be judgmental from your safe isolation.
Or maybe we should put the family in stocks in the public square.
I think it is true that good people do bad things. My gut reaction is that this boy was a mere reflection of bad parenting. In many ways, the parents brought this plight upon the community; the parents ought to apologize to the community, rather than putting on an extravagant memorial service for a terrorist. No doubt the parents were raised in the permissive environment of socialist education where no one is ever held accountable.
Interesting poem on Te Writer's Almanac this morning.
Sins of the Father
by W.D. Ehrhart
Today my child came home from school in tears.
A classmate taunted her about her clothes,
and the other kids joined in, enough of them
to make her feel as if the fault was hers,
as if she can't fit in no matter what.
A decent child, lovely, bright, considerate.
It breaks my heart. It makes me want someone
to pay. It makes me think—O Christ, it makes
me think of things I haven't thought about
in years. How we nicknamed Barbara Hoffman
"Barn," walked behind her through the halls and mooed
like cows. We kept this up for years, and not
for any reason I could tell you now
or even then except that it was fun.
Or seemed like fun. The nights that Barbara
must have cried herself to sleep, the days
she must have dreaded getting up for school.
Or Suzanne Heider. We called her "Spider."
And we were certain Gareth Schultz was queer
and let him know it. Now there's nothing I
can do but stand outside my daughter's door
listening to her cry herself to sleep.
I think Ducky meant to say, "There, but for the Grace of God go I..."
Memorializing a suicide/potential homicide? (pl)
WHAT?!? WHAT!?! INSANITY.
Further, if this school was not a federally sanctioned target enriched environment, there would never have been a suicide memorial, I'm just sayin'!
Perhaps some "religious" persons will condemn you or I for this, but I submit that we lost our general moral compass some time ago and this idiotic "remembrance" merely illustrates the point. You may as well strip naked, paint yourself with stripes and worship a manhole cover in the street with candles and arcane mumbling as much as "honor" this shithead. This is Stockholm personified.
Let me ratchet it up one more notch. I always told my trainees this: if and when you arrive at a call where a teen or younger is armed with immediate and capable deadly force, take no chances. Primarily because, particularly these days, kids have no concept of mortality whatsoever and think that Life can merely be "reset" and all will be well. That makes juveniles, sometimes, even more dangerous than most adults, excepting the most psychopathic of adults. Had I been confronted with an immediate deadly-force-wielding juvenile, I would have dropped the hammer on him or her much more readily than most anyone else. Age makes no difference to me; capability and mindset do.
BZ
"Or you can sit and be judgmental from your safe isolation."
Everyone is judgemental even you. You just judged Z.
Pris
Z, I wrote a long comment, it published, and now, it's gone. Thought you'd want to know.
Pris
Z, here goes,I'm trying it again.
I remember Columbine, which ended in a horrifically different result, and how the families of the victims were expected to accept crosses of the perpetrators, to be included in their display of crosses for their dead children.
This added insult to the ultimate injury of the loss for so many families.
In this case, twenty seven human beings were held hostage and faced being killed at the whim of a potential murderer. I have no doubt they thought they were going to die.
Terror is terror, and terrorism is not worthy of being memorialized or honored.
To honor this young man, sends a message to anyone out there who is emotionally disturbed, or unhappy, that he can receive public attention, and even publicly honored as a victim himself.
To me, the community’s actions are perverse, and indeed shows how skewed their moral compass is.
This simply encourages another to commit an unthinkable act such as this one, because “the kid’s emotional bucket is empty”. As if it excuses utter chaos or devastation.
Imo, the family of this potential murderer, should have announced that the service would be private, and only for the family and close friends.
Notice, the students and teacher are merely players, extras, in this deadly plot. The potential murderer, is the star.
Something is really wrong here. Too many people have their priorities all screwed up.
Pris
beamish, imagine if he'd killed one of the children?
Ducky, maybe you could have answered the question I posed instead of your typical drivel. Honestly, I could have written your comment for you. You write the obvious, things ANY decent person would think, and did if you actually read my post, and insult instead of entering into a conversation about morality. Well...maybe morality's too threatening to some; actually having to decide one way or the other.
By the way, you don't know me, you don't know from my 'safe isolation', TRUST ME.
Mustang, you're probably right...I just know I couldn't consider the service as they're doing it.
I guess what bothers me most is those who go to it, the 'hundreds'...
we've become very weak hearted and weak headed because of liberal indoctrination; and, of course, some dope will take from that that we have no hearts and don't feel for the boy or his family, the taking of which is why we're in this mess anyway.
Brooke, I'm with you. I'm not sure, but having heard Ducky on God, I'm not sure he understands PURE GRACE, hard to say the phrase correctly when you don't understand it.
Pris, thanks...absolutely nothing I can do but recommend copying before we paste. I'm not sure if it's only longer comments that blogger's kicking back because it seems like every time this happens, someone says it was a 'long comment'....or if people say that just because it's so much more frustrating when we've written a long one and it doesn't print. It hasn't happened to me yet, but I suspect it's length.
No Brooke, I meant to say there but for fortune.
Odd, Ducky, your choice of phrase.
Maybe you meant had he been rich?
Whatever...that, fortune, God, whatever, your implication has absolutely nothing to do with my question. Whether it was them or us, it's a bad situation.
I'd hope we'd all feel sympathy for the family in any case.
MEMORIAL SERVICE is the question: Good idea or bad idea, people?
A kid could have killed 27 people and did scare them and their families out of their wits for a full six hours, committed suicide in front of them, and hundreds honor him.
On the other hand, he was obviously a well liked boy...something went awry.
Either way, his parents are suffering deeply, I would imagine..how could they not?
Memorial Service to honor the boy?
Interesting moral question, in my opinion.
BZ you are right on about kids being more dangerous because they have no moral guidance or as Z said, no moral compass. They have been raised in a society where there are no consequences for wrong actions. I've seen too many of them, talked to too many of them and found that by the time I got them it was too late. Their next stop was jail or the grave. Jail did nothing for them but at least the grave relieved society of any further ills they may have inflicted upon it. Sound harsh? Ask how harsh it is to the family or families of those these perps killed or maimed.
Was a memorial service in order? What was the intent of the service? Was it a simple service to eulogize the individual without glorification? If so, then perhaps it could be said it was in order.
Was it an attempt to somehow make a hero out of the individual or somehow diminish his act? Then by all means it was totally inappropriate.
Did I answer the question? No, but then only those who attended could actually do that.
This read like an Onion piece when I first ran across it. I don't wish any more unhappiness on the family of this boy, but I'm not going to be throwing him any memorials either.
God forbid there were another terrorist attempt to fly into one of our buildings. What if the terrorist at the last minute decided to kill himself instead. Are we going to have memorials for him for not killing the others?
Wow, Ticker, excellent comments.
You, too, Cube, thanks VERY much.
As I typed the question, "is it right or wrong to go to a memorial service for a child who meant to kill 27 people, holding them hostage for six hours, carring guns and knives and ammo.." I thought "I have to ask THIS? Are we NUTS?"
No, Cube, I doubt strongly that we'd memorialize someone in the terrorist situation you describe.
And yes, Ticker, it's only those THERE who can tell why they're there.
I sure can see, with NO problem, a small family/very close friend, funeral for the boy...how could they NOT? He was a human being in obviously a LOT of pain....but for 'hundreds' to appear seems worrisome to me somehow.
When I hear things like this happening and we see kids on the news outside the school in huge hugs, and then hear about the grief counselors, I wonder how we handled it before the days of grief counseling and 'big boy/girl hugs'....then I remember, it didn't happen before..or at least VERY rarely.
And, we were stronger then; we could get through things, we GRIEVED, we hurt, we allowed ourselves to go ON. The news didn't make a huge stink over every ugly story, we kept things quiet because they were sordid and sad and didn't help anything; a trait I find highly underrated.
We're quite a different nation now...where does a country go from here when we can't take anything without soft/fuzzy/big hug events.
I don't think there's anything wrong with the boy's family having a memorial for him. I think it's very strange for hundreds of people to show up. Why are they there other than to call attention to themselves? My next question is why pretend as though you have some connection to this awful crime?
Like the old Chinese curse, we are living in interesting times... I long for the old boring days *sigh*
Cube "I don't think there's anything wrong with the boy's family having a memorial for him. I think it's very strange for hundreds of people to show up." I share that opinion.
I'm not sure hundreds can call attention to themselves by going, BUT you make another excellent point; while the family can't exactly hide from this hideous thing their child tried to do, it is odd to make such a huge occasion out of his memorial, isn't it....it does draw more attention. Well, let's face it, I'd not have blogged it had I not thought the whole thing was curious and says a lot about our society I wish I didn't have to think......
Well here's the answer z, as a lot of your posters, in typical fashion, look for who is to blame, people came together to support each other because a young boy, for whatever reason, stared into the abyss and before he could handle it, the abyss stared back.
What else would decent people do? A public shunning of the parents. Why do you even ask the question>
I remember Columbine, which ended in a horrifically different result, and how the families of the victims were expected to accept crosses of the perpetrators, to be included in their display of crosses for their dead children, which added insult to the ultimate injury of the loss for so many families.
In this case, twenty seven human beings were held hostage and faced being killed at the whim of a potential murderer. I have no doubt they thought they were going to die.
Terror is terror, and terrorism is not worthy of being memorialized or honored.
To honor this young man sends a message to anyone out there who is emotionally disturbed, or unhappy, that he can receive public attention, and even publicly honored as a victim himself.
To me, the community’s actions are perverse, and indeed shows how skewed their moral compass is.
This simply encourages another to commit an unthinkable act such as this one, because “the kid’s emotional bucket is empty”. As if it excuses utter devastation.
Imo, the family of this potential murderer, should have announced that the service would be private, and only for the family and close friends.
Notice, the students and teacher are merely players, extras, in this deadly plot. The potential murderer, is the star.
Something is really wrong here. Too many people have their priorities all screwed up.
Pris
"What else would decent people do? A public shunning of the parents. Why do you even ask the question"
Ducky, a public shunning of the parents? No. Since when do hundreds of people not going to a funeral service, constitute a shunning.
Decent people can respect the privacy of that family, rather than go out of their way to pay homage to, and make a spectacle of, a dastardly act. Which is exactly what took place.
Do you know how close that act came to being a slaughter? Or doesn't it matter Ducky.
Pris
Ducky, "What else would decent people do? A public shunning of the parents. Why do you even ask the question"
Really? you REALLY think that anybody'd want that? Did you gather that from anything said here?
No, I don't. I ask the question because there are not many societies which would turn out in the hundreds for a boy who could have killed almost 30 people.
Please read the comments and the post and don't jump to such nasty conclusions again, it does nobody any good and is, frankly, insulting.
Trust me, Ducky, Socialists are not the only people with feelings. They may, however, be the only people who can't understand that it's not always beneficial to honor potential murderers.
Pris, you make another good point; what a terrible message it gives when a potential murderer is honored. Yes, a small funeral, like I'd said somewhere in another comment...who would deny ANYBODY that, with close friends and family?
Well here's the answer z, as a lot of your posters, in typical fashion, look for who is to blame, people came together to support each other because a young boy, for whatever reason, stared into the abyss and before he could handle it, the abyss stared back.
Actually he had nothing to do with setting up the memorial service, as he was too busy getting mopped up with a sponge and put in a bag.
His parents set up this memorial, acquired the auditorium space for it.
It was about them, not their dead kid. Trying to promote some self-esteem into a corpse. Rather pathetic parenting, IMHO.
If the kid had killed someone else, would this memorial have happened?
Would you attend?
Beamish "If the kid had killed someone else, would this memorial have happened?
Would you attend?"
THat's what we've all been asking...he could have killed 27 people who lived in abject terror for six hours as it is, and then had to see someone kill himself.
This is about political correctness....that 'big group hug' thing that turns my stomach.
People have to look 'embracing'...when this is not a moment to embrace anything...it's a time to be there for his parents in a private dignified, quiet way, it's a time to try to figure out what caused the boy to do this so MAYBE they can prevent another one.
When most of us were young, we used to respect people in this country, look up to heroes, and hoped to emulate the GOOD THINGS they did, not killing, not doing drugs, not kids born out of wedlock, the things so many of our kids have to 'look up to' these days. You can't have a good American hero because the leftwingers will pull them down..the media mocks faith and goodness...it's tough for our kids.
today, it's all about accepting everything; that's confusing to kids, the know deep inside it's wrong and morally screws them up, too, in my opinion.
Obviously, I'm oversimplifying and leaving a lot of what's on my mind out of this comment but...it's a start
Besides, in a standoff situation where a 15 year old kid can have acquired two guns and 200 rounds of ammunition to bring to school, there's absolutely no excuse for why none of the other kids could not have had the firepower to match him with their own guns brought from home.
What kind of a world do we live in where we can't even let our kids take guns to school openly?
"Dear Son, this is the Israeli Military Industries .50 caliber Desert Eagle. Forget shooting the clock off the wall in history class. This baby will take out the pencil sharpener in Algebra class through the intervening walls three rooms down from history class. It barks loud in enclosed spaces, so put on some ear protection. And be careful. It's got a high recoil. It'll kick the dog snot out of you. Now, I want you to carry this in your bookbag, just in case you need to have a moment of self-discovery. I love you. Dad.
P.S. - take out the trash."
BEAMISH!!!
" You can't have a good American hero because the leftwingers will pull them down..the media mocks faith and goodness...it's tough for our kids."
I don't find that all surprising what with the feminization of men and the metrosexual whimpiness of our society in general. Where active boys are assumed to be ADDT and where raging, restless hormones are viewed as a threat to society.
Just take a look at our uhhh, "fearless" leaders today. Clinton, a draft dodger and a socialist. Kerry...a wimp and a fraud who manufactured "wounds" to bump up his political cred. A ( thank God dead ) gone Murtha who vilified our bravest Marines as "cold blooded murderers". Is a Marine supposed to have a heart? Isn't a Marine the essence of a trained fearless killing machine? Not with today's ROE's.
Ironically it's the Marine Corp that wants to remain all MEN...and only STRAIGHT men. Because they know what cohesion and unity is about. To say nothing of the male to male bond that exists between warriors that have each others back in war time.
Now that I mention that, isn't the PFC "Manning" ( terrible choice of a surname I believe ) freak who turned over our secrets to the scumbag at wikileaks, gay? He had a tough choice to make?
And that wasn't loyalty to his oath, to his country? But, it was to his lover? So it's no wonder some of the Generals are opposed to this DADT being overturned.
There's no real men left anymore in the country. Or in truth, there's very few left in the country.
Women, what would you rather have in a man? A sensitive, wimp that sheds tears whenever he watches Oprah? Or a man that knows when the shit hits the fan, ther'll be no tears? Someone you can count on ( as all women have for thousands of years in spite of these attempts to redefine male, macho and masculinity ) to stand between you and the scum? Or a wuss, a sensitive wuss whom you can't trust or depend on to protect a woman? As a man should do.
Man, like it or not is the stronger version of mankind that was put here to protect and provide for the family. And the head of that family is motherhood and a woman. We revere women, or used to until the Harvey Milks came along.
Why do I use the "handle" RedWood? Think about it for a moment. That's right. Strong, resilient, dependable and everlasting. That's what's at stake here, manhood, strength and dependability. That's what's threatened here...
RedWood, I'm so glad you've become a geeeZ participant...what an astonishing comment. And yes, you are a redwood.
You mention a lover of Manning..is that a rumor, or? I haven't heard about that.
And, wasn't it stunning that the bigwigs were all for repealing Don't Ask, Don't Tell, but McCain stood fast and said ASK THE MEN. I've heard too many men say they'd feel very awkward KNOWING who the gay guy was in the showers or in the bunk above theirs. It's just uncomfortable.
Let them serve...let them remain dignified and silent. We all have crosses to bear and that's one of them, I believe.
My wonderful husband was a man who was extremely strong, physically and emotionally, yet he might have shed a tear or two in our approx 20 years together and it would have been for a newly dead relative or something.....Women need to have someone strong with them, cherishing them, protecting them, I agree with you. It's a great privilege to be treated like that and young women have messed it up for themselves by not understanding that. WHat a tragedy.
There are certain things in life which are NATURAL and some are UNNATURAL and, since we've been mocking the natural and championing the unnatural, our country's gone quickly down hill.
Z you asked what we did before the days of school grief counselors etc. The answer you gave was we didn't have them because this kind of thing didn't happen or rarely.
You are correct. It didn't happen. This type of action began to happen when the "Humanist" "progressives" or what ever label one wishes to put there on this collection of "misthinkers" arrived on the scene.
With them they brought the idea that there are no absolutes. There is no absolute truth according to them but then that in itself is contradictory for they make an absolute statement. Without absolutes there are no consequences and you have heard me stated on many occasions that without consequences we will continue to see such actions. I will reword that statement and say that without absolutes we will continue to see even more of such actions. The "absolutist, humanist, progressives" believe in no God, no creator, no life after death, no truths. With out these foundations what else can you expect from the young people who are being fed this line?
When a tragedy occured in my younger days (highschool) we didn't have grief counselors rushing to the schools , we comforted each other. We believed in absolutes. We believed in God, a creator, a hereafter and we believed in each other. Yes we were stronger perhaps in those days but it was because we had a foundation of truths, of absolutes on which to stand. Today's youth, for the most part do not have that. And that my friend is why we see this type of action and why we see out of control young people and adults today. May God help us.
Ticker, I was just typing a comment at your place then saw you were doing the same here...yours is MUCH better :-)
I like that term ABSOLUTES...I've not been able to well describe my feelings and was clumsy in my writing, but you captured it with that word........we MUST have absolutes...
They say kids do better with discipline which they SAY they don't, they REVOLT, but they NEED it and recognize that nobody's caring when it's not there...Parents have been conned into not believing in ABSOLUTES..that 'all kids are different', that 'they'll be okay, just let them do their thing', ' be their friend', etc., and that's failing miserably.
I don't know how we change things around. How do you stem this tide?
It's an argument for End Times that we can't....wow
BEAMISH!!!
Aw c'mon, Z. What 15 year old kid didn't have access to guns and ammunition when we were growing up? This is clearly not the parents fault. Maybe it was that danged ol' rock 'n' roll or video games what done it.
Beamish, it is that ol' rock'n roll...somehow, listening to that 'junk' makes ammunition just POP out of your pores and then it does something to your head that wants to KILL! :-)
NOTHING to do with the parents....
Last I checked , restraining people without their consent, meant a crime was being or had been committed.
Now, the fact that this young fellow did not follow up and kill the people is just luck or whatever.
And yes, some people are just screwy.
I think it would be in better taste not to go to a memorial for this young man, and just send condolences to the parents for the loss of their obviously messed up child.
But 100's of folks showing up for a service to honor his memory?
Something is certainly off whack here , and all I can say is, I am glad I do not live in that town.
And there is nothing wrong with having a bit of morality. If there is, then I suppose having any sort of law is just a waste of time.
Heaven forbid someone should be judged.
That would certainly be worse , pointing out criminal behavior and hurting society and all those terrible concepts.
Sometimes parents try their hardest to raise good children, but sometimes they don't and sometimes they just might be at fault for what their offspring do.
I do not know why this kid did what he did, but is was wrong and criminal and could have been even more horrible.
Guess using the term of"dodging a bullet" would be in bad taste here, but seriously...reading about this , makes me realize that I am lucky .
SCDOTTR
SCDOTTR: "Heaven forbid someone should be judged."
That's the problem the leftwingers hoisted on us with "I'm okay, you're Okay" and all the idiot stuff from the Sixties about "don't judge" "If it feels good, DO it!" What a terrible bill of goods they sold America. And America fell for it because she has a big heart and it felt good to never condemn or judge.
We've done our kids a terrible disservice and screwed up two generations...
Judgment isn't ours, it's God's, but we can sure steer people in a better direction, point out that their lives will be better if they live disciplined, productive lives, exhibit good examples and hope they follow them, right? It's all part and parcel of JUDGMENT, I think...we owed it to kids to get them to live better lives and we let them down, I think.
email me, it's tough for me now and I can use your company.
Beamish, it is that ol' rock'n roll...somehow, listening to that 'junk' makes ammunition just POP out of your pores and then it does something to your head that wants to KILL! :-)
NOTHING to do with the parents....
Nickelback and Mariah Carey does that for me. Clearly they're Satanic.
;)
I think the memorial service was good, as long as it was respectful and dignified, as it probably helped his family heal.
A few years ago there was a murder of a young single mother here in the town that I live in. A young man broke into her home, abducted her, left her baby alone all night, and brutally murdered her. He was convicted and given life in prison. The parents of the young woman received overwhelming support, obviously.
And it was beautiful to watch the ladies in my previous church gather around the family of the convicted murderer. His parents were devastated. The women of my sunday school class loved on them for months to come, and it was received with open arms.
It's easy to forget who all is hurt in violent situations. Grace goes a long way towards healing.
After reading all of the comments, my previous comment seems sort of pie-in-the-sky. I didn't read any details about the memorial and I don't know if it was glorifying the disturbed boy or not. I just think that forgiveness does more for the giver than for the receiver.
Some of the people who attended the memorial may have needed to in order to move on...
but I realize that some may have been there for the circus that it could have been.
"RedWood, I'm so glad you've become a geeeZ participant...what an astonishing comment."
Thank you. But it is I, who is grateful for your contributions and for providing such a noble forum for someone like me, to participate in.
You too...are a "RedWood", Ms. Z. I salute and thank you for welcoming me to such an honorable place as this is, for me to sound off.
Jen, that's a good point...and who knows, maybe some do need to publicly forgive.
RedWood, thanks so much. I'm glad you're enjoying the forum.
Redwood: BINGO.
BZ
Jesus would have been at the memorial service to console the family and friends of the boy. If you call yourself a Christian this is a cut and dry issue. Just like the Amish did after that massacre. You either live the word to the best of your ability or you're not really a Christian.
Vegas, I think that's true, but I think Jesus would have done it in a more private manner.
Subtly was not in His nature. The only time he withdrew from the public was when he was spending time with God. What about the lady at the well? How about the prostitute who bathed his feet with perfume and her tears? How about driving out the money changers? None of that was in private.
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