Wednesday, July 3, 2013

Christian kids..SHUT UP... But Muslim kids CAN pray...what?

I saw THIS ARTICLE and just had to post a few parts of it here:

"In a decision that is sure to incite passions on both sides of the debate over religion in schools, a high school in Bloomfield Hills, Mich. officially outlawed postgame prayer in response to a formal complaint about violation of separation of church and state that was filed by the American Civil Liberties Union. According to the Oakland Press, the case in question focuses on Bloomfield Hills (Mich.) Lahser High, where the school’s football team led traditional post-game prayers at midfield, allowing members of its team and opponents to take part in the tradition of offering thanks for another game completed.
The Tebowing comes in when one considers the position players take when involved in such prayers, standing on one knee with head bowed (which, of course, was the motivation behind Tebow’s original craze-inducing pose in the first place). Tebow, of course, is a devout Christian who has made a point of dedicating all of his accomplishments to the big man that Christians believe in upstairs.
According to the Press, school officials immediately said that they would conform to the ACLU’s proposed guidelines and would not hold any postgame prayer sessions on school property. At the same time, Lahser officials insisted that they had never intended any student to feel uncomfortable because of the prayer sessions, which allegedly began more than a decade ago at the behest of a student athlete."

Then there's this at the end of the article:

"Nonetheless, Loria acknowledged responsibility for the religious transgressions because of his knowing presence, and made it clear that the practice would be stopped before any other athletes were left uncomfortable in future seasons."

"the big man that Christians believe in upstairs?"   "religious transgressions..." praying?

Could a student (it was one who complained and won) just not participate?  Are we so unable to feel a little discomfort in life (if that's truly the case) that we deny 20 guys who want their right to pray?  (TRUST ME, if muslim kids bend over for prayer at school, we'll be asked to step over them quietly and don't disturb....I just Googled and found PLENTY, CHECK THIS OUT and read my article again, will you?). it's okay now for Muslims but not Christians.  We have to swallow that and we've had to swallow a HELL of a lot lately, right?    But, let's get back to this article's information..I get that it's a public school...I do.  But, let them pray somewhere...make it a 'prayer only' zone and then that one kid won't have to feel uncomfortable.  Is it really "uncomfortable" or is something he feels an uncomfortable tug of interest to?  Maybe they can go pray in the muslim prayer zone at the high school or something? :-)

What a mess we are in this country.   Ya, don't let the guys pray, for God's sake...but make sure you let Morning After pills be available to girls of all ages with no prescription now, okay?   Oh, yes....

What would you see as a compromise for all those Christian kids who believe in "the big man that Christians believe in upstairs" (can't the author just say JESUS or GOD? WOW)  and that one who feels pouty over their praying?
Oh, and make sure that coach feels he has to apologize, too.  We're really big on apologies in America.  Damned little wusses we've become.



Always On Watch said...

And THIS: Student wins right to display Palestinian flag at Texas graduation.

PS: I'm up at this UNGODLY hour because I have a rip-roaring case of iritis (aka "uveitis") and a stye. PAIN!

Robert Sinclair said...

Afterwards, the Palestinian student cut off the head of the Assistant Principal ... it was a matter of honor, and the student lived happily ever after.

The End.

Jack Whyte said...

The problem, Z ... is that too many Christians are willing to compromise at all. I say that compromise forces you to give up your principles in inches, rather than in yards.

No compromise!

sue hanes said...

Z - Why can't we settle this by having a few moments of silence at the beginning of the school day - and then any student can pray to whomever they want.

I do not believe in religion entering in at sporting events. If a player is thankful of a victory let him or her say a silent prayer to themselves.

Why make such a big fuss about it.
And I don't think Muslims should be allowed to have prayer time at school.

Constitutional Insurgent said...

I don't think any special privileges should be granted for any religion during school hours. Faith is a personal belief system and unconnected to the endstate of public school tenure.

The only difference between the analogy given, is that one requires prayer at specific times during the day.

Prayer can logically be conducted at anytime during the school day, so what is being argued isn't the right to prayer....that has never, and can never be banished....what is being argued is the special privilege of organized and publicly recognized prayer during school activities.

Z said...

AOW, I'm so sorry you're in such pain! How long might that last?
I can't address the Palestinian flag at an American's all getting a little too much for me.

And the ACLU backed up the student because, after all, it was only a lousy American Christian who died. what do they do? The ACLU's financially loaded; that school can't afford to fight.
I'm hearing more and more that that's how they're going to take us down; we just have to give in because the money's not there in small towns like that...The ACLU is well aware of that.

Sue...I don't see why silent prayer of thanks isn't enough, either.....but I love that American kids even felt the desire to pray together.
And, if our colleges are building foot-washing tubs for muslim students who suddenly (after 9/11) said they can't study with dirty feet, you know muslims will get to continue praying while our kids cannot.

CI...the double standard here is clear.

Constitutional Insurgent said...

"...the double standard here is clear"

I'll admit that it's clear when one has a distinct position on one side or the other. Of course we have other schools who don't have Muslim prayer acomodations - and - allow orgainzed prayer.

If a moment of silence is an appropriate compromise, why also isn't foregoing all of the above, during school hours?

Z said...

I don't know of schools who allow organized non-muslim prayer.


Did FOX or CNN show the Jodie Arias trial all day on their broadcasts?

Constitutional Insurgent said...

You don't know of any schools who allow post-game prayer? Ever been to texas?

Constitutional Insurgent said...

I think they showed the Arias trial to an extent, where I was forced to turn off the TV, even for just having it on for background noise. I had HLN on this morning, and they actually boasted about their channel being the only one to show every single minute, live and unedited.

That should be a mark of shame, not pride.

Z said...

am supposed to be at work in 2 minutes. Oh, well! :-)

i've only been to El Paso and not for a game.
And I'm talking about daily the 5x a day of Muslim students.

i think showing the wholes trials is despicable; "got to fill those minutes between ads with as many people as possible" $$$
and hurt our American psyche in the doing.

Constitutional Insurgent said...

Generally speaking, Muslims will only need to pray once the during school day, and even then there are allowances for missing a prayer time.

Again, ditch the controversy and do not accomodate religious practices during school hours.

And I completely agree with you on the trial coverage.

Z said...

CI, I'm with you except on team prayers since they only involve those team members who choose to.
Or want to kiss up to the coach, which I'm fine with.

Muslims will win this fight, believe me...with the explicit agreement of many Americans.

EVERYBODY: I just saw Juan Williams on FOX saying that 80% of us with our own health insurance "won't be affected" by this premium's already gone up some, how about yours?

Ducky's here said...

Curious what the frenzy is about (well, actually it's not to difficult to figure out).

1. It's settled law that official organized prayer in school is not permitted. Why get in a twist every time it is upheld? Why not get upset that the divine is being trivialized by the association with athletics?

2. The article z also links to indicates that Muslims will be permitted to pray. Why not? Christians may pray but not in an official organized fashion. There is nothing "special" going on here.

3. I gave AOW's link a cursory read and understand it to say that flags are allowed at the graduation and the issue here is someone having the temerity to be Palestinian. I'm sure she apologizes for not declaring herself stateless like some Likud tool.

Constitutional Insurgent said...

Z - When you get a chance, could you clarify your exception for team prayers?

Law and Order Teacher said...

I'm a product of Catholic school so prayer wasn't and isn't a problem. As for prayer in public schools I'm of the mind that students can do as they wish. We have an FCS chapter in our school and it's wildly attended.

I know the advisor and I'm sure he would make accommodations for anyone. They do public service kinds of things and meet on Fridays for prayer and reflection. You know, real subversive stuff.

Anonymous said...


Ducky, exactly right. Do you think Muslim kids are just dropping to their knees to pray all over the campus whenever their time's up, or are they meeting in groups? :-)

CI...Clearly, I mean at a Friday night game or appeared that all of the team but one wanted to pray; very different than "prayer in school" in a classroom or over the loudspeaker. Nobody's pushing this prayer and being an atheist or agnostic and standing by shouldn't bother anybody who doesn't feel some off 'pull' toward praying himself.

LandO....VERY subversive, isn't it.
we're letting go of our roots in America and it doesn't look better, does it.
I know a Christian-based high school where, in chapel, ALL KIDS are led in prayer as the leader prayers something pertinent to the group that day and aloud...some don't even bow their heads and that is FINE with that school, which has muslims and Jews in it..FINE. All the director asks from them is respect. And, funny enough, those kids are able to. Who knew? :-)

Ducky's here said...

z, why does it matter if they are meeting in groups?
What seems to matter to you is that they are there at all.

If they were broadcasting the azan you would have a case but I didn't get that in the article.

Pris said...

Sue, is it alright by you that I wear a cross around my neck 24/7?

My point is, every individual has the right to recognize God no matter where he or she is.

There are many baseball players who point to the sky (God), when he scores a run. It's their way of thanking Him. Personally, I think that's great.

We have a rookie on the Dodger team who writes Dios, in the dirt and bows his head, before he walks to the plate. It should be obvious to anyone, he's asking God to be with him, and help him succeed.

This player is batting about 440, so perhaps he'd not do as well if he wasn't allowed to be himself and trust in God. Who has the right to stop him? No one IMO.

We're either free or we are not.

Sam Huntington said...

I think we need more foot baths at state colleges and universities. Also, imported prayer rugs. Hashish pipes would be nice, too. You see, there is just no such thing as kissing too much moslem ass.

Z said...

Ducky, where are you going with this? Do you REALLY not see the point I AM making, or ...? WHAT?

Do you not see a parallel between muslim kids bowing to allah in a group on the school field or in the gym but Christian kids can't pray together? You get that? :-)

PRIS, remember a piece I wrote very early on? An interview that was published, which I wrote about a young Santa MOnica High school student who told me that her choir teacher had to take off her cross because one student was offended? She doesn't wear a cross at school anymore. This stuff is happening...we have to face it and do something.

Sam, you make me laugh. You're right..NO such thing.

EVERYBODY: I've been at work all day and hadn't heard what a friend just emailed me: is it TRUE that Obama threatened the military in Egypt with holding back funds if they interceded against the Muslim Brotherhood?
Tell me that's not true.

Impertinent said...


Juan is a moron and I can't stand to hear or see the whiny racist dirtball.

"my premium's already gone up some, how about yours? "

Mines doubled in one year...and my threshold has gone from 5K to other words...we have to pay the first 10K! Three years ago we were at a 1500 threshold. There's not much my plan pays for these days....We're getting totally shafted and lied to by Obullshit. And the Insurance Mafia.

Impertinent said...


"is it TRUE that Obama threatened the military in Egypt with holding back funds.."

I think we're coming to a line in the sand with this muslim terrorist loving POS.

Constitutional Insurgent said...

"is it TRUE that Obama threatened the military in Egypt .........."

I haven't seen a hint of that anywhere.

If anything, our military to military relationship with Egypt has probably had a role in empowering them to depose Morsi.

Always On Watch said...

I don't know how much longer the pain will continue; the condition can continue at some level for a few months. I see the doctor again in 2 weeks -- sooner if I show signs of rejecting the IOL or showing signs of detached retina.

Z said...

CI, I'm hoping that's not true; have emailed the person who sent it to me for links other than WND or Free Republic; I never reprint their junk. EVER.

AOW, I am SO SORRY! Pain in one's eye is so all-consuming....tiring, always there, etc...Am so hoping it goes very soon. in my prayers..xx

Z said...

CI, I think that's utter didn't happen.

You sure always have Obama's back, though, I have to admit!
I'm all for fairness, but you seem to take it to a new level!

Constitutional Insurgent said...

What are you you talking about?

Z said...

You've got to love Obama telling Morse earlier today to tell the protesters to stay peaceful :-)

Z said...

CI, I'm talking about the accusation that Obama had warned the military he'd cut funds if they didn't play ball with Morsi.
It's rubbish.

Constitutional Insurgent said...

OK, I was also wondering about the second point - 'having Obama's back'?

Pris said...

I just saw on the news that, the military in Egypt escorted Morsi out of his leadership, and he complied. The military is now in charge.

Yes Z, I do remember your writing that piece. Until people like that choir director, walk out, and others go with that person, we lose.

Can you imagine all the beautiful chorales based on faith which are no longer acceptable in schools, like Handel's Messiah?
It's time for us not to comply with this form of idiocy.

There is nothing in the Bill of Rights, or the Constitution, which gives offensiveness power over anything!

Constitutional Insurgent said...

"There is nothing in the Bill of Rights, or the Constitution, which gives offensiveness power over anything!"

I agree with this completely. No citizen has a right to not be offended.

Dave Miller said...

CI, let me say that I am sure we would not agree on everything, but I appreciate your conservatism in that it seems truly to be searching for a secular for gov't to express itself.

As a Christian myself, honestly, I find those in game, pregame, and postgame group prayers silly. Really, if both sides are asking for God's favor, is he telling one of them no?

Are they asking for Him to be with them, when he already is?

It is trivial.

I think even the bible says "when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private."

I know this is in the Sermon on the Mount that not many Christians take seriously, but those are Jesus' words, at least as we understand them.

How does any public prayer square with this direct teaching from Jesus?

Constitutional Insurgent said...

Dave - Thanks, what you say makes sense. My Conservative ideology is beholden to logic and reason over emotional reactions. That often seems to put me at odds with the GOP almost as much as the Democrats.

The fundamental role of government [beyond defense] should be the protection of maximum liberty for the individual citizen, but not at the cost of special rights for some.

Scotty said...

Dave Miller said: "I think even the bible says "when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private."

I agree, I think that it also goes hand in hand with "don't let your right hand know what your left hand it's doing"

Z said...

Pris, sure, the choir director should have complained and then she'd have probably lost her job. But, you're right...we're giving in.

And yes, Moris's out and, by the way:

MY FRIEND WAS RIGHT; Obama IS threatening taking money away....apparently he's not real happy that this has happened and Congress is supposed to revisit financial gifts if there is a "coup"...the odd thing is that Obama apparently went to all lengths not to use that word, BUT he wants to take money back.
Go figure.

"no right not to be offended?" then let that one out of 20 who was offended when the team players got together for a prayer not be rewarded for being offended.

Dave; it's never silly to ask for God's favor and your words show such a lack of understanding, with all due respect, of prayer and faith that I don't want to say more...
"he already is" you don't pray?
I don't believe God answers prayers as much as he asks us to pray to keep near Him...for us to come to Him. To be grateful via prayer, etc.
And ya...most Christians take the Sermon on the Mount fairly seriously :-)

CI...we have every right here to display our sensitivities, discuss the ins and outs and play off others' thoughts...maybe you call that "emotional", I just call it being human.
I don't blog to show what I know; I blog to get conversation going. And I will never hold back from displaying my emotions on these subjects EVER. EVER. You'll just have to continue to think of yourself as the logical and reasoned one here. You and Dave, that is :-)

Z said...

Scotty, thanks for reminding me...
there is also this huge list of encouragement to PRAY TOGETHER...:

Constitutional Insurgent said...

"no right not to be offended?" then let that one out of 20 who was offended when the team players got together for a prayer not be rewarded for being offended."

Or those who wish to profess their faith, as a collective, with the intent of public recognition and during school functions.

"..we have every right here to display our sensitivities, discuss the ins and outs and play off others' thoughts...maybe you call that "emotional", I just call it being human."

I think you've mistaken my meaning. You had an emotional reaction to what I said. I have never implied [because it would frankly be silly] that somebody doesn't have a right to use emotional reactions as their intellectual currency. I try to follow a path that leads to the core of an issue, as opposed to a never-ending diatribe of tit for tat emotional reactions. That's why our media is so abhorrent; that's their format.

I'm interested in the tangible effect of an issue, far more than how it makes someone feel. I call that human. And as a fallible human, I don't always remain true to that path.

Z said...

"public recognition?" you think those kids prayed with their coach for public recognition?

Constitutional Insurgent said...

Z - That's the entire intent behind the issue of prayer in school. A student can pray at absolutely anytime they feel the need. Prayer doesn't need special allowances to occur.

Z said...

.......except if they want to pray with friends in view of others, or if one is offended, you're right, school prayer is JUST FINE :-)

Scotty said...

Constitutional Insurgent said...
Z - That's the entire intent behind the issue of prayer in school. A student can pray at absolutely anytime they feel the need. Prayer doesn't need special allowances to occur.

That's always been my thoughts too, C.I.

Constitutional Insurgent said...

Z - No, you're trying to re-frame what I'm saying. I see nothing wrong with what you've posted. Nothing wrong at all, if a group of students met in the hall [or wherever] during a break or lunch....and prayed together.

I have a problem with special privileges being granted during school hours, to accommodate a supernatural belief system.

Ed Bonderenka said...

The Constitutional Convention held prayer.
Silly Founding Fathers knew so little about the Constitution, praying in a public funded venue.

Constitutional Insurgent said...

The fundamental protection of the rights of a belief system should be enshrined, and they are. But not to the point where it forces alterations in public institutions unconnected with that belief system.

Scotty said...

Scotty, thanks for reminding me...
there is also this huge list of encouragement to PRAY TOGETHER...:

That doesn't negate what Dave or I said.

Ed Bonderenka said...

Oh, they hadn't passed it yet.
They had to pass it to know what was in it.

Impertinent said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Impertinent said...


"BUT he wants to take money back. Go figure..."

He figured as long as the billions and the F16's and tanks were for the Islamist terrorists that have enslaved Egypt... were going to be used by fit in with his ideas and acceptance of a Caliphate and Islamist militarism takeovers of their once secular governments.

Same for Iran...that's why he didn't get INVOLVED in their short lived uprising.

When are we going to get it that Obummer is all for this islamist revival? And doing everything he can to undo and topple true "democracy" rather than installing Islamist terror and theocracy as a form of "government".

Looks like the Egyptians are wiser and smarter than we are today.

The islamist brotherhood criminals underestimated the will of the Egyptians to reject sharia and the sickness that goes with it.

And now they've underestimated that the Egyptian military would not turn on their own people...who by their own estimates, were over 21 million demanding this bums ouster.

Now I hope it's their heads that are on pikes.

Now I see it all unwinding with the islamists over reaching.

BTW...Walid Shabat is calling Obummer a "sleeper" for the Islamists.

Mustang said...

BTW...Walid Shabat is calling Obummer a "sleeper" for the Islamists.

I told you this five years ago ...

Z said...

CI, give me a break. Have I ever insinuated that I think prayer during school hours works for me? It does NOT.

This is about praying as a team and it was always only about that.
Now you're telling me you have no problem with THAT?

Scotty..please read my post and the comments.
Where's the disagreement with me again?
And, by the way, Dave suggested Scripture focuses on "praying alone" and I don't take away from his scripture but to use that against praying as a team is silly when there are SO many scriptures regarding God's desire that we pray together. You can't single out a favorite verse and negate the rest to make a point.

Sometimes I feel like I'm commenting in Greek or something.

Imp..are you sure Walid said THAT? That's pretty 'out there'...

Check out this email a friend just sent from Indiana:

"When there was a democratic uprising against the imans in Iran (2008 or 2009), Obama said we don't interfere in the internal politics of another nation. When a democratic uprising occurred in Georgia (former USSR), he said the same thing and let them stay under the thunb of Putin. When the "arab spring" (radical Islam) uprisings came about in Libya and Egypt, he was all for interfering, but on the side of radical islam. When our ambassador and 3 others were murdered in Benghazi he said it was America's fault by allowing a video that criticized islam. Is there any doubt whatsoever who's side he is on now? "

Obviously, my friend is NOT HAPPY :-_)

Z said...

Mustang, you have.
Many of us have questioned it but it's so outrageous a thought that I think islamists are counting on Americans saying "Oh, give me a break..that's NUTS, he is NOT!"

I think they're counting on that in a lot of other cases, too.

I mean, really, it does sound INSANE to think our president has islamist leanings! He was raised in a muslim school for a few years and he apparently gets a big kick out of muslim call to prayer, too, remember? But, heck, I have cultural Armenian leanings in many ways (none which have to do with its government's stances, by the way) but I was raised to love America, raised to know her history, raised to appreciate her values, raised to love the Founding Fathers, etc.....if anybody here can tell me what background Obama has in family or mentors or friends who are patriotic, let me know.
He's a weird one, that's for SURE.

Constitutional Insurgent said...

Z - "This is about praying as a team and it was always only about that."

This is about praying during a school sponsored activity, and under the guidance of a school employee.

Z said...

CI; fine. I don't care to go over it again. Let them build a tent off property and pray their heads off.
Good luck to them.

And, by the way, those prayer rugs will be put on school property, too.

Z said...

..........and welcomed and admired as multicultural "how wonderful, how open we are"

Constitutional Insurgent said...

You're still conflating an individuals practice of prayer and that of a collective.

Z said...

I have a very close Jewish friend; My husband and I asked him if Christmas tunes in school and in department stores bothered him; if he resented "The CHRISTMAS party" at work, etc.
His response was "Oh, sure...i hate the thought of rosy cheeked children looking forward to Santa's arrival and I hated my having to sing those adorable songs in school..." Sarcasm, of course. He never felt put upon. Odd, maybe he's an anomaly.

is it ME, or have we become maniacally outraged at things that really shouldn't be quite so outrageous?

And, come to think of it, oddly compliant with things which really should outrage us.

Z said...

Imp...I'm still mind-blown at Walid's statement...unbelievable.

Ed Bonderenka said...

The Constitutional Convention held prayer.Silly Founding Fathers knew so little about the Constitution, praying in a public funded venue.
Oh, they hadn't passed it yet.They had to pass it to know what was in it.

Constitutional Insurgent said...

Ed - Apparently this is an important point for you, as you posted it twice. Congress maintains a Chaplain and open sessions with a prayer to this day. I'm not sure what the point is?

I believe that a Government of citizens who subscribe to all faiths - and none...should be inherently secular in it's affairs.

Many disagree, though I have little doubt that the tune would change if it were not a Judeo-Christian theme.

And I get your reference at the end. 'Obamacare'...and the Patriot Act.

Impertinent said...


"Imp..are you sure Walid said THAT? That's pretty 'out there'..."

Z...why the hell would I say it if I hadn't heard it?

Think about it Z..this Obusturd is condemning the Egyptians peoples desire to be free of islamists?

What the hell is he threatening them for and making demands?

That SOB engineered the fall of Egypt's government last year...supported this goat ass chewing POS MB terrorist who's a puppet for the Iranians for chris sake.

Every GD thing he's done...from his first speech to Al the bowing to the GD Saudi king?

Why are we so damn afraid to call this man what he is?

We're not afraid to say....but,,buuuuuuttttt...he's a Mormon...but he's a Christian...but she's an Evangelical....but...he's a Jew!

Obutthead is a damn Islamist..period...yea...he's born in Hawaii..yea..and he's a "Christian" ( when was the last time he was in the National Cathedral? ) too...and yea....he attended Columbia...but no one remembers him....yea he was raised in Indonesia...yea....but we can't call him what he really is?

Today...I'm an Egyptian...and today...I wish we'd act like them. They make us look like stupid ignorant dumbasses.

Impertinent said...

And I'll bet the busturd has a prayer rug and a foot bath and long silky white robes....IN THE EAST ROOM OF OUR WH...

And a private hot line to his favorite Imam.

Maybe Snowden will release Obuttheads cell phone records? Wouldn't that be cool. Maybe the Ruskies already have them?

Ed Bonderenka said...

Yeah, well I thought it got missed. I kinda liked that Pelosi quote.

Constitutional Insurgent said...

"I kinda liked that Pelosi quote."

It will go down as a keeper in the Congressional Hall of Shame!

Impertinent said...

In just a little over two hundred years this country has deteriorated horribly during that time. So much degeneration in such little time.

The founders made good provisions for the protection against government abuse, but the system itself allows for miscreants within to manipulate things almost any way they want, including swaying public opinion for or against a cause, a person or an issue, mostly by seizing the organs of communications and entertainment.

And an apathetic electorate is a factor in it all as well. And size, too. The country has become so large... elected representatives no longer represent anyone but themselves.

But in spite of it all, much of the deterioration could have been prevented by setting the system up to allow the electorate to vote on issues via referendum.

We will be much better off if we can split apart into like-minded sovereign areas that are smaller, vote via referendum, and are homogeneous.

It's way too late to change things.

Constitutional Insurgent said...

Impertinent - I can't find anything in that to disagree with. We've long strayed from the concept of Federalism that implied power to the States except in enumerated cases.

FreeThinke said...

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

~ Matthew 6: 6: King James Bible "Authorized Version", Cambridge Edition

FreeThinke said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Z said...

Nice one, FT.
I hope you saw my comment with a link above FULL of God's wishes that we pray together, too.

Prayer is good, period...and to think that young American men feel of a mind to is encouraging...but I hate to get too encouraged because I see so much of quite the opposite!
Instead of encouraging goodness, we're discouraging it with laws and rules and such seemingly erudite discussion of right and wrong. I remember when we needn't have asked if something was right or wrong. We knew.

have a great day.