Monday, August 22, 2011

Illegals: An opinion regarding how to solve the problem

Below is a fascinating comment by Bob (see his new BLOG "Gonna Say it") , something he left on THIS post of mine about Illegal Aliens.   I thought it was an interesting comment and wanted to blog it as a post...I hope you weigh in on it with your opinions.  Sometimes, my (conservative) blogger buddies are smarter than I am on a subject and I like to highlight their thoughts...please add yours to them!  Thanks:


The simple solution is usually the best for most problems, the illegal immigrant problem is not a conceptually difficult one to handle.

The Problem: Millions of illegal aliens are taking millions of jobs that should be filled by US citizens. Millions of illegal aliens are burdening the US social structure with additional costs in medical and educational demands.

The Solution: Since the problem is illegal aliens, the obvious solution is to prohibit illegal aliens from the US proper, and to eject those currently in the country. Conceptually, and realistically, we can take care of 80% of the problem with little trouble.

1. Announce that immigration laws will be upheld, and that the US border will be sealed as much as possible. Dedicate the manpower to do the job.

2. Build the wall. It is not a big deal, and a couple of jobs might be created in the process. Defensive walls like Hadrians Wall and the Great Wall in China were effective as long as the builders had the political will.

3. Punish US employers that hire illegal aliens. These are the people that are taking advantage of the illegals, and making money because they pay less than legal wages.

Partial Example: In Georgia tens of thousands of jobs have been taken by illegal aliens. These are good jobs in construction, food processing, and other factory type work that most people would like to have. Recently, something has happened to cause a shift in this area. (Z: many Americans in L.A. who've worked construction have been threatened and contractors are threatened if they don't hire Hispanics here, with guns; I know this for a fact)

Recently, laws have been enacted that allow local law enforcement to take action when finding illegal aliens, and the illegal community has gotten the message.

At the car wash, most of the employees were Hispanic, and could not speak English. They were probably illegal aliens. Ditto at McDonalds, Burger King, and other fast food chains.

Now, when visiting the car wash, or going to a fast food restaurant I see smiling white and black faces. These people are happy to be working, and the illegals are disappearing.  (Z: there is not ONE white or black worker at my local car wash)

It's not hard to get rid of most of the illegals.

It is red herring, myth, or just plain lie that mass deportations will be necessary to rid the country of these people.

These illegals know when the gravy train has stopped, and will feel the pressure to leave. (Z: immigrant numbers are going slowly down since our economy has suffered)

All it takes is the political will to make it happen, but Obama wants Hispanic votes. That is the extent of his will power.  (end of comment)

Z: What do you think?  Thanks, Bob...that paragraph about smiling legal Americans with jobs again was very moving and I keep wondering what this administration doesn't understand about that.   Don't they WANT Americans working?  

geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeZ

73 comments:

Always On Watch said...

3. Punish US employers that hire illegal aliens....

A lot of people don't like this element, but I see no way around including it if immigration control is going to work.

Mr. AOW lost his job in 2008, in part because illegals working there didn't opt for health-insurance coverage whereas almost all the American-citizen employees did. The company, facing hard economic times, naturally opted to let go most employees with health-insurance coverage. Had there been a severe penalty for hiring illegals in the first place, then a lot of American citizens at that company would have been able to keep their jobs -- until the company went completely under, of course.

Mark said...

Don't they WANT Americans working?


No. Working Americans are harder to control.

Bd said...

Obama has deported more illegals than Bush. Why did you delete this? Opps, I forgot, the right and facts just don't play well together, lol!

Elmers Brother said...

so what BD? He's not solving the problem he's making it worse.

Z said...

Bob...how "little" would the problem be to deport more and more?

Lisa said...

we definitely need to seal the border. The left is always crying about infrastructure. That is 3000 miles of it plus there will be plenty of technology jobs along with that for hi tech surveillance and those jobs would not end because it would need to be on going.
So what Bd those people are criminals and should be deported but without sealing the border they will find their way back like they always do.
So now Obama is going to use that as an excuse to cave into the millions who are here already and who knows how many there really are.

Z said...

the oddest thing is people who read that the Right would like to enforce the immigration laws and call us 'racists' because of it (weird enough in itself) but then brag about how their hero's deported more than Bush.
Go figure. ;-)

Elmers Brother said...

Excellent point Z.

Scotty said...

The other solution is term limits. As long as our politicians fear the fact that coming down on the wrong side of immigration reform will possibly cost them votes, they'll never have the backbone to do the right thing!

sue said...

Z - I support President Obama because I voted for him, and in my heart I believe he is a really great guy, if people don't want him in office I think they should stop all the bitching and moaning, get out the vote and put in a Republican.


But before that happens, I would love to say one thing to him:


Mr. President,


TEAR DOWN THAT WALL

~~~

(even diehard Ronald Reagan fans can surely relate to that)

~~~

Dave Miller said...

Z, I do not see BD as bragging, as much as pointing out a fact regarding deportations by the Obama admin. It should be noted that many on the left are not happy with this fact and have called President Obama to tak for it.

While a lot of Bob's ideas seem to make sense, the devil is always in the details.

For instance... Texas recently has tried to enact tough laws against employers for hiring illegal immigrants but has run into opposition from the GOP on this front. If you cannot get GOP support for this, how can the plan possibly work?

Are people willing to count regular folks who hire day laborers are illegal employers when they hire Maria to clean their house, or Juan to help work on the yard? Again, this type of activity, while clearly illegal, was exempted from penalty by the Texas law.

We might also ask if Bob's plan has any solution to the fact that US government policies [corn subsidies] which are responsible for putting thousands of Mexicans out of work in their own country should be changed. This simple act alone would employ many Mexicans in the own country and cut illegal immigration. But doing so would be seen as a tax increase, and we all know how that'll go.

As for the border, I agree we need to seal it, but I am more in favor of using manpower than a wall. The symbolism of a wall cutting America off from a part of the world is more than I want to see.

The immigration problem is not simple. It is complex, multilayered, and not given to easy solutions that seem forever mired in US self interest and politics.

soapster said...

There's an easier solution and one that anyone who is truly a free-market advocate should embrace.

Completely remove the social safety net in this country as well as the minimum wage laws and let the market work.

Pris said...

"TEAR DOWN THAT WALL

~~~

(even diehard Ronald Reagan fans can surely relate to that)"

Sue, you do comprehend that the Berlin wall was built to keep Germans who were unfortunate enough to be held against their will, in a communist sector of Germany, don't you?

Dave Miller said...

Soapster, you know that ain't gonna be happening anytime soon...

Is it your contention that in so doing, prices would fall so as to be more inline with lower wages?

If so, how long a lag time do the Ron Paul folks think we would be looking at for that?

Ticker said...

Comparing Reagan's Tear Down that Wall and your version Sue is like comparing Angel food cake to mud pies.
The Berlin Wall, as I think someone has noted, was made to keep people in not others out. We need a wall to keep illegals out with only one door open to citizenship as it is explained in the Constitution. Is that so hard to understand?
Eisenhower rounded the illegals up and shipped their butts back across the border. Truman did as well and one other earlier President. It's time to have one who has the guts to do the same. The current occupant in the WH only wants illegals in the country to make voters out of them so he can become King. He's a loser and we don't need a loser running, err that should be RUINING this country.
BD the on;u reason the illegal population has decreased under Odumber is because the economy is so bad they can do better in Mexico. Bet the Leftist never will admit that.

soapster said...

Oh I think things are going to happen alot sooner than you think Dave. We're already seeing it (well some of us anyways).

sue said...

Yes, Pris, because I actually saw the Berlin Wall firsthand. I saw the pieces of broken glass on the top, heard the stories about the East Berliners being shot in the water trying to escape to freedom.

I experienced the surreal feeling of walking among people who couldn't visit relatives in West Berlin because of the WAll.

Maybe it's those lasting memories that have left me with an enduring dislike for walls being built around a town - or a country, especially around the country I love.

There's a better way to do this. If we can send a man to the moon, we can surely figure it out - if we would just try.

Bloviating Zeppelin said...

The lie is that there AREN'T enough Americans to take the jobs vacated by illegals.

This is bull#@*^! People will do what they have to do, when they have to do it. The economy is in such a place that, in order to survive, people are re-thinking their priorities. Couple that with dwindling jobs and the coming crash with Free Cheese -- oh boy -- yes, people WILL fill those gaps. LAWFUL Americans.

One additional bonus: people who hadn't worked before will get into the HABIT of working, getting up at a specific time, having a pattern of work.

Double bonus: money saved from NOT spending it on ILLEGALs, and getting people back into the swing and habit of having to punch a time-card, actually appear for work, cleaning and grooming themselves, bettering themselves.

BZ

sue said...

Oh, and did I mention the young Soviet soldiers walking around in groups. These clean cut young men looked like they could be my younger brothers. They didn't look like mean Russians, but more like high school boys from any country hoping to hit on a young girl - probably too young to really comprehend the meaning of where they were. But as old men they would 'get it.'

And the customs officer that yelled at me going in - probably just frustrated because in his heart he knew he was on the wrong team. And the nice customs officer on the way back - who just laughed when my 2 year old daughter tried to open a forbidden door.

Or the miracle of the Telecommunications Tower - where when the sun shone on it a cross could be seen - and most saw this as a miraculous sign - because it only shone on the East Side. The East Berlin soldiers tried to use abrasives to scrub it off - to no avail.


Yes, the Berlin Wall was built to keep people in.

And now there is a wall going up around the land of the free...

That seems so odd to me. Like a slap in the face to Ellis Island.

Bob said...

Thank you, Z, for posting this. I appreciate the opportunity to engage with intelligent and respectful people like your readers. Thanks to all.

With my available time, today, I will probably not be able to answer all comments, but will try in a general way.

Bd makes a good point about the deportations being higher under Obama than G W Bush. Elmers Bro is correct, too, by saying, “so what?” It doesn’t matter what was done in the past, the critical thing is what we will do in the future.

Most people I know were not happy with G W, but he did have some good ideas on immigration that were never considered by the worst Congress in history. For example, G W advocated a guest worker program, which is one of the things desparately needed.

When you hear a Democrat call for comprehensive immigration reform, we all know that phrase is code for amnesty. People are not stupid, nor will they allow this travesty to happen, again. Reagan got away with it because he was, well, Ronald Reagan. Obama is no Ronald Reagan.

Dave is entirely correct when he talks about the devil being in the details. But, that’s why we have problem solvers. No problem is so complex that you cannot break it into parts, and address those parts singly, or find a way around them.

Trying to solve multiple layers at once is usually problematic. You know the old joke, “How do you eat an elephant?”. Same thing, here, but it’s not a joke.

The approach I took was to recognize a couple of components of the problem and to articulate conceptually simple solutions. This is called “taking the low hanging fruit”, and it’s a smart thing to do.

I did not mean to imply that the execution of any plan was a simple thing. Execution is always where you find those devils. There will be gaps in the fence, tunnels, and maybe fly-overs. There may be pseudo-legal problems, but not if we get rid of the current AG.

Reality intrudes in plan execution, and we need realists dealing with these problems, not social ideologues.

Impertinent said...

"f we can send a man to the moon, we can surely figure it out - if we would just try."

Not anymore Sue since the One dismantled NASA. But that gives me an idea...maybe we can employ all those laid off engineers and brains to design a wall and sub contract it out to the ChiComs to build it. They have lot's of experience. And they built it by hand. Imagine what they could do with the constructions tools we have today.

Ticker said...

When certain groups, with the aide of certain political factions attempt to circumvent "Ellis Island" a dang wall is in order. Why? To stop the illegal circumvention of citizenship as set forth in the US Constitution, not in the minds of some liberal whiners who believe these people only want a "better life". Bull, if they wanted a better life they'd get one where they are by the political process. All the majority of the illegals want is a free ride and unfortunately we have a political group who "feel sorry" and will hand them any thing they want. They are creating a new Plantation breed in order to retain the reins of power and turn this country into a socialist utopia. Unfortunately they don't realize that it won't happen. Should it , however, the wall will come in handy in roder to keep the real producers within the borders as another group of slaves ala East Germany and the Wall and any other socialist cess poll that one can name.

Impertinent said...

"Unfortunately they don't realize that it won't happen"

Well said Ticker. But I'd bet that there are a couple million Americans who'd gladly volunteer to assist the Guard, ICE & Border Patrol in patrolling and enforcing the border crossers. So it's certainly not a shortage of manpower where it needs it.

And they'd be happy to bring their own legal arms and ammo since we're broke.

Z said...

sue said...

Z - I support President Obama because I voted for him, and in my heart I believe he is a really great guy, if people don't want him in office I think they should stop all the bitching and moaning, get out the vote and put in a Republican."

We're doing all we can to get him out of office, believe me. But, we can't criticize? REALLY? We're to shut down all our blogs of good discussions about what Obama's doing SO wrong and just smile, hope the mainstream media gives up their bias, and everything will be just fine for Republicans in Nov 2012?

Never EVER going to happen, EVEN when the leftwing trolls come into really FULL FORCE next year just about this time, and start with the typical "I USED to be a Republican, but I can't vote Republicans anymore because........."
It's kind of fun...you know what the left's doing, wonder if they're getting paid for it, and carry on. Talk Radio will get the calls saying the same thing just before the election! It's really predictable and pretty funny.

Z said...

Imp, your point is so well taken.

No, we cannot put a man on the moon anymore. I have to finally admit here that I cried a little when I heard the news people saying "Our last shuttle project has come to a close"
NASA hasn't always managed money well, but now we're handing it ALL to the Russians and Chinese, thanks to OBAMA. And some Americans aren't even AWARE that we're not going to be the space super power anymore.
I guess it's following the whole "AMerica can't be a super power because she's been one long enough and... we're not exceptional, anyway" BS of the Left. How horrid for our country.

Pris said...

"Oh, and did I mention the young Soviet soldiers walking around in groups. These clean cut young men looked like they could be my younger brothers."

Oh, I see, so as long as they look good, what they're doing is ok, is that it? Never mind that the Soviets represented an evil empire, and made their people's lives unbearable.

No wonder you voted for Obama.

sue said...

Pris, Pris, You just don't get it, do you?

You Republicans have your head up your butt all the time.


My point was that these young, innocent Soviet soldiers just looked like anyone's younger brother. They really didn't want to patrol the streets of the walled city, they were just recruited as children.


And you probably think the only solution to the 'illegal immigrant'
problem - or to keep out any other undesirables - is to build a wall around the entire country.

Then fly our flag - a really big one - on the top, which will tell the world:

We are the land of the free and the home of the brave. No outsiders welcome.

Don't forget to say a little prayer, too. That would be helpful in solving our problems.

Sincerely,

Just another big bad Liberal.

:=)

sue said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Impertinent said...

"No outsiders welcome."

No....it should say: NO ILLEGAL OUTSIDERS WELCOME!

Just like 99.99% of the other countries on the planet that enforce and control their borders / immigration. Name me one country , even in the southern hemisphere that DOES not enforce their borders.

Why does the US have to soak up every sob story on the planet....only to see too many of them spit in our faces....burn our flag and then have their hands out for their so called "rights and entitlements"....over the well being of our LEGAL, needy citizens?

How many "outsiders" would you allow to break into your home? Then you'll have to feed, educate, clothe them as well as grant them the stupidity of amnesty?

Adopt a damn dog.....leave the illegals where they should be. Cleaning up their own damn backyards rather than fouling ours. I'm sick of all this libbie whining and hand wringing over criminals.

Z said...

"You Republicans have your head up your butt all the time."

Please stop that kind of talk here...it's silly and insulting and, of course, just dead wrong.

Sadly, I had written a very long response to you...sad for me, not you. Suffice it to say that you're right and we do look upon liberals as 'bad'...trust me...with a million very good reasons.
One of them is the fact that we're not so 'free' anymore and it's we who must be 'brave' now in the face of creeping socialism being practically applauded by leftwing Americans...enough is ENOUGH.
As for that flag flying high, those days are nearly gone....if the Right doesn't fight even harder. Do you think all those attempts at keeping flags off homes and out of cemeteries and other places is done by REPUBLICANS? :-)


And, yes, I totally support Rick Santorum and I know my good friend Pris does, too.

Joe said...

Bd:"Obama has deported more illegals than Bush."

What has that to do with ANYTHING?

Just because Bush did something (or didn't do something), is that a reason for Obama to do or not do it?

I thought you didn't like Bush.

Why do you keep comparing Obama to him, then?

Is that some form of leftist/progressive logic?

What?

All during Bush's presidency, the right was Screaming for him to deport more illegals.

Tell me, Bd, what is wrong with your thinking circuitry?

Joe said...

The idea of a wall is abhorrent.

There are good, legal ways to rid the country of illegals.

And we should.

It is an abomination that illegals should be given preference over those who go through the process to enter the country.

Joe said...

Why do illegals come here in the first place?

To excape the drug wars? Let them spend their energy to eradicate the drug lords.

To get free health care? Cut it off.

To find a job? Haven't you heard? There aren't any jobs.

To experience freedom? Well let them elect their own freedom oriented president.

To escape Mesican law? Lock them up. They'll be crying to go back.

Et Cetera, Et Cetera, Et Cetera.

Pris said...

"No....it should say: NO ILLEGAL OUTSIDERS WELCOME!"

Imp, DITTO!


"And, yes, I totally support Rick Santorum and I know my good friend Pris does, too."

Z, yes, I like him very much. A big DITTO to you too my friend.

Impertinent said...

"There are good, legal ways to rid the country of illegals."

Yes there are...and the feds have refused to enforce the law.

Dave Miller said...

Joe, yes, Mexicans come here for work so that they can feed their families back home and perhaps have a better life.

Just as yours and my ancestors did years ago.

The difference between now and then however is this... back then, the people of the US were not quite so active in supporting policies that made it near impossible for our forefathers to find a decent job in their home countries...

Even as Z decrys the supposed Obama slide to creeping Socialism, it should be noted that our subsidies and intervention into the business of corn, long supported by Presidents and politicians of both parties, have played a major role in forever changing the employment picture in Mexico.

Or, put another way, our long term socialist agricultural policies are one of the main reasons Mexicans migrate north looking for work...

Until we help Mexico solve a problem we helped create, they will keep coming...

sue said...

Z - But you didn't really mind if

one of your commenters called Michelle Obama a 'horseface.'

Is if she could help how she was born - with big bones.

beamish said...

It'd be a lot easier to just ditch the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo and finish annexing the rest of Mexico. There's plenty of resources down there America needs and they're not developing.

They can be in the United States without crossing the Rio Grande...

Z said...

Dave..."The difference between now and then however is this... back then, the people of the US were not quite so active in supporting policies that made it near impossible for our forefathers to find a decent job in their home countries..."

The real difference between now and then, however, is the fact that they came legally. I'm FIRST and SECOND GENERATION and nobody came with their hand out; they all WORKED and worked HARD and succeeded WELL.
We didn't fly the Armenian flag anywhere, we learned English immediately, we'd rather die than take welfare in this land that opened its heart to us. (I was born here, but I'm talking about my father's folks and my mother herself)
THey're all Republicans, as are nearly EVERY friend I have from a Socialist country who had to work hard to GET HERE.

Yes, there are big differences.

Our country is open to all Mexicans, Hondurans, Salvadorans, who come in legally and don't break laws once they're here and want to work...and we WELCOME THEM WITH OPEN ARMS. Bienvenido...

To suggest otherwise is ugly and wrong.

As for the "slide into socialism"....what would YOU call it?


SUE: would you stop with the 'horseface' and Michelle Obama? MY GOD, you're a woman who's big hero is BILL MAHER, who allows 'comedians' to talk about how Bachmann's husband ought to "F*** her hard" and WORSE...while suggesting Mr Bachmann's GAY; there's an interesting juxtaposition, huh?

You get so ruffled when the least criticism of Obama and his wife arises; we're ENTITLED (I know you're spoiled rotten by the leftwing media and they cover WELL for yours and their hero, but please.....after all the Bush Bashing, do you really want to go there?)

Impertinent said...

"You get so ruffled when the least criticism of Obama and his wife arises..."


Of course they do. He's the "chosen one"...he who can walk on water, heal the sick, feed the poor, bridge countries together and in the process....completely losing sight of what America is.

They believe in this fraud...this artificial god they've created via the media and other nefarious means.

When the libs demean G_d and religious people ( except those "devout" muslims ) they need to adopt the religion of socialism.

Joe said...

Dave Miller: I gather that your ancestors came to this country illegally...is that right?

Mine came through Ellis Island and went through the legal process to become American citizens.

They ALL learned English, and did not think it wrong to do so. ('Course some of them were Irish, so they alread spoke a sort of English. Others were Russian and had to learn the language...which they did).

Might check out this web site:
http://library.thinkquest.org/20619/Eihist.html

Z said...

Joe, please see my comment above yours.... thanks for your contribution; I couldn't agree more.


Imp; "completely losing sight of what America is"
Doesn't it seem like that's what's wrong with the Left? And they'll say we're cruel Americans and completely misinterpret (and misinform, in the case of the media) about what Republicans stand for, which is what America IS (or was); a country of self reliant people who'd rather not take welfare if they can help it, a country which put the rich foundation of the Judeo Christian principles first, a country which felt it was exceptional and proved it in helping other countries, a country which prided itself on legal voting, a country whose kids were taught about this country in positive ways, etc etc..
what the heck HAPPENED?
Did Rightwingers turn everything around to the mess we're in(the other side of all the points above and MORE I haven't mentioned)? Absolutely NOT.

sue said...
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sue said...
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Z said...

Sue, I hope that happens.
It is a big job and takes a lot out of any person.

Z said...

Sue, don't worry; you won't be mistaken for a Conservative.

Impertinent said...

"It has to be Rick Santorum - or I'll vote once again for President Obama."


"I think he has 'served' enough time in that big White Prison at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue."



Kind of contradictory isn't it? If it's not Rick...you'd be fine with "imprisoning" Comrade O for 4 more losing, ruinous years? To give him another shot at handing us over to the 3rd world tribalist, reparationists and illegals?

BTW...This guy's wanted that "prison" since he was groomed by his handlers, for that place. He had his shot...if he truly wants "change"...he should step down. Nothing he's down has helped America...NOTHING.

Dave Miller said...

Joe, my ancestors came like many do into this country, without a job, papers, money, or property. Sadly, without all four of those, you are not allowed to immigrate here from Mexico, under any circumstances.

So the enjoinder of many for Mexicans to follow the rules is foolish. There are no rules other than "No, you cannot come!" for the majority of people from Mexico.

Now, did my ancestors learn english? Yes eventually they did. Just like second generation immigrants do now.

A short reading of US history will show that we actually had units in the Civil War that were divided along linguistic lines, because citizens fighting were unable to speak fluent english. This was particularly true for the German units that fought for the north.

It seems as if our history is full of people who came here, and themselves, did not learn english, but made sure their kids did.

The same is true today.

Beamish, most believe we have already abrogated that treaty, as we have with most treaties we have signed over the years, just ask the native Americans with whom we have a checkered, at best, history.

Z, with all respect, on this, you are wrong. If our government policies did not eliminate jobs in Mexico, there would be far fewer Mexican people trying to get here to work, or get welfare.

When your big brother up north wipes out your job, your ability to work, and your livelihood, it seems natural that those displaced workers would look to the cause for redress.

if we had dealt honorably with Mexico in the first place, perhaps we would not have the rancor between our countries we now have.

The question will ultimately be this...

Are we going to work with Mexico to find a mutually beneficial solution, or will we take a doomed unilateral stance and try and impose our will on them again?

Impertinent said...

"Are we going to work with Mexico to find a mutually beneficial solution..."

I have no pity for mexico. A country full of huge natural resources...gas, oil ( which they have no restraints about accessing or taking, unlike the EPA / US ), copper, gold, silver and beautiful coastlines.

What would mexico do if say....all of our citizens who are deprived work because of illegals...were to reverse invade mexico?

I think you know. Short of invading mexico and making it another commonwealth....or "protectorate"....I see no solution to the raping of our resources so that mexico can ignore their despicable immigration policies.

MK said...

Bob is spot on, it's just will power, there is no will in washington to deal with the problem.

Impertinent said...

"if we had dealt honorably with Mexico in the first place, perhaps we would not have the rancor between our countries we now have."


BTW...just what do you mean by this? Honorably? Like the pols in mexico ( corrupt as they are ) don't know we're feeding them another 20 billion a year in transfers? The 2nd largest source of income for them outside of oil?

Just what else should we do? Surrender, honorably? Give La Raza what they seek?

Please....a fence / wall would be an honorable enough of a signal that we don't want their problems foisted upon us or our states.

MK said...

Perhaps when they're the ones getting raped and robbed by some illegal alien, they'll stop and think - hey this isn't all that it's cracked up to be. Maybe those tea party terrorists do have a point.

Impertinent said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
WomanHonorThyself said...

how can anyone justify allowing people to break laws blatantly..good God..its all about getting them ILLEGAL votes Z!

Z said...

Dave, I believe you are wrong.
And, I also believe that all we're asking for is LEGALITY.

Your ancestors might have come empty handed but they came legally.
Did yours hang their flag in America over the American flag?
Did yours take our money, untaxed, and send it to their families in Latin America for safekeeping?
By the way, many Mexicans have been in L.A. for 25 years and more and do not speak English. Is that okay with YOU?

I think your German analogy doesn't work; they were fighting FOR AMERICA, on either side. And, I hate to say it, but if some didn't speak ENglish, Germans learned it QUICKLY, TRUST ME>

We have wonderful families all around L.A. from Hispanic countries and most of them are illegal and most of them are good parents and clean living...So, let them go out and come back in. legally.
They have as much respect for AMerica now (or they'd learn the language) as Muslim terrorists do....and LA RAZA is an never ending threat. I'd hate to tell you the threats I've had from Mexicans telling me there's going to be trouble.


Dave, The LEGAL Mexicans I know, and Cubans, are staunch Republicans; they resent the illegals more than most Americans do.

Z said...

MK "Maybe?"
I wonder how many Hispanics are in the Tea Party; I'd wager MANY.

Woman Honor Thyself: it's all for votes. you are so right. Obama's polling with Hispanics was sinking and BAMMO!..."I'm on YOUR SIDE"

Time for him to be on AMerica's side and STOP CIRCUMVENTING CONGRESS

Impertinent said...

"Perhaps when they're the ones getting raped and robbed by some illegal alien, they'll stop and think..."

That's not anything I'd wish upon anyone...not even a whiny liberal fraud.

The thing is...they don't see it...or they don't feel it'll ever affect them or their loved ones. They think that they're superior and exempt from what they have wrought...and that a bama / biden sticker on their bumper will get them out of a flash mob jam in baltimore or atlanta.

They don't understand that these two places only graduate about 30% of their "youths"...so the rest can't even read the bumper sticker. Let alone care if you think they're "misunderstood". They'll take your money, burn your car ( bumper sticker and all ) empty your wallet and 5 minutes later be using your credit cards at the Footlocker or PopEyes.

Pitiful and pathetic. As I said before...only when the "deprived youths, teens" and mobs start climbing over the walls in their guarded gated enclaves.....will they demand that the border be closed ....illegals be deported and prosecuted.....

In the real world...it's us peons "folks" and little people that really suffer from the active ignorance and complicity of the leftists.

Impertinent said...

"I'd hate to tell you the threats I've had from Mexicans telling me there's going to be trouble."


Nice...and we're all supposed to sit back and watch these scum bags burn our country down? I cannot....begin to say what's on my mind right now...except for the fact that these assholes have no idea what they're getting into.

I will say that I'm 110% positive that we will NOT sit by while the country is raped and looted.

Impertinent said...

Let's take a poll.....

How many resident libs will drive into downtown Atlanta, Baltimore, Miami, LA, Newark, Detroit, Madison, Richmond, Camden, Philly, Harlem, the Bronx, Jamacia - Queens...at night. Park their cars and take a stroll along the "shops" and take in the night life?

How many of you brave libs would care to engage in commerce with the residents?

How many of you would show your shiny white faces in the local hangouts ( Like in Animal House ) and think you're safe. welcome...and exempt from being beaten to death?

Do the libs have a certain hand signal....fist bump? Or is it that just plain stupid look on your silly faces that identify you as a premier sucker...looking for their love?

Most of them think the libs are on the "down low" anyway.

Pris said...

Dave, you know what? When you can put America first, then maybe we can talk, but you think we owe others more than we owe ourselves.

Who do you think made America great? Our people that's who, and instead of recognizing that, you think we owe the world.

Well, I have news for you, the way things are going, because of people like you, we can kiss all that goodbye.

This President, if he can pull it off, will destroy our "shining city on the hill", and the Dave's of this country will help him do it.

You have to love your country enough to put her first. If you don't, America won't be in a position to help anyone.

So, you go ahead and worry about Mexico, or somewhere else, while we slide down into oblivion.

Personally, I'm sick of you soft, guilt ridden liberals who blame your country for eveything, and take it for granted you'll always live the good life.

Take a look around Dave, we have millions of Americans here out of work. Think about them for a moment.

Our children will not have it as good as we did. Does that give you pause?

We owe no one else anything. When times get tough, the tough get going. We don't carry around a load of guilt either.

We can't save the world, and never could. I just want to save my country from dreamers like you.

Joe said...

Dave Miller: "Z, with all respect, on this, you are wrong. If our government policies did not eliminate jobs in Mexico, there would be far fewer Mexican people trying to get here to work, or get welfare."

That is the leftist Party line, isn't it.

It happens not to be true.

Mexico is a sovereign country and enacts its own laws, rules, regulations and mores.

Try immigrating there without "proper" papers and see what happens to you.

If Mexicans want to come here to work, I say let them come...but come legally.

You seemingly support illegality.

Are there lines you WOULD draw?

sue said...

Z - There are so many good comments on a post like this, but one thing bothers me.

And that is this 'choosing up sides.'

If you belong to a certain organization, of course you are going to support it - no matter what.

But this is our country and we should not be choosing up sides.
We should all be on the same side, working for the same casuses.

Of course there will be differences of opinion and that is what makes America great.

But we have come to a 'civil war' type situation where these differences of opinion are tearing us apart.

Even 'comprimise' has become a dirty word.

I believe that before we can recover from this bad place we are in, people must come to their senses and see what is happening - to all of us.

Didn't someone once say:

United we stand, divided we fall.

Lisa said...

Oh Pris that is exactly what needed to be said. You nailed it!

Z said...

You know, Sue...some of us just MUST do what we can to get this country back to being a capitalist, free market society whether the leftwingers like it or not. We must.
And that can't be compromised with appeals to be united, sadly.
it's said that every time Bush tried to reach across the aisle, his hand came back with fewer fingers. Part of the trouble in our economy today is his having acquiesced to the left with TARP, etc. Look what that got us.

No, we have to stand strong...
Republicans must have the same respect, even if the media constantly infers differently......and misinforms, mischaracterizes, etc.

You come here to this blog and frequently suggest we're too biased and too divisive as if unity is better than doing the right thing in our country.
We only have 1 1/2 years to try HARD to get things turned around; to wake people up to the horrible divisiveness and damage of this president and his compatriots.

Z said...

Lisa...sadly, Pris is SO RIGHT.
Isn't it rotten that we Conservatives even have to say those things? ALL Americans felt the way Pris and you and I did at one time.

America put America FIRST in the past; even while GREATLY helping other countries. That was a gift from our Creator, that amazing way we had.
I pray it returns when WE HAVE ENOUGH and can give again.

I just heard a talk on how Chapter Mark in the Bible talks about how God told the very rich young man to give everything he owed away. What the problem there was not that he had plenty and must give it all away and become poor...it was that the scripture clearly says "HE WAS HOLDING ONTO HIS RICHES" he put his riches FIRST.

THIS is the scripture and reality that we must remind people of; we must not be greedy and put our riches above the needy........but we are to be blessed and have what we need.
America did this for years...
This scripture's used by some liberals to show we should give, give, give...but to give to where WE are in soup lines is counter productive. We must keep what we need and even have luxuries.....but we must not HOLD ON to our riches in our hears; holding on as if we can't live without them.

Bob said...

sue said: "We should all be on the same side, working for the same casuses."

Lady, that sounds so idealistic, and yet it is so not the way the world works. Things are not as you think, nor as you wish them to be. The world is what it is.

Never in history has the world ever come together for that mythical round of Kumbaya. If it ever happens, it will be under the circumstance that both parties are out for their maximum gain.

Your world view, and those of your ilk, is based on the idea that every malady in the world can be fixed by you or your fellow travelers. You should consider that most of the time your solutions involve taking someone else's resources.

Throughout history this is called theft.

Most people don't vote on Congressional Representatives to go to Washington and get along with the opposition. We send them there to keep us from getting fleeced more that at the present.

Democrats seem to enjoy the battle cry of "fighting" for somebody's rights, welfare, illness, benefits, or organization. All this fighting involves extracting more money from my meager income and savings.

I don't believe that you can name any ethnic group or cultural entity that in the last twenty years is measurably better off because of a Federal program.

So, before you entreat people to just get along, remember that you are talking about using my grocery money to pay for your particular stanza of Kumbaya.

Dave Miller said...

Sorry Joe, again you are wrong. Mexico, a sovereign country, enacted tariffs to protect jobs, some 2.5 million, in the large sugar cane industry in their country.

The United States then took them to the World Court to argue that the tariffs were a violation of free trade laws.

The reason behind this? Our desire to sell cheap high fructose US government subsidized corn syrup in Mexico.

Once the US won the decision, over ruling the laws of a sovereign country, almost immediately, the sugar industry in Mexico was doomed.

Now, where do you think those folks might be looking for jobs?

BTW Joe, I too am all for legal immigration from Mexico, as are most people I know in Mexico. And here is what they ask. Tell them the rules and then go by them.

If there are 10 prerequisites for a visa to visit or enter the US, many are just asking to know what those rules are.

Whatever they are, our government has steadfastly refused to put them in writing and be held to those rules. This reality has contributed to the problem.

Pris, give me a break. I don't need anyone to tell me how bad it is. I live in Las Vegas, the state with the hghest unemployment in the nation.

I do love the US, stand up for her, and defend here. Unless we are wrong.

However, I will not defend actions taken that I believe are wrong headed or lead to stupid decisions, sometimes even war.

My brother was on the USS Turner Joy during the Vietnam War. Perhaps you know that ship, if not Google it.

If you were to travel Vietnam, what would you say to a person who lost his entire family in that war when they asked you why our government lied about what happened regarding the Turner Joy?

Would you love America any less because you acknowledged the truth? Would doing so make you any less an American?

Of course not, and you'll never hear that charge from me.

Look America does tons of good all around the world. Most, if not everyone I encounter in Mexico will acknowledge that. I've heard some of the most patriotic sermons in my life from Pastors in Mexico.

But along with that, I also hear, and see the other side, at least in Mexico, of some of our policies, ad it isn't always good.

sue said...

Bob - You didn't read the rest of my comment where I said that of course there will be different opinions and that is what makes America great.

The bottom line here is that we have reached a point where the divisiveness is no longer healhty -like a debate team can be - we are at war with the backbiting, insulting - Yes: Moooooochelle, horseface - these unnecessary digs that are happening on both sides.

These are not helpful remarks, but selfindulgent insults that remind me of rivalries that exist between fraternity boys and their loyalty to their alma mater - mostly concerning S-P-O-R-T-S that seem to linger on into old age and get so tiresome.

But now it's about our country, and our country is in a bad place.
And these endless, going-nowhere discussions are doing more harm than good.

When is someone going to put their money where their mouth is and DO SOMETHING.

Z said...

Dave..

"Now, where do you think those folks might be looking for jobs?"

What about the other 10 MILLION?

"If there are 10 prerequisites for a visa to visit or enter the US, many are just asking to know what those rules are."

That, I totally agree with. Our ancestors had one law: do this, this, and this, and that's good. No confusion, really. Except when they were given names that weren't theirs because the AMericans at Ellis ISland couldn't pronounce their real names.


SUE, you said "Republicans have their heads up their butts"
Would you call that an end to divisiveness?

Dave Miller said...

Z, and the lack of rules and consistency is one of the things that most angers the Mexican people.

That and the fact that it costs over $150.00 US for an appointment to have your documents reviewed, whether you are approved or not.

Most people who are denied any type of entry, tourist or immigration, are never told why, or what they can do to change the situation.

They come in with all the supposed paperwork, and sometimes get less than a 1 minute "interview" before a decision is rendered.

The simple act of having an objective, known, and followed set of standards would do wonders for our reputation in Mexico as it relates to immigration.

Z said...

Dave, I think our reputation's probably bad there; I wonder if Mexicans realize how bad their reputation is with all the murders on the borders, horrible advantage-taking by the illegals here, the fact that some fly their flags over ours in the States...? Do they know that?

As for the rest, I think that, if what you say is true, we need to fix things; I don't have a problem with the cost because I shudder to think what Obama's new "case by case" edict is going to cost us! WE are carrying the brunt of the burden to get people HERE who are taking jobs and money from us and sending money back to MX?

Really, Dave...as much as you say you love AMerica, and I'd never disagree with you on how you feel, I think it's time we put ourselves first. It's come to the point of the ridiculous, don't you think?

Obviously, our blogs are a tough place to discuss subjects this touchy and laden with emotion; perhaps we'd agree more if we were all eye-to-eye: we tend to (or I do) use slightly more sweeping language and more condemnation than we might (I do), to make quick points......
I know so MANY Mexicans here who are very fine people. I don't hate Mexicans! I do detest La Raza and I do fear the times I have heard of cars being stopped by the police for no registration tags or speeding, etc., and they find cars FULL of guns and ammunition, driven by Mexicans...how many are NOT being stopped for driving infractions? That's a concern and not one Americans should ignore.

What DO you think of the fact that so many legal Mexicans are Republicans? Cubans, too...predominantly Conservative.

Bob said...

sue: Sorry if I was a bit intemperate with you. The message is still the same. Expecting civil discourse in a political process is not realistic. Our government structure is composed of adversarially based institutions. Congress was designed to be such a system. So are the courts. Civility is the rule in these institutions, but rules don't apply to the public and the usually divisive new media.

Read about Andrew Jackson's terms and Abraham Lincoln's terms. Pick another President, and you will find the same thing. Divisiveness was the norm.

The issues in front of the nation, today, are more than just a recession or an incompetent President. They are life and death issues that go to our very existence as a nation.

Only in the run up to Civil War have we seen internal issues of commensurate importance as we see, now.

Our nation's existence was threatened then by secession, and our existence is now threatened by those who would destroy the capitalist economic engine that made our country, and has allowed us to feed and defend a large portion of the world's population.

There will be divisiveness in our system because it was designed that way. We cannot civilly accept the shredding of the Constitution, or the current squandering of our precious resources.

Dave Miller said...

Z, certainly Cubans lean to the GOP. I think that is a result of longtime GOP opposition to normalizing relations with Cuba.

I am not sure on the Majority of legal Mexicans leaning GOP. All number I have seen say that the latino voting block is pretty Democratic.

I might add that in So Cal at least, there is a battle going on between the sides of "mexican" heart. There are the more Mexico leaning folks, those that love the country and culture, but generally are more conservative, and the La Raza crowd. These folks come from the CHicano movement, speak more English, are more gang related, and are not Mexico centric.

It is an interesting cultural divide.

I think you are right about blogging as opposed to face to face. Like texting, or even a telephone, it is hard to really get a feel for where someone is at without seeing their eyes and hearing their voice.