Thursday, August 11, 2011

Could Obama help stop VIOLENCE?

Mr Obama, a half-Black, half-White American, is a big hero of Black (and a lot of White) young people.
Right now, a lot of mostly (all?) Black young people are creating and joining FLASH MOBS which are entering stores and looting, counting on the fact that the store owners aren't armed and the cops are too busy to come right away.

By the way, Wikipedia, ever the honest purveyor of information (smile), says Flash Mobs are 'entertaining', imagine?  Here's their take:
A flash mob (or flashmob)[1] is a group of people who assemble suddenly in a public place, perform an unusual and sometimes seemingly pointless act for a brief time, then disperse, often for the purposes of entertainment and/or satire.  (Z: maybe Wikipedia will update their entry to reflect what 'flash mobs' seem to have become)

So, we have Flash Mobs and, meanwhile, there's the fact that about 500 Black kids attacked Whites at a Wisconsin Fair.....

Here's my take:  WHERE IS MR OBAMA?   Have you heard anything about what he thinks of Black kids forming flash mobs and hurting people, or Black adults beating on Whites at Myrtle Beach, or the 500 Black kids attacking Whites in Wisconsin?  And imagine if this were White kids beating on Blacks?  IMAGINE the media?  !!   (And, imagine how many Black Americans are as horrified as we are to read this stuff?   MANY.)

I'm wondering if Obama could POSITIVELY use his Blackness and his popularity among people like this to come on television and say the following:

No, I won't tell you...You supply his script!   What might he say?  Do you think it would help?
I couldn't resist posting this image I found! :-)   That might stop looters?



beakerkin said...

Of course the Duck who targets Jewish blogs with anti semitic abuse
on posts that have nothing to do with Israel will object to this post.When Obama was elected we got a whole bunch of nonsense about him being a symbol hope, change and brining us together.

We are more divided and his changes have led to more despair.

Obama has zero credibility in the streets.

Z said...

Why, reporting facts racist?
Kids of all colors go on rampages from time to time; I'm just wondering why Obama doesn't use his 'magic' with young people to see if he can turn them around? use his celebrity, the power he convinced them he has, etc., to persuade them to stop really awful behavior.

My point is that, during the campaign, he reached out to minorities....they think he has something in common with them and they might relate and react to that......

Obama may have zero credibility on WALL St., (though most of the rich traders backed him, as we come to find), but young kids who're on the streets don't know the damage he's done to our country...or care, apparently.

Brooke said...

Perhaps it is best that Obama says nothing... Just look at the market after he speaks. ;)

Seriously, you are absolutely correct. IMAGINE if these occurrences were white 'flash mobs' beating on ANY other ethnicity.

The you-know-what would NEVER stop hitting the fan, yet our criminally negligent MSM will not make a peep on this.

Bob said...

A flash mob is just that, a mob. You cannot keep people from assembling in public places, but the assembly's rights are subject to the rights of the public.

You can't stop Twitter, and you cannot take the cell phones away from people. What you can do is map out a strategy to take care of the problem, and have a few paddy wagons waiting for the flash-shoplifters.

It is not beyond the resources of cities to assign police officers to walk the malls. There aren't that many malls, and chasing grandma with traffic tickets should take a back seat to squashing flash mob crimes.

Anonymous said...

"Have you heard anything about what he thinks of Black kids forming flash mobs and hurting people.."

Yup, I have. The ( Black ) Mayor of Philadelphia has had lot's to say about these BLACK thugs, their language, culture, vocabulary and criminality.

Silverfiddle said...

Flash mobs started out as an innocuous phenomenon. College kids would form them to do funny street gatherings, etc.

I think Obama has proven himself pretty much inept and capable of wrecking everything he touches. Given his track record, if he came out against this it would probably make it worse.

Silverfiddle said...

Here's what would stop this from happening in places of business:

The business owner shotguns the thieving bastards, and the city, instead of prosecuting him, awards him a medal.

Speedy G said...

The flashmob that started it all...

Speedy G said...

Flashmobs are a very effective protest tactic. They were used to great effect against the regime of Hugo Chavez by the Student Movement and prevented the dictator from completly rewriting the Venezuelan Constitution (for the 2nd time).

Speedy G said...

...of course, they were also used effectively by Tupamaro thugs on motorcycles to harass legitimate protestors and coordinate organized robberies.

Speedy G said...

There will be no end to this. This is a trend that is going to GROW.

An armed citizenry is the best prescription.

Anonymous said...

I guess no one understands Obama domestic policy, which is that there is no crime when the perpetrators are black, and the victims are white. Some blacks are the descendants of slaves, you know.

In any case, since there's been no crime, then what are you complaining about? I swear, you guys must be members of the Tea Party.

Speedy G said...

Does anyone REALLY think that our boy President, raised w/o a father, knows how to deal with mobs of children who were also raised w/o fathers?

I suppose it's time to bring back the Spartan agoge...

If we did, we'd be ruling the world by 2050...

Speedy G said...

....oh wait, we already have.

<a href='">Nevermind</a>...

Speedy G said...


(bad link above)

Z said...

Imp: I was asking if Obama should speak up, but I do appreciate your adding that link from which I copied this text:

"Speaking at Mount Carmel Baptist Church, Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter discusses recent teen violence in the city.

"This nonsense must stop," he said, calling on parents to "get your act together" and telling trouble-making young people to "stop acting like idiots and fools."

He closes with a message to African American young people:

"If you want all of us -- black, white or any other color -- if you want us to respect you, if you want us to look at you in a different way, if you want us not to be afraid to walk down the same side of the street with you, if you want folks not to jump out of an elevator when you get on, if you want folks to stop following you around in stores when you're out shopping, if you want someone to offer you a job or an internship somewhere, if you don't want folks to be looking in or trying to go in a different direction when they see two or 20 of you coming down the street, then stop acting like idiots and fools out in the streets of the city of Philadelphia. Just cut it out."

He makes several excellent points, thanks, Imp. I'd heard he'd spoken out in impressive ways but hadn't actually heard it yet.

Z said...

Ducky, when you can not call people "pig", then maybe you can post here again. Don't be too flattered by Beak's mentioning you here first (are you kidding?); only you would be flattered with being labeled an anti semite, by the way.

Beak, don't be a stranger; it's nice to have you commenting here......I'll try to come by more often; I miss your blog.

Silverfiddle and BROOKE......good point about his making things worse, but take a listen to Mayor Nutter's words; they're excellent and it sure would be effective coming from Obama. I just don't think he wants to tell these kids that.......they're his "team", his "Community organizing" will need them next year so maybe he doesn't want to tick them off too much?

And yes, a Flash Mob started out as something innocuous, but Wikipedia's usually fairly good at someone updating and it appears to me that might want to happen!!

Z said...

Mustang...WHAT were we THINKING? :-)

Speedy G, there is NO WAY IN HELL this stuff isn't going to mushroom here, way.
The Leftwingers have made it that it'll be called racism, or if any one store owner kills someone even in self defense, it'll be "SEE what happens when a bunch of kids just sow their oats..?"

"Why are you picking on minority kids?" will occur even if the videos show NO white kid in any of the mobs. It'll be the same PC oppression of OUR SAFETY with which they weaken us against Isalmists...wait for it.

wait for it.

Anonymous said...

"He makes several excellent points, thanks, Imp."

He does indeed. But missing from the discussion are the usual pimps...jerkson and sharpton.

And then...silly ducky exclaims that the blacks / minorities are ( Oh...I see he's gone bye bye! ) vastly unemployed!! LOL

Jeez...I wonder why. When they look and talk like they do.....even Mickey D's doesn't want them in the kitchen!

Z said...

Imp...ya, 'gone'.

BY the way, I"ll never ever forget the fact that Obama's team didn't ever show Sharpton or Jackson or Rangel around him. VERY rarely (if at all?) did you see any of them at any Obama thing and getting any of the spotlight.....that was kind of remarkable, but nobody in the media remarked on it...(typical)

Elmers Brother said...

I like duhkkkys logic-being poor is an excuse to rob and assault.


Of course if you're amoral like the left its no surprise

Louis H. said...

I think what we are seeing in England and here in US is the result not assigning consequences to unacceptable behavior. I also think that this is the foundation of entitlement mentality: people think they can get away with crime if they work inside a mob. We can thank schools and justice officials for fostering these attitudes. And deadbeat parents, too. I saw that a former congressman went to Iran lately and condemned America, and there is no consequences for that either. See what I mean?

Z said...

Louis, I could build a whole blog on your comment, and have, frankly! You're so right.

It is (past) Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney who is in Libya and Iran now criticizing mostly the Right in our enemies.
Appeasing our enemies.

And she won't tell who's financed her whole trip.

And she should be brought up on charges of treason.

Please watch the videos I just posted .... this is what America's become. There IS no thought but LEFTIST THOUGHT in the minds of the Left..and I truly do believe that most Americans, Centrists, are hearing enough of that and balking. We can only hope.

thanks for coming by.

Good luck in England...I love that country and it gives me no pleasure to see what those thugs are doing.


Anonymous said...

Just In from the UK:

"Petition on Government website calling for looters to be evicted from council houses receives 100,000 signatures in 48 hours Website crashed after massive demand.

Those convicted will lose their benefit entitlement Manchester council vows to boot out looters.."

Leticia said...

It's not really about race, it's about right and wrong. And something needs to be done.

My solution, discipline. Parents need to start taking responsibility for their kids. And spank their butts when the need arises.

This generation of kids lack respect, morals and have no idea what is to behave properly.

You never would have seen this years ago. But since the libs have taken over, they tie the parents hands.

Z said...

Imp: GOOD on Britain. it's about damned TIME.

Leticia, I couldn't agree with you more about how these kids were raised...imagine just strolling into a store and STEALING? But, sadly, this is a race thing...Black kids have MADE it a race thing, NOT US. And, of course, MILLIONS of Black families don't approve of that rank behavior any more than any other American does!

I heard one of the cities which had looting is actually considering getting the parents and holding them responsible. I'm 100% for that.

Ticker said...

What would Obummer say to the gang bangin Flash Mob's" Here's my take. Some may be offended but I'm offended that you're offended. LOL He would use his best CO's tone as in Chicago ghettos.

Yo, listen up you little mo-fo's. You done been messin up too long, uh uh, you know given us Black folk a bad name,u h uh uh, Why don you act yo age insted of yo race, dumazz's.
Yo foo's gonna keep on given black folk a bad name and yo gonna mess up my re-lection plans. uh uh uh, Who gonna buy yo crib's, yo who gonna pay to keep hoochie momma up with all dem lil suckers you dun went and whelped. uh uh You need to be like me an tell dem white folk that we all need to get along (well at least until I been re-lectd again) Michael gonn get real pizzed at you bangers if you mess up her playhouse. Man she love them vacation every other week and eatin out. If you foo's keep on I won't be viting yiou to my "ghetto BBQ" .

Now chill Bro's and remember, it's election time ! Yo Hope and Change is just around the corner.

Anonymous said...

"Imp: GOOD on Britain. it's about damned TIME."

Yep...I agree. But guess who they're after too? The so any loon lib would say...VIGILANTES!!!!

In other words.....those who intend to protect their property, homes and families! This is part and parcel of liberal madness and a crime.

Already...the shits are assuming that this has "racist" overtones"!!

Now...I wonder if back in 1992...why Korean store owners, with shotguns, pistols and dogs at their side where never accused of being "racists"?

So...those who realize that the silly Keystone cops that the Brits have..are eunuchs...PC prevented from dealing with the "ravages of savages"... are now prevented from doing what comes normal to us?

Maybe...maybe if they go after the "real rich" like Price Charles and the Queen... they might respond with real force?

Look at the silly Brits ...imagine a thug destroying property....looting....robbing....physically assaulting cops and citizens....not responding cause...the crime is being committed by a "13 year old"?

It's a crime...period. But....NO "collateral damage"?

That's what the 2nd amendment ( if they had one ) would prevent.

If the savages realized that their criminal actions would be met with a justified 9mm or a would end.

Anonymous said...


You should invent a pocket translator...lite on vowels and consonants ( Ebonics ) for the masses of illiterate asses.

No wonder.....they're unemployed. English as a third language...even at a McD's...ain't gonna cut it.

net observer said...

Z, let me ask you and others on this board a broader question: If I am a self-respecting, law-abiding Black American, and I am generally surrounded by other self-respecting, law-abiding Black Americans, what exactly am I supposed to say or do about the actions of a bunch of uncivilized black thugs who have no relationship to me?

Of course I can display my disgust at them, and publicly if I so choose. But then what? We all know my words are hardly likely to turn around any of those thugs. So what's the point, really?

It seems like some white people, particularly conservatives, think I should "do more" or "say more" about this stuff simply because I'm black. But if I treat others the same way, what's the problem?

Of course there are some blacks who don't demonstrate the same kind of objectivity (although, for the record, I wouldn't agree with you that Obama is one of those). But there's not much I can do about them either.

Z, I must harken back to our FPM days: I am sure you and Pris recall how I could NEVER accept or condone what I thought was a very insufficient condemnation of the overtly white racist screed that occasionally appeared on those boards. As I recall quite vividly, condemnations were FAR from "even-handed". i.e., Black bigots were always constantly shot down -- and rightly so. But white bigots? Not nearly as much.

But in the end, it's not like I can "require" people to denounce the words of others according to my tastes.

Bottom line, at some point, we are only, ultimately, responsible for ourselves and our own. And since no individual "owns" his/her race, one should not feel the burden of such ownership.

Anonymous said... far as I'm concerned...the Brits can GO TO HELL...Suffer the consequences of a failed society...reap the "rewards" of a totally disarmed society and be "buggered" by the insolent scumbags that they have decided to "love".

"Curbing violence, naturally, was the goal English politicians said they’d attain in return for law-abiding citizens’ handing over this basic human liberty; however, after the U.K. disarmed its population, England attained the highest burglary rate and one of the highest rates for violent crimes of the industrialized nations, according to the International Crime Victims Survey carried out by the Dutch Ministry of Justice in 2000.

As the Guardian put it on Feb. 23, 2001, the study “shows England and Wales as the top of the world league with Australia as the countries where you are most likely to become a victim of crime.”

More recently, on July 3, 2009, England’s newspaper the Daily Mail reported that “Britain’s violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European Union, it has been revealed. Official crime figures show the U.K. also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa.”

Meanwhile, British politicians have reacted to the irrefutable failure of their gun-control schemes by calling for more of the same. They’ve even recently banned starter pistols.

Given that they’ve disarmed the law-abiding public and obviously can’t disarm the criminals, what else can they do in this time of violence? What some in the government would like to do can be chillingly found in a July 2002 English government “white paper” titled “Justice for All.”

This paper argued that the government needs to: allow the use of hearsay evidence in trials; remove the double-jeopardy rule for serious cases, including cases that have already been resolved under the current system; and eliminate the right to trial by jury in many cases."

Hey...survivors of the Blitz and Nazi're a country of queers....sissies and F@@gs.....feel proud now?

Hail Britania.....sure.

Anonymous said...

"Bottom line, at some point, we are only, ultimately, responsible for ourselves and our own. And since no individual "owns" his/her race, one should not feel the burden of such ownership."

Net...welcome. You make a great point. is blacks who have decided to "own" the Black experience. It's is Blacks who have decided what is "black". It is blacks who have decided who their heros are...and who their Uncle Toms's are.

It is Blacks who have rallied in significant numbers to elect and empower...those who are..NON white.

And it is Blacks who have decided in huge stand by a crippled, fraudulent, flawed candidate or an elected "official" solely on the basis of their skin color. Please...don't embarrass yourself by denying this fact.

You may....MAY find examples of this in white culture / politics...but I will bet my mortgage that's it's no where as prevalent as it is in Black totally dismiss any alternative...if it's NOT Black.

I could go on...but suffice to was NOT Blacks that elected was WHITE INDEPENDENTS...and guilty "R's" that gave this man the White House.

By the numbers Net....Blacks are only 12% of the population.....and there's NO way...that the black folks came out in any number that could overturn the "white vote".

So net.....thank us...thank the majority of Americans that could look past skin elect a completely unknown...a completely unqualified half black occupy the White House.

Because without the White vote...the "Lets give the man a chance votes"...there would never be an Obama.

Now...I have to ask...could you vote for an Alan West or a Herman? Could you? I don't think so...cause they don't fit the...well....politics of....dependence?

Z said...

net, some of these comments are beyond what I'd normally allow but I know these people and they're not racists, they're just really angry.

Re what Black Americans do in the wake of the flash mob violence, etc? Nothing .... I appealed to Mr. Obama to speak out. He ran with the appeal of being young and Black and hip: let him do something wonderful with it; let him be the father some of these kids don't have, let him remind them this isn't good behavior.

Why can't he be like Black Philly Mayor Nutter, THAT's what I expect all Black (and WHITE) fathers to tell their kids.

What he has to realize is more Black parents would appreciate someone saying this to their kids, like Mayor Nutter did, and that he might get MORE votes, not less because he had the nerve to chastise really horrible behavior.

Elmers Brother said...

Think this rioter was economically disadvantaged?

Z said...

Elbro, these are sick people who think bringing everybody down is going to help the world. What are they THINKING?...just waiting till everything's rubbish?

The sound bites I've heard from the mobs in London are ridiculous .. "we have to get the rich" "this is all the fault of corporations"

Who the heck do they think is SUPPORTING THEM? Who's paid the most taxes? Who HIRES?

when the heck is the left going to GROW THE HECK UP!?

Elmers Brother said...

Z they are biting the under that feeds them and they don't even know it.

beamish said...

I think it would be insensitive to deny the flash mobsters their right to celebrate their Australopithicine heritage.

net observer said...


Despite our occasional run-ins in the past, I'm glad to know we can still have a civil conversation. I wish my country could be more like that. Looks like those days are mostly gone by the wasteside.

At any rate, I find it laughable that you think that I would only support candidates who stand for "dependence"? Do I sound like a "dependent" guy to you, Imp? Seriously?

Imp, you may or may not remember this, but I was on the fence, leaning toward McCain in 2008. I didn't choose to vote for Obama until Sarah Palin proved to me that she was a dufus -- which took about a week after McCain picked her.

Before Obama, I hadn't voted for a Democrat since the 80s. So, honestly, I don't even know why you're talking to me that way.

In the 90s, I was in fact a proud black conservative GOP-er. I even wrote a column for a national black conservative magazine that unfortunately fizzled out after a year or two. I supported virtually any and all black conservatives and GOP-ers. Quite frankly, I saw us as a very necessary movement.

Interestingly, I knew, personally, at least two people who directly handled Cain's foray into politics, LONG before he attained his current national prominence.

I said all that to say what many ex-GOP-ers have been saying lately: "I didn't leave the GOP; it left me."

And in case you're curious, Imp, my current views about Obama were and are very much like my views about ALL politicians: Neutral.

" is blacks who have decided to "own" the Black experience."

Indeed. And it was clearly one of the most ill-advised moves a people could make. However, as I observe the 21st-Century version of American Conservatism, it appears to me that many of its members have yet to learn that same lesson. i.e., "you can't get mad if people condemn you based on what they see everyday."

Imp, it's not like I don't "get" the frustration some whites feel about black thuggery and such. I just think it's important that we tell the WHOLE truth.

For example, most blacks aren't thugs, just like most white conservatives aren't racist. And, most blacks, believe it or not, aren't sympathetic to thugs, just like, most white conservatives, as far as I know, aren't sympathetic to racists.

But I also think it's a fact that, unfortunately, blacks as a group have more tolerance for street thuggery than most other ethnic groups. It's a very real and serious problem, even though I still don't know what I'm expected to "do about it".

I also think it's a fact that white conservatives, as a group, are in serious denial about its comfort level with white racist and white racialist points of view.

Just like the term "black" conjures up negative thoughts in the minds of many fair-minded people, so does the term "conservative". It often connotes "wild-eyed", "nutty", "cult-like", "parrot", "weird", etc. And you don't have to be liberal, or political, to agree with this.

Whose fault is that? The liberal media? I doubt it.

Still, having said all that, let me be crystal clear, Imp. If a sizeable percentage of white conservatives are, for whatever reason, comfortable with racist and/or racialist points of view, heck, it's your life, have at it.

But if that's the case, "you" and "yours" are hardly in a position to feel offended when others accuse "you" and "yours" of being racist.

Lastly, as far as me "thanking you" or whomever for voting for Obama, I must say that's quite a silly point, Imp. As I have said many times in the past, it was never important for me to see a black president in my lifetime. As long as I knew that it COULD happen, that was always good enough for me.

Always On Watch said...

FYI: "The Taboo on Mentioning Black Mob Violence". Do you immediately recognize all the names in the essay?

We are seeing 1984 Ministry of Truth tactics in all the mainstream media these days. Indeed, the media's goal is to advance the agenda of statism.

Z said...

net: I do remember you were on the fence about McCain.

I also feel the same about Palin now, but I'm beginning to see it's not that she's stupid (all politicians SHOULD be that 'stupid') but that the media's done that to us thru their unconscionable bombardment against her; EVERY politician has a misspeak (remember Biden's about Obama?!) but the whole leftwing media CRUCIFIED Palin for every little thing she said or what her kids did, etc etc.
WHat really stunned me was even the Right's inability to accept her reasons for leaving the Gov. office and all the unmerited flack she got for that....she is STILL having trash gone through, having liberal authors living next door to her watching, having every single thing she and her family does scrutinized as she said back then, but somehow people just wouldn't accept her "How does one continue as governor when I am being forced to spend all my time dealing with being spied on and having to answer request after request for documents"(which others never had to provide and no cases against her had stuck) etc etc. As much as she'd lost me by then, even I knew the suggestion that she was lazy or 'had bigger fish to fry' by then, and just didn't want to be governor anymore (the inference of the Left and some on the Right) was idiotic.

Yes, you and I have been victims of the leftwing media's CONSTANT barrage of negativity toward her; she has at least as good a mind as Obama, had far more experience, has shown a love for this country I've never seen Obama exhibit, and had done fiscal things (and with oil deals good for ALaska) I know you as a quasi-conservative would admire ........yet, you and I bought into the "she's an idiot" stuff that still, to this day even as a non candidate, is what she gets...when they're taking a breath from slamming Michele Bachmann, that is.

Z said...


Net, I think you know better than this: "Still, having said all that, let me be crystal clear, Imp. If a sizeable percentage of white conservatives are, for whatever reason, comfortable with racist and/or racialist points of view, heck, it's your life, have at it."
That's RUBBISH, it's totally offensive, absolutely untrue, and I think you know that.

Go into any black barbershop tomorrow, net, and tell me what my black girlfriend says to me "You haven't seen racism until you're in an all black hair salon of any sex" isn't true. And, anyway, I hate the 'YOU GUYS DO IT TOO' nonsense, don't you?!! :-)

I may have a black nephew next year and I'm delighted about it, by the way. He's got an elderly aunt NOT so excited about accepting my incredibly beautiful, smart and adoring of her nephew white niece....(I kind of like that, by the way!! Auntie's not PC and has some SPUNK! though I hear my niece won her over at the family reunion she attended in Ohio recently! )

You were involved in Conservative magazines, etc., but you view Obama as 'neutral'? REALLY? The STimulus and his health care plan make you feel 'neutral' about him? Buying companies, etc.. How? The czars like (the very handsome but) Communist Van Jones make you feel 'neutral' about Obama? Cass Sunstein doesn't get a conservative's smell test ruffled?? I could go on and on and on........

i know you want NOTHING to do with the faith-based aspects of many Conservative politicians, black or white, and I think that has colored your views toward Conservatives, net, as it did back in the FPM days......the social stuff is not the aspect of Conservatism you were drawn to, may I surmise??

I always love our conversations and miss FPM mostly for your input so this is fun...if you come back :-)
The thing is, your comments here, and almost always at FPM, started out (in every thread) leaning toward the conservative, and by the end of each thread on whatever subject, you ended up fighting the conservative! I always found that fascinating. The commenters there pushed you left each time...? Or?? That always made me feel terrible, I have to admit .

you're a favorite of mine, I don't mind saying so. come back, shane! :-)

Z said...

AOW...ya, right. Now DRUDGE is being labeled RACIST by the left, IF.
I have an acquaintance who worked very closely (ran the blog)for him; there's no racism in that guys weird body, trust me.

Yes, the media's attacks are one thing but the politicians? You saw my videos above! Gore and Kerry "gotta stop that Tea Party!"? Gore "That isn't grass roots..WE know what grass roots is and we need to overcome them!" what the heck?
And Americans aren't balking out of their WITS over such UNAMERICAN ramblings? This is dangerous and they KNOW IT.

They couldn't get the TPers with the memes of two weeks ago that they were RACIST.....(How do you label people who'd vote YESTERDAY for the wonderful Alan West or Herman Cain RACIST?!)...then it moved to TERRORISTS, remember? And then it was THE DEBT CEILING TALKS WENT BACK BECAUSE OF REPUBLICANS and the liberal political pundits like Brokaw and Schieffer even said THE REPUBLICANS SHOULDN'T HAVE HAD THEIR YOUNG REPUBLICAN SENATORS INVOLVED BECAUSE THEY'RE TOO GREEN TO UNDERSTAND THE SITUATION!

how insulting is THAT!??
But, did the media even play that? WE SAW VIDEOS...some leftist here going to tell us it's not true? (sort of like the Planned Parenthood/Breitbart situation wasn't true?> the way, they've all plead guilty and are being sentenced :-)

Leticia said...

Z, parents should be held accountable, and in turn, will start disciplining their kids before they wind up in prison.

Anonymous said...

"The commenters there pushed you left each time...? Or?? That always made me feel terrible, I have to admit"

Yep....float like a butterfly and sting like a bee. He can't resist the ole one two and then put you on the ropes with that ole fallback....racism.

Same old Net...but a likable kinda guy like Joe Biden thinks of Obama.

Yo Net...thanks for the comeback.

net observer said...

Part I

Anytime, Imp.


Sometimes we really do have to agree to disagree. For example, I find it beyond bizarre that anyone, regardless of his/her politics, could think Sarah Palin's intellect was equal to or greater than Barack Obama's. It's like, could you in your wildest dreams imagine Sarah Palin with a Harvard Law degree? I know I can't. And I don't think MOST people could.

But in any case, allow me to elaborate on my use of the term "neutral": Z, I rarely, if ever, feel anything passionate, positively or negatively, about ANY politician -- at least not in this country. I suppose I could easily hate some murderous despot in a Third World country where the masses don't have a choice, but in America, where the masses are free and the politicians are representative, I tend to direct my love or hate toward the MENTALITY that fuels those politicians.

Examples: If our economy is in shambles, I don't blame politicians for the most part; I blame the culture that creates the problems, like wastefulness and spoiled-rotten-ness. Or, if street crime in a given town has spun completely out of control, I don't blame the mayor; I blame a culture that encourages kids to go the way of the thug.

Or if a residential road is filled with litter, I blame (a) those who did the littering and (b) those who leave the litter on the ground.

I find it absolutely hilarious when the conservative-leaning Drudge Report goes out of its way to link virtually any and all negative economic news to Obama, but hardly reports any positive good news obviously because it doesn't fit their political agenda.

I thought conservatives DIDN'T believe in government creating jobs! Yet they're the first to blame government when there are no jobs. What is THAT about!?!

A political agenda, that's what it's about.

Which brings me to my next point: Z, I just can't get with the typical blanket right-wing complaint about the media. It's 2011, not 1983. The right can claim FoxNews, Drudge and basically all of talk radio. These entities may not represent the majority, but so what? The options are there for all to access.

And for the record, I took the exact same stance when black left-wingers complained ad infinitum about how "we" were not portrayed fairly in the press. At some point, in my view, if you don't like the way you're being reported, build your own information sources and stop complaining about what others aren't doing for you.


net observer said...

Part 2

"Go into any black barbershop tomorrow, net, and tell me what my black girlfriend says to me "You haven't seen racism until you're in an all black hair salon of any sex" isn't true."

lol Z, I guarantee you it's no worse than the stuff you read in the comments sections of many conservative blogs. The difference is anonymity. Maybe your friend needs to learn that lesson as well.

Having said that, I am afraid I cannot take back anything I said on that topic, Z. I maintain that today's American conservative movement is too comfortable with the white racialist element -- too much for my personal tastes, anyway.

I'm not saying most conservatives are racists or racialists; I already said without qualification that they weren't. But if you asked me what percentage of white American conservatives agree with some of the more incendiary beliefs of white racialists, I'm honestly not sure what to say.

But I'm pretty sure it's more than 1%. Remember that Mississippi poll that was taken THIS YEAR? i.e., "46% of Mississippi GOP-ers wish interracial marriage was ILLEGAL?"

Ask a sampling of black Mississippi Democrats that exact same question. I'll bet you anything you'll get WAY less that 46%. That says something about the two groups. And in my opinion, we shouldn't be afraid to talk about it.

Lastly, Z, if I may, my distaste for modern conservative politics is/was a simple case of a group transforming into something that no longer reflects my views. And most of that was a shift away from economics to the Christian/social end. The "race" stuff just made it even less comfortable

Z said...

net...where do I start.

Yes, I think Palin's as intelligent as Obama and I think she has things in her he doesn't that better qualify her for president than he was.
Having said that, I'm not a big fan of hers, by the way.

Blaming gov't for no jobs is easy to explain : We need to encourage businesses to stay in this country. We need to stop scaring businesses with a healthcare plan they still don't know the details of and they're not hiring because of it.
OH, yes, I blame government for no jobs...and I blame gov't for creating GOVERNMENT jobs which cannot be sustained$$$

Re the MEDIA>.sorry, I can't even address it because I'm too stunned. My blog has, nearly every day, an astonishing media bias.
Here's one I didn't know until seeing Coulter speak today:
The left complains about the right rallying voters, tea party events, influencing, etc.....
did you know VERY liberal Ed Schultz of radio and msnbc spent about 2 weeks in a parking lot in Wisconsin rallying voters to vote for the liberals? They spent gazillions of dollars there and the Republicans actually won, a kind of miracle.
Yet, no indignation about Ed Schultz being there from the media THIS time because he's a leftist.
There are SO MANY things the media doesn't report on, misinforms, leaves details out, etc., that , honestly, I hate to be rude or sound offensive, but I can't even deal with your suggestion that there's no leftist media bias.
By the way, net....I have never loved paying Bill MOyers' paycheck when he was on PBS but I don't complain; How would you like it if Hannity was on PBS and your tax dollars supported him?

Yes, I am very well aware how you feel about Christians and I can't go there, either.
Remind me how much better things have become with our kids and society in general since the atheists and some others on the left have tried so hard to insult and malign 'Merry Christmas' (someone will get offended :-) no praying with JESUS in the prayer at a military funeral because somebody will be offended (never mind it's a CHristian burial)....My GOD, I could go on for hours on this one.

As for racism.......I"m not going to fight with you. It turns my stomach to read what you write. I don't KNOW an f'ing racist, net.
And, according to my black friend, no conservative talks like they have in beauty salons she's been in.........

YOu should have seen the gorgeous and HUGELY funny black woman who introduced Ann Coulter today at the luncheon....MY GOD, it did my soul good to see an amazing AMERICAN WOMAN speaking her OWN MIND.
I loved her.

I won't talk race with're black, I can NEVER KNow your experiences and what makes you feel there's some kind of tacit racism approval among White Conservatives.
Odd, it's WE who encourage and applaud's the left and black pimps like SHarpton and Rangel who constantly harangue about racism...and insist Blacks need more than WHites do to subsist. "The soft bigotry of low expectations" TURNS MY STOMACH.
By the way, the Tea Party event I attended was 1/4 full of Black Americans...some racists, huh?

there you have it...thankfully, I'm too pooped to write more on this subject but, mostly, it's sadness....I have to say you had me going there with previous emails and then stunned me with your latest're entitled to how you feel, so am I, you know I like you SO much and enjoy the emails we've had together in the past, and this hurts. I have to admit it.
xxx me

net observer said...


Well, like I said, Z, sometimes we have to agree to disagree. Although I think that some of our "disagreement" is mostly misunderstanding.

For example:

(a) I NEVER said, or suggested, or thought, that there was "no liberal bias in the media". Repeat, I never said, or suggested, or thought, that there was "no liberal bias in the media".

Z, I openly concede that there IS a liberal bias in most of the news media, even though I think it's LONG ways from what it used be.

But more importantly, I don't understand the right's ongoing complaints about it when we have options like Fox and talk radio, and we've had them for well over a decade now.

It's kinda like, with all due respect, when will conservatives stop complaining? When everything looks and smells like FoxNews? Never?

To me, it's a little weird.


I think your point about our government doing what it can to keep businesses/jobs in America is legitimate. I just don't know if something like, for instance, lowering tax rates can trump, say, the much-cheaper work forces in other parts of the world. It may or may not -- I don't know.

Frankly, I deal with business people everyday. Some of them are in pretty high places. But I rarely hear them blaming things like tax policy for the state of the economy.

A lot of right-wing politicos seem to think that they are championing the fight for American business, but I don't know if American business sees it that way.


Firstly, another very necessary clarification: I don't hate or even dislike Christians or Christianity, Z. More to the point, I don't CARE what Christians do or don't do on their own time and in their own spaces.

I don't see myself as being in any kind of a fight with Christendom -- or any other religion. I just happen to be an atheist, which, in my mind, is someone who flat-out does not believe in the concept of a Supreme Being. Simple as that. It has nothing to do with my morals. It has nothing to do with how I treat my fellow human beings. It has nothing to do with anything.

And for whatever it's worth, Z, dare I say, most atheists are decent people, just like you and me, and aren't at all interested in radically disrupting the lives of others.

Are there examples of atheists who aren't so cool as described above? Of course. Just like there's scum within any other group of people, including Christians. I honestly don't see what's so problematic or controversial about my position.

"Remind me how much better things have become with our kids and society in general since the atheists and some others on the left have tried so hard to insult and malign Christianity"

Well, there was a lot more "prayer in school" and a substantial amount of "Church-going" back when the KKK ruled the Old South. So, in one sense, it's very easy to remind you of how much better things are since "the left" and "the atheists" showed their muscle.

Yes, there are atheistic political organizations who fight dubious fights, as you pointed out. But as for me, it's kind of similar to what I previously said about black thugs: I have no relationship to them. So what more can I say?

net observer said...



"It turns my stomach to read what you write. I don't KNOW an f'ing racist, net"

This is where I REALLY don't follow you, Z.

And before I start, I must state this: I don't think my blackness gives me more of a right to comment on the issue of race. So, as far as I'm concerned, there's no need for you to conceded any ground to me on this issue. I certainly do not feel entitled to any.

Having said that, I call it as I see it, Z.

First of all, I NEVER said you "knew a racist", and even if you did, so what? That has nothing to do with what I said.

I said today's conservative movement is a little too friendly with the white racialist element. And when I say "too friendly", I mean based on my personal tastes. If you disagree, you disagree. But if you wanna know why I feel that way, no problem.

Well, for one, over a decade of writing in and reading the comments sections of various online right-wing publications. And anybody who knows me knows that I am not at all quick to accuse someone of racial bigotry.

Again, I bring up that poll, which was taken in 2011, where almost half of the Mississippi GOP-ers surveyed thought interracial marriage shold be ILLEGAL. Not frowned upon. Not discouraged. ILLEGAL. 46%.

Maybe one day I'll find out that survey is meaningless. But right now, indeed, it bothers me.

Another item: Z, I don't have to tell you the things "Impertinent" has said consistently over the years. But far more importantly, in the world of online conservative publications, he's just not that rare.

Having said all that, if you note, I have never ever called Imp a racist. That's how fair-minded I am on this subject, Z. Still, however, I have no problem calling him a racialist, and if you look up the term "racialist" (not "racist"), it fits him quite well. And I suspect even he accepts the label.

And your stomach turns when I speak on this subject? What am I saying that is so wrong?

Z, because I am a private person, I can't tell you all the things that inform my opinions. But believe me, I can tell you a story right now, that I experienced a couple weeks ago, that might make your skin curl, and it's much deeper than an anecdote.

Wanna the truth, Z? I am GLAD to see your indignation when you think someone is accusing your movement of racism (even though that's not what I was doing). I am VERY GLAD to see a white conservative show some indignation over the suggestion. Because I don't see enough of that, quite frankly. If I did, I wouldn't say what I am saying.

And if I saw white conservatives take the same attitude with white right-wing bigots as they do with black left-wing bigots, I wouldn't say anything then either. But that is not the case.

Lastly, for the record, Z, I didn't say (or evne think) white conservatives demonstrated "tacit approval" of racism. I said, as group, they seem too comfortable with the white racialist element. Yes, it's just my opinion but it's a very rational one, if you ask me.

One final-final note, Z: I find myself defending white conservatives againt other "moderates" (whatever you wanna call us) who aren't NEARLY as moderate as I am.

My point being, if I think conservatives have a problem in this area, and I'm not even what you could call an enemy of conservatives, then, well, maybe it's time for a little introspection.

Or not =)

Z said...

net, I'll get to your email Monday..oh, it IS Monday... Well, Monday MORNING :-)

But you say "maybe it's time for a little introspection.

Or not =)"

You don't think I have considered all you've said here in many ways before?

Z said...

Hi, net:

a. Yes, while Conservative tax dollars must support Bill Moyers at PBS and many on NPR who are diametrically opposed and even witheringly insulting to our values...would those NPR and PBS viewers/listeners who are perfectly happy about that support Hannity were he on PBS of NPR? i think not.

Yes, we have FOX (which CNN and msnbc and every lib venue are constantly belittling) and it's watched by FAR more than any other venue so they're making sense to a lot of Americans, but my point is 'to call them unthinkingly rightwing' as those leftists do, when Blitzer, Crowley, Schultz, Lemon, and ALL the CNN /MSNBC people are SO unapologetically leftwing in their presentations is absurd.
FOX has both sides represented almost every single segment...they have regular contributors like Bob Beckel and Juan Williams and Joe sees nearly NONE OF THAT on either CNN or MSBNC.
It's silly...but it's in peoples' minds that FOX IS THE BIASED ONE.
Have you seen how the lib media and our gov't are going after Newscorp now? think that's got much to do other than it owns FOX? :-)

b. Frankly, every small business here in L.A. is either closed or not hiring.... of course taxes aren't the single reason for this economy not recovering and so few hiring. I don't think anybody's suggesting they are.
The business owners I hear are scared to death of Obamacare (even our doctors who voted for Obama, our long-haired very liberal-wonder urologist, asked Mr. Z shortly before he died (this is someone he used to argue with about obama) "WHERE are the Republicans? they've got to stop this!")

We need a president who's optimistic at least some of the time......someone who'll stop insulting the GOP and get down to business. I believe his insults are precedent-setting and not at all healthy for Americans to hear.

c. Christianity was the only religion in the South during the K K K, can't blame a faith that would NEVER EVER hold a whole group of people down, oR KILL THEM FROM TREES!!, on Christianity. Sure, one could say "They were Christians" but that's like saying "All NAZIS were CHristians!" ...there were very few hindus and muslims in Germany back then. That's what Germans WERE. And, of course, true Christian Germans fought for the Jews and died in concentration camps right alongside them, something that's not taught in our schools, by the way.
You have no relationship to them, fine; but I will say I still think your atheism is part of what makes you untrusting of Conservatives, tho you seem to fluctuate minute-by-minute about whether you are Conservative or not...and always did, frankly!

Z said...

net Part 2

d. I think your blackness perhaps doesn't give you any more 'right' to comment on race but your viewpoint is obviously different than mine, so I welcome reading what you say, even when it hurts, because I have only ONCE in my life felt real insult because I was Armenian, only once EVER, and Blacks in this country have felt insult a lot more than that.

As you said in your comment, something you witnessed last week obviously informs your can it not?
Please don't share it, it would probably make me ill.

I do know RACIALIST versus RACIST; we've certainly covered that in the past, right? :-)

I HATE some of what I read here at GeeeZ in comments on race...detest them, and have very very often considered deleting them, but I know these people and I know they'd be as happy as I would be if the stats on Black abortions, black unwanted children, gang killings, flash mobs, etc etc etc weren't happening.
NOTHING would make conservatives at GeeeZ happier than if nobody ever had to read articles showing Black American kids harming themselves and others. That's not to say White American kids don't!...but the media focuses in on only the BAD news with Black kids; another thing I find odd for the 'big, open minded leftwing media' that couldn't wait to call Tea Partiers (with all the Blacks involved with them) racist, you know, the folks who'd vote for Allen West tomorrow if they could? at geeeeZ, my leftwing troll can't wait to "out" gays and he's the first to call us racist....

I have never in my life heard of that Mississippi thing about wanting intermarriage illegal!! NEVER. As you know, I've always said that intermarriage seems to be the only thing that will STOP racism in this country; too bad that effect would probably take 50 years even if every kid today was marrying another color......
that Mississippi thing is disgusting and STUPID.

I'll ask again what I asked last night in my comment above........MY introspection?

net observer said...



I don't watch a lot of CNN but is Bill Bennett still there? Amy Holmes? Mary Matalin? Alex Castenellos? There are more right-wingers on CNN than left-wingers on Fox, I think.

And Juan Williams, to me, is not all that liberal. But I guess that's a matter of definition.

I got tickled one day when I read your blog a year or so ago where you referred to ME as "leftist". I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any self-described liberal/progressive who would characterize me as anywhere left of center. But again, it's a matter of interpretation, I guess =)

(Fwiw, I would personally describe Williams as left-of-center, but that's just me)

Also, I don't think MSNBC is trying to hide the fact that they are left-leaning. Their slogan, "Lean Forward", is clearly an answer to Fox's "Fair & Balanced". In both cases, it's clearly a proverbial wink to their fans: MSNBC = "Progressive-Leaning News & Analysis" and Fox = "Conservative Leaning News & Analysis"

And yet and still, even MSNBC has Scarborough on in the morning, for like two hours. But you will NEVER EVER see a punditry-based show on Fox featuring a liberal as the primary host.

"someone who'll stop insulting the GOP and get down to business. I believe his insults are precedent-setting and not at all healthy for Americans to hear"

To be honest, when 40% of the GOP doesn't even believe Obama is a naturalized citizen, and with pundits like Beck saying, based on nothing as far as I'm concerned, that Obama harbors "a hatred for white people", and so forth and so on, I can frankly understand how the president might get a little testy every once in a while.

Also, my only point about Christianity AND atheism is that neither is inherently good or bad.

"atheism is part of what makes you untrusting of Conservatives"

For me, it's not about "trust" or "lack of trust", Z -- whether we are talking about leftists OR rightists. It's merely a case of me not liking what I see and hear, and being honest about it.

net observer said...


"but I know these people and I know they'd be as happy as I would be if the stats on Black abortions, black unwanted children, gang killings, flash mobs, etc etc etc weren't happening."

And I think that's very important to point out, Z. I honestly believe you're right. BUT we cannot end the conversation there. Because when a fair-minded individual like me has chats like I used to have on FPM, where various white conservatives had the nerve to suggest that I was voting for Obama because he was black...well, let's just say I don't feel so obligated to give people the benefit of the doubt when they aren't willing to do the same for me =)

And I must add, those "racist" blacks in those hair salons are, I suspect, probably not all that evil either. But, similarly, they can hardly complain if people outside their circle label them "racists" based on their words and behavior.

It's all the same thing to me, Z. In the end, I'm just looking for consistency, or at least a sincere attempt to be consistent; and I honestly don't see white conservatives, overall, as solidly consistent on racial matters, particularly with blacks. Not enough for me, anyway.

My HONEST assessment? I think a lot of decent white conservatives are like you, Z -- to a point. (a) THEY are not bigots, and they know that most of their fellow conservatives aren't bigots -- commendable. (b) They are in fact embarrassed and disgusted by the bigotry that emanates from their side of the spectrum -- also commendable. But where a lot of these guys seem to split paths with you is (c) Too many decent them don't seem uncomfortable and even troubled about what they honestly feel about these issues. more importantly, how does one express these feelings without facing endless societal repsrisals?

In some cases, it's like they're afraid to draw attention to the bigotry in their midst because they don't wanna pile on to the other side's characterization of them.

Indeed, this a VERY real dilemma -- I'll be the first to admit it. The problem is this: Most decent people want bigotry condemned categorically without qualifications -- even when it's not that simple.

It's why Obama remained in hot water for his patronage of Jeremiah Wright's church. I think his explanation made perfect sense. I think YOUR explanations of these issues make perfect sense. But not every is willing to be understanding like me =)

And lastly, when I said "introspection", I am speaking pluralistically, if you will. That is, if I, someone who can hardly be seen as an arch enemy to conservatives, sees problems in these areas, maybe it's not too much to ask conservatives to engage in a bit more self-reflection.

net observer said...


Might be hard to figure out:

"(c) Too many decent them don't seem uncomfortable and even troubled about what they honestly feel about these issues."

net observer said...

D@mn, I screwed it up again! lol

The REAL correction:

"(c) Too many decent conservatives seem uncomfortable and even troubled about what they honestly feel about these issues."

Z said...


(sorry about the caps...I'm not yelling at you! It CAP'd by itself and I kept typing...and I'm too tired to redo)

Joe Scarborough? SOME conservative :-) He's changed a lot, net....he blasts the Right more than anybody on their charade of a show. It's one big leftist echo chamber at CNN and MSNBC.

THank GOD FOX has so many liberals on to balance it out. I appreciate that. I believe it's also why their ratings are so much higher than CNN's and MSNBC's..

I can't address the race stuff anymore... i'm tired of it.
I even get a whiff here from you of "republicans are more racist than democrats" and I can't address that because I'd get too angry. It's utterly ridiculous and I (and ever Republican I know) have no more association with 'far right nuts' than you do the weird atheists you mentioned in a comment somewhere above. Frankly, I"m offended they're called FAR's like the left calling Conservatives Fascist when the actual meaning of fascist is leftist.

The Right's supposed to engage in more 'self reflection'? WHY?
How do we stand out on race more than any other group, liberals, for example? Baloney.

Maybe people need to do some 'self reflection' when they voted for a man with so little known about his past and with almost no experience, a liar who said he barely knew Bill Ayers, or that he never heard Jeremiah Wright on America, or maybe we could ask a publishing house why they'd give a contract to a guy who'd done nothing in his life but got to write an autobiography at a young age ..??, or appointing people like VAN JONES, whom Valerie Jarrett said they'd been watching for years with interest, then denied that when they had to let him go (the announcement coming late on a Friday night so they don't get the press they if the press would EVER criticize their idol.....)
oh, man, could I go on and on..

self reflection? who?

net observer said...



I said Fox would never have a show with a liberal as the primary host. I know about "The Five". I happen to like that show mostly because of Beckel; otherwise it would be extremely redundant.

But more importantly, Beckel isn't the primary host of that show. "The Five" treats all five of its hosts as equals, which each hosting a segment. To me, that's a long ways from hosting your own show like MSNBC's "Morning Joe".

And "guest-hosting", as Juan Williams occasionally does, is also in my view a far cry from hosting your own show.

I probably don't watch enough FoxNews to know about these other names. I can't stomach Fox's prime-time line-up at all. But maybe Fox shows more diversity than I know about. If so, I stand corrected. But even so, with the exception of Beckel, these names you list strike me as pretty moderate voices. Kirsten, Juan, etc. Left-of-center, sure. But straight-up liberals? I don't know about that.

I am well-aware that Fox leads the other news networks in ratings, but I highly doubt it's because of their "fairness". I think it's because of their loyal following. Case in point, Rush Limbaugh has been light years ahead of other talk shows, forever, but it ain't because he's fair OR balanced.

I am just now reading that you don't think Scarborough is a real conservative in part because of the way he beats up on his own. Well, many people, including me, would say Juan W and Kirsten are hardly true-blue liberals. And I'll bet you that Juan W has beat up on liberals at least as much as Scarborough has beat up on conservatives. But hey, if I'm wrong, I stand corrected again.

CNN: I probably watch CNN the least of all of them -- it's just boring and weak, regardless of its leanings. But are they as liberal as Fox is conservative? I don't know that one either.

Race: Too bad, Z. Just when I thought we were making progress. I can honestly say I am saddened by your response here. It's a startling, albeit anecdotal, indication of just how hopeless the situation is.

Z, you obviously don't have to respond or even continuing read this. But if you don't mind, hear me out one last time, even if you choose not to respond:

Check it out: I sometimes download a podcast called the Tea Party Power Hour by Mark Villar (I think that's his name). He's as right-wing as anybody in America. He questions Obama's citizenship; he takes every position that we associate with "conservatives" and "Tea Partiers" and he takes it all to the max.

But even THIS guy sometimes laments over the ugliness in his ranks when it comes to racial issues. No, he is NOT "beating up on his own". He is OBVIOUSLY trying to better his organization and his associates by talking about it and fighting against it, and for that alone, I admire the guy.

net observer said...


Remember that story I couldn't tell you (and still can't tell) that might make your skin curl? It was actually a story that I heard an honorable conservative GOP-er share at a GOP fundraiser -- just 2 weeks ago. Similar to the podcast guy, this person wanted to let his/her fellow GOP-ers know that they have an ugly element in their midst but they remain determined to fight against it.

I admire that person just like I do the Tea Party podcaster. Because people like that give me hope. But I have to admit, my hope diminishes quite rapidly when a fair-minded person like you can't even see what I'm talking about.

"Maybe people need to do some 'self reflection' when they voted for a man with so little know.....oh, man, could I go on and on...self reflection? who?"

Personally, I think self-reflection is something we should all consider from time to time, especially when reasonable people are consistently accusing us of bad behavior. If that makes me unreasonable, call me unreasonable.

Z, please don't get me wrong. If you think my assessment on conservatives and race is nonsense, then that's your opinion. I'm certainly not gonna think any less of you. But I have to tell you, it's pretty doggone mind-boggling.

To me, your response is like an Arab saying his culture doesn't have any problems with terrorism. Or a black American saying his culture doesn't have any problems with street thuggery. In both instances, it's not a question of that Arab's or that black person's direct association with scumbags. The question is "Why does your group appear to have more of these pathologies than other groups?" A legitimate question.

But if that Arab/black person's only response is "There really isn't any difference", well, as far as I'm concerned, they are either solidly in denial or shockingly unaware of how they look to the rest of the world.

So indeed, I think a little introspection is worthwhile for Arabs, Blacks, and everybody else, including white conservatives.

Thx, Z!

Z said...

net...Shep Smith has a 3 hour afternoon show and is NO Republican, trust me.
Megan Kelly is extremely centrist, too... my discussion continuation on race, i'm TIRED of it. I don't FEEL racist, I don't KNOW racists and I'm DAMNED tired of being accused of it.
And, I'll go a step further and say I believe that it's Black 'leaders' who've done more to divide us than unite us.
I hope you read Walt Williams sometimes; he really tells it like I see it.

YOu say this:

"But even THIS guy sometimes laments over the ugliness in his ranks when it comes to racial issues. No, he is NOT "beating up on his own". He is OBVIOUSLY trying to better his organization and his associates by talking about it and fighting against it, and for that alone, I admire the guy."

I'd admire the guy, too, if I had heard of him.....also, how's he explain that 90% of Tea Partiers would vote for Alan West or Herman Cain YESTERDAY if they could?
I'd like your answer to that.

Re FOX... fine, think it's not fair. But, NEVER tell me CNN or MSNBC or NPR are fair then! you give the onus to ME to prove FOX has leftists, I tell you who they are and they're not leftwing ENOUGH?
Why doesn't CNN have ANN COULTER on, then...? Or THE VIEW? How about having her on instead of that weak quasi-Republican Hasselbeck? I know why, you tell me.

I could have sworn that it was you who said you agreed with me on another post that racism was mostly I hallucinating?

OH, and by the way: what GOPer would ever talk about 'something in their midst' that's racist? WHY? Let him CALL THEM OUT, by NAME if that's the case......

You suggesting there are NO racists within the Democrat party? REALLY?

net observer said...


"Megan Kelly is extremely centrist"

Z, this quote alone essentially brings our conversation over media bias to a screaming halt, for there is no way we can reconcile our differences if you think Megyn Kelly is "extremely centrist".

"you give the onus to ME to prove FOX has leftists, I tell you who they are and they're not leftwing ENOUGH?"

And when I point out Scarborough on MSNBC, you dismiss him and people like Hasselbeck as not being conservative enough, so I guess we're even on that point.

Also, Shep Smith, Chris Wallance, Brett Baier, are news reporters and moderators. They're not nearly as free to voice their opinions. Ergo, it's not a fair comparison as far as I am concerned.


Unfortunately, it's starting to look like there's no room for reconciliation on this issue as well.

Z, I swear I go out of my way to explain my EXTREMELY bend-over-backwards-to-be-fair position on this issue and I remain bewildered by many of your replies. Sometimes I wonder, "Is she actually reading what I'm actually writing?"

[I don't FEEL racist, I don't KNOW racists and I'm DAMNED tired of being accused of it]

Z, I can't tell if you're directing these statements at me, or people in general, or what. If you're directing them at me, I don't get it.

As my record shows, in vivid color and detail, I have NEVER, EVER, not even ONCE, accused YOU of being racist or having racist feelings whatsoever. Not one word, not one thought; not a wink, nor a nod; not publicly, nor privately.

"And, I'll go a step further and say I believe that it's Black 'leaders' who've done more to divide us than unite us."

Well, we agree on that point, but there is certainly enough blame to go around. And yes, I read Walter Williams sometimes and often agree with him. But my previous criticisms about white conservatives with respect to racial issues remain in tact, and for good reason.

net observer said...

[how's he explain that 90% of Tea Partiers would vote for Alan West or Herman Cain YESTERDAY if they could? I'd like your answer to that]

I'm happy to offer you my answer. It's quite simple, Z. It's the same way "uptownsteve", someone you have labelled as a black bigot, admires Michael Moore. It's the same way Louis Farrakhan liked to play Mendelssohn.

Ever heard of these guys? They are an organization of very OPEN, unapologetic white nationalists. But if you go to their Facebook page right now, you will find a rather conspicuous link to one of Walter Williams's articles. You
will also find an equally conspicuous video of one of their racialist brethren speaking at a Tea Party rally.

Frankly, their sentiments sound a LOT like that of a mainstream conservative publication (i.e., complaints over liberal media bias, concerns about black crimes against white victims, having problem with gov't interference in free markets, etc.)

For the record, my point is ABSOLUTELY NOT to draw equations between people like you and people like them. My point is, if I were a white conservative, I would be concerned about an organization like that feeling any kind of natural kinship to me.

Villar, the Tea Party podcaster, is apparently like me. No, he certainly does NOT believe that the majority of his fellow Tea Partiers are white nationalists -- and neither do I. In fact, I think, the reason he speaks against such elements in his movement is to underline the
fact that they are NOT like that!

Even HE recognizes, as I do, that just because you don't have a problem with the MAJORITY of your movement doesn't mean you don't have a problem at all. You may in fact STILL have a SERIOUS problem, regardless.

For example, most African-Americans don't commit street crimes, but street crime is still a serious cultural problem in the African-American community. Both statements CAN be true!

"I could have sworn that it was you who said you agreed with me on another post that racism was mostly I hallucinating?"

I'm sure I have said something like that before, Z. And I feel the exact same way today. For the record, I haven't said anything in this thread or any thread that would lead anybody to think otherwise.

Yes, I think racism, particularly the racism we think about in American history, is "mostly" gone. But "mostly gone" isn't the same as "all gone".

[OH, and by the way: what GOPer would ever talk about 'something in their midst' that's racist? WHY? Let him CALL THEM OUT, by NAME if that's the case]

Z, I explained in an earlier post that I don't wish go into the details of that story because of my concerns over privacy. If I told that story, people could easily figure out where I was and who I was listening to. And since the event was a relatively private fundraiser, I would rather leave it there.

"You suggesting there are NO racists within the Democrat party? REALLY?"

For the record, Z, I have never, ever, EVER, suggested anything of the sort.

Z said...

"Also, Shep Smith, Chris Wallance, Brett Baier, are news reporters and moderators. They're not nearly as free to voice their opinions. Ergo, it's not a fair comparison as far as I am concerned."

Then you have NEVER seen Shep Smith.

And yes, Megyn Kelly's just returned and is extremely fair and balanced....she calls in to question the LIbs as much as the Right...I call that Centrist. Whatever her political leanings are, you'd never know them.
You certainly do know Wolf BLitzer's, Candy Crowley's, Don Lemon's, Tony what's-his-name on CNN (A guy I like, by the way...he's black...I can't remember his name, do you?)

"But my previous criticisms about white conservatives with respect to racial issues remain in tact, and for good reason." But you really haven't given me one.

And no, I don't think YOU think I"m a racist, but when people slam the Tea Party members or Republicans (again, those are people 90% of whom would vote for West OR Cain in a hearbeat, how racist is THAT?), then I take the heat, too........

Wait a minute, you're saying that the TP folks who'd vote for West or Cain only want to vote for them to show they're open minded?......and they're too dumb to realize they might be RULED by them if elected? What kind of white nationalists would even VOTE for someone they didn't want 'ruling' them as president??

Man, wouldn't we have a time at a coffee shop? It would be SO SO SO much easier to explain ourselves in person, wouldn't it.

I WISH you got sent to LA sometimes...i'd demand we meet :-)

net observer said...

"Wait a minute, you're saying that the TP folks who'd vote for West or Cain only want to vote for them to show they're open minded"

Z, you totally lost me here. When I used the analogy of uptownsteve/Moore and Farrakhan/Mendelssohn, I was trying to say that just because someone votes for someone of another race/ethnicity doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't prejudiced; just like Farrakhan playing Mendelssohn doesn't mean he's not anti-Jewish, etc.

I was ultimately trying to point out the complexity in these discussions. That has to be recognized as a given. If not, any attempts to communicate are futile.

It bothers me (greatly) when a group becomes so hypersensitive to criticism that you can't seriously communicate with them. Throughout my life, I've seen it with African-Americans. And now I see it with white conservatives. Kind of ironic.

I believe everything I said about the troubling overlap between white conservatives and white nationalists is not only fair, but reasoned, easy-to-prove and obvious to ANYONE outside of the conservative circle. And I'll bet you that any true centrist, however you define "centrist", would agree with me.

Again, I hate to say it, again and again, but it might time for less defensiveness and more self-reflection. But I know you don't see it that way, Z, so I guess we might as well leave the race discussion here.

and btw...

"...when people slam the Tea Party members or Republicans...then I take the heat, too..."

Oh I'm sure I've experienced the same mistreatment in a differnt way =)

Lastly, I would also argue Shep Smith is more of a centrist. I'm assuming you think he's a liberal. And again, it's probably impossible to discuss media bias if we hold different definitions for the terms "liberal", "centrist" and "conservative".

Heck, I'm a big-time free-market defender and advocate -- and you think of me as "left" (or at least, I THINK you do). I guess you feel this way because of my non-religious views? But a lot of religious people are poltically left, and I promise you I'm not the only atheist who sees his politics as right-leaning.

Yes, meeting in person would make this a lot simpler -- I think =)

Z said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Z said...

Can you tell me how I'm being hypersensitive just because I disagree based on my own readings and personal experiences?

And I'd love to know...why should I reflect and consider when I've never seen it anywhere in any Republican blog or group I've personally attended?

You know me, you don't think I'd fight that to the death if I DID see it? REALLY?

By the way, those Blacks in private who slam Whites...they're NOT RACIST DEMOCRATS? REALLY? How's that?

Thomas Sowell and Walt WIlliams are heroes of mine. they're Conservatives.

"Overlapping" is a huge and incorrect way of expressing what some guy you hear suggests is racism in the Republican me.
It's dangerous to even discuss that and probably a ploy to discredit Republicans......
The GOP, who Michael Steele represented, by the way, at least doesn't play into the 'soft bigotry of low expectations'....and they know that not playing ball with Black entitlement seekers is NOT going to get us elected. We have a dilemma here........

No, Shep SMith is not a Conservative...actually, you'd have a hard time telling what the politics of the news people are. O'Reilly and Hannity are opinion Hannity is staunch COnservative and O'Reilly tries to look Centrist.
I'm pleased that the stats show so many Democrats and INdies watch FOX........and that their viewership is growing...
At least SOME people are getting both sides of some of the issues.

You've never mentioned my points about WOlf Blitzer or Don Lemon on CNN...not once. Please don't batter me about people I know a lot more about than you do, net.
I watch ALL the shows and laugh my head off when I hear the Dems insult Fox for bias :-)

net observer said...




The reason I didn't go into Wolf Blitzer or Don Lemon is because I maintain that reporters are in a different position than straight-up pundits. Your comparison feels like "apples and oranges" to me.

"Apples and apples" is Hannity and Maddow. Or maybe even MSNBC and FoxNews.

Plus, the criteria you use to distinguish a conservative from a liberal is so markedly different than mine, it even further complicates the discussion.

But putting media aside for now =)


Z, I am thrilled that we kept speaking on this subject because, thanks to you, we just touched on the heart of the matter:

"Why should I reflect and consider when I've never seen it anywhere in any Republican blog or group I've personally attended?...You know me, you don't think I'd fight that to the death if I DID see it? REALLY?"

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!! LOL

Z, this is why this debate is so frustrating to me. Bottom line, I cannot fathom how someone of your intelligence and integrity can be so dismissive of the criticisms I am putting forth.

net observer said...

The ONLY way I can begin to comprehend where you're coming from is via my experience as an African-American.

For example, I am fully aware that black people display a lot of resentment against white people, and back when "we" were truly oppressed, that resentment was easy for any clear-thinking person to understand. But as we all moved away from the days of REAL oppression, those expressions of resentment began to appear
increasingly misplaced, unfair...some would even say crazy.

But if you're black, that resentment doesn't look all that crazy. You just think go through life thinking, "Well, they just don't understand that part of us."

Meaning, "we" can differentiate between REAL black bigotry, on one hand, and harmless blacks expressing their feelings and frustrations on the other.

I am starting to believe this is similar to what you maintain about those white conservatives who express very incendiary -- dare I say, "racist" -- language about blacks.

Earlier in this thread, you said to me, "Net, the language here can get pretty ugly, but believe me, these people would LOVE to see all those pathologies in the blacks community disappear overnight." (paraphrased)

And I believe you. I really do. But when I see sites like, and I observe their apparent affinity to the mainstream conservative movement; and then I observe what I perceive as a lack of sufficient outrage from mainstream white conservatives when they see people like that showing an affinity to their movement, I cannot shake my feelings of discomfort.

Z, have you ever asked yourself, "What in the
heck did black people ever see in that anti-American, anti-white, anti-Semitic nutcase, Louis Farrakhan??"

And I could probably never explain that to you in a way that left you fully satisfied. But I wouldn't have to explain it to black people at all.

So again, maybe, just maybe, this is the same kind of thing in reverse. Regardless of how much I hold you and others like you in high regard, you could probably never explain away what I view as "too many similarities" (for lack of a better term) between mainstream white
conservatives and white racialists.

Who do you blame? How do we fix it? I don't know =)

Z said...

Net, you show your bias when you suggest people like Bret Baier and Neal Cavuto and Martha McCallum, etc etc., aren't giving the news. They DO the news all day long.
And yes, they have pundits, too, like CNN had Spitzer or has Piers Morgan or has Anderson COoper; you think they don't have bias?

Do you seriously think I don't get why blacks don't still bear grudges toward whites? Of COURSE I do. But, I personally think it's become worse because of black "leaders" like Sharpton and J Jackson and Rangel, net.
And, I'm saying the HUGE Preponderance of Republicans are NOT racist, so why should we be defensive? We should stomp whatever racism there is (and, as I keep saying, I HAVE NEVER SEEN IT and I WOULD notice it, trust me) and not feel guilt by association.........that's my point.
I REFUSE. What do I have to do, net, start a whole freakin' other political party because some people think there are a few NUTS in the GOP?

net, do YOU see something of value in Farrakhan? Please tell me what.
I'm stunned by what you said there.

I don't know what American3pm is, but it sounds radical to me; I don't have an affinity to idiocy; I have a great infinity to CONSERVATISM and now, from what you say, I'm actually getting that you blame me for that.

Are you KIDDING me?

You said "You just think go through life thinking, "Well, they just don't understand that part of us."

So do Whites, about Blacks, net...especially now after reading what you're saying.

I'm getting here that you think I"m wrong for being a Conservative because there might be some NUTS in the 'Conservative movement' and that I need to understand an anti-Semite/White-hating man like Farrakhan's attraction for Blacks (a majority of Blacks, REALLY?)

And I have NEVER EVER EVER seen two sides of ANY subject in the news so much as I do daily on FOX.....
Heck, the L.A. Times even stopped it's "Left/Right" opinions page years ago for only Leftwing editorials and they lost nearly half their subscriptions...should all liberals feel guilty about the fact that there's so little thinking in the L.A> Times or NY Times?

net observer said...

Z, I must be one pathetic writer, or maybe I'm losing my mind, or, I don't know what. But I swear, sometimes, I just don't understand how you get what you get out of the things I say.

"Net, you show your bias when you suggest people like Bret Baier and Neal Cavuto and Martha McCallum, etc etc., aren't giving the news. They DO the news all day long."

First of all, I would love it if you could share with me what you think my bias is. I really wanna know.

Nonetheless, Z, when did ever I say either of those three WEREN'T giving the news? If I recall correctly, the only one I mentioned at all was Brett when I was more or less defending him; when I said that he was a moderator and not a pundit and shouldn't be judged like a pundit.

Throughout this discussion, I was in fact trying to avoid mentioning straight-news reporters on any of the networks so we wouldn't confuse the issue. I prefer to address the issue of media bias on the cable news networks by focusing on the punditry class. i.e., Hannity, Maddow, O'Donnell, O'Reilly, Matthews, Huckabee, Maher, etc...these are all TV pundits with clear political agendum.

I think it's confusing to compare those guys with people like Baier, Shep, Lemon, Blitzer, etc., because, like I previously said, it's like comparing apples to oranges. These reporters may give their opinions at times, but they ain't like Hannity or Maddow or Fox & Friends or O'Donnell, where the entire point is to boldly offer your biased political opinion, 24/7.

And even when you throw in someone like Piers Morgan, it's a little odd. He may be a liberal, but his show, from what I have seen, is far more of an entertainment-based show, with straight-up Hollywood guests. That's not comparable to those straight-up political agenda driven shows.

"you think they don't have bias?"

Z, I admitted several posts ago that there was an overall liberal bias in the media. Did you miss that?

The whole point of my rant here was based on my fatigue with conservatives who continuously complain about media bias.

And my rationale is simple, Z. To me, their complaints sound like endless whining. They sound like they forgot they dominate talk radio. They sound like they forgot FoxNews is the most popular news network. They sound like they forgot that even the liberal-leaning networks eventually brought on conservative voices to help their credibility.

I don't know why, after all that progress, conservatives still complain like they're these embattled underdogs. They're VERY MUCH in the media now. Maybe there's a good explanation, but I don't get it.

"Do you seriously think I don't get why blacks don't still bear grudges toward whites? Of COURSE I do."

I never said that, Z. I said you may not understand CERTAIN things about black resentment.

"But, I personally think it's become worse because of black "leaders" like Sharpton and J Jackson and Rangel, net"

Well, like I said previously, I agree with there.

net observer said...

"And, I'm saying the HUGE Preponderance of Republicans are NOT racist"

I could have sworn I said the same thing.

"and not feel guilt by association.........that's my point.
I REFUSE. What do I have to do, net, start a whole freakin' other political party because some people think there are a few NUTS in the GOP?"

Z, let me be very clear. I don't think anybody has to do anything. I'm just telling you one of the main items that bother me about the conservative movement as a whole. I'm telling you how white conservatives are often perceived by very fair-minded non-conservatives of every persuasion.

I even gave you an example of a hardcore Tea Partier who apparently understands fully where I am coming from.

But if you think my take on all this is more or less overkill or nonsense or whatever, then so be it. For me, frankly, it only means what I and others declared long ago: the GOP (and/or the conservative movement) left me; I didn't leave it. And I'm totally okay with that.

"net, do YOU see something of value in Farrakhan? Please tell me what. I'm stunned by what you said there"

Well, Z, it's important to point out that I never said that *I* saw anything of value in Louis Farrakhan. Personally, I don't. Probably why I never said anything of the sort.

I was talking about African-Americans as a group, Z. More importantly, I was attempting to make the point that I, no matter how much I might try, would probably never ever succeed in explaining to you WHY so many African-Americans SAW value in Farrakhan back in the 90s.

I was only attempting to draw a parallel in your favor, Z. i.e., much like you will probably never understand why hundreds of thousands of black men descended on Washington for an event sponsored by Louis Farrakhan; similarly, I will probably never understand why so many decent white conservatives AREN'T troubled by what I view as very real similarities and overlaps with white nationalism.

And I say that understanding fully that you do not accept my premise, Z. I am even willing to say that you are probably right. BUT, it doesn't make me feel better about what I am observing. Simply put, I don't get it. I'm not comfortable with it and I don't feel obligated to feel comfortable with it, just like I 'm sure you don't feel any obligation to understand Farrakhan's appeal to blacks.

"I'm getting here that you think I"m wrong for being a Conservative because there might be some NUTS in the 'Conservative movement' and that I need to understand an anti-Semite/White-hating man like Farrakhan's attraction for Blacks (a majority of Blacks, REALLY?)"

This is what I meant when I said I must be a terrible writer. Z, how did you get that out of what I wrote? I really know that, too.

Z, I don't mean to be redundant, but let me state once again: I don't think anybody has to do or think anything, especially if they don't believe in it.

I am certainly not asking you to "understand" Louis Farrakhan (someone I do not respect), nor am I asking you to adopt or even understand my analyses of the conservative movement. Again, I'm just telling you what bothers me and why. And yes, I still feel that conservatives could stand to look in the mirror a little more.

But it's their movement, their choice =)