Monday, May 21, 2012

AMERICA'S TUG o' WAR

I was just at Silverfiddle's blog and asked, in a comment, what he thought was the answer for the terrible divide between Republicans and Democrats.  SO, I thought I'd ask you, too.

We've always had disagreements about high taxes, low taxes, abortion, etc etc........WHY DO YOU THINK THINGS HAVE REACHED A SEEMINGLY IMPOSSIBLE SITUATION WHERE EITHER SIDE WON'T GIVE IN......what is this really about?  What's THE BIGGEST thing that's really behind the GREAT DIVIDE OF 2012, that thing which seems to deter either side from any kind of cooperation?  It's almost like a tug of war, isn't it.

What caused this and why is it SO BAD THESE LAST 8 YEARS OR SO?  America's a democracy, we've always fought back and forth, why the sudden HATE and POWER GRAB?

As happens far, far too often to think this is a coincidence, just after I typed this post (Sunday afternoon), I ran across THIS ARTICLE.   The mayor of Newark, Cory Booker, is, I believe, wrong headed in his politics, but he sure did grasp the point of my post here!  He said Obama's ads are too negative and so are Romney's.  Gasp! He had the nerve to diss Obama?   Take a look.
UPDATE MONDAY MORNING:  Cory Booker is now 'walking back' from his criticism of Obama.    My, my, my..........he must have had a phone call.  He's even saying that Obama feels the same way about negative ads :-)   I guess that hazing gay guys doesn't count.  I guess the blasting of Romney and Bain doesn't count.  I guess........ ya, you get it.

Z

108 comments:

Bloviating Zeppelin said...

Simple. Very simple.

Because of Rush Limbaugh.

Up to that point, when Limbaugh went national, franchised and syndicated, Americans found they had a platform on which to speak.

When the pushback came from Rush Limbaugh -- and the resulting Conservative venues and talkers and publications -- Leftists pushed even HARDER.

This isn't tough to figure out.

When there was dissension, the PROPAGANDA Pogrom was ON.

Oh My! the Leftists exclaimed!

We CAN'T brook CONTRARY views!

BZ

Real Men Don't Drink Milk said...

Hopefully there won't be a tug of war and Obama will LOOSE by a large margin.

But thats just me hoping. for a change!

What a difference (almost) a year makes - but not for the good.
And I think that most people are starting to figure that out

Brooke said...

The mayor's statement is a disingenuous ploy. Obama can't come out and say, "Hey, be nice", because he won't be. He also won't decry vicious attack ads by 'unaffiliated' advertisers.

Meanwhile, Republicans will hear such pious admonitions and tone it down. Why do they fall for this every single time?

FairWitness said...

In my humble opinion, Z, the reason the divide is so great is that Democrats have pushed our country too far to the left. We have already compromised too much. We just cannot afford what we're already giving away - and yet THEY WANT EVEN MORE! We can't take of ourselves the way we'd like to and yet our government tells us we're greedy and don't pay our fair share. We resent the hell out of it!

Joe said...

Simple. Very simple. Liberals should just admit that they've been wrong and should come over to conservatives' side.

I wouldn't hold my breath, though.

IMHBCO, the experiment in freedom is over and liberals are ready to assume absolute power.

Cactus Mark said...
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Cactus Mark said...

"America's a democracy". No, America is a Republic.

That aside, a liberal is the little kid at the playground who runs around yelling to get attention. They possess a child's mind. This explains why liberals can grow to become conservatives; they can evolve. A conservative would have to suffer a traumatic brain injury (or castration) to become a liberal. This innate immaturity also explains why liberals think they are smarter than everyone else. Only a child could ignore centuries of human experience and tradition and claim they have the correct view of the world.

In order to better understand liberals we have to accept that not every mind is as evolved as our own. Personally, I consider liberals insects.

Silverfiddle said...

Progressivism's Blue Social Model is collapsing under its own accreted weight. Professor Walter Russell Mead has been writing about this for some time. Here is a link to his trenchant analysis.

The tug of war is between those who cling fearfully to the failed progressive model, and those who see it has failed and want to make a clean break.

The clear answer is to yank back our lives from the cold clutches of the clanking soulless monster known as the federal government.

The arguments in DC are over things they have no business deciding for us. Restrict them to the enumerated powers, and much of the arguing goes away, or moves to the individual states and communities where these arguments more rightly belong.

Colorado is very different from Massachusetts, and people in both states are damned glad.

We are not a one-size-fits-all nation, but DC treats us as though we were.

Scotty said...

It's a matter of perspective. Personally this "tug or war" tells me the system is working!

Was it a tug of war when the Senate democrats torpedoed President Obama's budget? And have the temerity blame Republicans for gridlock?

Personally I don't want the Democrats and the Republicans to
get along. Certainly not with today's Democrat.

conservativesonfire said...

For over a hundred years the left has been successfully changing our government structure by tilting it to the left. Clinton, Bush and,Onama have accellerated that process. Conservatives finally woke up in 2008. Now the left and the right see no romm for compromise. The left because they are so close to their goal and the right because they know they must try to turn things around.

Ducky's here said...

Ain't gonna change any time soon.

To me, Silverfiddle is the test case.

I kinda like the guy. Solid family man, values. I believe he can play country guitar and if I ever met him and we found a fiddle player we could probably enjoy playing old timey.

Then he pulls the stunt he did today and starts tell leftists what they believe. So he gets the inevitable response.

I don't believe he has any idea about the leftist vision that hasn't been formed by Hayek or worse, the likes of Limbaugh.

Conversation is impossible. The right fires their insult de jour, z seems to be enjoying Jew hater recently. Probably due to the fact that I don't take the knee to everything Likud does.

Then we have the Libertarians who go on and on about freedom. Try to pin them down on exactly what it is. Seems to have something to do with consuming goods and services. But so much emphasis on consumption that we lose our means of self expression and are live often only by virtue of being above ground.

So we go on and assume that defeating Obama is key to change. Absolutely ridiculous.

"I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go 'round and 'round,
I really love to watch 'em roll."

So glad to get back to street photography. That's my love. Want to destroy my freedom? Take my cameras.

Z said...

BZ, I believe that's very true but Limbaugh's been around for about 20 years...maybe more?

Still, the push back IS what it is.

For example: When did Christians fight about ANYTHING until suddenly MERRY CHRISTMAS wasn't allowed?

When did TEA PARTY people get together? When they saw 'redistribution' rearing its ugly, unAmerican head, and knew they had to act.

BZ, I agree with you....sadly, our schools had already been infiltrated, and I'm not sure our kids are up to wanting both sides of any political point anymore.

Real Men (I love your moniker, but you DO drink milk with chocolate cake, don't you?)!

We all hope for that TRUE CHANGE!


Brooke...As I've added to my post, the mayor walked back from his condemnation. The WH must have got to him.
Also, I was sorry to see the stupid Republicans jump on him with "Ah, DISSENSION IN THE RANKS" Why can't they just SHUT UP and act with dignity? The media covered it...even the lib media, LEAVE IT ALONE, it doesn't HELP.

FW...ditto to what BZ said above, right?

Joe...that'll be the day. Even if they knew what they were doing is bad for Americans, they'd NEVER EVER back down.
Sadly, they don't seem to remember what AMerica's about.

CACTUS, "Democracy" is what I said and what I mean. We VOTE, we ALL COUNT...that is democratic.
And yes, sadly, liberals have become something quite different than they used to be.

SF, good points about the States.....

SCOTTY, I thought about that, too. The new Gov of Mass. is in trouble with R's for working with the Dems, which I think is sad for our system, but he does seem to acquiesce when he shouldn't. They say this is why Romney's not looking for his support. We'll see.

CoFire...good comment. No room for compromise, though....there HAS to be compromise for any country to work, but the compromise always seems to go Left.

Ducky....I have never said "Jew Hater" to you once. But, I certainly have reacted to your constant support for anything anti-Israel.
Sorry it gets to you....but your hypocrisy is showing. You call many of us CALVINIST when we're not (although being Calvinist is not the sin you think it is), every chance you get, you slam Protestants every chance you get with really ugly comments...(I have NEVER criticized the Catholic points I disagree with...that the Bible disagrees with, EVER).
I could go on and on, but what's the point?

Of course getting Obama out is a key to a real change; we don't want to slip into your socialism and we'll fight it tooth and nail, as well as we can.

-FJ said...

It's contentions because there are two(+) different moral visions at work. And neither side wants to compromise with "the devil" (the other side).

It's all a difference in definitions and assessments of "moral hazards".

"Some of the Great Goods cannot live together," Isaiah Berlin has suggested. "Not only are we doomed to choose, but each choice may entail an irreparable loss."

Darth Bacon said...

The blacks will vote for Omammy no matter what!

Ducky's here said...

Well, actually twice recently you used Jew-hater to refer to my political beliefs, z. Once indirectly in reference to that Jew hater, Carter.

What's the point? I've come to the conclusion there is none. The right has been reduced to Liberals should just admit that they've been wrong and should come over to conservatives' side.. In other words there is no need to debate the right because they are in possession of the complete truth and don't even see the silliness in that position.

In many cases this is reflected back to sola scriptura which stops all discussion. Discussion is only for the benefit of the benighted to accept the extreme right's dogma.
It is not coincidental that the dogma is perfect for maintaining the populace in subservience which all to often becomes subservience to Kapital.

So now we just let her go down and watch what is built from the ashes. My guess is that we get a very authoritarian state which will be fine with the fringe right who's idea of freedom is eating something other than a tuna fish sandwich for lunch.

Darth Bacon said...

This guy got it right! Thank you

Lisa said...
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Lisa said...

The biggest divide was caused by the left , by getting Obama elected with propaganda ,having him be the catalyst for pushing a radicals agenda knowing Americans will be against it and then calling average citizens racist for going against those radical policies.It is the biggest insult ever to be put on Americans who are just concerned about the country.
It's all the left ,this I am certain of.

Darth Bacon said...

Lisa is right, welcome to America! Where an unelected person such as Moochie Obama tells us what to eat, what to drink, what to drive, what to smoke or not smoke.
But Her Husband don't give a crap!
Besides, How can you listen to someone with a Butt the size of Texas who tells you what to eat?
Do you feel sorry for the sheeple that follow these progressive demons so blindly and willingly? Let me see............ NO!!!
So what is the solution? Vote the BUMS out!

Z said...

DUcky, I repeat. I have NEVER used the term JEW HATER to you. NEVER.
Carter does hate Jews, it's in the body of his whole career. Board members walked off his Board after his last book.

"My guess is that we get a very authoritarian state which will be fine with the fringe right who's idea of freedom is eating something other than a tuna fish sandwich for lunch."
This and the rest of your ridiculous comment doesn't deserve response.


Darth...who got it right?


Lisa...the left keeps PUSHING...did you see the voter fraud program last night on FOX?
Why don't we hear about these things, like the 3 who are waiting trial for fraud? WHY? If they were Republicans, you could bet on it.
Good Americans wouldn't dream of fraud in voting.

Our voting laws must be fixed and we need to have a president who doesn't think being careful with voting is a Republican trap. @#($*&@(#*&$

I'm tired of his insults, his inferences, his redistribution, his lies, his slams of anything Republican.
PUSH PUSH PUSH.

I don't know what's going to happen but I don't see anything good ahead.

FJ, that's an excellent and apt quote......who'd have ever thought, however, that it would have to come down to this in America, where people put their country first and rewarded hard work, etc...

How did the DIVIDE happen that we have to choose?

Lisa said...

I started to watch it Z but I dozed off from lack of sleep the night before and a Christening all day yesterday.

I missed the earlier show and tried to watch the rerun of it later That's when I couldn't stay awake any longer

Lisa said...
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The Panzer Of Doom said...

Who here still thinks Vice President Joseph R. Biden will be on the 2012 ticket? Really? All of you? So wrong. The Great One, Our Emperor Barack Hussein Obama, will replace the bumbling, buffoonish Mr. Biden with Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton, maybe at the Democratic convention, maybe just before, in a last-ditch effort to win re-election

Lisa said...

Yes and I agree I have never seen such an insulting president in my lifetime.
how he addressed the Supreme Court at the STU address

When Joe Wilson yelled out "You Lie" winds up he was.

Z said...

I'll be back later but had to add something before I go because something caught my eye on Yahoo's homepage about the Lockerbie bomber's death.
There's a "Carol Something or other" on CNN in the morning, LA time, and I nearly burst into laughter at the way she announced the Lockerbie bomber being "Laid to rest.." As if she was announcing the laying to rest of a 3 year old precious child who'd died.
It showed so much...as usual.

Z said...

Panzer, I strongly doubt that. I don't think Hillary likes playing second fiddle.

Darth Bacon said...

Z said...
"Panzer, I strongly doubt that. I don't think Hillary likes playing second fiddle."


Maybe you're right, after all she's been such a great secretary of state. (((sarcasm))) .....I don't think anyone will race to vote for a VP Clinton..
But if you think about it, it would put Obama back into the lead and make Hillary a shoe in nominee for 2016, assuming the country as we know it still exists in 2016.


Hey maybe they should drop Obama and go for a Pig in a Pant Suit/Biden ticket!

Elmers Brother said...

Duhkkky you're so full of shit. Its the left that dictates, everything from what our kids are taught in school,what goes in their lunch box, transfats...you name it the left is the ideological dogma that tries to control nearly every aspectof our lives. Now you want a discussion after you've turned everything to shit. Bugger off!

Always On Watch said...

I agree with what FJ said:

It's contentions because there are two(+) different moral visions at work.

Both sides know that this battle is critically important. By "battle," I'm not referring to only the upcoming election, although November will indeed be a critical point in this battle.

It seems to me that the Right may have compromised over the years. When has the Left ever compromised? Really compromised?

Always On Watch said...

EB,
LOL to your comment.

Fed up, are you?

The Debonair Dudes World said...

Always On Watch said...
EB, LOL to your comment.
Fed up, are you?


I know that I am!

Elmers Brother said...

That's just it AOW, the left's idea of a "discussion" is you'll listen to what they have to say, then do what they say and you'll like. Everything in their world is imposed on people, what thinking, freedom loving person wouldn't be pissed off. They ruin everything they touch.

Silverfiddle said...

Ducky: What a crock of stinking offal your post is.

I provided concrete examples to back my point, and I included repubs as the culprits.

Progressives do not trust people to order their own lives, and they way they govern proves it.

You also grossly mischaraterize the libertarian idea of freedom.

It is simple: You are free to live your life however you see fit so long as you do not interfere with the freedom of others to do the same.

And you betray your progressive urge to control others with your dismissive remarks about what the unwashed would do with their freedoms if, Lilith forbid, the progressive government Leviathan actually left us alone and stopped trying to get us all to march in lockstep.

You progressives just can't stand the thought of individualism and that people may not be doing the right thing with their lives.

People like you, Ducky, long for the strong man who will impose your right thinking on us grubby hicks who reject your "enlightened" ideas.

Well, pack it where the sun don't shine. Your way doesn't work, as an examination of history clearly shows.

Z said...

Darth, I couldn't agree with you more; There IS NO WAY IN HELL Obama could lose with Hillary as his running mate.
GOd FORBID....we'll never be America again.

Dude, ME, too.
I notice a slowing of commenting at all our blogs and I think we ARE sick of it...and, man, there are MANY MONTHS more till the election. gad.


Elbro...would that they would even SEE it as ruination; they're all FOR redistribution, discouraging success, borrowing from our enemies, appeasing our enemies...etc. HOW did this HAPPEN to US?


SF....what could anybody add to THAT comment? Bravo

Always On Watch said...

EB,
the left's idea of a "discussion" is you'll listen to what they have to say, then do what they say...

That's it, exactly.

Leftists squawk about tolerance, but will not extend tolerance toward ANY who dare to disagree with them.

Z said...

AOW, who could argue the video I just posted (again)?
EVERYONE probably posted it already, I don't care...this is important and needs to be known.

"I gotta get ME some OBAMA DOLLARS"
imagine?

Ed Bonderenka said...

Z: Mark is right. America is a republic.
You may mean something else, like when we say America is a "bastion of democracy".
As you probably know, but I'll recount for some who don't, In a republic you vote for representatives, calm deliberative heads (Theory, Theory!) as opposed to plebiscites and mob rule.
This really does spell the difference between the two parties that bear the names.

Kid said...

Z, that's a great question. What has gotten the libs to a fever pitch, willing to annihilate their fellow countrymen ?

Here's my current opinion.

The losers have gotten a real taste of living the good life being a loser and they don't want to let go. Everything outside of that is a symptom or effect of this main concept. The left media feeds it and the voices from the right just turn up the heat.

Nothing like a women scorned? Hey, nothing like trying to pry the fantasy out of a liberal. It's why they go ballistic when rationality and facts are presented.

It wasn't that long ago that pretty much anyone would just laugh at a loser and call them a loser, which forced them to get a job to keep from living in a refrigerator box. Not today. Losers are rewarded and productivity is punished.

And just like any parasites, when all the healthy hosts are gone, they will be scrambling like helpless insects murdering each other for a scrap of food.

Liberalmann said...
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Kid said...

And a theme from the comments... Yep, socialism and capitalism are diametrically opposed.

When John McLame spouted he could reach across the aisle, he chucked any chance at the election.
(And I Heartily thank him for his service and sacrifice but it is time for him to go out to pasture)

If Romney starts talking about reaching across the aisle, he's toast.

Liberalmann said...

The racism which is underneath all the criticisms of Obama's accomplishments is what's dividing this county. That and the lies of Fox/Rush and the obstructionist GOP Congress. The fact that SCOTUS has allowed corporations to buy our democracy.

Here it is an a 2 minute video just out today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ltxMtS1Frpk

-FJ said...

How did the divide arise? In the struggle for "equality", of course. Those who value equality choose to do so at the "expense" of liberty. Those who value liberty more highly, do so at the "expense" of equality. Now as much as I desire BOTH liberty AND equality, I'm afraid that I cannot have them BOTH in as great a quantity as I might like, as liberty includes the opportunity to both SUCCEED and FAIL, and neither outcome promotes "equality". Finding the optimum balance between the two is difficult, as efforts to promote equality create a moral hazard that discourages liberty, and visa versa, promoting liberty leads to ever greater inequality.

Partisans on BOTH sides of the political divide USED to understand reality, that one cannot have their cake and eat it, too. Unfortunately, people are no longer as "wise" as they used to be. They no longer care that in order for themselves to WIN, many others must LOSE. And those unfortunate "others" are also American people.

Silverfiddle said...

So, is racism responsible for high unemployment and our economy being in the toilet? Yeah, the economy is racist and hates having a black president...

Thanks for the comedic relief, Liberalmann!

-FJ said...

Wisdom and justice are similar opposites. Courage and temperence, still others. With each situation, one must "choose". Should i act, or not? To be, or not to be....THAT is the question. ;)

-FJ said...

Liberalmann has NO Charity for our position. He assumes our motives and intentions are "nefarious" and NOT borne of a faith in the power of LIBERTY. And so he attributes the false "motive" of racism to explain our actions to himself... for he believes that HE is morally "good" and WE must therefore be, "evil".

-FJ said...

I have no doubt that mr ducky and liberalman love this nation as much as we do. They are acting in a manner that they truely believe is BEST for our nation. Unfortunately, they cannot believe that we act with the very BEST of intentions as well. And so we accuse, attack, and counterattack... involved in an epic moral battle for the soul of AMERICA.

Liberalmann said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Liberalmann said...

The 'soul' of America is being decided in board rooms and Romney will let that continue on steroids:

https://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/05/21#.T7qxn6rjTQs.facebook

The right distracts from this by calling Obama a 'socialist' or getting people to be against better health care for their own families.

net observer said...

an extremely complicated question. first and foremost, some perspective. sure it's probably worse now than in recent memory. but it ain't as tense as, for example, the 60s. (is it?) and depending on your community, it may have been worse in the 90s.



but of course we all know what you mean. i am personally amazed at how much i irritate people on the left and the right when i think i'm bending over backwards to be fair to all. my conclusion? a lotta people with a lotta passion, on all sides, honestly think the future of our country is a serious question. thus, in many cases, it's more about a high-stakes fight and less about an academic discussion.



you point out the last 8 years. does that coincide with the popularity of blogging?



we've had an explosion in published opinion, which continues to proliferate and pervade traditional media. so maybe all this tension is in part a by-product of our technology.

Kid said...

FJ, That's an excellent point. I do believe that the current media and educational based indoctrination system in this country has produced this kind of liberal. Closed minded, violent, believe that Conservative are guilty of all the things their masters accuse us of being.

Of course it's all brain washing and misdirection. I'd say I feel sorry for them but I don't. I reflect back and I was stupid once but I was never as stupid as these idiots are, nor was I ever as accepting to march to the popular culture drum.

So they can take their heroes like Sean Penn, George Clooney, oBAMa, Sarrandon, Steve Jobs, and all the other braindead super-rich(did I mention all these people are rich?) and live with them in the hell they create for themselves.

Unfortunately, we will suffer from it to some extent, but we are much more equipped to zig, zag, and deal with the oppression that will soon be upon us.

People have lived through much worse and have had good lives for themselves and their families. England during WWII. Americans during the depression. We will not only endure, we will prosper.

They will suffer, because the only things they've learned how to do is check into daily kooks, or du and get their conservative hate marching orders for the day.

Instead of learning history, reading and writing and math, they're learning how to put condoms on cucumbers, and appreciate alternative lifestyles.

They're going to be so unhappy, and no doubt 100% they will blame it on conservatives. What a place eh?

Kid said...

Net Observer - "sure it's probably worse now than in recent memory. but it ain't as tense as, for example, the 60s. (is it?)"

Yeah, I believe it is. See my post a little above where I believe this country has done a major mindset shift from wanting to use the opportunity to build a life through hard work, to wanting to have it handed to them and to feed off the people and concepts that actually provide that opportunity to the point that it ceases to exist. A concept that completely escapes them.

They think doctors will accept a 50% pay cut.

They think innovators will continue to produce the candy for them after the reward no longer exists. They in for a Big Surprise ! :)

When you tax at 75%, those you tax cease to exist.

net observer said...

i concur that our overall mentality is steeped in entitlement. but how long has that been the case? i remember complaining about it in the 90s as much as now. i often wondered, "other parts of the world are growing. the global marketplace is real. how can america compete?" apparently the answser is "we can't." not unless we shift gears. but we seem to prefer "cruise control".


our 1st-generation immigrants still understand the fruits of a strong work ethic and frugality, don't you think? i see transplanted indians and africans having a ball these days. it's the americans who have been here forever (most of us) who think "i am therfore i deserve."


yes, people will freak out if their taxes exceed what they think is reasonable. but will they respond with passports or guns? for me, that's the difference btwn now and then. but you never know.

Kid said...

Net, I'd say there are some things going on today that add to my case.

As you say, where are kids going to work even if they want to?

Yes, immigrants do much better. They come here from oppressive societies and for them setting up a business is Simple! A Godsend. For America's youth, it seems impossible.
Lack of education is partly responsible and easy living probably the rest.

I think the rich respond with passports. That's certainly what they're doing in France as soon as the new socialist president announced 75% tax rates for "the rich". They're jumping ship.

I think of it as such a natural thing. Path of least resistance. Water seeks it's own level.

Can you imagine the soup lines during the depression and people begging for any kind of work today? I could be wrong, but I see violence, theft and home invasion instead.

Z said...

Libman, I have TRIED, but I am finally pressed to tell you that you are a TOTAL MORON and, much as I don't like name calling here, you have to know the truth.
MY GOD, if you don't think Obama's moving toward socialism, GO BACK TO SCHOOL or CONSULT YOUR DICTIONARY.
You really just Freakin' DO NOT THINK. DAMN.

Z said...

net, I think you feel you are fairer than you are. The minute something goes a little against Obama, etc., a little to the Right, you react pretty obviously defensively; don't kid yourself, really.

As for immigrants, KID AND NET....NO, I think that's not the case. Yes, some new immigrants are thrilled to be here but it's now mostly immigrants who are here for the hand out, people who actually get their children paid for by being here. How can one be HERE ILLEGALLY and taking our money and cheating by crowding ten into apartments the owner says can only have four adults, etc etc etc... and still respect the country?

I was driving through a part of town not far from me that's swarming with illegal Hispanics...and I thought "I wouldn't give a damn what they are if they just spoke English and celebrated OUR country's customs and wanted to contribute instead of take."

WHo the heck wouldn't do what they're doing when our purse strings are SO open to them? It's NUTS to think otherwise.

As a matter of fact, some stats show they're leaving because there aren't jobs HERE! They can't send money back, untaxed, to Mexico. I hope you saw that article on how some men are getting OUR money for 15 children HERE when they HAVE ONE kid .... they send the money back!

We're literally a JOKE to these people...a big dirty welcome mat.

No, I don't think most immigrants are grateful and "having a ball" here.

By the way, to be fair, I also see young Mexican families with children who are poor but very clean and well kept...it's very sweet. They DO go to ENglish-speaking schools and are learning English but that's because they're not living in the barrios which are farther than me, near downtown, etc.

Kid said...

Z! Point taken. Yes, I was being myopic thinking of immigrants from Iran, Greece, Italy, Russia ! etc. They come here, set up businesses and love America.

Nolo Contendre on the Mexicans. Many come to work. Many more come to feed off the freebies.

Imagine moving from the USA to Any Other country ! - Driving around without a license or insurance, having accidents without consequence. Your kids go to school for free, your family gets free medical care, and You VOTE to keep it all coming and you're not even a citizen! GOOD GOD !
Oh, and then you file tax returns claiming 25 kinds in Mexico you support and getting thousands of dollars back that you send to Mexico !!

Now there is something else that wasn't happening in the 60's.

Thanks for adding that. Sorry for my not adding it.

Silverfiddle said...

Libmann: What would you do about the corporations? Surprise us and make a thoughtful, intelligent and original comment for a change.

Z said...

Kid, no need to apologize! I just had such an eyeful just this afternoon around here and it got me thinking, so you reminded me of it with the talk of immigrants..

By the way, we have thousands of Russians here in Santa MOnica who WE paid to come here through amnesty deals/ poverty help, etc. They live so high on our hog you would NOT BELIEVE IT. Most are elderly...it's astonishing. Yes, they're here because it's a better life, but it's ON US, trust me.
ANd they live with ocean views in subsidized housing.

I don't necessarily mind that in a sane America who could afford to be big hearted, as in the past...but now we're all hurting and they are NOT.

Kid said...

Z, foreigners coming and living here for free and not contributing ?
Add all this together and the greatest system in the history of man WILL come crashing down. Soon.

net observer said...

Z, your comments about my reactions when things go "a little anti-Obama" are probably among the most laughable and groundless I have ever heard. I would ask you to cite an example of this irrational bias you've witnessed in me, but based on prior experience, I am guessing that you wouldn't oblige.


Frankly, I think it's b/c you don't have any such examples. Ergo, I will take your advice and not kid myself into thinking that you will prove otherwise, or, admit that your allegations aren't based in fact.



But I'm curious, Z. Who would you describe as "fair"? And to make it interesting, name persons from both the right and left.

Ticker said...

Libtard it has nothing to do with racism or the other insane reasons that you have posted.
What it comes down to is that your ideology wants to destroy the very foundations of this country while the rest of us want to preserve a great county where opportunity is available to all if they are willing to "work" for it. Something that your type doesn't understand.

The constitution guarantees us the that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. NO WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS TO MAKE IT HAPPEN, I. E. TO MAKE IT HAPPEN . Your side want to "make sure by taking from those who produce and give to those who do nothing just so they can have happiness.

There is the biggest difference in the Left and the Right.
It is called a hand up rather than a "hand out" as you and your ilk would insist on occurring.

Z said...

net, if you'll remember, we played the "who's fair and who isn't" about 2 months ago.

Sorry it shook you up. It's an observation and it's frequent. If you feel differently, that's fine!
Just an observation. WHy would I say it if I hadn't felt it??

net observer said...

btw, i think it confuses issues to conflate legal immigrants with illegal immigrants. i was talking about legal immigrants.



But either way, and more importantly, I was speaking of their work ethic and frugality, not so much their "patriotism" or their "respect for English".


in most cases, they see opportunity, not entitlement. I've seen Asian communitites with limited "acknowledgement" of English, if you will. But they're thriving, well-kept, and replete with strong work ethic. Doesn't bother me that they seem a little "foreign". but that's just me.

net observer said...

we did? i honestly don't remember. but if it shook me up, i probably stopped reading.



no need to apologize, tho'. at some point, we all have to admit to agree to disagree. something i have learned after probably too long.



frankly, i think you and many others mean well; left, right, whatever. i just wish some people would try a little harder to understand others who mean well. probably a dream. oh well.

Z said...

Darn, I wrote a long comment to your comment about foreigners, net and, suddenly, my blog bumped me off and I had to sign in again and it disappeared. :-(

Let me just say that I'm first and second generation in this country so "a little foreign" doesn't bother me in the slightest. "A little foreign" is what made us strong over the years, as a matter of fact.

And ya, I think the language and patriotism are important to a country's cohesiveness.... They used to come so eager to learn the language, I've seen it so many times........and many naturalized citizens I know are far more patriotic than many natural born citizens....

it's important to any country to at least TRY to share a profile...and the foreign thing makes that richer as long as it doesn't come before the country.

Z said...

net, I think there's something to understanding that not all others do mean well. I don't think some of my liberal commenters mean well at all; it's all insults and linking to far left propaganda they know will upset people who don't agree with it.

I, too, wish we could all talk with civility and actually put America before ideology. I happen to think that honoring the past, the founding fathers, telling the truth about things, is important...crucial. Some don't seem to.

I will never apologize for being a patriot and lover of most of our history. I'll never apologize for not being a leftist. go figure.

viburnum said...

Lib-Mann: "The racism which is underneath all the criticisms of Obama's accomplishments ..."

Bullshit! I'll bet you I voted a black man for President before you did. His name is Alan Keyes.

As for Obama, the man is nearly as inept a President as the peanut picking poltroon from Plains. He is not exempt from criticism because of his skin color.

On your other point, let me see if I can explain this so that even you can understand. Corporations are made up of shareholders. Shareholders are people. People have rights. That includes the right to manage and safeguard their own best interests. Why are the leftist advocates of 'collectivism' are constantly bitching about people acting collectively? That is what a corporation is, and the right to do so is NOT reserved to the government.

Z said...

now, now, Viburnum; we're only racists if we don't vote for a black DEMOCRAT :-)

viburnum said...

In that case I probably am biased since all the Democrats I could have possibly supported have been driven out of the party by the far left. We call them neo-cons now. LOL

Z said...

V..good one.

They Say/We Say said...

Robert Reich wants to stop our right to donate to the politicians we approve of. This a game to dissuade the uninformed people and the unthinking people to let the Old Timers stay in Office. If they can keep money out of campaigns then the little man could never get his choice for a Senator or Representative into Office.
They have limited us little folks to $2,500 donations-all the while they have the Unions and Their Buddies from the Big Corporate Brother Hood keeping them in Office , ah yes the Wall Street Gang also, all are the Buddies of the Democrats. Just look at the records of the Donors to the Democrat Party. And listen to the Dems scream when the Repubs want to make everyone who donates to be recorded, ha the Dems scream.
When a Big Corp donates to the Republican Party the Dems cry fowl, and want to take away money from the Election process, just the way the Fascist do it.
Anyone who listens to Robert Reich and thinks he has their best interest has to be a little short of grey matter.

They Say/We Say said...

Z my rant was to the video referenced by Libman.
That Fascist ideology from the Dems has to be exposed to the younger crowd who don't have a clue what is going on. They haven't lived long enough to know what we are saying on these comments.
I wouldn't call these youngens dumb or idiots. Just WET BEHIND THE EARS.

net observer said...

Last point, for whatever it's worth: Yes, I get bent out of shape when I think someone has been mischaracterized. And yes, this includes charges hurled at those on the left.

For example, I understand that many on the right think Obama's a racist. I just happen to think that's total b.s. I also get bent out of shape when people label scholars like Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell "Uncle Toms". I think that's total b.s., too. And fwiw, I have similar reactions when people casually generalize white rightists as "racists" or progressives overall as "anti-American", even though I'm aware that there are "some" racist white rightists and "some" anti-American progressives.

But more to the point, I don't think of myself as a lefty when I defend lefties or a righty when I defend righties. But apparently a lot of people in this political tug-of-war do. And that's just weird to me.

I don't think of myself as gay when I defend gays, or Jewish when I defend Jews, or Christian when I defend Christians. So what's the difference? Especially when I don't defend anybody unless I think they deserve a defense?

When I defend America, or blacks, or men, or atheists, it's not because I'm an American, or black, or a man, or an atheist. Heck, sometimes it's not even a "defense". Sometimes it's merely an attempt to provide perspective. Dare I say, a sense of fairness?

Oooh, how subversive.

You may ask, "How did we get to this point?" But nowadays I just wanna know know how we get the heck out.

nicrap said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
nicrap said...

P.S. I have formerly not much bothered about being mistaken for FJ ... partly because i anyway rarely comment here. But in the light of my comment above, i would like to set the score right. I am not FJ. I am a rather average Indian who has never even been to America.

I don't know what caused the initial misunderstanding but ... firstly, even though FJ does use several "handles", he always uses them to sustain one single argument. And, secondly, as far to my knowledge he openly avows to those "handles", so why wouldn't he do it with respect to Nicrap? I think that should put all your fears to rest.

A very good day to you!

nicrap said...

@ Mrs. Z

It was with a general idea in mind that i set out to write the first comment, which is why perhaps at one point i referred to you in third person ... yet, both of them, the first and the second comment, were essentially directed at you.

Forgive my clumsiness. :)

Z said...

Net you said "You may ask, "How did we get to this point?" But nowadays I just wanna know know how we get the heck out."

That's for sure.

YOu seem to have very different feelings, but I do stand up, even for Obama, when I see a person's done the right thing and I always have. Of course, my idea and someone else's idea of 'the right thing' might be different. But I've never missed a chance to give Obama credit when he's done something that feels right to me.

I'm not sure anyone feels they have to be Jewish to defend Jews. If that was the case, I'm Jewish now.



NICRAP, our society's gone so far from the capitalistic republic America was, and our morals have sunken so low, too, that many people have started to see what at least half of America regards as immoral as moral. Any push back is supposedly "reactionary" now. There isn't anything new to this.

I am a woman, do you think I'd act against women? I am not rich, do you think I'd act against the poor? I have gay friends, would I act against gays? I am Christian, I hate no one.

Odd that you even noticed that I've talked about you being yet another FJ sock puppet and never brought it up till today. I haven't mentioned that for a pretty long time.

Thersites said...

You see, nicrap, my motives are nefarious... the charity that used to prevail is no longer present.

Thersites said...

The same is true of the relationship between Left and Right as between Z and myself. And once that "trust" has been lost, the chances of re-establishing a connection become slimmer and slimmer. HOw can you reeconcile with someone whom you no longer trust and believe to be acting in a manner intending to harm you?

Notice the moral terms used. "Half of America regards the immoral as moral."

I don't know about anyone else, but I find the arguments for greater equality extremely "moral'", and not "immoral" at all. I don't agree with them, but i don't view them as "immoral". Naive, perhaps, but definietly NOT "immoral.". A choice between two conflicting "goods".

-FJ said...

...and just one final point. The Right IS reactionary, for they have benefitted and succeeded whilst operating w/i the bounds of the older established system of order.

Those who are "young", or have not yet succeeded, believe that the system is "unfair" and rigged against them. They are correct, in many of their assumptions. It is true, the system has never placed the entry level competitor on a par with the established veteran (the argument FOR affirmative action). But then the unsuccessful later charge the successful with having conspired to rig the system against them. In this, they are for the most part, mistaken. The system has never been fair from the very beginning. Chronos has ensured that this state of affairs will exist for ALL time.

There used to be a saying, "If my son were not a communist at age 20, I would disown him, but if not a conservative at 30, I would disinherit him." In other words, it's takes a few years to learn how to succeed when operating within the system... then those who fail, seek someone to blame. The only problem, the person that they should be blaming is themselves.

nicrap said...

May Zeus Xenios watch over us, sir! Oh, but i forget, he was a Pagan god. ;)

Thersites said...

As you well know, I'm no Christian. ;)

net observer said...

nicrap, you're my kinda people =) Seriously.

"What is it about conservatives and their ideology that they come across as reactionaries to so many people?"

nicrap, have you ever heard that line from Smerconish, "I'm not trying to end a conversation, I just want to start one"?

How I WISH that was a more popular formula in today's discourse. I thank you for this re-boot =)

Whenever I hear, or posit, this question about how outsiders view today's "conservatives", I can't help but harken back to my past experiences with the black left circa 80s/90s. For me, the similarities are almost uncanny.

15-20 years ago, to be blunt, African-American politics and its social "movements" -- like the Million Man March, or the reactions from the OJ Simpson verdict, or the LA '92 riots, or the bizarre lionizing of Louis Farrakhan, etc -- came across as nuts to a lot of non-blacks.

And for good reason. In the end, you cannot advocate nonsense like the endless rationalization of violent street crime, or a series of bizarre conspiracy theories like "genocide against young black males" or "racially biased" entrance exams, without causing a lot of people to conclude that you have lost your collective minds.

To be blunt, it didn't matter if the vast majority of blacks didn't seriously believe in all that stuff. "We" nevertheless allowed ourselves to be represented by it, and as a group, it was irresponsible behavior.

I used to ask myself, "What were 'we' thinking? How did the same people who spawned the esteemed Civil Rights Movement turn into THIS?"

I honestly don't know. But I finally concluded that "we" saw ourselves as "under assault" by the larger society. Some of that thinking was based in historical realities. But a whole lot of it was based in a kind of paranoid group-think that got way out of hand.

Those of us who dared to go against the grain -- the Clarence Thomases, the Thomas Sowell's, The John McWhorter's, etc. -- did so at our own peril. If you wanted to feel shunned by your community, that was probably the best way to do it.

Having said all that, I am happy to say that it's considerably better now, despite the opinions of some outsiders.

Now, fast-forward, 2012. What do I see? The same party/ideology that attracted me because of its sober, thoughtful, reality-based disposition, is now notorious for its emotionalism, pugnacity and sometimes half-baked parroted pablum.

I'm not alone in my opinion. MANY former GOP-ers/right-wingers feel as I do.

net observer said...

One might ask, "Why would anybody think that the conservative movement seems a little crazy right now?" How about the fact that more than half of the GOP thinks that our president is probably not, or definitely not, a naturalized American citizen?

Well, like it or not, the belief that the current president, in an information age, has gotten away with the most colossal forgery in the history of the world sounds crazy to most Americans.

One might also ask, "Why does today's conservative movement strike people as less intelligent than yesterday's conservative movement?" How about the fact that people like William Buckley were once the face of conservatism, but now it's people like Sarah Palin and Sean Hannity?

But above all, why do people think the conservative movement is racist?

Good question. Personally, I don't believe it is. But, I can certainly understand why other thoughtful people might disagree. Case in point: Was anybody shocked about Derbyshire and Nat'l Review?

Or let me put that another way: Did it surprise anybody, left or right, to know that an admitted white racist was a contributing writer to one of America's most reputable conservative magazines? I don't think it did.

Did it surprise anybody to see the wealth of support Derbyshire received from hundreds if not thousands of white racialist/nationalist-sympathizing commenters? I don't think so. But why not?

Simple. Because white racialist types, in 2012, feel more at home among conservatives than among liberals. That's just the way it is.

Of course, one can say something similar about the left and anti-white bigotry. But that's a separate issue.

Why not EXPLAIN conservatism in depth when an issue like "Derbyshire" arises? That's how YESTERYEAR's conservative would have handled it.

To be perfectly honest, I think Derbyshire made some legitimate points in his controversial article. Don't get me wrong. I would never want to be friends with a guy like him for obvious reason. However, I never applauded his firing. I thought it was a a bit cowardly for NRO to do what they did.

I thought Derbyshire's situation was a perfect opportunity for conservatives to deal squarely with the race issue from a conservative perspective. And that doesn't mean turning to Alan West or Herman Cain for a life-raft.

A William Buckley, or even a Thomas Sowell, would have addressed this issue conservatively and straight-on. They would have said something like, "Look. We think it's better to discourage counterproductive behavior, even if others mislabel us as 'racists'. Allow us to explain in depth."

But instead, in today's movement, we got the predictable reactions like "sweep it under the rug and move on asap", a reaction that, ironically, tends to confirm what non-conservatives already believe conservatism.

But a real, serious, candid, in-depth discussion about conservatism and race may have done a lot more good.

All of the above is quite disappointing to witness. And i say that as someone who once proudly wore the label "black conservative GOP-er" many years ago.

so nicrap, MAYBE it's not ALL about people interpreting conservatives as "too reactionary". Some of it is about the movement today striking most people as just plain weird.

Final Point: Criticisms like mine can no longer be placed at the foot of the liberal media. Not when you can listen to talk radio all day and night and still reach the same conclusions.

Z said...

thanks for proving my point, Net.

We're just curious and we don't swallow the media's version of every story......and we feel it's important, even if we get called names for it.

Z said...

"One might ask, "Why would anybody think that the conservative movement seems a little crazy right now?" How about the fact that more than half of the GOP thinks that our president is probably not, or definitely not, a naturalized American citizen?"

Did you mean to say this?

Mustang said...

No matter where you go in society, you will find examples of racism. If not racism, then some other “ism.” We are human, and this means we are far from perfect. To say that an entire political spectrum is racist seems a bit of an overkill, doesn’t it? But if you wanted to make a case for political racism, would you go with people who continue to enslave black Americans by dent of low expectation, or with those who want every American to succeed, regardless of skin color.

I don’t know how a “progressive” can applaud Margaret Sanger, for example. Who did more damage to American blacks than she? Yet, she is the heroine of notable Democrats today, including the former Speaker of the House.

Personally, I like Dr. King’s advice: judge a man by the content of his character. If we do that, then we cannot have much regard for the likes of Jackson, Sharpton, Farrakhan, or Wright. It isn’t racial. It is just pure, unadulterated disgust for people of low character ... including people with white skin, or yellow skin, or red skin, who apparently compete with one another to see who has the lowest character.

Z said...

Mustang, AMEN to that.

nicrap said...

@FJ

As you well know, I'm no Christian.

And i am the Christian par excellence. Only i am afraid on closer enquiry even he might turn out to be a Pagan. ;)

nicrap said...
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Pris said...

Net, in reality no one has to bow to your confused thinking. It seems that, no matter how well you know some of us, nothing we say is good enough for you.

It's not clear to me what you want or what you think. Meanwhile you proceed to tear us down while pretending you are open to our opinions and beliefs.

What's mystifying is how whatever any of us say, you declare it's not real, as if you're a mind reader or something.

You would do well if you take people at their word, and not ascribe some dark, hidden meaning to it.

Frankly, I don't worry about what you say, or your doubts. That's your problem not mine, Z's or anyone else's.

I think it's rather sad it has come to this. If you're looking for political correctness, for the most part you won't find it here.

nicrap said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
nicrap said...

@ FJ

You may be right, sir, and it may be all a matter of age ... that as people become older, they begin to see the wisdom of conservative position - or they ought to, anyway. I do not have any statistical data to argue either way. But i do suspect the answer may be something more basic. Something to do with the very nature of "truth" itself ... but we can always carry this discussion some other time. :)

Right Wing Theocrat said...

I don't think it's a tug of war, that implies that there are two valid directions. The way I see it, we Conservatives want us and our children to have a better world and to preserve the western way of life. Liberals and the left want to destroy it.

We Conservatives are quite happy for liberals to head over the cliff by themselves, but they insist on dragging us along with them.

-FJ said...

Typical lame tea bagger response.

Don't worry, I've got no problem slapping you on the back of your head when you choose to demonstrate your hubris (the opposite of caritas), either. Themis OR Nemesis, BOTH goddesses are perfectly capable of granting people their due rewards. Your choice. ;)

-FJ said...

@ Nicrap

Another time, perhaps. :)

-FJ said...

@ net observer,

I never saw the million man march as "nuts". I sympathisize with the "canary in the coalmine" of the American liberal experiment.

As Herbert Marcuse predicted, unleashing "Eros" by removing the presence of "Thanatos" from a child's upbringing has real world consequences. And such is the case in nearly 70% of black American's lives (fatherless kids).

-FJ said...

@liberalmann on caritas

1 Corinthians 13

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

-FJ said...

...but then charity is a quality of mercy... something only the powerful typically exhibit.

The powerless are inclined towards exacting more "bitter" forms of retribution.

Z said...

FJ, who would disagree with you about charity?

nicrap....One of the biggest wrong perceptions of the Europeans among whom I lived for five years was that Blacks in America think all Whites are racists....Europe seems to thrive on that somehow, it's almost like "See? America doesn't do EVERYTHING right"

I don't believe all Blacks think all Whites are racists; not even CLOSE.

By the way, Conservatives believe that it's better to give a man in need the fishing line and not just free fish.
We also believe one must train that person to fish for his own.

And this doesn't apply to Blacks any more than it applies to Whites... Needy has no color.

Today, in the preschool class I teach, one of the little girls raised her hand when we were talking about Abe Lincoln and Dr. MLK Jr., and said "My mommy says we should give food to Black people!"

I told her that was really nice of her mommy but that there are white people who need food, too.. and there are plenty of black people who don't, who work hard and buy their own food.
It was a good moment in that group of 4-5 year olds. They really listened and absorbed. Great lesson.

Our children MUST NOT BE TAUGHT BLACKS CAN'T PROVIDE FOR THEMSELVES! They must be taught to be CHARITABLE and help anybody they see in need.



Also, Conservatism is not becoming 'irrelevant' as much as 'maligned'....part of that's the media's fault (at least 90% of journalists identify as liberal) and part of it's our school indoctrination (i believe the stat is that 92% of profs are liberals).

There are those who don't want to work hard, who want to rely on government, who actually believe gov't money will always be there for them, who don't want to tighten belts ...who put themselves and their comfort above their country.
So, they must malign Conservatives who believe in people, who think we can make it on our own and feel good about our successes...etc etc..

not 'irrelevant'....no.
But it doesn't fit the world ethos anymore to stand up and be a man, have good values, work hard, and not depend on the gov't...

Kid said...

Z, the company I work for has gotten on a volunteerism kick. They sent out a all employees email saying they(some mgmt people) were going to go down last weekend and clean the kitchen at one of these place where people come in to get fed.

WHAT?!? No, I'm not going to give people food, cook it for them and then come back and clean up. Why can't they clean?

Unreal. This attitude is unhelpful.

On the radio a few months ago, the shelter had a "crisis" because the people who came in for breakfast had no one to cook for them. Weather problem or something.

They can't cook their own eggs ?!?!?!?

Not Good Z !

Liberalmann said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Z said...

Great points, Kid....why not indeed? COOK, CLEAN...we're FEEDING YOU!
No, they've been taught to feel they're entitled.
AFter Katrina, remember when folks were taken to some big stadium in TX to be fed, sleep there, etc.?
I heard a guy call in to talk radio saying his mom was a nurse and she'd gone to help. (Republican, of course)
She was appalled at the young people sitting on their cots smoking and throwing their butts around, doing NOTHING to help anybody.
She said they finally had to bus in illegals from MX to do the cleaning. Everyone just SAT THERE waiting to be waited upon.
Not in the Midwest with the floods, etc...remember, they shove their sleeves up and go to work, and don't complain. wow.



Libmann ...I don't get it? Really? I am deleting you because you're ugly, nasty, insulting and not too smart and yet you keep commenting and I DON"T GET IT? :-)

I'm going to define socialism for you?? No, I"m not. I"m busy. LOOK IT UP.
If you have read my blog for as long as you have, bd, and still don't see the myriad ways I've shown Obama's a socialist, there's no hope.
And I DON'T GET IT?

my gosh

Kid said...

Z, Yes, many more people died in the "oBAMa' Tennessee floods, and FEMA never went there and the MSM never talked about it.

nicrap said...
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nicrap said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Liberalmann said...

Z said..."Libman,MY GOD, if you don't think Obama's moving toward socialism, GO BACK TO SCHOOL or CONSULT YOUR DICTIONARY."

Still deleting my post (3 times now) when I ask a simple question to show me what you mean by this inane statement.

Thersites said...

I wasn't thinking precisely along those lines, but you've certainly given us all some food for thought.