Monday, April 27, 2009

"Godless Europe...?" By Mr. Z

Religion on the Line

How the Left destroys the very foundation of our countries


When I grew up in Germany, one of the compulsory subjects throughout my life as a pupil was religion, up to the baccalaureate at 2 hours per week, split into Catholics and Lutherans. We learned not only about specific religious values, but also about the history of our and other religions and the impact religion had on countries, including moral values and ethical behavior.

That has basically not changed in German schools. Until three years ago, that is, when the Senate of the German State of Berlin with its red-red government (Socialists and Die Linke – the remnants of the Eastern German Communist Party) decided that religion as a compulsory subject didn’t fit Berlin's multi-culti society any more and replaced it by a compulsory Ethics class, leaving the possibility for pupils to take a voluntary class in religion (which meant that practically nobody would take it because of an already demanding and tight schedule of work).


The German conservative and centrist parties, CDU and FDP, got enough signatures to stage a public referendum. They were supported by many prominent politicians (such as Angela Merkel) and other prominent public figures who wanted to keep religion in the schools. Financing the other side were the socialists, communists, unions and the like, spearheaded by the socialist homosexual Mayor of Berlin, Wowereit who, as the head of the red-red government, made it very difficult for the „Pro Reli“ coalition to succeed. The Senate used taxpayer money to counter this attempt to reintroduce religion as a subject (a court ultimately disallowed that), and set the date in a way which made it unlikely that the referendum would succeed (instead of setting it at the same date as the upcoming elections for the European Parliament which would get many more voters out, of course). So, the referendum failed on two accounts: (1) Pro Religion reached only 48.5% of the votes, and (2) because of low participation, they fell substantially short of the second requirement – 25% of all eligible voters.


But it is worth looking at another angle of the results: In the Western districts of Berlin, the participation was 41% and the approval rate for Pro Reli was 60%. In the Eastern parts of Berlin, the participation was only a little more than 20%, and the disapproval rate of Pro Reli was 77%.


Here is what that means: While the Western part upheld conventional values, the Eastern part refused those overwhelmingly. The difference is the fact that these people have been indoctrinated by 40+ years of the Communists. These are the same people who, according to recent polls, still believe that the GDR (East Germany) was not so bad after all, and still vote for the Communists. As a consequence, it can be said that the Christian heritage of Germany and the corresponding moral values had been more or less completely wiped out there by the Communist regime of East Germany.


This referendum showed exactly what to expect in the future: The socialists and communists are giving up any notion of a privileged situation of a country because of the benefits of its Christian heritage (or Judeo-Christian heritage as it's rightfully called here in the U.S.). Everything is watered down, leaving a lowest denominator situation so that nobody „is hurt“. It also shows how long it takes to negate the effect of communist indoctrination.


Look at Berlin to know what is going to happen to other countries where the Left is so busy at work............by Mr Z

98 comments:

Anonymous said...

Interesting Z. One would almost think the wall that held people in, should have been left up to keep them out. Now they're poised to despoil West Germany.

How quickly they forget their past misfortunes, and slip right back into the bonds that kept them prisoners. Their minds are still behind that wall. Amazing.

Pris

elmers brother said...

A warning.

Z said...

you got it, Elbro.

Pris, Their minds ARE still behind that wall...many of their minds, anyway. We saw a panel discussion a few years back "Well, it was good to sit and do without...knowing we could talk in the cafes and discuss REAL things, weighty things, not be so devoted to the Western excess." Ya, I guess you can't talk about 'real things' if you've got enough money in your pocket WHICH YOU EARNED to buy yourself dinner, huh? man.

Funny, "Anything goes" these days....except Christian faith.

I have a saying I made up a few years back "When ANYTHING GOES, EVERYTHING goes"........I think it's right.
(it's also one of my favorite things to sing! 'Anything Goes" of course!)

dmarks said...

East Germany had its own compulsory religion: strong atheism.

Anonymous said...

Good point dmarks! Look, we all understand the need for free and open elections, but should communism EVER be allowed on the ballot?

Morgan

Always On Watch said...

We learned not only about specific religious values, but also about the history of our and other religions and the impact religion had on countries, including moral values and ethical behavior.In other words, the cultural values of Western civilization.c

Ducky's here said...

Your religion can't stand on its own? You need compulsory indoctrination?

Anonymous said...

Right ducky...

The results one generates through an "absence of culture" are just as easy to obtain as through a "culture".... NOT.

Of COURSE it requires compulsory indoctination!

You think a lion in the wild would perform the same tricks as a tamed circus lion???

You remove the training and expect the culture to remain the same?

This from a film propagandist...

*shakes head*

Anonymous said...

This from "the LEFT" who OWN the school systems through the teachers unions, and are trying to force our kids into their indoctrination camps starting at even earlier ages...

Rita Loca said...

Interesting insight. One we should heed!
Z, could you email me? The address I have keeps bouncing back.

Anonymous said...

The German University model was first introduced into the United States via Johns Hopkins University. It quickly spread throughout the country. The German Model differed from previous 'ancient' universities in that they emphasized "research" and the "production" of knowledge instead of emphasizing "scholarship" and the retention/ preservation/ dissemination of knowledge. And therein lies ALL the difference.

This has made it very important to the STATE to control the curriculums and fashion the educated elites into "state tools" through state financing.

I highly recommend that those concerned with education read Nietzsche's essays concerning the future of our educational institutions.

Ducky's here said...

This from a film propagandist...

--------------------

Right wingers can't make films? Well, they can't but that's a different issue.

Culture today has no ideological base. The fools that go on about "left wing" Hollywood are either asleep or simple right wing ventriloquist's dummies.

Today's culture is focused on a number of things such as vicarious indulgence of the American males impotence but it is hardly ideological. Unless you consider keeping the culture asleep to be a political act and that is a question worth exploring.

If people don't have spiritual values or don't care about them it's because they are to damn lazy to get out of the damn malls and think of themselves as something but consumers.

Z said...

Ducky's here said...
"Your religion can't stand on its own? You need compulsory indoctrination?"

You kidding, Ducky? The LEFT's philosophies apparently can't stand on their own, either, because "compulsory indoctrination" is surely what's going on in America today; media, universities, middle schools.

Check out this:
http://amboytimes.typepad.com/the_amboy_times/

Z said...

FJ..Sorry, hadn't got down to reading YOUR comment and just wrote the exact same thing.
Good job!! (on your part!)

Z said...

"The fools that go on about "left wing" Hollywood are either asleep or simple right wing ventriloquist's dummies."

Anyone who doesn't see LEFT WING Hollywood's constant serving of left wing rhetoric/philosophies isn't conscious or has an ideology so close minded that it won't allow seeing what one's own side does.
my gosh. AT LEAST most people know THAT's a given..I'd suggest Andrew Breitbart's BIG HOLLYWOOD BLOG but then you'd just say that's RIGHTWING'...can't have ANY, not a SHRED of truth/reality in it, though it's written by some of the best and brightest IN Hollywood. (Yes, Hollywood's getting its act together. Decent Hollywood, you'll be surprised. Trust me.)

Anonymous said...

Culture today has no ideological base.

Right, the COUNTER-culture is NOT an idealogical base... how silly of me to assume it was.

If it "feels good, DO IT!" is NOT an "ideological base"...

Anonymous said...

If people don't have spiritual values or don't care about them it's because they are to damn lazy to get out of the damn malls and think of themselves as something but consumers....

If only they WERE in the malls instead of sitting on their FAT *sses watching PBS/ C-SPAN propaganda.

Ducky's here said...

Anyone who doesn't see LEFT WING Hollywood's constant serving of left wing rhetoric/philosophies isn't conscious or has an ideology so close minded that it won't allow seeing what one's own side does.

---------------------------

Give some examples? And I mean the film product, not the celebrity chatter.

"Hollywood" just pushes product. Maybe you have Will Smith confused with Chris Marker (look him up).

Ducky's here said...

Well Farmer, there may have been a counter culture years ago but now? It's just another freakin' brand.

The 60's are over and they weren't all that either.

Z said...

you're joking...I haven't any time now, but let me just direct you to most George Clooney films, any film dealing with the Christian faith, Ron Howard's ridiculous new film....

Or, just watch the Oscars. it's painful, but pretty obvious. Man, talk about shooting too many apples in the water. Subtle, not so subtle; we're constantly assaulted, but you wouldn't notice, Ducky, and this is NOT a slam, it's just the truth. It's not easy to see the stuff when you're in agreement with it. So, why bother to discuss this, really?

Anonymous said...

According to the World Fact Book, German Christians comprise 68% of the population, evenly split between Protestant and Catholic, while twenty-eight percent of the population is counted as non-aligned or other religious preferences, with 4% Muslim. While the Christians may be willing to reevaluate traditional values, you can bet your bottom dollar that Muslims will not. This is a game of attrition over time and the topic goes directly to the issue of social cognition: What do you believe, and why do you believe it? For the most part, that portion of society well steeped in Judeo-Christian tradition is willing to allow individuals to choose their own path. It follows our belief in “free will,” and on that basis alone, it is difficult to criticize the ungodly communist who is exercising free will. The problem, it seems to me, is that over some period of time citizens who develop complacency toward biblical values offer themselves up as easy targets to Islamic zealots on the one hand, and social hedonists on the other. One hundred years from now, citizens throughout Western Europe may be wringing their hands and wondering, “What happened to us?”

Z said...

You're so right, Mustang.
In England, it's said that Prince Charles regards himself as the KEEPER OF FAITH..not the KEEPER OF THE FAITH..Huge difference. And I believe that sums it up pretty well.

Ducky's here said...

For the most part, that portion of society well steeped in Judeo-Christian tradition is willing to allow individuals to choose their own path.

-------------------------

You don't have the power to do anything else.

In fact you would be hard pressed to describe a time in the second have of the century when you could. This idea of "Judeo-Christian" values is a right wing line that is actually relatively recent. It has it's origins in Buckley's "God and Man at Yale" but never reached any ideological prominence until the 80's and quickly flamed out and died with Chucklenuts Bush.

Didn't have much of a shelf life. Myself, I think its primary failing is a complete inability to uncouple economics from culture but it's a fertile topic.
Creativity will always kill mindless rote repetition which is why the literalist far right ideology is incapable of producing anything resembling a vibrant culture. It's spiritually dead.

Z said...

http://amboytimes.typepad.com/the_amboy_times/

Check that out, just in case you missed my comment further up with this link.

It's important. And no, it's not a rarity, it's just that it was more blatant. Nice to see young kids, libs and cons, who get the picture.

Ducky's here said...

George Clooney, z? Ron Howard?

What you demonstrate is the well observed fact that what the far right objects to is anything that doesn't toe their party line.

I still don't get Clooney. Other than Syriana he hasn't been involved in much. Ocean's 12 is socialist propaganda? Leatherheads?

You do have a point with the Howrd's "da Vinci code" films to some extent. This culture is so brain dead that a large number (and I mean large) thought that whole thing was non fiction.

Z said...

No, Ducky, it's not true. Tell us again how any Buckley book had a short shelf life!?? HEH
Oh, SURE, universities might not reference to it anymore, but that's not HIS fault, that's the indoctrination mantra. Like Google's stopped referring to Frontpagemag as they used to...you notice? yup.

No, by living better lives, uplifted lives, we show our kids what's better. but, I know, suddenly 'better' is only MY IDEA OF BETTER!
Everything is relative, right? wrong. In a dangerous confused world that's true...
Yes, there are bads and goods, as much as some people hate to admit it.

Here's an example of a dangerous confused world :

http://cubanology.com/cubareport/?p=1378

I highly recommend it to all of you here.....suddenly bad is good and good is bad.
We can't stand up for OURSELVES because the left's weakened us so badly, made laughing stocks and insulted..US

As I've said a hundred times....we've got a group which thought the Iraq war spawned MORE TERRORISTS and now feels exposing CIA memos and the ILLUSTRATIONS of those memos is a GREAT idea that WON'T! AND, believes that if we're NICE, they'll be NICE!

Dangerous...a good example stupidity developed in schools which teach EVERYBODY'S NICE...oy, brother.

see you all later. Fight amongst yourselves!

Z said...

I explained why you wouldn't be able to see it, Ducky.
You didn't let me down.

later

elmers brother said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
elmers brother said...

I highly recommend it to all of you here.....suddenly bad is good and good is bad.The Bible speaks of a time when good will become evil and evil good.

Brooke said...

Mustn't offend... The Islamists, I'll bet!

cube said...

A word to the wise is sufficient. We should all be up at arms over these creeping changes to our country, unfortunately, many people never bother reading history and are, thus, condemned to repeat it.

Ducky's here said...

No, Ducky, it's not true. Tell us again how any Buckley book had a short shelf life!?? HEH

-----------------------

If a hard core indoctrinated leftist like myself has read it and is aware of the debate that goes on around it even today, what does that say about indoctrination?

Next thing you know I'll find out you and mustang have started a book circle and are reading Galbraith's "The New Industrial State", right?
Well, I'm exaggerating there.

elmers brother said...

Is duhkkky suggesting that the left is okay with open intellectual inquiry?

bwahahahaha

Ducky's here said...

As I've said a hundred times....we've got a group which thought the Iraq war spawned MORE TERRORISTS and now feels exposing CIA memos and the ILLUSTRATIONS of those memos is a GREAT idea that WON'T! AND, believes that if we're NICE, they'll be NICE!

-----------------------

Huh?

You've got two groups. One feels that torture violates out values.
The other is so irrationally frightened of Muslims that they don't care about our values.

You deny your own thesis.

Ducky's here said...

Yes, just that Elmer.

As I said, I have read Buckley's books. Can't find anything to agree with but I have read them and considered them. I don't advocate they go out of print or be taken out of classrooms.

But the thing is ... I'm not an evangelical so I don't have the anchor of literal truth to carry around and I am free to reason.

Bloviating Zeppelin said...

It's not a shocker to read those persons inculcated by years and years of GDR thought find it difficult to conceive of another way of life, so to speak. Just as many Russians would like to go back to the days of the USSR -- and we all know that Putin takes as GREAT an advantage of that as possible.

BZ

Joe said...

Pris: The Israelites, having been delivered from Egypt (via Charlton Heston...remember?), very soon started complaining that they had been better off in slavery.

Such is the bent of humanity.

elmers brother said...

As I said, I have read Buckley's books. Can't find anything to agree with but I have read them and considered them.Then you should talk to your academic brethren duhkkky.

Anonymous said...

As I said, I have read Buckley's books. Can't find anything to agree with but I have read them and considered them. I don't advocate they go out of print or be taken out of classrooms.And I've read Herbert Marcuse, found a LOT to disagree with (and surprise surprise, the progressive New Left is acting 100% in ACCORD with his recommendations), and he's going to make sure that no one gets the opportunity to experience anything OTHER than counter-culture for a long, LONG time.

There is going to be another dark ages ala Asimov's "Foundation" series. Only we're not operating on the "Seldon Plan" to save it, we're operating on the "Marcuse Plan" to bring "The Mule" to power and forever destroy it.

elmers brother said...

One feels that torture violates out values.and one has distorted the meaning of torture to make us believe we've lost our way.

CJ said...

Sadly, it has been the deterioration of true Christian life and teaching in the West at large since at least the 19th century that is the real cause of the cultural collapse. Simply teaching dry Christian ethics and culture has no sustaining power in a culture. Christianity is supernatural and can't be reduced to culture. When it has an impact on culture it's when it is blazing with counter-cultural siritual power, not only declaring but demonstrating the supernatural power of God. It hasn't done that in the West for at least two centuries, and probably all the way back to the Pietists and Anabaptists in Northern Europe and the Great Awakening just before the American Revolution on this side of the world.

elmers brother said...

or having sex only a few times while still married and claiming to still be adhering to church tenets?

elmers brother said...

I'm not an evangelical so I don't have the anchor of literal truth to carry around and I am free to reason.That's just it Duhkkky without truth you have no anchor.

Anonymous said...

"You've got two groups. One feels that torture violates out values.
The other is so irrationally frightened of Muslims that they don't care about our values."

Ducky, You believe we subject our own troops to torture? Nothing has been done to high value enemy combatants that hasn't been done to our own troops, by our own military.

You don't care any more than anyone else does about those butchers, you care about getting your pound of flesh from Bush and Cheney, and to hell with protecting this country.

If you were living in NY city would you have stayed in a high rise building yesterday when the idiots in the administration had a low flying photo op followed by two fighter jets?
Seems to me the people who got out of those buildings were doing what was rational.

But of course we all know if something hasn't happened to you, it hasn't happened.

""Hollywood" just pushes product."

Well Ducky, I guess Big Hollywood missed the boat when they panned The Passion, and wouldn't touch it. They didn't seem to want to "push that product". I believe that Christian "product" pulled in six hundred million dollars.

Pris

Z said...

Ducky, just wondering here if you think reading Howard Zinn as required reading and no conservative thought is a good thing?

And, tell me again how the left could possibly consider going to war not good because it might make more enemies, but that our exposing our throwing water up somebody's nose as a tool to promote terrorists to start loving us and backing off?

or do you seriously think there is no terrorism?

Ducky's here said...

Gee I don't know, z. Zinn is fine and I'm too busy trying to shut down the Chicago school of economics.

Ducky's here said...

Well Ducky, I guess Big Hollywood missed the boat when they panned The Passion, and wouldn't touch it. They didn't seem to want to "push that product". I believe that Christian "product" pulled in six hundred million dollars.

------------------------

So you like homoerotic sadomasochism. Fine, I don't advocate censorship.

Z said...

Ducky, are you purposefully missing everyone's points? it's the weirdest game you're playing.

man You can't answer ONE QUESTION...

Anonymous said...

Important Facts

1. We can always rely on Mr. Z to write a stimulating essay.

2. We can guarantee that any essay on the subject of religion will result in a massive explosion of duck turds.

3. Actual data allows us to formulate the “Rule of Two.” This rule concludes that no more than two percent of all duck turds are worthy of consideration beyond two-seconds.

Anonymous said...

"So you like homoerotic sadomasochism. Fine, I don't advocate censorship."

My, my, Ducky, did I touch a nerve? A little hyper sensitive aren't you Ducky?

Pris

Ducky's here said...

Ducky, are you purposefully missing everyone's points? it's the weirdest game you're playing.

man You can't answer ONE QUESTION...

-----------------------------

I was being kind. I didn't go out of my way to point out that with some six hundred million in box office it is quite reasonable to see "Passion" as product.

If you look at it critically then it is just another entry in Gibson's series of films seeing redemption as only possible through serious physical pain.
Now that can very easily be interpreted as a sadomasochistic (you be the judge on homoerotic) theme.

So as usual, I answer.

Ducky's here said...

or do you seriously think there is no terrorism?

----------------------------

What does that have to do with the decline of religion in Europe or the supposed indoctrination in American colleges?

And nice ad hominem, mustang. Been a while since you put anyone on the mat, hasn't it?

Z said...

that's what I meant....you're avoiding the points.
Suddenly, YOU're not happy that a comment doesn't apply to the post!? !!

THE PASSION is now just Hollywood fodder because it did well?

Your comment regarding pain and redemption's so uninformed and loathsome I'm not answering...you have to be joking.

Re: "Supposed" indoctrination..did you see the video link I posted?
No. I didn't think so.

Thanks, Ducky. perfect. :-)

Ducky's here said...

THE PASSION is now just Hollywood fodder because it did well?

---------------------------------

Fodder, it was quite widely seen and opened on several hundred screens. Hardly fodder.

However, it has a distinct bit in common with:

The Mad Max series
Lethal Weapon series
Braveheart
The Patriot
... and a number of other films. Sadomasochism is a theme of his. Can you deny it?

Anonymous said...

Yes, I deny it. The point isn't sadomasochism for sexual gratification. The point is that suffering strengthens the "values" (aka- worth) of the objects one suffers for AND sexual gratification is NO human value, it's an innate instinct.`

*as mr. ducky's anchor slowly drifts upon the slippery ocean bottom of "will to power" instincts.

Anonymous said...

May it one day snag on Peter's rock...

dmarks said...

duck: "This idea of "Judeo-Christian" values is a right wing line that is actually relatively recent"

OH... was Dr. King a rightwinger, then?

Z said...

Ducky: "Sadomasochism is a theme of his. Can you deny it?"

I don't consider Braveheart sadomasochism and I am not familiar with the rest of the films you mention.

If you're implying that THE PASSION, too, is sadomasochism, I'd like to deny that stronger than I'd ever deny anything. For the record:

No, I DO NOT believe that Christ's suffering as he did and dying on the cross has an iota of sadomasochism. Frankly, I hope you didn't mean to include that in the list.

FJ "May it one day snag on Peter's rock..." cleverly said. Beautiful.

Dmarks...how many more?
Ya, Dr. King. But, WAIT! Why go THAT far back? I THOUGHT OBAMA WAS A CHURCH GOING CHRISTIAN? He SAID that, DIDN'T HE?
OH, he's only gone on Easter since the inauguration and nobody in the media's ocmmented on that? No "Hey, some of us have covered the new president's first church day at his new D.C. church since moving into the WH for 30 YEARS!...you know, the walking up to the doors with a bible in your hand and Hillary's hand in the other (or Pat's, or Barbara's, or Laura's?), shaking hands with the pastor at the door, etc., and Obama didn't DO THAT...now THAT's FUNNY!?" (silence from the non-agenda-drive media, RIGHT?)

Must just be an oversight, huh? (not)

Anonymous said...

"What does that have to do with the decline of religion in Europe or the supposed indoctrination in American colleges?"

Ah Ducky, the old bait and switch. Do you leftists learn this in a special class for left wingers?

A handy tool when you don't want to answer someone. You're not very good at it you know.

Your attempt at amateur psychoanalysis isn't very good either.

Pris

Anonymous said...

mr. ducky does NOT call himself "ducky" for no reason. His purpose is to ask questions that cause you to doubt YOUR faith, not answer questions in support of his own.

Anonymous said...

Sadomasochism has sexual gratification as it's "end."

Christ did not suffer for sexual gratification. Neither did William Wallace. Mr. ducky would have you confuse your nobler values for base ones like lust and sexual gratification.

That's not very nice nor intellectually honest, is it ducky?

Anonymous said...

Well said Mr. Z.

It's what is happen right across the western world. Christianity is the main obstacle to the left and their morally bankrupt ideology. So they do everything they can to undermine and expel it.

Z said...

MK...important point there...In my opinion, it's a concerted effort to slam CHristianity. Remember the films of the forties where the digs first started? SO subtle...then cartoons, jokes, etc...."those pitch fork types" "Hellfire and damnation" (As IF any of us has heard a sermon like that? Actually we should hear more, but I digress..!!), the 'backwards' thinking of people who don't allow their children to get drunk at 18 and encourage their kids to wait till marriage to have have sex ...all those messages we started getting about 40 years ago now.

All aimed at exactly this goal: Make Christians look bad.

Then, following Alinsky, if CHristian speak UP, they're "Nuts" "rightwing kooks" ...

And, let ONE PASTOR do something awful, and ALL CHRISTIANS are bad by inference.

But, let a muslim behead.............

Anonymous said...

You coffee-drinking bourgesoie who would loose sight of the differences between your "ends" and "means" are easy pickings for one who would dissimulate gold for dross.

Anonymous said...

Gepetto, our would be puppet-master has fled the scene.

Must be getting near migration time, eh, ducky?...

Law and Order Teacher said...

Z,
Sorry to get in on the end of this scintilating discussion. I have been digging out from under an avalanche of student assignments. Who assigns all this stuff anyway?

I think your column, Mr.Z, has the value of a real life example of the power of decadence found in communism. It is very easy to lie about depending on government intervention, but the lack of creative thinking leads to brain atrophy. Total reliance on government is brain-addling.

I think it is interesting to note that all those films ducky claims to love, come from former East European satellite countries. Once freed from government oppression the creativity again flowed. Just a thought. Nice article. Great points.

Ducky's here said...

All aimed at exactly this goal: Make Christians look bad.

-------------------------

z, when you call yourself a "Christian" and simultaneously call the homeless, "bums", then you do plenty yourself to make your brand of Christianity look bad.

Physician, heal thyself.

Ducky's here said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ducky's here said...

Also z, if you study Renaissance art you discover that only one nation's art focused that exclusively on the physical suffering of Christ. Germany.

Let that take you where it will.


And when I refer to sadomasochism I am referring to GIBSON'S treatment of the subject. After all, it is a film , correct? Don't confuse it with literal truth.

elmers brother said...

Don't confuse it with literal truch.Yeah because then it makes sense.

elmers brother said...

z, when you call yourself a "Christian" and simultaneously call the homeless, "bums",Where did Z do this Strawman?

Ducky's here said...

Elmer, z has stated that the homeless are in fact bums.

Now, your apparent contention that a film can be object truth is an example of why there are so few good conservative film makers. It isn't and it can't be. Are you going to say that Gibson didn't provide his personal points of emphasis?

elmers brother said...

It isn't and it can't be. Are you going to say that Gibson didn't provide his personal points of emphasis?It's much biggert than the film duhkkky, I think that's Z's point...but....of course the film had his influence etc....

Some homeless people are bums....is that not the truth?

Illegal aliens have broken the law.

Don't look now Duhkkky your moral relativism is showing again.

elmers brother said...

duhkkky anyone that has an opinion will have some inconsistencies...the point I was trying to make but...nevertheless....

conservatives are the bad guys....go on with your bad self.

elmers brother said...

duhkkky anyone that has an opinion will have some inconsistencies...the point I was trying to make but...nevertheless....

conservatives are the bad guys....go on with your bad self.

Anonymous said...

Ducky AGAIN refuses to draw the proper Christian distinction between the DESERVING and UNDESERVING poor. Christians do everything they can to help those who are POOR THOUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN (widows/orphans), and encourage those who are POOR THROUGH THE INDULGENCE OF THEIR OWN FAULTS (drug addicts/ slothful idiots) to reform. And unless the latter are properly chastised, (which our secular friends refuse to do), they will WALLOW IN THEIR OWN CRAPULENCE and vote "Democrat" for the rest of their worthless, self-destructive lives. And worse, they'll encourage ALL others to hitch a free ride and mommy Democratic government.

Anonymous said...

Mr. ducky is perfectly aware of this distinction we 'conservatives' make. Yet he continues to deliberately attempt to count verbal coups in the court of public opinion with people who are to "slow" to draw the proper distinction.

Intellectual dishonesty, thy name is mr. ducky.

Anonymous said...

...and please ducky, the ends sought through sadomasochism are SEXUAL, not "redemptive". You know that. Redemption "transforms" and "metamoorphisizes" bahavior. Sexual gratification "perpetuates" behaviors and makes them "obsessive".

One rejects animal instincts, the other reinforces it.

Disingenuous mr. ducky. Disengenuous.

Z said...

Good morning, everybody.

Oh, yes, I absolutely have referred to some homeless as bums and I have always tried to remember to qualify that. Ducky, I'm so sorry that you extrapolate to pad your cause but that's a weak one and your arguments really shouldn't need that, should they.

I'm the FIRST person to say some homeless are BUMS. As I've said at least five times here, "when someone's offered a roof over his head and three square meals a day for only 3 hours of community work" (As they do here in Santa Monica) and he turns it down, "Homelessness" is his CHOICE and he's a bum. he's a person who can't bring himself to suck it up and do something for the community to EARN HIS KEEP. But, that's the Republican way of looking at it.
When the Dems had their way here, they loved having bums all over the park (homeless here are usually families and are in good shelters, which I highly approve of, that IS the Christian way) and those bums were sometimes disruptive and even dangerous and Santa Monicans had to give up their lovely sunset walks for fear of being accosted.
That stopped now when they finally got tough, realized the bums were the problem, and threatened them with laws which finally keep them out of the park except during the day when a few come and enjoy the sun. They used to serve sandwiches at the park; since that stopped, less bums. They know where to get food other than the places families go with their children.
Oh, yes....some homeless are bums, NO doubt about that. Thanks for allowing me, yet AGAIN, to describe that distinction, though I have nearly every time I've mentioned it.

Ducky, I won't 'go there' with German Renaissance art...mostly because I don't see how dwelling on Christ's suffering by Renaissance painters could mean anything but how much that affected them; the beauty of His suffering for us cannot be underscored enough, nor can it be respected or honored, or appreciated enough.Not in a million years which, of course, is the whole point. Good for the German Renaissance painters! And, of course, the other nationalities who also painted his suffering so beautifully.

The Catholic church is about the only church which mostly depicts Christ's experience on the cross with him still ON it, hanging, suffering. I don't consider that German-esque (whatever you were trying to make that mean, good try!?) I just know that Protestants have the 'revealed' Cross...the cross with Christ gone, like the one I wear, a very thin, simply gold cross, no Christ. We all know He died and rose again and my Christ-less cross represents his sacrifice for us.

you don't believe the Catholics with their CHrist ON the cross have some other meaning you were attempting to hang on the Germans, do you? That would be sad.

Ducky's here said...

Farmer, why do you assume sexual release was not part of Gibson's intent?

Ducky's here said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ducky's here said...

Farmer, so just why did Gibson compose the torture scene in "Braveheart".

Historically the film is utter rot and we know much of it was not part of the historic record so just why the fascination with physical torture and pain?

This occurs throughout his work. Only the physical suffering makes things so.

Ducky's here said...

...the cross with Christ gone, like the one I wear, a very thin, simply gold cross, no Christ. We all know He died and rose again and my Christ-less cross represents his sacrifice for us.

--------------------------

Yet you are fascinated by Gibson's film.

Gibson the anti-Semite and the Catholic who thinks all doctrine after Vatican II is apostate.

Not that I believe it was Gibson's intent but why were such large audiences drawn to a film that featured so much physical degradation? Why this version of biblical truth, or was it exaggerated for expressionistic purpose?

Ducky's here said...

Gibson reviewed on "Beliefnet" ""The Passion of the Christ" is a celebration of the bloody suffering of Jesus, a fundamentalist interpretation by a man who rejects the Vatican Council. It is not, contrary to claims, a literal interpretation of St. John's Gospel but is based on the "revelations" of a 19th-century mystic. It is a film about torture, legitimated because it is the torture of Jesus. "Passion" is a glorification of sadomasochism."

Anonymous said...

Farmer, why do you assume sexual release was not part of Gibson's intent?Because Wallace's dedication to Scottish liberty was non-sexual and his beloved was deceased.

Anonymous said...

Not that I believe it was Gibson's intent but why were such large audiences drawn to a film that featured so much physical degradation? Why this version of biblical truth, or was it exaggerated for expressionistic purpose?For what purpose did Christ sacrifice His body, and for what purpose does a masochist sacrifice his body?

I think you'll find them to be polar opposites. That you identify with the values exhibitted through the latter purpose and cannot distinguish the two comes as no surprise to me.

Anonymous said...

Gibson reviewed on "Beliefnet" The movie reviewer on "Beliefnet" is the ultimate authority on Christianity? Who knew. Somebody better inform the Pope.

Ducky's here said...

As an aside to Gibson and his "Passion of the Christ". It was influenced by a book by Anna Katharina Emmerick, "The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ".
Emmerick was German and was beatified for among other things living the last ten years of her nourished solely by the Eucharist and receiving the stigmata.
It's a Catholic thing, but it should be said that this was Gibson's inspiration and not so much the Gospel. Mel holds to an extreme mystical sect of Catholicism.

His source for Braveheart is unknown but appears to be primarily his imagination as very little of it is historically accurate.

Anonymous said...

Go f' yourself ducky. Since when have you ever lent such scrutiny to the historical accuracy of a film from the Left.

Answer: Never.

Sow doubt... that's all your trying to do... and pretend you've sounded out and discovered Gibson's intentions in making the film. What, isn't MONEY good enough for you?

Z said...

Ducky, thanks..I can relax when you bring up the anti-semitism...I actually thought that, soon, you'd make a point worth consideration and response and was reading your comments for that; now I know you're just running scared again and pulling out this stuff which makes not a wit of difference to the film THE PASSION.

You said "Yet you are fascinated by Gibson's film." I AM? How's that? I've seen it exactly ONCE.
The film was fine...it's the real story I'm fascinated about and seeing it illustrated was moving and inspiring. I'm "fascinated" by the film? WOW, who knew?

You'd have to know Gibson to know where his heart is. I don't.
As for vat. II, I no interest or comment.

YOu ask "Not that I believe it was Gibson's intent but why were such large audiences drawn to a film that featured so much physical degradation? Why this version of biblical truth, or was it exaggerated for expressionistic purpose?"

Is this a joke? You think Christians from all over the world went to that film by the millions because they like to see suffering? Talk about a perverted extrapolation!

I'm sorry if Christ's brutal, bloody death was too much for you, Ducky. But, I know He isn't. No matter what "version" of the bible you prefer.

Z said...

I'll just add that I'm sorry this discussion went in a direction other than the intent of the piece, which I think is a cautionary tale and worthwhile having talked about.

I welcome Off Topic Discussion..there's almost NO discussion I don't appreciate and look forward to at geeeeZ, and I thank you ALL ofr it, but this was something we need to heed. The conclusion at the end is being ignored in America.

Ducky's here said...

I'm sorry if Christ's brutal, bloody death was too much for you, Ducky. But, I know He isn't. No matter what "version" of the bible you prefer.

---------------------------
As a boy I watched my mother take two years to go with liver cancer at age 38.

Christ had it easy

Anonymous said...

Victim card?

Ducky, that is soooo beneath you.

My mother went with pancreatic cancer at age 47. I would never compare her suffering to that of Christ.

All of your taste of late, lies in your mouth.

Anonymous said...

His was a Willful sacrifice, hers was not. Unless of course you blame Him for it, and if you do, then perhaps her death wasn't entirely meaningless.

Anonymous said...

btw - Does bringing up your mother's suffering and painful death mean you're into S&M? Just curious.

Anonymous said...

Just sucking more melencholy like a weasel sucks an egg.

My apologies for diving to the very depths of poor taste. But you can't plumb depths by staring at reflections on the water's surface.

Z said...

FJ...it borderlines poor taste but you make such good points based on Ducky's previous comments that you had to do it.

I'm VERY sorry about a young man losing his mother to a terrible death at such a young age...I can't IMAGINE what you two went through watching your mothers die in such pain.

But, to compare ANY of that to the suffering of Christ deserved a little reality check.
Yes, he chose it, FJ,...and, worse than pain (please, God, may I NEVER FEEL THAT physically or spiritually), he felt separated from GOD, His FATHER.....for days. And, he'd been humiliated to the last second but, in that unbelievable pain where every breath was torture, he gave Paradise to a man hanging there next to him only for saying 'remember me'.......

The word EXCRUTIATING comes from OF THE CROSS.

Anonymous said...

Ducky always seems to divine and attribute ill will and bad intentions to others, yet deliberately ignores same when treating his own. He must think himself a noble above scrutiny Even a clown can detect his frequent error...

Shakespeare, "Hamlet"

First Clown: Is she to be buried in Christian burial that wilfully seeks her own salvation?

Second Clown: I tell thee she is: and therefore make her grave straight: the crowner hath sat on her, and finds it Christian burial.

First Clown: How can that be, unless she drowned herself in her own defence?

Second Clown: Why, 'tis found so.

First Clown: It must be 'se offendendo;' it cannot be else. For here lies the point: if I drown myself wittingly, it argues an act: and an act hath three branches: it is, to act, to do, to perform: argal, she drowned herself wittingly.Second Clown: Nay, but hear you, goodman delver,--

First Clown: Give me leave. Here lies the water; good: here stands the man; good; if the man go to this water, and drown himself, it is, will he, nill he, he goes,--mark you that; but if the water come to him and drown him, he drowns not himself: argal, he that is not guilty of his own death shortens not his own life.

Second Clown: But is this law?

First Clown: Ay, marry, is't; crowner's quest law.

Second Clown: Will you ha' the truth on't? If this had not been a gentlewoman, she should have been buried out o' Christian burial.

First Clown: Why, there thou say'st: and the more pity that great folk should have countenance in this world to drown or hang themselves, more than their even Christian. Come, my spade. There is no ancient gentleman but gardeners, ditchers, and grave-makers: they hold up Adam's profession.