Monday, April 26, 2010

A new Priscilla's Post........Republicans, put up or shut up

It's time for the GOP to put up or shut up. This is a suggestion from a Reagan conservative who is aware of the fact that while, from a distance, the GOP is enjoying the benefits from the Tea Party grassroots movement, it plays a risky game of recruiting moderate Republicans. While conservative Republicans like Rubio, Toomey, DeVore, and Lt. Col. Allen West, are enjoying the support of the conservative Republican base, the entrenched Republican guard and power brokers of the party are working at cross purposes.

It seems to be that the Republican Party has forgotten the Reagan credo of, "to think in bold colors, not pale pastels". I would remind the party of Ronald Reagan that playing not to lose, instead of playing to win, is a losing game. At best, it is a weak and risky game.
A leader plays to win. A leader has a confident voice, stands for what's right, and speaks the truth. Right now in America, the truth is there is a voice from the American people speaking truth to power, if only those who purport to love our country and enjoy their position to make a difference will adhere to it.

That voice is loudly saying our freedoms are in jeopardy. The future of our children as unencumbered, free, autonomous individuals is in question. Will they begin their journey in America carrying the yoke of unthinkable debt left to them by their forebearers, or will they be
relieved of it by conservative, dedicated men and women who care more for their country, and their people, than they do for their political comforts.
We are at a crossroads and can no longer hope for the best. We have to make it happen. If the Republican Party is to be the instrument to push back the tide of corruption and power hungry interlopers, it must decide that it's fortunes are tied to ours. It must decide to do the right thing by the American people, and that is to lead this country out of the morass we find ourselves in. It's no longer good enough to play it safe with the right words while compromising our principles as Americans.
We have had enough of Democrat Lite. No more sitting on the fence with weak protestations. It's time to stand up and be counted or get out of the way. It's time for conservatives to rise up and take charge. Leadership is the key. People vote for winners. They will vote for positive, genuine Americans as opposed to strategists, tacticians, and disingenuous wordsmiths.
It's now or never Republicans, DO YOU HEAR US? Tomorrow may be too late.
Priscilla
Thanks, Pris........Amen to that.
z

65 comments:

Karen Howes said...

Totally agree, which is why I don't really pay attention to parties anymore.

beamish said...

This brings out one of my fundamental objections with Tea Party organization structure and a key hurdle between me and me actively supporting the Tea Party movement with active participation in its efforts.

"Put Up" or what? You'll endorse the son of Ron Paul? Is Ahmedinejad unavailable?

It's hard to be a back seat driver when you're not even in the car.

Get people elected, then make demands.

The Jersey Girl said...

Thank You!

Brooke said...

WE ARE SICK OF DEMOCRAT LITE!

YES!!!

How is a bunch of RHINOs any better than what we have now?

JINGOIST said...

FANTASTIC opinion piece Pris! As usual, you have the unique ability to channel (and organize :-) my thoughts. LOL! Z, you and your contributors make for some of the web's most interesting reading.

I agree with your opinion about the powers that be inside the Republican Party apparatus. I stopped being active within the party after the nomination of McCain, and they haven't seen a penny of my money because of their treachery.

Not too long ago the RPOFlorida endorsed Charlie Crist through his lackey Jim Greer. What the "eff" were they thinking!?

I am SICK OF THE RINOS!!

Now we also have to give credit where credit's due. Elected Republicans in DC have been magnificent in their opposition to Obama's ruinous agenda. Instead of supporting the Republican Party (which cannot be trusted) we need to support individual candidates who have earned our trust.

Send them money folks! That's the support they need. Michelle Bachmann comes to mind. Nancy Piglosi and the narrow-minded fascists on the left are targeting this amazing woman for defeat with everything they have. The same is true for Jim Demint and other true conservatives.

If we don't support them in ways that TRULY matter, then all of this is for naught anyways.


Beamish I understand your reservations with the Tea Party movement, but I find the upside to overwhelm the downside.

Recently I was involved with the Republican Liberty Caucus. I was taken in by their stated goal of bringing the republican party back to it's small government, libertarian roots. Hey, I'm ALL FOR that!

Sadly, there's far more to the RLC than a wish to return government to it's Constitutional roots. The "leader" of the local RLC chapter here in NE FL is a Ron Paul fanatic and a SEVERE Jew hating nut! No matter what people claim about their beliefs, I've always found it far more informative to watch what really motivates them.

This "leader" of our local RLC (Republican Liberty Caucus) posted a continuous string of anti "Zionist" articles and anti Israel propaganda from the C.A.I.R. website on his Facebook page. Here's the disheartening part: his RLC buddies (who I know) posted their approval and their "like" of those hateful articles. Needless to say we had a VERY loud argument and I left the group.

This shouldn't surprise me after the Republican debates during the last campaign. Ron Paul hissed the word "neocon" with far more anger than he ever reserved for the political left. When you search the "bowels" of the Libertarian websites it doesn't take long to discover the sub-surface Jew hatred.

How sad. Many of us truly want to fix the party from within with libertarian/small government principles.

Check your narrow-minded bigotry at the door!

Miss T.C. Shore said...

I agree. The Republicans have to MOVE to the right (to be consistent with their message) and LEAD from the right (meaning, provide conservative solutions to problems, not just opposing the Democrats). If they cannot remain firmly in the conservative camp, I will abstain from voting for that Republican candidate. To me, having a moderate Republican in an office is no better than having a typical Democrat in the same office.

FairWitness said...

Priscilla, this was a great column. I couldn't have said it better myself. Out with RINO's and Democrat Lite!

Morgan, I didn't know Ron Paul was an anti-Semite. I thought he was just a wacko protectionist/dove.

Did the idiots at the Florida RLC know you were Jewish? How many of these haters are working for the RNC? More importantly, how do we get them out?

You know, when Sarah Palin was being savaged, even by Republican elites, I wrote to then RNC Chairman Mike Duncan to demand that the RNC and prominent Republican leaders come to her vigorous and vociferous defense. Do you know that SOB never even answered me? I made him aware that we had been lifelong Republican Party members and contributors.

We haven't given dime one since to the RNC. Screw them! You're right about supporting individual candidates. Michelle Bachman is wonderful and I will make a contribution to her campaign, same with Jim DeMint and Marco Rubio.

Ducky's here said...

The "conservative Republican base" just ain't that large and its fragmented.

The number of people who agree with Glenn Beck that the correct governmental structure is mapped out in Deuteronomy right down to the maximum allowed precinct size is blessedly small.

... then you have the Ron Paul crazies in there and it's pretty ineffective. The base seems to feel that they can just wave the wand and make this deficit disappear and kill all the bad Muslims and find the perfect red heifer. Sheer delusion.

JINGOIST said...

FairWitness writes:

"Morgan, I didn't know Ron Paul was an anti-Semite. I thought he was just a wacko protectionist/dove."

All I can do is guess, but I'd bet my house on it. Nanette and I attended last year's "March For Liberty" at the Capitol in DC, and there was also a smattering of "Paulistas" at the protest. They were waving mainly three types of signs, "End the Fed" and anti-"Neocon" signs, as well as nutty "9-11 Was an Inside Job" posters.

They did this in front of the CNN and FoxNews cameras and brought discredit to everyone by making it appear that we were all wackos. I was furious! A small handful of NUTS inside a group of 4-5000 hogged up the cameras.

Polite company and mainstream America doesn't accept explicit Jew hatred or racism anymore. Thank G-d! As a result, your run of the mill anti-Semite is a bit more circumspect these days. They hate "Zionists", speak of dark conspiracies surrounding "New York Bankers" and blame America's terrorism on our "foreign entanglements", especially with Israel.

Sound familiar? Yep, there's a large contingent in libertarian thought whose view of foreign policy is no different than the far left, they blame America first!
In the Primary debates Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich were IDENTICAL on foreign policy. It was disgusting that neither had learned the lessons of 9-11.
Ron Paul even went as far as to blame our foreign policy and support of Israel for "enflaming" the Muslim world.

FW:
"Did the idiots at the Florida RLC know you were Jewish? How many of these haters are working for the RNC?"

No, frankly i didn't think religion was an important part of reining in an out-of-control government. Make no mistake, this saddens me. Other than the obvious derangements embedded in the Republican Liberty Caucus, I couldn't agree more with their STATED goal, "Returning government to it's Constitutional role."

Why isn't it possible to do that WITHOUT the petty hatreds and sheer LUNACY?!

FW: "More importantly, how do we get them out?"

That's the dilemma. The Republican Party NEEDS to hear the small government message in no uncertain terms, and the RLC is the loudest voice--outside of the Tea Party movement--whose making that case. Republicans also need their votes. The local Republican Party and the RLC have had some very loud spats recently, and are on shaky terms.

For now I'll do what I can to influence the R Party to be more conservative.

Z said...

Hi,Jingo, good to see you! You said "Ron Paul even went as far as to blame our foreign policy and support of Israel for "enflaming" the Muslim world."

This is one way I believe Americans 'can' show antiSemitism without showing bad feelings toward Jews here or in the ME. It's all Israel's fault and they can slam Israel without slamming Jews.

Now, I happen to believe one CAN believe Israel is wrong regarding real estate (I happen to support Israel, but there are some who make arguments against some stances of Israel) and still NOT be Anti Semitic, I know some people don't agree with me on that, but I do think that. Ron Paul might be one of those because he's never made any bones about being totally isolationist and, in his view, we need to leave the Middle East's problems to the Middle East...
But, how CAN you when the unfairness toward Israel and the immense threats which are only getting worse, are looming over her, our only ally in the ME and a friend for years?
Boy, it's a complicated situation.

FairWitness said...

Jingo: No, frankly i didn't think religion was an important part of reining in an out-of-control government.

Have you noticed the anti-Semitic nature of the recent charges leveled at Goldman Sachs? Breitbart's has a video posted, "Obama’s National Security Advisor Tells Joke Depicting Jews as Greedy Merchants"

http://www.breitbart.tv/obamas-national-security-advisor-tells-joke-depicting-jews-as-greedy-merchants

One commenter to the video posted claims this is an old, acceptable joke but the worst comment left
was this:

***
"Actually, making light of what J3ws do to countries is no laughing matter. Look at Bernanke or Goldman Sachs. They were destroying Germany in much the same way until they simply said “no” and quickly turned Germany in to a world superpower. We could do the same here if you would get over your perception Jews are somehow above reproach. Sounds like most already have. Just think how quickly we could turn things around if we weren’t paying “tribute” to Israel (for no good reason) and stopped fighting their wars for them in the Middle East! Gas prices would go down again and our economy would correct itself. Then we reject the J3w merchant’s BS of “Free Trade” and stop importing everything from elsewhere. All you have to do is stand up with your neighbors and say “no more!”
***

This is the opinion of the Radical Ruling Class in Washington DC? No wonder Obama has thrown Israel under the bus.

Since when is betting on market losses a Jewish plot to capitalize on American economic and mortgage failures? Seems to me hedge funds the world over, particularly in the Middle East (Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Saudi Arabia, UAE) & Russia, led to the market crash. Surely Jews aren't managing those hedge funds.

What the hell is this crap anyway? The resurgence of anti-Semitism/Israel sentiment arrived with the Obamas in the White House.

Seems that this is not related to party, is it?

FairWitness said...

BTW, Z & Jingo:

Prairieman posted that Breitbart article and video elsewhere and I shared it here. Wanted to credit the source of the discovery.

I think it was important for all to see.

Z said...

FW, "Seems that this is not related to party, is it?" Has a Republican politico said anything remotely this awful about Israel?? or are you being sarcastic ?!
You know, I also get this odd feeling when I watch the news and the left discusses Goldman Sachs, etc etc....they give off subtle suggestions that those huge companies are all Republicans and that is a HUGE misconception. I think it's hard for the dopes just out of university to grasp that their liberal buddies are even richer than Republicans and at least as involved with the Wall St trading and keeping our country running which is now called GREED.

Obama comes from the same school of thought; anybody with any money is GREEDY and Israel can't do anything right, even when they fight back against palistinians bombing their innocents.

To be fair, that hideous comment you pasted here isn't the WH, it's a commenter, but it's well worth reading the kind of disgust and nastiness some Americans show toward Israel, that's for sure.

Funny, just as I was typing, I got an email from the Jerusalem Prayer Team, which I believe is largely composed of Christians who work for Israel......one of the paragraphs is this by Michael Evans:
"I will request a meeting with my dear friend Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu while I am there. I want to tell him and the entire nation what you (z; the recipient of the email who sends money to this organization)did to bless Israel while the rest of the world is cursing them."

Amen. Keep Israel in your prayers, folks. God isn't happy with countries which take her protection.
if one of my commenters wants to argue that here, my blog isn't here to argue God, so you'll be ignored or deleted. I promise.

Z said...

FW, thanks, I really appreciate that! But, I only like to make sure people are credited if they actually WROTE the piece you paste or link here...

JINGOIST said...

Thank you ladies for your thought-provoking comments and insight. I'll watch that video a bit later, I gotta run...

FairWitness said...

Z, to clarify: in one of Jingo's earlier posts, he told of anti-Neocon (AS) folks heading the Florida chapter of the Republican Liberty Caucus and RonPaulistas that attended a rally he and his wife also attended. There are some members of the Republican Party who are anti-Israel. That's what I meant by it not being party specific.

What the hell would the Middle East be today without Israel? They're such a force for good in this world. I hate to see this hatred rearing its very ugly head.

As for the crediting of the Breitbart video and comment, I thought it only fair to let you know I was sharing information learned from a 3rd party, not through my own discovery.

FairWitness said...

Also, Z:

The kind of subtle prejudice National Security Advisor, General James Jones, used in his "joke" isn't tolerated anywhere else in polite society. It sickens me that a man who has served under the current and previous Presidents would use Jews to score comic points. Especially when they're in such bad favor with Obama. Very bad taste.

And that comment .... what can one say? Vile slander. Why is it when free markets screw up because of their own greed and stupidity that the Jews are blamed for not falling prey to the herd instinct? Goldman Sachs recognized what was going in the marketplace, particularly the Fannie/Freddie MAC (US government manufactured) crisis, and took counter measures to protect their institution & investors from the bad decisions being made. The shame is not on Goldman Sachs, but rather the dumb asses that created the massive problem to begin with.

Much is being made about the emails going back & forth from Goldman Sachs about their firm capitalizing on the mortgage crisis that was created by the US Federal Government. Obama has decided to attack the smart investment bank that hedged it bets, instead of reforming and punishing the government bureaucrats and CROOKS who run Fannie & Freddie and their political patron-crony-hacks, Barney Frank & Chris Dodd et al, for their malfeasance.

Capitalists didn't create this boondoggle, Washington DC's power elite did! We have just got to get these assholes out of power!

Z said...

FW, thanks, I understood what you meant but I do not remember hearing a Republican politician slamming Israel...nobody mainstream, that is...i could be wrong.
Ron Paul, yes, some nuts in the Tea Party group (whom we can't even be sure ARE TPers and not plants by the Left...don't forget, they promised they'd be infiltrating)

Thanks..xx

Anonymous said...

Beamish, I agree to "get people elected and then make demands". My message is that the Republican Party want's the tea party support, but continues to put their money behind "moderate" candidates because they continue to believe playing it safe, or not to lose, is the answer.

Candidates like Marco Rubio, and a candidate like Allen West in Florida, or Chuck DeVore here in California, aren't getting that support.

All three are legitimate conservative candidates. Tea Party folks support them. I myself have sent them donations. That's what I mean about working at cross purposes.

I'm speaking mainly about primaries here, and the overly cautious approach the GOP takes.

I'm also disgusted that the issue of this administration grabbing power hand over fist and there's no outrage being expressed by the GOP in general, about taking our freedoms away. It's always qualified by "well we support reform, but", or arguing over numbers as was done on the healthcare issue.

Frankly Beamish, the fact that a loon like Ron Paul belongs to a tea party, and tries to take advantage of it doesn't disqualify the entire movement, anymore than the fact that Paul running for President as a Republican disqualified the entire Party.

Where I am, Ron Paul and his son aren't even mentioned. The Tea Party movement is a loosely tied together movement. For the life of me, I don't "get" the attraction of young people to him myself.

I assume you do know that Paul organized his supporters to be at the CPAC convention. That, I know from Fox News. He's a fly on the wall Beamish, and doesn't stand a chance.


Jingo, thanks.
I too am heartened about the stance the Republican Party has taken thus far in Congress. But, I also know Republicans like Lindsay Graham were all set to back Cap and Trade, and I have no doubt that would be the case with Immigration reform.

My entire theme is meant to inject Reagan conservatism into the Republican Party, and what he stood for. Some boldness, truth, and pride in what America has always been.

For instance, where are they in speaking up for the folks in the TP movement while we're attacked mercilessly by the radical cronies of Obama?

I'm not aware of the RLC. I hear nothing of it here. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some leftists in that group. What an ugly turn of events.

I suggest to everyone to contribute if you can to primary candidates who are legitimate consertives. Any amount big or small is important.


Pris

Ducky's here said...

Now, I happen to believe one CAN believe Israel is wrong regarding real estate (I happen to support Israel, but there are some who make arguments against some stances of Israel) and still NOT be Anti Semitic, I know some people don't agree with me on that, but I do think that.

-----------

I didn't think the right thought Israel could be wrong about anything.
As usual throwing around the anti-Semitic charge so often that it's lost any meaning. But criticizing Israel must have something to do with "losing our freedoms".

Right wingers are still wandering in the wilderness.

Mustang said...

The principal differences between Obama and McCain are infinitesimal. Holding our noses while we vote is exactly what I had to do in Nov 2008. Now, of course, we have Michael Steele leading the RINO charge with all this mush about widening the tent. The problem is that widening the tent means that we aren’t a conservative party any longer and people like Ducky wet themselves with glee thinking that this kind of attitude signals a clear win for the communist party. Well, maybe. The fact is the conservative party has been moving steadily left since the presidency of Abraham Lincoln, with one minor 8-year interruption under the Reagan presidency.

What frosts my ass is that rather than explaining conservativism in a very cogent way to recruit people who ARE conservative, Steele chooses to add more water to the soup. Compassionate conservativism means what —we have to give up our values? Beyond this, the RNC is spending $1.09 for every $1.00 raised. The RNC has plenty of money for utter stupidity, but insufficient resources to help elect local conservatives while the DNC is outspending the RNC two to one. To suggest this isn’t about money is naive. Of course it is. It always has been.

I completely agree with Pris … the RNC needs a serious attitude adjustment, and those of us who ARE conservative need to support TRUE conservative candidates.

Semper Fi

Anonymous said...

Ducky, I'd be careful implying the the tea party movement is full of crazies, when the President and his administration are far left radicals.

They represent about 20% of the population, if that. I'd also like to mention that anti-semitism is alive and well on the left. Indeed, it seems to have found a home there.

While you decry negative attitudes towards muslims in the wake of 9-11, you seem to be rather silent on the anti-semitism from them as well as from the left in general. You haven't had a hell of a lot to to say about that have you? Does that mean that your crazies are acceptable?

Because if they aren't, then perhaps you'll agree with me that the far-left radicals now serving in this administration should be disqualified as the loons they are.

As for the huge deficit, you don't add trillions of debt re: healthcare then decry the huge debt and deficit out of the other side of your mouth, thereby using same as an excuse to tax everything in sight. As if it's a brand new revelation. Give me a break.

Pris

Z said...

Ducky, you said ( so damned snidely and belittling because you seem to think that's more effective than facts much of the time ) "I didn't think the right thought Israel could be wrong about anything.
As usual throwing around the anti-Semitic charge so often that it's lost any meaning. But criticizing Israel must have something to do with "losing our freedoms".

I didn't say I thought Israel was wrong on real estate, I said one CAN believe that and still not be AntiSemitic. I guess you'll have to read Jingo's comments thoroughly before you whine that somebody's calling someone Antisemitic..honestly, Ducky, you need to read before responding.

Then you add, just to really insult "Right wingers are still wandering in the wilderness."

too stupid to respond to, of course. Any way of looking at things you don't approve of is wilderness; Ah, the great liberal open, accepting mind at work.


Mustang...Odd, just yesterday a friend who rarely emails me privately (not on a long distribution list, that is) emailed me asking WHY THE HELL DON'T REPUBLICANS GET A THIRTY MINUTE TV SPOT READY AND SHOW IT CONSTANTLY...SHOWING THE DIFFERENCE OF THE LEFT V THE RIGHT, SHOWING WHAT OBAMA'S DOING TO OUR LIBERTIES, HIS APPEASEMENT, HIS APOLOGIES, SHOWING WHAT DEBT WE'RE IN NOW, EXPOSING THE TRUTH BEHIND BUSH'S WARNINGS ON THE HOUSING MARKET, INCLUDING THE VIDEO OF DAN MUDD PROMISING THE BLACK AFRICAN CONGRESS EVERYBODY WILL HAVE HOMES (WHETHER THEY CAN AFFORD THEM OR NOT...REMEMBER, IT'S THE POOR WHO'VE SUFFERED THE MOST IN FORECLOSURES), ETC ETC.?
Why not INDEED?

Will it take Tea Partiers to do that? I believe more Americans would wake up if something like that was done.

Z said...

Pris, so true......you were posting as I was trying to post and kept getting 'java script'..over and over again! So, I didn't respond to you because I hadn't seen your comment yet!

Anyway.....Ducky does seem to have a problem with Israel...not sure if he has trouble with Jews in general. I am not one who thinks the two go hand in hand, but I guess I'm in the minority.
I mean, I hope my friends who love me wouldn't be put off if Armenia did something they didn't like, right?

The Left also seems to have problems with Blacks, and many Black Americans are seeing that now.....It's time to STOP the pimps like Sharpton and Jackson from keeping people believing they NEED HELP more than other Americans..THAT is racism.
Remember, the fabulous thing today is that almost ALL advertisements on TV, for products or investment plans, or anything, have Black families in them! This is because they are BUYING or the ad agencies wouldn't use that demographic.
Sorry, liberals, but Black Americans are not going to be sucking from your welfare teets for too much longer...maybe that's why you're belittling Hispanics as you do...in that, for example, liberal instructors are the ones who promoted bilingual education; what a great way to keep Hispanics as gardeners and house cleaners, don't trust in them enough to learn English quickly as my 9 yr old grandfather did and VERY much succeeded in his life!

beamish said...

Pris,

You succinctly highlight my problem with the Tea Party movement's organizational structure:

Frankly Beamish, the fact that a loon like Ron Paul belongs to a tea party, and tries to take advantage of it doesn't disqualify the entire movement, anymore than the fact that Paul running for President as a Republican disqualified the entire Party.

You're telling the national Republican Party to "put up or shut up" while trying to sell the line that the worst kind of RINO possible in Ron Paul's son running for the Senate in Kentucky is the product of "somebody else's Tea Party."

Just because some of the teachers are openly confessing child molesters doesn't mean it's a bad school. right?

This is why I will not join the Tea Party movement. The TP'ers demand integrity from the Republican Party when it's rather doubtful any of the TPers can even spell the word much less define it.

beamish said...

To me it's as silly as "right-wingers" protesting illegal immigration on the grounds that illeagals are destroying "our" welfare system.

By God, conservatives save the welfare state! I'll get right on that.

::rolls eyes::

Z said...

Beamish, you said "To me it's as silly as "right-wingers" protesting illegal immigration on the grounds that illeagals are destroying "our" welfare system."

Ya, it's said that way sometimes, but what's meant by that is BREAKING THE BANK...nobody likes welfare systems, it's just that illegals ARE breaking that bank by living on it. Of course, plenty of legals do, too...

Anonymous said...

"Anyway.....Ducky does seem to have a problem with Israel...not sure if he has trouble with Jews in general. I am not one who thinks the two go hand in hand, but I guess I'm in the minority.
I mean, I hope my friends who love me wouldn't be put off if Armenia did something they didn't like, right?"

Of course you're right. We'd still love you just the same. That's not even in question.

However, those on the left take the side of the Islamists, Hamas, Hezbollah, which put's me in mind of the left supporting Vietnam against America, and now I think they do have a hatred for their own fellow Americans who disagree with them, Ducky not withstanding.

So, I think that's different than just disagreeing with an Israeli policy. It seems more vehement than just disagreement with policy.

Pris
PS. Sorry for stepping on your (comment) toes.

Steve Harkonnen said...

I'm in agreeing with you on the RP bit, Beamish. That's still an embarrassing point. The guy talks sense on our economy, yet talks out his rear end at the same time, and the "truther" thing will never go away.

The tea party is far too disorganized at the moment to even consider running with them as well. to top it all off we see Palin in the tea party foray as well.

However, I totally agree dropping support for the Republican Party.

That might change for me if Col. West comes into focus. But they really need to let go of people who are like McCain. There are a boatload of conservatives out there like me who can't stand him and his stupid libtard-like ways.

Anonymous said...

Naturally, I agree with every word you said, Pris.

It would be wonderful if your words were sent to every "sitting" Republican in congress.

I would say it's time to vote incumbent R's OUT, but what if we got a DEMOCRAT in their place?

~ FT

Z said...

Pris! You didn't 'step on my toes' in ANY way...no apologies necessary!! Sorry if I gave that impression :-)

I forgot and you're absolutely right...the left DOES favor Hamas, etc., and that IS waaaay beyond being anti any Israeli actions. So true. Thanks for that very sad reminder.

STEVE...I agree about dropping RNC support except, in the meantime, lefties are supporting the stinkin' DNC and so I am really torn. We can't let the Dems win nov 2010 or America's TOAST...unrecoverable, by the way.

FT...I just read your comment before hitting PUBLISH here, I see you agree with me....what do we do if people yank ALL support from the RNC?
Answer: GET OBAMA

Anonymous said...

Beamish, you're comparing a grassroots movement, with no one leader or oganizational headquarters or power. The power is in the numbers from the bottom up, not the top down because there is no Top.

Yes tea party groups raise money and appeal for funds to support certain candidates, but, It's groups not one organization like the RNC for instance. You know that.

At the most recent TP event in DC, there was a faction there who were for the "fair tax" and another who were for the "flat tax", but they were all there because they're believers in the Constitution, freedom, smaller govt etc.

Should they all dump their TP participation because they disagree on that? Dick Armey heads up Freedom Works, which is involved. Mark Williams heads up The Tea Party Express, and so on.

I'd like to know how a grassroots movement stops those people whom they may not like, from showing up at a large gathering of thousands of people.

Maybe the best question is, can we tell Ron Paul he can't register as a Republican and run for President? And does that preclude the Republican Party from being legitimate? Or does it mean that they have a flake in their Party? Probably one of more than a few if truth be told.

You know darn well my piece today was aimed at the leadership of the Republican Party. A well organized, entrenched, Party which enjoys decades of Partyship.

The TP is not a third Party, with all the organization and resouces that requires. I'm through arguing about this.

If you don't want to join then don't. No one is insisting you do.

Pris

Anonymous said...

"I would say it's time to vote incumbent R's OUT, but what if we got a DEMOCRAT in their place?"

Thank you FT, Yes I know, but I think it would be a mistake right now. I'm suggesting focusing on the Republican primaries, then voting for whoever wins those.

We must vote out as many dems as we can. I believe it's crucial. We can't afford the risk of two more years of this government takeover of our people.

You know FT, Mr. Pris wants me to send this to every sitting Republican. Maybe I should.

Pris

Anonymous said...

Steve, my suggestion is to donate to Lt. Col. West, and J.D.Hayworth who is McCain's primary opponent, It's a tight race there as it stands now. We have donated to West and Hayworth.

I told Mr. Pris the other day, "I wish we were rich", but we do what we can. If enough of us do, it can make a difference.

I do believe we can't afford to risk the dems maintaining the power they now have.

Pris

Law and Order Teacher said...

Z, Pris,
The problem for those of us in the tea party is to on the one hand espouse our beliefs and on the other find an outlet for a redress of our grievances.

The very fact that tea parties are not organized is what gives them their power, because I feel I want to be involved with others as long as not forced to toe a party line.

The Repubs just don't get that as you (Pris)say this is about an attitude readjustment. Until we are listened to, we hold nothing for either party.

The problem is that most of us are for a conservative party, not the Repubs at this time, but do identify somewhat with some libertarian ideas such small government. I even would like to see the US less involved in foreign aid, to the point of nearly wiping it out.

We should take more of a domestic approach such working on our energy independence by exploiting our resources. So it would seem that a lot of us are caught in the middle somewhere.

I, for one, am looking for repository for my grievances. Where might that be?

Anonymous said...

"I, for one, am looking for repository for my grievances. Where might that be?"

Law and Order, This is a tough question regarding the TP movement. It's made up of Republicans, Independents, and Democrats. The largest group would be conservatives or American traditionalists regardless of party.

From my experience the TP makes an effort not to be partisan in terms of established Parties, but united in terms of American values and traditions. Conservative.

We know we agree that what is happening to our country is unacceptable re: socialist policies. We are alarmed at the government power grab over the individual and the future for our children. The big picture if you will.

This movement is in it's infancy. A year old. Most everyone involved is focused on the immediate urgency of our government's heavy hand and it's deafness to our voice as the American people.

There is no one place to voice your grievances that I'm aware of. I could voice my grievance to my local TP for instance, but at the moment we are focused on the November election.

I think eventually, if this becomes a more permanent force it may evolve into a conservative organization, an answer to Move-On.Org for instance, or even a third Party at some time.

I do believe that once a power base is formed, there are those who would build upon it if they can. I would prefer, being a Reagan conservative, to bring the Republican Party back to a more conservative foundation.

I agree that what gives the TP the power it has is in it's non-party attraction. I'd like to give you a more definitive answer, but I'd say it's too early to tell. Time will tell.

I tend to still go to the Republican party with my grievances, to keep the pressure on, because they're the ones who vote or withhold votes on the bills, as the case may be.

At the moment, the end time is November. After that, 2012 is the new end time. Your guess is as good as mine.

Pris

beamish said...

Maybe the best question is, can we tell Ron Paul he can't register as a Republican and run for President? And does that preclude the Republican Party from being legitimate? Or does it mean that they have a flake in their Party? Probably one of more than a few if truth be told.

Rand Paul, son of Ron Paul and twice as looney, is running for Senate from Kentucky and is heavily backed by the Tea Party movement there. The Pauls are precisely the sort of candidates the Tea Party in broad strokes is criticizing the Republican PArty for backing INSTEAD OF CONSERVATIVES.

The Pauls are neither conservative nor libertarian. Compare either of them to an actual libertarian-conservative, say Steve Forbes, and the contrast is so great as to be ridiculous. Couple that with the Pauls' undeniable popularity among neo-Nazi and 9/11 conspiracy theory groups, and you begin to wonder if the Kentucky "Tea Party" is almost as left-wing as Obama himself.

Then you've got the big name seals of approval of Rand Paul from Sarah Palin, and suddenly your "grassroots movement with no one leader or oganizational headquarters or power" is being led and organized and empowered to throw weight behind a joke with a disgusting punchline.

Here in St. Louis, a "Blood and Honor" neo-Nazi yokel was heckled and driven away from the Tea Party event on April 15th by Tea Partiers who wanted to make sure such rabble had no place in there group. Everybody, at least in the St. Louis Tea Party neck of the woods wanted to make it adamantly clear that neo-Nazis / white supremacists are unwelcome.

Yet, three hours down the road in Kentucky, Rand Paul is enjoying the unrenounced financial support of the same neo-Nazi groups that back Ron Paul and his basically Democrat anti-Semitic / pro-Islamist foreign policy with Sarah Palin's enthusiastic approval.

At best, you can say Democrats at Tea Party events are a new wave of "Reagan Democrats" (aka neo-conservatives) wanting to pull the Democrat Party rightwards away from the socialism of Obama with threats to vote for Republicans, while joining with conservatives that voted Republican all along threatening to vote differently (or stay home as they did in 2006 and 2008) if the Republican Party doesn't change to their liking, and their liking can't be nailed down any easier than Jell-O to a tree.

Leaderless resistance models are strong because you can't isolate a single target command structure within them. But leaderless resistance models are weak because you can dismiss the whole thing the same way you'd dismiss an al Qaeda cell that swore up and down all they're not like the other al Qaeda cells and all they want to do is to bake cookies.

And throughout all this cognitive dissonance, we're supposed to imagine the Tea Party movement as a whole is "giving a voice to people." I don't think I could ridicule the movement better than it does itself.

A clear sign that the Tea Party movement wishes to be taken seriously as a force for conservatism would be to actually be a conservative organization, and not the watered down and tainted mess that it undeniably is.

beamish said...

Beamish, you said "To me it's as silly as "right-wingers" protesting illegal immigration on the grounds that illeagals are destroying "our" welfare system."

Ya, it's said that way sometimes, but what's meant by that is BREAKING THE BANK...nobody likes welfare systems, it's just that illegals ARE breaking that bank by living on it. Of course, plenty of legals do, too...


Precisely. Want to stop illegal immigrants from tapping welfare? End welfare for all including legal citizens.

Or dance the "I'm not a racist you are" immigration reform tune with the intellectually pre-adolescents in power and reform nothing.

You can go the same way with the "bring back prayer and teach creationism in public schools" vibe when there should be no public schools. Conservatives, where art thou?

If Rand Paul in particular becomes a celebrated star of "a "libertarian-conservative movement" in the Tea Party, I will be the first one to renounce ownership of a stolen label and bill myself as the "all libertarian-conservatives must die" partisan.

The government should ______.

Any answer other than "@#$@ off." is not libertarian nor conservative.

Anonymous said...

Read this please. It may not be fit to set the world on fire, but it certainly doesn't sound like the ravings of a lunatic or a liberal run amok.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2382373/posts

Contains some of the platform positions of Rand Paul. Both he and his better known father Ron Paul are medical doctors. It requires brains, great personal discipline, and many years of dedicated, well-focused effort to qualify as an MD.

I heard Ron Paul extensively during the 2008 primary season. A great deal of what he said made perfect sense to me -- was very much in accord with the thinking of George Washington and many of the other Founders as a matter of fact. How anyone could glean "anti-Semitism" from his remarks I can't imagine. Just because someone doesn't say exactly what you might WISH him to say, doesn't mean he's dead set AGAINST you. It only means he has different priorities.

Of course the Founders were not conservatives -- they were, instead, radical libertarians. Today I suppose the Founders would be regarded as "lunatics" and "a dangerous influence."

It would be the same with Jesus Christ. If He were to appear among us today, we would not recognize Him or revere Him, we would crucify Him all over again.

Meaning: All of us see others through the prism of our own experience, fears, pet beliefs and prejudices. Sometimes what we say about others may tell more about who WE are than who THEY are.

Ron Paul and his followers are set against the ever growing concentration of centralized power in Washington.

So am I, and so were the Founders.

~ FreeThinke

beamish said...

FairWitness,

What the hell is this crap anyway? The resurgence of anti-Semitism/Israel sentiment arrived with the Obamas in the White House.

Seems that this is not related to party, is it?


Anti-Semitism is as common a thread in leftist thought as oats in oatmeal.

The "Jewish international bankers / can't have a world without capitalism without acheiving a world without Jews" political trope comes right out of Proudhon, Marx, and Bukanin, and was synthesized by the German left-wing labor movement headed by Adolf Hitler. One of the common ground things between national socialist Hitler and international socialist Stalin was the imperative to exterminate Jews. Giving "capitalism" a specific ethnicity creates a real target for leftists to vent their inherently violent tendencies upon, inherently violent tendencies championed by Robespierre in his "Justification of the Use of Terror" during the "Reign of Terror" in revolutionary France.

[It should be mentioned here that leftist philosophies are vehemently hostile and unwelcoming to people capable of rational thought, emerging as they all do ultimately from illiterate French peasants on the left side of the Estates General, steeped in class envies and anti-Semitism not exactly unsowed and unharvested by the Catholic Church]

Jump ahead two centuries to our lifetimes and you see the Soviet Union actively backing Arab terrorist groups against Israel with the same "no Jews = no capitalism" lunacy that forms the core component of all the big names in socialist thought past and present. "Islamofascism" is just another branch on that leftist tree of stupid. Al Gore doesn't need mad bombers to spread the word about "global warming." He's got Osama Bin Laden for that.

The unwillingness to confront anti-Semiticism when it pops up is more often than not an unwillingness to confront leftism itself. More often or not, the leftist is seeking an attack on capitalism itself and couching it in the anti-Semitic terms he learned his views from.

"Auschwitz meant that six million Jews were killed, and thrown on the waste-heap of Europe, for what they were: money Jews. Finance capital and the banks, the hard core of the system of imperialism and capitalism, had turned the hatred of men against money and exploitation, and against the Jews … Anti-Semitism is really a hatred of capitalism." - Ulrike Meinhof, of the "Red Army Faction" (Baader-Meinhof Gang).

As I said, leftists are not exactly as sharp as pillows when it comes to self-examination.

"Anti-semitic right wingers" is a political oxymoron.

Or used to be and should still be... :(

beamish said...

FT,

Wow. Jesus Christ, Ron Paul, Rand Paul, the Founding Fathers, and not Elvis and Captain America?

Anonymous said...

FWIW, I think it's possible to call for an open public inquiry into the Federal Reserve without being anti-Semitic or a conspiratorial "kook". Just who the hell is the Federal Reserve — who are the institutions and the individuals who run that institution As Alan Greenspan said the chairman of the FED is more powerful than the President of the country. Was he blowing smoke?

The individual most obsessed with creating a central bank in America was not even an American but a German banker (and I don't know if he was a Jew since that's beside the point). Paul Warburg was from a German banking family and found a political sympathizer in Nelson Aldrich, a Rhode Island Senator to assist in his mission. Central banking is a prime tool of statist ideology since it does allow the intrusion of an institution into the most vital affairs of survival on this planet — the production and exchange of goods.

The Federal Reserve Act was enacted by the progressive politics of Woodrow Wilson in 1913. The lies used to pretend this institution would resolve all the economic disruptions of the past can be seen today to be just that—LIES.

Have economic panics and assorted calamities disappeared over the past history since the creation of the FED? Think of the Roaring '20's and the Depression of the '30's and all that has occurred over more recent times. IMO, instead of disappearing the problems have become exacerbated and we're not out of the woods today, by a long shot just because the punditry say the opposite.

Haw can an institution which has seen the value of the currency depreciate from one dollar to a constant value of less than five cents today pretend they have solved the problems of economic upheaval?

If you think you believe in individual rights and the right of individual to make responsible personal decisions — you fall into a serious error of pretending that a politically motivated creation like the Federal Reserve will bring that to reality. It was created explicitly to destroy those concepts. A conspiracy "theory" becomes just a plain conspiracy when reality supports the "theory".

I can't vote for Ron or Rand Paul but I do support the idea of a transparent forensic audit of the FED from the time of its creation to the present. Show who benefited individually and as banking institutions across the span of time of its history. Let the chips fall where they may and if trillions have been swindled from the country and the world by the FED ... perhaps there would not be the potential of facing trillion dollar debts to be paid by future generations — if justice can be done.

Waylon

Anonymous said...

Bless you, Waylon. Your last post was a GEM.

I take when you say "I can't vote for Ron or Rand Paul," that you cannot, because you are a Canadian -- not because you would not, if you were an American.

The imposition of greater and greater amounts of CENTRALIZED POWER is the single most significant causative factor in the destruction of the vision of our Founding Fathers.

The Industrial Revolution, however, was the unwitting cause of social and economic conditions that gave Hegel-inspired Marxism and Fabian Socialism what-seemed-to-be a good excuse to get their ugly, mud-caked, hobnailed clodhoppers in the door that led to the corridors of power.

One of the sick jokes of the last century was that Hitler's Third Reich came to power with a virulent ANTI-COMMUNIST agenda.

That WE fought WITH the Stalinists against Hitler, while the Stalinists were the BIGGEST threat to EVERYONE all the while is an incredible irony. FDR was so fond of Uncle Joe Stalin it was almost palpable in the air between them. So was the New York Times, "the newspaper of record." The NYT was an ardent, unabashed supporter of Communism -- and still is.

How does anti-Semitism come into this?

Another HUGE irony is that Marx and most of his early followers were in fact ETHNIC Jews. That's not defamatory, it's just factual.

Marxism is anti-Christian and anti-Religion as well as anti-Capitalism and, therefore, anti-Middle Class.

One of the BIG problems with Joe McCarthy was that his HUAC activities could easily be interpreted as ANTI-SEMITIC. Why? Because it just so happened that MOST of the people he quite rightly inveighed against among the Hollywood elite just HAPPENED to be ethnic Jews.

Mixing up anti-Semitism with anti-Communism might be easy to do, but it's an INCORRECT view of history. I have no statistics, but I'm sure there were JUST as many anti-Communist Jews (ethnic and religious) as there were otherwise. Nevertheless, the movement got a powerful start from disaffected, alienated Jewish intellectuals. Another great irony of history is that most of those were directly inspired by a disaffected, alienated, anti-social Italian whose name was Antonio Gramsci.

Now, if you want to label this recital of historical FACT "anti-Semitic," or muddle it up with a lot of specious, hyper-emotional invective please go right ahead, but expressing Anti-Semitism is not -- and never has been -- the point.

The point is getting at the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

"Ye shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall make you free."

Avoiding, glossing over or deliberately misrepresenting facts to support a partisan point of view is not in any constructive. It produces nothing but bilious rhetoric, confusion and destructive passion.

~ FreeThinke

Anonymous said...

FT, even as far back as the 1930's certain individuals in congress and the senate called for an inquiry into the FED. Louis McFadden was been smeared as anti-Semitic so that issue was derailed by the diversion from the issue he raised by the ugly smear campaign. Another later inquiry that was derailed by loud screeching was the Reece Committee — that was to expose the funds flowing from tax exempt foundations into groups and individuals whose purpose was to undermine the foundation of the country.

FT, I agree that the BIG LIE about fundamental differences between National Socialism and Hitler and the Bolshevik Socialism of Stalin divert people from the truth about the nature of the commonality between those two tyrannical types of rule. WW II began on Seeptember1, 1939 about two weeks after a non-aggression pact signed between those two countries — the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. By mid September of 1939 Poland was facing another invasion on the Eastern front from the Bolsheviks —thus fighting a war on two fronts.

Let's not forget Stalin and the Bolsheviks never lifted a finger as the Nazi's rolled across Western Europe. It was only when Hitler violated the agreement with the USSR that the conflict began between Germany and the USSR and Stalin became an "ally" with the West against Hitler and his axis.

So that is one BIG LIE that should not be permitted to advance further than it has — and Soviet statism is an enemy of freedom and individual rights.

Even if I was American, I would need to know more about the specifics of the Pauls' economic reforms. As far as I understand they call for the government to run the central bank which wouldn't solve the problem longer term, IMO. Canada has a central bank — the Bank of Canada — which is run as Crown Corporation which the government leadership has a bigger say. That didn't turn out well under the long past leadership Pierre Trudeau who ran the economy into the ground while inflating the currency and running up huge debts that the country is only now beginning to recover from. I'd be more inclined to think "de-centralized" banking would be a better alternative letting the market determine interest rates while allowing the customer to choose in a competitive environment the bank to be selected to protect his assets and savings.

Waylon

Anonymous said...

Thank you, Waylon. Please keep talking. It's usually very enlightening.

Your knowledge of history is greater than mine, so it's good that someone is here to help fill in the gaps. Even at my advanced age I'd still like to learn more, because no matter how strong they may be "feelings" are just not enough.

~ FreeThinke

beamish said...

I'm not "smearing" the Pauls as anti-Semitic. They're more that happy to taint themselves.

And Louis McFadden wasn't "smeared" as an anti-Semite. He was rather proudly supportive of the left-wing labor activist Adolf Hitler's actions to rid Germany of Jews, and rather outspoken about his concern Hitler was going to export his "Jewish problem" to the United States. Maybe he didn't know the Nazis were kicking off the Holocaust, worried as he was that Germany's Jews were going to wind up immigrating America. McFadden wanted no Jews in America and no Jews fleeing other nations to come to America. He was rather crystal clear about his anti-Semitism.

Smear? Hardly.

Z said...

Beamish, that's pretty darned awful. Thanks for the link.

MK said...

"Will they begin their journey in America carrying the yoke of unthinkable debt left to them by their forebearers..."

Most likely they'll be passing on that debt to their children too. That is the legacy of the democrats. I'm sure they're really proud of themselves.

Anonymous said...

I'd categorize labeling an individual an anti-Semite to deflect a valid criticism that individual has made about a controversial topic — suggesting that the actions of the Federal Reserve led to the Depression of the '30's — to be on the same level as those who suggest that any criticism of the policies of President Barrack Obama is due to racism.

Both attack the individual with a label or smear to undermine an issue. One can find many quotations in the Congressional Record ... are any of these what one could categorize as anti-Semitic? He wouldn't be the first person to raise questions about the actions of the Federal Reserve to be attacked with the intent to destroy the individual while pretending his criticism is not valid. Some may have even paid a higher price than McFadden.

As to Ron Paul, my understanding of his ideas is that he calls for limited government and recognizing the essence of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence as the founding principles for the country and including full and transparent disclosure of the institution of the Federal Reserve.
On those ideas I agree with Paul.

It would be interesting see or hear the actual words that would indict an individual on the charge of anti-Semitism — words coming directly from them not from what somebody else says they said — hearsay evidence.


Waylon

Anonymous said...

Here's an interesting link to an interview with an older man who had witnessed first hand some actions in the banking system during the Roaring '20's and the attitude of the bankers toward "sound banking" in the future. Norman Dodd was also part of a congressional inquiry into the funding of tax exempt foundations to discuss where the funds actually were used and by whom.

It's interesting to note the context in time the ideas to "change the world" were discussed and how — by war — this change was to be brought about. This was in 1908 before WW I and oddly enough the conversations were recoded in the minutes of a tax exempt foundation.


To move the country and the world in that direction he discusses how the education system was to be used to "educate" future generations. Also noteworthy is the recognition that "history" should be used and altered in a manner to achieve those ends.

I'd say that would be an accurate recognition of what the past has delivered to the present. And I know it's about an hour long but the interview does deliver the goods and allows one to see that the problems of the present did not happen by accident but are the result of seeing big ideas long ago which were ultimately evil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUYCBfmIcHM

Waylon

beamish said...

Waylon,

Regardless and irrespective of what McFadden had to say about the Federal Reserve, he wasn't "smeared" as an anti-Semite to shout down whatever concerns about the Fed he had, he is and was identified as an anti-Semite because he was one, and a quite outspoken one at that. He animosity towards Jews and sympathy for Hitler's anti-Semitism is rather well documented.

It is possible to dislike the Fed without being an anti-Semite (that alignment is rather rare these days, granted) but in the case of McFadden, he was both anti-Fed and anti-Semitic. I was only taking exception to your saying McFadden was "smeared." No, he wasn't. He was rather proudly and outspokenly anti-Semitic.

As for Ron Paul, I was turned off by his racism and anti-Semitism documented in his newsletters back in the late 80s / early 90s when I was a registed Libertarian Party member and very active. I voted for Libertarians across the ballot in 1988 except for Ron Paul when he first ran for President.

These days, I make certain who I'm speaking with knows I'm a "small-l" libertarian, and no longer associated with the LP proper. I wish the GOP would get back to its "fusionist" philosophy that gave Reagan two landslide elections.

If Ron Paul has anything of value to offer American politics (I'm from the seriously doubting "Ron Paul should shut the f*ck up" school) he's buried in it the anti-Semitic, neo-Nazi pseudo-samizdats you have to have to swim through to find it.

beamish said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
beamish said...

FT,

Probably the most outrageous thing about Depression era politics is after Hoover (who had written a book despising capitalism, mind you) started expanding the federal government, FD Roosevelt campaigned against Hoover calling him a "socialist." (Before expanding Hoover's federal programs and creating more on top of them)

The Great Depression was caused by banks making loans to people who had no means of paying back so they could play in the stock market.

The repetitious farce of unlearned history keeps happening.

Anonymous said...

Beamish

Not to belabor the point nor to go overboard in supporting Louis McFadden, I'll confine my support for his points about American banking and the Federal Reserve. I admit there could be more to him that I will not pretend to be totally familiar with.

But pointing out his support or praise for Hitler and National Socialism — I'll simply point out that the man died in 1936 BEFORE WW II began and much of what was perpetrated by Hitler came to light after McFadden's death. He would not be the only American who supported the ideas of Hitler including the likes of Joseph P. Kennedy, the American Ambassador to Great Britain and even Prescott Bush.

Do you equally revile American business people whose businesses profit from wars which turn out to be based on morally despicable grounds. I believe American businesses traded with both sides before America entered WW I and I believe that some American companies owned a large percentage of the shares of I. G. Farben during WW II. The factory of I.G. Farben was not bombed out of existence either. Compare that to the hell that rained down on either Cologne or Dresden and ask yourself why ...

Waylon

Anonymous said...

Just a point of clarification: I.G. Farben was (is) the German chemical giant and war materiel manufacturer that supplied the German Wehrmacht including the gases used in their extermination camps. A couple of the American companies involved were Dupont and Standard Oil of New Jersey. And the last mentioned company, a Rockefeller company, is central to any inquiry into who is the Federal Reserve and who has benefited from its creation ...

And, no, those American companies did not relinquish their share ownership when America entered WW II and America's own sons were in harms way during that conflagration. That to me is greater than any sin committed by any individual.

Waylon

beamish said...

Well for one thing, Waylon, FDR didn't have a problem with Hitler and the Nazis (and American union steelworkers didn't have a problem cashing paychecks from American steel corporations doing business with Nazis) until Hitler turned on Roosevelt's comrade Stalin. Reports of abuse of Jews in Nazi Germany were likely met by FDR with the same glee McFadden expressed before he died.

As for Cologne and Dresden, these are tragedies of history that might have been made less tragic if there was ground footage of Nazis burning in their homes screaming for help to enjoy with popcorn on YouTube.

Z said...

Waylon, do you think the American companies were knowingly creating gases to kill people with and continued after having learned of the death camps?

beamish said...

As for Joe Kennedy (leftist) and Prescott Bush (leftist), yes, I give them equal derision. There isn't a branch of leftist political taxonomy I don't have contempt for, whether they're "progressives," Nazis, Communists, or whatever they decide to call themselves before they set about killing people.

beamish said...

Z,

DuPont and Standard Oil may have legally owned shares in IG Farben, but to suggest the Nazis (who had a windfall profits tax that would make Jimmy Carter feel inadequate) were paying dividends out to American companies at the same time they were at war with America is just ludicrous.

And also considering that under Nazi Germany's left-wing centrally planned socialist economy where everything once private belonged to the government, IG Farben stocks held by foreign investors wouldn't have been honored just as German stockholders had no say.

It's sort of like when Obama shafted GM stockholders and syndicalized the empty factory bidness, only IG Farben had plenty of "government contract work" to do for Hitler or die.

Z said...

"DuPont and Standard Oil may have legally owned shares in IG Farben, but to suggest the Nazis (who had a windfall profits tax that would make Jimmy Carter feel inadequate) were paying dividends out to American companies at the same time they were at war with America is just ludicrous."

That's what I would have thought...

Were the products they supposedly made which killed people meant for other purposes? I hate to sound naive, but this is all new to me.

Anonymous said...

Z, I would say that I.G. Farben had the technology and capability to manufacture the gases and armaments themselves. I was just pointing out that sometimes those in harms way pay the price at times to arms which were provided by war profiteers from the last place one would suspect — the home and native land of those fighting an enemy armed by "businesses" from ones own country.

I also find it incongruous that the arms supplying plant of Farben somehow wasn't completely destroyed by air raids as were the cities of Cologne and Dresden. I'd say more civilians including women and children died in those cities than the Nazis who were the alleged target.

Waylon

Z said...

Dresden and Cologne were horrid, inhuman and cruel mistakes. And yes, it is incongruous that that factory wasn't destroyed.......

Anonymous said...

I don't see much value in looking back at the (very) few victories we've achieved with the hope in mind of finding and emphasizing evidence that we were as evil as our enemies -- possibly worse.

"What's done is done, and cannot be undone..."

Arrogant pride may be bad, but self-hatred is probably even worse.

If the Germans didn't want Dresden, and the Japanese didn't want Hiroshima, they should NOT have committed aggression against Britain and the United States.

Think of the hundreds of millions of lives lost -- and maimed -- and orphaned -- and made desperately poor and homeless. I DESPISE "war," but you HAVE to respond when your country is attacked and invaded.

Just let us never forget who the AGGRESSORS were. THEY are the ones who deserve ALL the blame.


~ FreeThinke

beamish said...

Dresden and Cologne were in part revenge for Germany's use of indiscriminate bombing of London with buzz bombs and V-2 rockets and Dresden in particular was a juicy target because it was undefended by anti-aircraft guns and filled with Germans fleeing the advance of the Soviet Red Army.

The idea was to destroy the German faith in the Nazi government to protect them. Just look at the nastiness from New Orleans levelled at Washington after Hurricane Katrina and amplify that by a factor of a government who's Nazi slogan was "You belong to the state" and you'll get the full effect of the intention to give the German people the idea that their Nazi government had brought them more ruin that glory.

Cruel? Perhaps. Effective? Very.

There's an object lesson there too. Subsume your individuality to a totalitarian state and your government will show you how worthless you are in their calculus.

Anonymous said...

SIXTY-FIVE