Did a form of Political Correctness kill the four Americans on the yacht in Somali waters? HERE is one account, HERE is another.......The first account gives one a slightly sickening feeling that Associated Press finds us to blame in some way. The Agence France Presse account does not. There are other stories which tell of this tragedy but none of them really jive as details are still forthcoming.
I can't imagine 3 AMERICAN WARSHIPS could trail a yacht being hounded by Somali hijackers and this was the best we can do. My question is this; has a certain political correctness lost these people their very lives? If American NAVY SHIPS can't squelch skinny little Somali terrorists in search of easy big money from the world Super Power, what's next? Do the pirates board the yachts so they feel safe because we're afraid to hit while innocent people are on board? Could we have been rougher? Maybe not; read this from the first link above:
Reuters managed to get a pirate with some connection to the hijackers on the telephone:"Our colleagues called us this morning, that they were being attacked by a U.S. warship," a pirate who identified himself as Mohamud told Reuters. "The U.S. warship shot in the head two of my comrades who were on the deck of the yacht by the time they alerted us," Mohamud said. "This is the time we ordered the other comrades inside yacht to react -- kill the four Americans because there was no other alternative
"The killing of those four Americans and our comrades is a fair game that has started. Everybody will react if his life is in danger. We should not agree to be killed and let the hostages be freed," a pirate called Hussein told Reuters from Hobyo, another Somali coastal pirate haven. -- then our line got cut."
These people are driven and they know just what they're doing. Quite some comments above...this is "a fair game that has started"? REALLY? They start this game, they get some of their own killed, and they whine that they should be able to react (kill) because THEIR LIVES ARE IN DANGER? Who put them in danger? And, by the way, there are 'coastal pirate havens'.......can't we make them less haven-esque with ONE American warship's firing power?
Think that might stop them? What do you think about this whole thing and political correctness? Is America afraid to hit hard because of world opinion...? Or it's just not nice to hurt poor Somalis? WHAT?
z
93 comments:
In my opinion, I think the commander in chief gave the order not to shoot and that is what is happening.
Here's another entry because I had to sign in again. I like to see what everybody else thinks.
Sink the pirate ships, obliterate the ports they use, and bomb the capital of Somalia until the families of the dead pirates thank us for killing their relatives.
I'm not going to assign blame, so please take the following comment in the spirit intended.
This yacht's going into the Gulf of Aden is like going into SE D.C. after midnight on a Saturday night and waving $100 bills. A good outcome would not be likely as the crack dealers would crawl out of the woodwork to get the loot by force.
Beamish has the right idea in his comment -- now that the American hostages are dead.
Some reading on the history of Moslem pirates.
Kidnapping and Hijacking is a Business for the Bandits, this kind of BUSINESS existed always, But, it became FLEURISANTE and very well payable from 1979 (US Embassy Hostages of Tehran), where Carter played very soft and signed and accepted the deal(that was imposed by Khomeini) and REAGAN payed the Hostage takers TOWICE,
REAGAN payed them a price that for eternity made the USA administrations engaged and involved in a very shamefull and dirty deal with the Islamists on power in TEHRAN.
CARTER's Administration signed an agreement (PACT OF ALGERI) with KHOMEINI,
Some of the points of that PACT were:
1 - USA will paye KHOMEINY 10 Billions of USD$.
2 - USA engage to reject and prevent all kind of LAWSUITS against HOSTAGE TAKERS and IRAN for ever.
3 - USA is engaged to never attempt to anykind of efforts to undermine the security of the MULLAHS OF IRAN and is engaged to never attempt to REGIME CHANGE in IRAN.
When Khomeini became drunk of these incentives, he Bombed the USA Soldlers Camp of Beirut (246 killed) and he bombed US Embassy of Libanon (more than 24 killed).
REAGAN PAYED MUCH MORE by sending Colonel Oliver North to TEHRAN with
a GOLDEN COLT(which means all kinds of USA HIGHTECH ARMS), a CAKE( les Ayatollahs like too much the GREAT SATAN's CAKE which represents the USA SURRENDER) and a GOLDEN KORAN (which means, USA submits itself to SHARIA) and Reagan withdrawed the USA TROOPS From Libanon and Offered LIBANON to Khomeiny( Affaire IRAN-GATE).
Khomeiny created Hezbollah of LIBANON(1982) just after USA' troop departure, and Kidnapped the CIA DIRECTOR of Midel east.
during 2 years of torture, the CIA Director submited all the intelligence of the CIA in the Midel east countries.
from 1982 to 1984, all the CIA secret agents were eliminated in the MIDEL EAST and the GULF countries.
We are in contact with some of the famillies of those KILLED SOLDIERS, Their compliants are rejected in all the USA COURTS from 1982 according to the DIRTY DEAL SIGNED BEtWEEN REAGAN ADMINISTRATION AND THE MULLAHS.
The Somalian hijakers and African Kidnapers of SAHRA and Africa and Maghreb have learned their lessons in the Mullahs school, they are briefed that EU and USA will paye always the price, and they will paye more if you show them that you are rough.
FOR a Business you need tow sides, USA is a good SIDE.
And if you kill them, they will paye more.
SAM
And even more importantly, what are we going to do about it? I'd guess Nothing!
As I said in my blog.
I can remember (a long time ago) when ANYONE killed an American citizen overseas, they were dealt with promptly and severely. But this policy no longer exists.
The Malcontent;
USA is very active on hostage business, they negociate,
You have the Hostages right now in IRAN, and USA NEGICIATE, and USA Payes from 2 years ago till now the Ayatollahs.
SAM
I wouldn't second guess the military. There are too many things that can go wrong and the civilians are responsible for taking a very reckless chance.
What political correctness (whatever the hell that is) has to do with this is a mystery.
Of course studs like Beamish will have someone else (he never gets involved himself) bomb civilians (the villages are not all pirates) and expect that will resolve everything. Just like our useless action in Afghanistan.
Of course I can remember when the great hero of the big talkers, St. Ronnie Raygun, put marines in an unprotected position in Beirut to try to bail out his Likud buddies and promptly cut and run after the attack.
The history of the piracy in Somalia as a response to protection of fishing rights and livelihoods isn't too well known but now it's metastasized. You've got insiders in the transport industry in on it and it's become its own industry.
So just lash out and get all moy mucho macho, that will resolve it. Fixes everything. Bore me later, Beamish.
Too many safe havens to bomb as I said before these people operate from the south China Sea to the arabian gulf. The pirates currently hold over 600 hostages and 30 some vessels. They've been paid millions of dollars in ransom up to this point so they know it's lucrative. You can't blame these people for being there anymore then you can blame oil tankers and others from doing business as they are hijacked on a consistent basis. My queestion is what is a navy for if not this?
Boy, the world, even those pirates, are scared to death of what Hussein might do to them! Shaking in their hovels at the thought. It's appalling to what depths the U.S. & it's reputation have sunk. We need someone with a spine. But Hussein is too worried about the unions in Wisc. to think about trivial matters like this. I like Beamish's idea of obliterating that carbuncle on the backside of the world.
But at the same time, those 4 had absolutely no business in that part of the world, much less proselytizing in a Muslim region. Tankers, freighters, & warships have to travel in unsafe regions, but they did not. It was their choice.
Silvrlady
Its such a large swath of the high seas that it's like saying MP one should travel from DC to LA because there are criminals in Compton.
no not MP
in answer to your post question hun..yes it did and continues to!
The only ones responsible for these deaths are the four Americans.
How did that Faith thing work out for theme?
LOL @ CS! Making the victims responsible is like blaming a woman for getting raped because she wore high heels instead of flats.
No, the pirates are reponsible and will be brought to trial, but the responsibility also lies with the nations and corporations who have been enabling these guys for years with huge ransoms. These crimes happen to both commercial and private vessels and suggesting that people don't travel this way is like suggesting that no one travel the highways here again. It's ridiculous on its face.
It also should fall on our media who seem to think it only important to report this when it happens to us. It's been going on for far too long and the real peril is not from the occasional private sailor(s) who may may be taken captive but the large oil tankers that are taken and used as phantom ships. I'll recommend this book again.
Most of us are woefully ignorant on the issue because we don't understand the geography or the situations that have led up to this particular incident.
you can buy that book for .01 and shipping is only $2.98 at Amazon.
BTW is I was a Somali pirate, an American jail might look better than home. At least there are 3 squares a day and I won't have to put up with any Sharia law overlords.
Elmers Brother;
Iranian Mullahs have created an overseas terrorist force (QODS FORCE) under the Passdarans Army.
Passdarans Army is like the Geschtapo, and (QODS FORCE) is an Special Comando force operating outside of Iran.
From 30 years ago till now, Qods Forces arm, train, and FUND and Organizes the Somalian Insurgents and Pirates.
the Question is, What is the income for the Mullahs to arm and Fund those Pirates?
The answer is, to make insecure and Dangerous the AFRICA for the CURIOUS people, Uranium Inspectors, and Western democracies so that they can not find the Mullahs URANIUM supply sources.
SAM
I honestly think those people should have never been there in the first place. If I see a fire, I don't jump in it.
I'm not excusing the pirates but would you go in the gulf of Somalia when the risk was advertised?
They also knew about it since they at some point stop radio communications in order to be not detected.
It's a tragic story but I don't think PCness is the cause here.
I honestly think those people should have never been there in the first place. If I see a fire, I don't jump in it.
with all due respect FB, I think this attitude is from people who are unaware of the geography and the vast areas with which these pirates operate.
Only a Liberal would blame the victim.
I think it's a bit different in this case. It's not about blaming the victim, and excusing the murderers, it's about recognizing the fact they took an immense risk.
Conservatives love personal responsibility. It does apply in this case where those people were not very responsible.
with all due respect FB, I think this attitude is from people who are unaware of the geography and the vast areas with which these pirates operate.
With all due respect, this comment is very snobby and has nothing to do with my point or the issue.
I would not go in the water of Somalia. Period. Like I would not go to Egypt now.
From 30 years ago till now, Qods Forces arm, train, and FUND and Organizes the Somalian Insurgents and Pirates.
This piracy happens all around southeast Asia, not just near the Horn of Africa.
With all due respect, this comment is very snobby and has nothing to do with my point or the issue.
I would not go in the water of Somalia. Period. Like I would not go to Egypt now.
Sorry FB I didn't mean to sound snobby, I'm only suggesting that a look at the globe, from the South China Sea to the Arabian Gulf is a ridiulously large area for people to avoid.
This isn't like going into a bad neighborhood we're talking about nearly half the naviagable waters of the world.
another way of saying this is that we're so focused on the description "Somali" that we're missing the whole picture and that this is going on on a much wider scale and to suggest that these people are to blame for being there is simply myopic.
Speaking of Egypt, I live in a Baptist/Pentecostal heavy agricultural area in the South. My husband told me this morning that 10 couples, at least one man in the bunch a preacher, are in Egypt at the moment. I don't know about the rest of them. If something happens to them I have no sympathy! Idiots!!
Silvrlady
The Somalis have operated within a hundred miles of the Indian coast recently. An enormous area to patrol.
Elmer Brothers;
It seems that your (point FORT) is the Maritim Geography;
But, the Pirates are not operating only in their own areas, they move, too, they are equiped with the last navigation technologic (Satellites, Electronic, Computers) tools.
They are even informed about the American Military coverage ranges.
They capture your Military Maritim mouvements.
they track very easily the TANKERS itineraries by satellites ( Magelans and GPS with high precision).
Some High TEC Military Tracking tools should be bought by an special Liscence of your Pentagon, Tresor, and Commerce and State. dept.
I know this Because I have worked in a Parralel Tech. for the Government and for the Private.
So, these Pirates have access to these tools, Without having a Government Behind, they never can buy these tools to continue their Piracy.
They Capture when your Military and Marine is active in their region.
Immediately, they stop their mouvement and observe your mouvement.
You are right here, to be able to stop them, you need a permanent Maritim presence and patrol to cover a very extended region, that technically becomes impossible.
I wanted just to tell you that, those Pirates are FUND and equipped and trained by QODS FORCES, they can travel everywhere.
SAM
Linda...one account, AP of course, said we killed two of theirs, did you hear that? And then they were told to kill all four of ours.... I'm glad you came back to get informed of the rest of the comments, they're so interesting!
Beamish...maybe not QUITE that, but close wouldn't hurt..
AOW...nobody's assigning blame but it was insane to go where they did, especially since they knew.
SAM, your information is always hard to read because it shows our 'deals' behind the scenes. Of course, today, we are kept from doing anything that benefits America because our thug administration is so concerned about making sure every other country is happy :-)
I don't know quite what you mean in your last sentence...I lost track of who "them" were!
Malcontent..IN OUR DREAMS. sad, isn't it.
Ducky, political correctness came around when America suddenly felt pleasing and appeasing liberals was her first concern. Can't punish criminals too hard, that's unkind; can't go after pirates, one of them might get hurt and then OH, the media...
MAYBE, as my post clearly said, we could do something big against Somali pirates which might hurt a few now and save tons of lives later...maybe even OUR lives, which probably isn't PC but it sounds good to Conservative AMericans.
The history is Somalis can't fish...everyone knows that, but it's such a red herring (pardon the unintended pun) it's almost laughable. Fix the problem. Normal people don't kill innocent people to get their way.
Elbro, those 3 or 4 'warships' were our Navy, following sheepishly behind the yacht trying to figure out what to do. THAT's our NAVY! Man. Of course, those sailors know what they should have done.
I don't think Somali pirates are navigating in that huge amount of waters you describe, are they?
Explain what you mean.xx
Mark, a lot of us felt the victims should never have gone near that area....it's so sad as they'd be alive had they not. But, of course, how many people KILL innocent people like the pirates did. THAT's who's to blame.
Common Sense, to talk the faith aspect is too huge for here and now but there are tons of scripture which, if you were interested or believed in them, I could write here that say their deaths are not for nothing. Yes, they were taking Bibles and, for example, the world knows this and wonders at people who love others so much that they'd risk their lives to get the 'good news' out.. They were so in earnest that their bibles were marked NOT FOR SALE because some dopes had tried to sell them. .. It sounds nuts but the more I study, the more I'm convicted of the truth of scripture like "ALl things work for the good of those who love Him, who've been called according to His purpose."
If one is a believer, one knows they're in a pretty darned good place now...far better than this. It's a Divine Point of View I struggled with for a lot of years.
I don't think Somali pirates are navigating in that huge amount of waters you describe, are they?
Explain what you mean.xx
what I mean is that this piracy is not limited to Somali waters. In reference to others suggesting these folks put themselves in harms way...I hope I made myself clear with the analogies I gave. 'Somali' pirates unfortunately is a term our media uses synonymously to describe all these criminals who operate from Borneo to Oman. Suggesting that people not sail in to pirate infested waters would mean half the navigable waters of the world and all of Southeast Asia would be off limits.
as for our Navy...like using any military force it takes political will. Something we don't have.
Sam what you say is interesting and very intriguing. It wouldn't surprise me one bit. It doesn't take a lot of high tech gagdets. YOu can get a GPS for less than a hundred dollars.
The Somalis have operated within a hundred miles of the Indian coast recently. An enormous area to patrol.
I agree duhkkky we seem too focused on the 'Somali' description. These criminals use are in Singapore, Indonesia, Vietnam...all parts of the maritime shipping lanes in between.
Elbro "as for our Navy...like using any military force it takes political will. Something we don't have"
That, my friend, is the WHOLE POINT of my post...the reason we don't have the will, in my opinion, simplifed, is political correctness.
SAM knows a lot about a lot of things, Elbro...you'd be very surprised :-) We've been commenter buddies for many years now..from FPM and now I'm honored to have him (and you!) here.
By the way, so what you're saying is we're focusing on Somalis when many countries are hijacking Western boats? Surely our media isn't calling them all SOMALI PIRATES no matter where they're from, right?
I have a hard time believing SO much water is subject to hijacking...but I'm sure you're right.
SO, what do we DO?
Z;
1 - REAGAN payed them (Khmeini and the Mullahs) a price
2 - and they will paye more if you show them (the Americans) that you are rough.
3 - And if you kill them(the Hostages), they(the Americans) will paye more.
4 - to be able to stop them(the Sea Pirates), you
I know How that works, becaus I was Myself towice RANSOM, but never Hostage
SAM
By the way, so what you're saying is we're focusing on Somalis when many countries are hijacking Western boats? Surely our media isn't calling them all SOMALI PIRATES no matter where they're from, right?
Again I suggest you read that book. This happens everywhere every day from the South China Sea to the Arabian Gulf.
Many nationalities, yes. The book's author was hijacked off of Singapore and he describes incidents off of Indonesia. Our media is so provincial it ignores this sfuff.
When I say we focus on the 'Somali' I mean the term, 'Somali'. The nationalities vary.
How to stop them? Aggressively enforce maritime law. Nations and corporations should stop giving in to their demands for huge ransoms, it's just enabling them. Some countries, as suggested in the books have full time maritime interdictors on the ships themselves. Allow cargo vessels to arm themselves.
SAM, that's what I thought...just wanted to be sure. Thank you.
I guess all presidents do what they need to do .... I just wish more would make choices from INTEGRITY and not HOW IT WILL REFLECT ON THEM AND THEIR UPCOMING ELECTION!
I think most AMericans have thought that, through most of our history, we did NOT pay ransoms because it only creates more hostage-taking....it's upsetting to hear we've bent to the Ayatollahs, etc.
SAM, I should make a whole post of this, but what would you suggest could be the main things to make America's image what it was 25 years ago?
One of the most chilling passages in the book is when Burnett speaks to Deepak, a teenager who as a child witnessed a brutal attack aboard his father's cargo ship that almost killed his sister. After he told his classmates about what happened, one of them declared, "There aren't any pirates! We don't believe you!"
Elmer Brothers;
This not a classical GPS, we have at least 3 types of GPS, the one that I'm talking about is the MILITARY Geolocalisation with TX/RX interactive types, and with an special type, you can survay a big part of the planet and maritim traffics.
You can get the trajectories of the BOATS and their speed, Coupled with the NAVY DATA BANK, you can get the MILITARY and Commericial ships signatures.
This Discussion becomes very sensitive and technical.
I wanted to say that, the Pirates of the GULF of ADAN and SOMALIA are the 21est century's Pirates and have access to your best survay tools.
But, to fight these CRIMINALS, one should attack their FUNDING and SUPPLYING HEADQUARTERS (Iranian REGIME).
SAM
I don't see a way out of any of this until the West acts really strongly, really decisively, which will get quite a bit of PC Backlash, but may at least put a dent in the whole horrid industry it's become.
SAM, some of them may have very sophisticated technical abilities but we've seen really small little bamboo boats with skinny little SOmali pirates attacking huge Western ships and that's astonishing....that they can get away with it.
This not a classical GPS, we have at least 3 types of GPS, the one that I'm talking about is the MILITARY Geolocalisation with TX/RX interactive types, and with an special type, you can survay a big part of the planet and maritim traffics.
you are speaking of the encrypted ones?
but you must have access to GCCS software and at least as far as the US military that is still classified.
I don't see a way out of any of this until the West acts really strongly, really decisively, which will get quite a bit of PC Backlash, but may at least put a dent in the whole horrid industry it's become.
I agree Z. It needs to hurt more to do it then not do it.
some of that equipment SAM is commercial off the shelf....some commercial GPS receivers update at 10hz or better and are accurate to less than a meter.
I get your point about political will.
SAM knows a lot about a lot of things, Elbro...you'd be very surprised :-) We've been commenter buddies for many years now..from FPM and now I'm honored to have him (and you!) here.
If I sounded crass or glib towards him, I meant no offense and I'm not surprised by what he knows. I've seen his comments before. What he is saying is very very interesting to me.
BTW just as an aside the book was published in 2002. Were any of us aware of pirating in that part of the world 10 years ago? I know I wasn't.
A little induction of fear never did anything unhelpful for the security of Americans abroad.
Nothing at all wrong with demonstrating that harming an American citizen will bring the wrath of the United States upon your nation.
Go back to the War of Jenkin's Ear [1739 - 1748] between Britain and Spain (and the first of many times troops from America have been sent to the savage and tribally uncivilized, barbaric continent of Europe to whoop ass). That war started because Spanish sailors boarded a Brtish merchant vessel and cut off the captain's (Jenkins') ear. The war folded into the larger War of the Austrian Succession (one of the many times the eternally primitive, irredeemable tribes of Europe have gone to total war with each other since the days Phillip II of Macedon), but initially was about forcing a respect of a nation's citizen. It was a long and bloody war, one the barbarians that call themselves Spain have yet to recover as a naval power from, but never again did Spain dare to mistreat a British prisoner.
You can take it back even further to the Roman Empire, when the European barbarians inhabiting the Italian Peninsula enforced respect for their own citizens abroad.
It's about sovereignty. These Americans were snatched by pirates in international waters.
That, in more civilized times, would be considered an act of war.
Kill Americans, have your nation reduced to wasteland. No exceptions.
To answer the overall question, no, "political correctness" didn't kill the four kidnapped Americans.
Somali pirates did.
"Political correctness" merely keeps the timid leftist in the White House from extracting a price of vengeance for it.
Sort of like when Clinton responded to the bodies US troops in Somalia on a humanitarian mission being dragged through the streets of Moghadishu by Ducky's "innocent villagers" by doing not a damned thing.
El.Br.;
at 2006, Hezbollah of Libanon, fired a sea/sea missile to an Israili's SHIP and damaged it from 22 miles away, the Israili warship was on Patrole with at least 14 miles of speed.
The Missile was an modified Chinese missile, but, Geolocaliser!!
I know that the chinese don't have that Technology.
I found the data Transmission channel and Satellite, and the TX SITE and the MainStation RX SITE;
Then, they Targeted the JAIFA TRAINSTATION very pricisely with a 150 miles medium range SKUD TYPE and 150KG warhead, the head was not charged CHIMIC.
Without those NAVY CLASSIFIED LOCALISERS, it is impossible to hit so precisely the targets on movement( the Israeli Military Boat).
And it was a Patrol Boat and not a BATIMENT de WAR.
SAM
Or, to take it to the 1979 Iranian hostage example, when Jimmy Carter was faced with Iranian Islamic revolutionaries taking the American embassy hostage, those revolutionaries also took the Soviet Union's embassy hostage as well.
The Soviet hostages were released soon after the Iranian terrorists started recieving body parts of their families in the mail from the Spetnaz.
SAM,
Could you pick a language and stick with it please? When you blend English with French it becomes incoherent and hard to understand.
All I can say about our GCCS is that it doesn't normally track pther allied vessels in real time ams as far as I know individual vessels can stop being tracked anytime they wish. I'm sure there are other technologies that I'm not aware of but it was one way for us to see our vessels in any theater in real time. These were military vessels only.
Beamish "A little induction of fear never did anything unhelpful for the security of Americans abroad."
Not using 'a little induction of fear' is acting in political correctness not correctness.
I have to go :-(
See you all in a few hours.
Thanks SO much for contributing...keep it up!
Thank you Beamish for the Soviet hostages, it's amazing that an American knows this old history, it is exat and veredict.
And Excuse me for the Mixture of the tow languages;
All the people do not have your wealth of the literature, and my english is a technical english, when I miss a sentence, I return to FRENCH to fulfil my handicap.
This was my best excuse or PRETEXT.
But I feel that, even with my best excuse you will trp me.
You are absolutly right, I will stop my double language.
SAM
Beamish please;
Write that story of the Soviet Hostages of LIBANON, it will be a good education to how to answer to the kidnappers.
Your technic of writing is fantastic, and some people like me will be educated twice.
SAM
That's basically the story, SAM.
The Soviet Union / Russia responds to Islamic terrorism and hostage-taking with brutal, overwhelming force.
No Islamic terrorists have taken Russians hostage and lived to gloat about it.
Iran, Lebanon, Chechnya.... You mess will Russians, they'll do everything they can to make you pay dearly for it.
The United States used to be that way. Any attack on Americans at sea or in a port on on land anywhere in the world used to elicit a swift, uncompromising response:
The Barbary pirates, wars against various native American tribes on the frontier, Mexico, Greytown in Nicaragua, Paraguay, the Civil War against Democratic Party insurectionists, Spain, Cuba, the Phillipines, Haiti / Dominican Republic, World Wars I and II, Korea, Vietnam...
America pretty much stopped defending itself under Jimmy Carter, and except for the Reagan years and under George W. Bush, has maintained that pussilanimous response.
Elmers Brother;
10 Hz of precision is amazing,
More important is the tracking answering time, specially for a target on movement.
The missile should be locked on the recieving signal with no intruption in the recieving signal, so the Tracking Satellites should be the own satellites and strategical satellites, for that level of precision the corrolated signal from atleast 11 birds is necessary.
And Hezbollah and Passdaran and Iran are far from having those systems(I mean Sattelite control centers).
So, Someone(an allied power of the USA) should submit it to IRAN?!!!
USA was ready and did(bombed ) the spys of a powerful nation to stop them to touch and dismantle the scrambling modules of a crushed F14.
So, the only answer is "POLITICS",
Because your soldiers will never submit thses tools to the enemy.
SAM
@Mark - We can't defend Americans. That would upset Obama.
------------------
A reminder that Obama mounted a successful rescue mission and has encouraged long prison terms for pirates.
As a result the pirates are less likely to bargain with an American naval vessel.
I once again wonder how parents can send their 16-year old daughter around the world in a sailboat, knowing full well that piracy is a huge problem off the coast of China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, north of Indonesia, and all along the east coast of Africa. Similarly, I wonder how people did not factor this in to their plans to distribute bibles. I understand placing one’s faith in the Lord, but I also think the Lord does not endorse stupidity.
Piracy is a problem because piracy is a money making proposition. Every shred of evidence collected so far indicates that capital risk is low; it is one hell of an opportunity for people with no other vocation available to them. Moreover, piracy is part of Øbama’s plan to put more Somalis (and Kenyans) back to work.
We won’t see many Russian flagged vessels sitting idly in pirate coves because the Russians won’t put up with it. Is there a lesson here for the US and Western European appeasers? Our Navy can react to piracy, but they’ve been ordered to “stand to.” As an aside, have I mentioned what a great idea it was to elect Øbama our commander-in-chief?
Duhkkky whether Obama ordered the attack during the Alabama Maersk is speculative. More likely navy commanders took it it upon themselves, Obama be damned.
For one, who in their right mind would jump into shark infested waters in order to have a nice swim? The same goes for people who will sail into pirate infested waters...
It is a tragedy to see these people killed, that is not in question. The wisdom of their actions can be questioned, along with the fact that these pirates know what the U.S Navy have been ordered to do... Nothing. It isn't the inability of the Navy, for they have all the power and strength to blow these pirates out of the water. It is a question of having a wet-noodle leadership in the U.S who are afraid to show strength and take action when U.S citizens are threatened.
And this should be an example of exactly what response we will see if ever, God forbid, the U.S is attacked once again on our own soil. If ever we resembled the U.N it is under this administration. It is rather disgusting to watch terrorists, pirates, etc. laugh in the face of the U.S when they used to tremble.
More likely navy commanders took it it upon themselves, Obama be damned.
I'm sure Obama's orders to reduce the risks to the hostages were kept to the letter by the Navy SEAL sharpshooters.
;)
Keep spinning it Elmo. Fact is that there have been a lot more successful rescues and trials since Obama took office. I'm sure you'd love to join the mighty Beamish in decimating the Somali coastline, innocent civilians and all.
No political correctness for you two moy mucho macho stalwarts.
Mustang,
I do not fault the world-travelling Americans at all. That they had Bibles and gave them out wherever their journeys took them is actually ancilliary to the fact. They weren't so much missionaries trying to work inside a country, but rather travelers that passed out Bibles wherever they went.
Regardless of the wisdom of sailing around the world into areas beset by chaos and piracy, it's still international waters, the way out of the "he who has the guns makes the rules" trap is to bring bigger guns to it. Along with their Bibles, they ought have had some firepower with them.
Or, professional navies ought to be cleaning those places out.
I don't think their carrying Bibles has anything to do with anything except for the reason nothing will be done about their deaths.
On the other hand... let, say Greenpeace send their hippy cruise ship in and it gets sacked by Somali pirates....
join the mighty Beamish in decimating the Somali coastline, innocent civilians and all.
Decimate the Somali coastline?
That's insane.
Where would our house-to-house trained killers stage their offensive from if the ports and coves were rendered unsuitable for amphibious landings?
Where did you learn to plan a war, Ducky? Alinsky's flophouse?
Keep spinning it Elmo. Fact is that there have been a lot more successful rescues and trials since Obama took office. I'm sure you'd love to join the mighty Beamish in decimating the Somali coastline, innocent civilians and all. No political correctness for you two moy mucho macho stalwarts.
what others have there been duhkkky besides the Alabama Maersk?
I wouldn't waste the bombs on Somalia.
I'll just wait for Obama to print more money, raise taxes and then watch both of you starve.
the Navy's is a lot smaller then you think duhkkky.
I haven't heard any suggestions from you. I suppose we could try to feed them again only to have some warlord steal it and we could watch American bodies be dragged through the streets of Mogadishu or some other place.
Your ideas haven't worked before duhkkky. As far as I'm concerned you're on the hind tit on this one. Unless of course the pirates would stop for a subscription to Netflix...in which case stand by your phone.
On the other hand... let, say Greenpeace send their hippy cruise ship in and it gets sacked by Somali pirates....
you may be on to something Beamish.
Beamish, it doesn’t matter if they were handing out bibles or popsicles; I never once made that an issue. I’m simply stating an obvious fact: a decision to run that gauntlet produced an expected result. As Leslie said, if you swim with man-eating fish, don’t be surprised if you suddenly become the main course. These people used poor judgment, and the costs to them could not be higher.
I disagree with you that these are international waters. They are only international waters when the international community reinforces that concept. So far, only the Russians and US Navy reinforce the Law of the Sea. If there are 600 hostages, then we can anticipate that at some point there will be 1,000 simply because we (collectively) lack the will to pounce on these idiots —even if doing so places hostages in harm’s way.
I will say it another way:
The only people to blame for the deaths of these four Americans are the ones who fired the shots that killed them.
In all cases, they had the choice to kill or not kill, and they chose to kill. They are the only ones to blame, no matter how foolhardy the victims.
If a woman walks down a dark alley dressed and acting like a cheap hooker, and gets raped, is she to blame?
No one here would say she is, so how does this situation not apply?
Foolhardy? Probably. To blame? No.
With the pathetic excuse of a president in office, I can almost guarantee that he directed our soldiers to stand down.
You do understand ducky that 1 of the best things about our military is that the on scene commander can make decisions like this
Ducky you should have your testosterone levels checked
"your testosterone levels checked..."
You're kidding right? You mean estrogen I think.
Ducky;
I'm not Democrat or Republican, I'm not concerned with your internal parties.
I'm just a survival, and 3400 of my comrads are hostage now.
The American Military who have to protect our people (because we have signed individually the agreements with your MNF on 2003) is there, but they do not interven, they have got order not to interven.
We have all your soldiers sympathy, they became crazy to stay there and to see that the thugs kill us, we see that it is unsustainable for your soldiers, but, they have got order from DC to not to interven.
Stopping the THUGS, sometimes is very very easy, if BUSH and Obama had left the Military who is in the batle field to decied, you had kept IRAQ as a democratic an allied nation, instead of having a proxy of the Mullahs there as Government.
It is the same for Afghanistan, your politics do and repeat the same errors that they did in IRAQ.
And you will leave Afghanistan by offering this poor country to the most corrupted thugs who become the servants of the Mullahs of IRAN.
Ducky, infront of a WEAPON, if you negociate, you become complice.
Infront of the THUGS if you negociate, you put en danger the innocents when you leave the field.
Ducky, when you see the Hijackers and Pirats and the Thugs and you do not fire, and you show only your weapons and your uniforms, it's like that you have signed and sealed a permission card to the Pirates to govern the field when you leave.
This kind of Worms should be eradicated by NAPALM.
Do you let a baby alone with a wolf?
if your answer is yes, so, you do consider those babies the babies of your lethal enemies, and worse, because the Babies should be saved even if they are the babies of your enemies.
the history of the USA POLITICS on these kind of situations is VERY SAD and SHAMEFUL, very sorry to tell you that American politics is the SHAREHOLDER of the PIRATES;
Look, you say that Obama has ordered a long term jail for the Pirates!!!
"BRAVO OBAMA"
POOR NAVY
SAM
Elbro, sorry, I didn't think you had any untoward feeling for SAM, just wanted you to know he's got an amazing life!
And no, who knew about pirating a few years ago? Why NOW?
Ducky "As a result the pirates are less likely to bargain with an American naval vessel"
and tickled pink to kill the less able to defend themselves....GOOD JOB, Obama! That's that, we don't have to worry again.
Mustang "We won’t see many Russian flagged vessels sitting idly in pirate coves because the Russians won’t put up with it. Is there a lesson here for the US and Western European appeasers? Our Navy can react to piracy, but they’ve been ordered to “stand to.” As an aside, have I mentioned what a great idea it"
i.e. POLITICAL CORRECTNESS did kill them, in essence, right?
Mark...well said.
Leticia....isn't it sad?
Leslie, the whole world laughs instead of trembling, but THAT is the leftist political correctness in full bloom; Lefties can't take the idea of anybody TREMBLING at our power, it's 'not nice', 'who are WE to continue to be the world power, it's someone else's turn now'...we hear that a lot. Yet, when you ask "which country do you nominate to take over?", they disappear.!
SAM, what a fantastic reminder to us all, GREAT comment, thank you so much.
You make such sense, but our Americans today are somewhat softened. Our soldiers are still strong and amazing and sacrificing, but many Americans wouldn't fight for this country for any amount of money. They leave that to the Conservatives who love this country and who do understand there is a threat.
Ducky often calls Conservatives "bedwetters", implying that we worry about Islamo-terrorism for nothing. Could you fill us in on your feelings about this? Are Conservatives unnecessarily worried ? ;-)
What were the others, Elmo?
The Russians had a successful operation, the ROK pulled off a very tricky operation, or are you one of those who thinks that only the American military has commandos and snipers?
Ducky, you asked Elbro "you one of those who thinks that only the American military has commandos and snipers?"
You know Elbro this well and you have to insult him with that?
The Russian Military acts like a Machine, they are there just to kill, no matter the victim is an pirate or an hostage.
Russian Military, anytime enterred in the operation field, left the victims where the Number of the hostages killed is 3 times more than the Pirates corps.
First they GAS the field, and when they enter, they fire on all who move, if a kid can not breath and wants to escape from that gas room, he is killed immediatly.
The Chechen Terrorists who want to take more victims, find the Russian forces a very efficient tool for extermination of the hostages.
If you become hostage one day, you have more chance to stay alive without Russian intervention.
You have never seen COMMUNIST ANDROIDES who look like humans.
But worst than Russian ROBOTS and worst than all kinds of PIRATS are the QODS FORCES, and Islamic Terrorists who are ORDERED BY THE SUPREM LEADER.
And the SUPREM LEADER says that he is the WILL AND ORDER OF GOD on the EARTH, that's why your OBAMA wants to treat with the REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD, and that's why CLINTON and HIS STATE DEPT. Madelaine Albright bought the Misery for Midel east and 9/11 for you and the Islamic Nuclear BOMB for the planet earth.
This is a GOOD DEAL DUCKY, what do you think.
The American left and LIBERALS engage the superpower into such a diabolic deals that 10 BUSHS can not take it out.
in the OTHER HAND, you the Americans, you are a great nation, and GOD had offered you the priviledge to live in a wonderfull land with no limit, if you do not protect the ones who have not your wealth and your power, the other part of the world will sink in slavery, and you have to isolate and close yourself in your borders.
and the borders could never be totally shielded.
You have to take your responsabilities, any nation saved, will be your allieds, and the whole planet will become your garden.
How do you want your kids to look at this world, from a closed window?
SAM
SAM, did you know Massoud of Afghanistan by any chance?
No I didn't know Massoud;
Massoud was killed by two false reporters, they had smugled their weapons inside their Cameras.
They were coming from the ALALAM TV (An Iranian Mullahs TV).
The last mistake of Comandant Massoud was his open gate with the Mullahs of TEHRAN.
He was believing that Shiit and Sunnit Islamists were the BLOODY enemies of each other.
This kind of MISUNDERSTANDING is LETHAL for a leader and his people.
SAM
Z;
the resemblance of the names was amazing, no!
did you told her?
SAM
SAM, no, I didn't tell her. But, I know it's not the same person.
And, yes, I knew all about the Massoud killing...I was very upset about it and, even then, though I wasn't interested yet in the region or much into politics, I felt it was a very bad omen. It sure was.
Mustang,
I've scanned over the US Constitution a few times, and I still can't find where a Somali pirates' right to breathe is listed.
;)
We used to have a Navy large enough to continuously patrol international waters and keep them safe for trade and travel.
And then we went to war for eight years and lost:
- 709,000 regular active duty personnel
- 293,000 reserve troops
- 8 Army divisions
- 20 Air Force and Navy air wings with 2,000 combat aircraft
- 232 strategic bombers
- 19 strategic ballistic missile submarines with 3,114 nuclear warheads on 232 missiles
- 500 ICBMs with 1,950 warheads
- 4 aircraft carriers and 121 surface combat ships and submarines plus all the support bases, shipyards, and logistical assets needed to maintain such a naval force.
This "war" was one of the most devastating to the US military, yet not one shot was fired.
We lost all of that military power listed above during President Clinton's defense budget cuts over 8 years.
Duhkkky The context was this current administration you dim bulb.
Elbro,
Ducky forgot that the Russian military isn't under Obama's command.
Speaking of "Russian Machines", it seems like the NBA and the New Jersey Nets have been plucked by a "Russian Machine", Mikhail Prokhorov. He seems also to be what some might call the new breed of "American Capitalist". He plans to move his team to Brooklyn where he'll have a "state of the art arena" built on the route of 9 subway lines and one train line. And like all gos state capitalists he's cashing in at the expense of the taxpayers who'll foot the bill as usual for the construction to the tune of billions of dollars.
And he does have the dead eyes of the android automaton, IMO.
http://ori.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=3000007110&play=1
Waylon
Waylon, here in LA they're talking about a new team and a new stadium (God forbid)...totally raised money, no tax dollars at all.
Now, I don't believe that, but that's what the mayor and the developers are saying.
The linked video was stop/start choppy, couldn't watch it.
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