Monday, August 6, 2012

Guest Post

Mustang Sends …

Many years ago, founding father Benjamin Franklin told us, “Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.  I guess we weren’t paying much attention in the aftermath of the events on 9/11 … when the president and an emotional congress rushed through the Patriot Act.  After looking at the Patriot Act, I concluded that it didn’t affect me.  I’m not a terrorist; I don’t have anything to hide.

A few years later, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano (Obama appointee) classified military veterans, Christians, and gun owners as potential “right wing extremists.”  I presumed then that this was simply the ranting of a far left loon.  Who in their right mind would regard patriots as “the enemy?”  But then I read a post at Always on Watch by Sam Huntington, a frequent commenter here at Geeez.  He voiced concern about the use of remotely piloted planes to surveil American citizens.  He wrote:

“It is no leap in logic to assume that a government capable of employing robotic planes and ground weapons against foreigners is equally capable of employing them against their own citizens —particularly when highly-placed officials regard certain classes of citizens as ‘bible carrying right wing extremists.’”

“All of these things will come to visit an America disinterested in resisting such nonsense.  Know this truth: we are using drones to kill Pakistani civilians today, and we are using them to ensure “domestic security” here at home.  Government assures us, “Our National Security demands it.”  Such claims suggest an advanced stage of idiocy.”

Still, who really wants to imagine their government would use remotely piloted vehicles against them?  Besides, our Bill of Rights protects us from the government.  One of these is the Fourth Amendment, which reads: “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated …”

But then I found this headline in the news: Court Upholds Domestic Drone Use in Arrest of American Citizen (Source).  This case began when six cows belonging to a neighbor wandered onto the property of a North Dakota farmer.  When the farmer refused to return the cows, police appeared with a warrant.  The farmer informed the police he’d shoot anyone who stepped foot on his property.  He may have overlooked the whole “warrant upon probable cause” provision.  So the Department of Homeland Security offered the use of a remotely piloted drone to surveil the North Dakota farmer.  Ultimately, he surrendered and is now on trial.

Ordinarily, most people would shrug this off.  Like me in previous years, they might conclude that this is a non-issue.  After all, the drone didn’t fire Hellfire missiles into the farmer’s house.  And besides, with tens of millions of Muslims threatening us with Jihad, security is very important.  On the other hand, if the Department of Homeland Security can employ drones against a farmer over six cows, what else can the government do that the courts will uphold? 

I would enjoy reading a lawyer’s opinion about this, if there are any out there … along with the views of our readership.

Z:  Thanks, Mustang, for having written this..........Readers, fire away!

242 comments:

1 – 200 of 242   Newer›   Newest»
Ed Bonderenka said...

You're right (of course).
Back when we had a fairly decent president in place (and a terrorist threat), the Patriot Act didn't seem like an unreasonable response. It seemed the tin foil hat crowd was overreacting.
But sure enough, some tools, in the wrong hands, are a recipe for trouble.
I'm not sure the Patriot Act is a problem (I'm not conversant with all it's provisions), but this socialist, unbound by the Constitution, crowd in power is.
Let's face it:
The people have given over control to a king. There is no outcry from congress in the courts to stop the executive orders, the drones (remember the anti-assassination outcry during the Ford years from the democrats?), the "fairness".
You want a lawyers' opinion?
Usually they want paid for those.
Then someone pays another lawyer for a different opinion.
Good post.

Always On Watch said...

After looking at the Patriot Act, I concluded that it didn’t affect me. I’m not a terrorist; I don’t have anything to hide.

Same here.

I never imagined how a tool such as the Patriot Act could be used as a method of oppression in the United States. America! For God's sake.

Yet, here we are with the realization that the word "terrorist" could be defined as anyone who opposes an American administration or who skirts regulations (legally, even).

The case cited in this post should be setting off alarms. But are many Americans paying attention? I don't think so.

Boiling the frog -- that's what is transpiring.

Ducky's here said...

If you're a leftist or a minority you're pretty much used to "stop and frisk" and other government intrusions.

We used to say "Hi" to the agents who had the phones tapped at the Boston Catholic Worker house.

Been going on a long time and I laugh my rocks off at the self satisfied who live such reprehensibly "perfect" lives they don't see the reason for the militarization of the police.

We were trying to tell you.

Robert Sinclair said...

I’m no lawyer, but I think the owner of the animals has a right to recover his property. He must rely on the police to achieve that. The police are obligated to get a warrant, serve the warrant, and take the farmer into custody so that he can answer to any charges filed. Either the police can use a drone to observe what is actually going on at the farmhouse, which is using the least amount of force necessary to achieve the arrest while protecting the lives of police officers, or they could have reenacted the infamous Ruby Ridge incident. Which is better?

Craig said...

After looking at the Patriot Act, I concluded that it didn’t affect me. I’m not a terrorist; I don’t have anything to hide.

Try Googling 'patriot act abuses' or better yet, 'national security letters'. Once you get a 'letter', you are under a gag order to not tell anyone you received the letter or you will be prosecuted.. Ask the librarians or people who went to the wrong website if they thought they had anything to hide? That's right, you can't. Anonymous whistle blowers have shown it is a widespread abuse.

I agree with you Z and Stang. If you think this is a partisan problem, you are wrong. There is tremendous pressure from Security Hawks and the industries that benefit to ramp up surveillance and both parties are guilty of abuse.

There is an industry trade group, The Association For Unmanned Vehicle Systems International (AUVSI), that lobbies congress on behalf of companies like Northrup Grumman, Boeing, Raytheon, Bell Helicopter Textron and General Atomics. There's a House Unmanned Systems Caucus. Just so you know,

drone manufacturers donated a total of $2.3 million to the nearly 60 members of the bipartisan House Unmanned Systems Caucus, according to First Street Research. Most of that, 77 percent, went to Republicans.

The top recipient was Rep. Buck McKeon (R-Calif.), the caucus co-chair who also heads the House Armed Services Committee. He received $176,500 in donations from major defense contractors


I'm with you on this. It's a civil liberties issue, not a partisan issue. Like Ducky said, it's nice to see the scales have dropped from your eyes.

conservativesonfire said...

I was one of the tin.hats that Ed mentioned above. I was, as I am now, living in Venezuela. I was watching CNN Español when Bush annoubced the patriot Act. I was very upset and My wife, a Venezuelan, was alarmed that I had tears in my eyes. I explained to her that America just relinquished their freedoms. The terrorist had won. The patriot Act continues to be renewed with bipartisan support and I am still irate about it. The Patriot Act must be repealed; but who will champion the cause?

Z said...

Re the Patriot Act; For discussion and knowledge sake:
How much of it has kept us safer? How much of it has enabled us to make the terrorist nabs we HAVE made?

Silverfiddle said...

I saw the USMC emblem and knew it was Mustang!

I too fell for the Patriot Act, and am now sorry.

I was also one of those angry vets returning from duty in the Middle East, so I guess I'm on Napoleonitano's list.

US Representative Ted Poe is sponsoring an anti-drone bill

http://www.beaumontenterprise.com/opinions/editorials/article/EDITORIAL-Poe-s-anti-drone-bill-could-undermine-3735527.php

Rand Paul is also fighting back:

http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/12/sen-paul-says-no-to-domestic-drones/

We should support them.

Sam Huntington said...

Thanks for the mention, Mustang. The number of government officials that mouth the oath of office, and upon assuming their position violate it always amazes me. If they are not protecting and defending the Constitution of the United States, they have no business accepting a federal or state salary. There are countless incidents involving shooting deaths of innocent persons when police “storm” the wrong residence, and there are never any penalties beyond an official apology and a hefty payout. We all complain about the political situation in this country, but none of it really matters if we surrender our inalienable rights to a police state.

Mustang said...

@Z … I am certain there are arguments that hold the Patriot Act up as the savior of American lives. Unfortunately, most of this information is classified. We only have the “word” of the witnesses that what they tell us is true. I understand why the government would classify information, if they intend to hide the identity of agents for good. On the other hand, how is “hiding information” good for the right of the people to remain free?

Note: Not long ago, I read where Leon Panetta released the name of the Commander, Seal Team Six to a Hollywood producer. This information appears "no longer available" on the internet.

In Title I, The Patriot Act specifies, “Expansion of National Electronic Crime Task Force Initiative” as a primary intent, and under Title II, “Reviewing Surveillance Authority under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978.” Who knows what this really means? Either way, I guess they weren’t kidding.

From Craig’s sources, the FBI abused their Patriot Act powers more than 1,000 times through 2007. Between 2003 and 2006, the government issued 197,000 National Security Letters (demands for information and gag order). No wonder our prisons are over-populated.

Scotty said...

The people will tolerate the drones just as they tolerate the searches that we must enjoy every time one elects to fly on an airplane!

It's been the frog and the slowly boiling pot for a LONG time! It started long before 9-11.

Mustang said...

@Sam ... the problem is that the oath specifies "..against all enemies, both foreign and domestic." Perhaps our problem is how we determine that a US citizen is a "domestic enemy."

I'm sure this is a problem for the so-called law enforcement "oath takers," too.

I sure wish there were some lawyers out there in the blogosphere who could weigh in.

Ed Bonderenka said...

conservativesonfire,
Sorry.
And I was under the impression domestic drones are currently restricted to milspace.
Recently a hiker was lost on CA and USAF had to get special permission to help.

Jack Whyte said...

Too many government bureaucrats are zealots.
We can’t trust these people.
We must have judicial approval before using drones within the USA.
But then
Judges are lawyers

FrogBurger said...

I didn't like what could create the Patriot Act before when it got passed. In that regard, I was happy to read Libertarians' take on this.

I think it's the sign that we must mistrust government whoever is in power. Repulican or Democrat.

Those people work for themselves, not citizens. If we give them a pass, they'll abuse their power.

FrogBurger said...

Likewise, after reading the bank bailout bill, I was in shock nobody got upset a clause that stipulated that no citizen could file a lawsuit against the government for misuse of the money. We, through our supposedly elected representatives, authorized the gov to dispatch funds to their friends.

Such a clause would have been anticonstitutional in France since no law can eliminate the right of any citizen to file a lawsuit against his/her administration. I wish the US constitution had this.

FrogBurger said...

I personally wouldn't mind if people started shooting down those drones :)

FrogBurger said...

I read this article in Reason a year ago I believe on the increase use of SWAT teams by gov agencies as well. You've all read about the FDA raids against raw milk vendors.

Overall, there's a huge problem with federal agencies enforcing regulations that didn't go through Congress. Or regulation that become law because the bill wasn't specific enough as far as its implementation.

Sam Huntington said...

“All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.” —Thomas Jefferson

Bob said...

From my perspective, the thing about the Patriot Act is that it was not unusual, and portions were already in effect in the war on drugs.

We are all familiar with situations where local and federal law enforcement seized the property and bank accounts of citizens because of a suspicion of drug dealing.

They didn't even need probable cause. The possession of large amounts of cash was all they needed. There are all sorts of reasons to do business in cash like the American Pickers on tv, auctioneers, livestock traders, etc.

The drug situation may be why Ducky was knowledgeable way back when. I am still on his side. It is none of the government's business what I do in my home, or how much money is in my bank account, or how much cash I carry.

Deep down, I think we are all libertarians.

Jack Whyte said...

The first challenge is to convince citizens that what their government is doing diminishes American liberty. The second challenge is to motivate citizens to communicate with their elected representatives. However, none of this will prevent our free fall into the abyss of tyranny; none of it will dismantle what the government has constructed while we slept.

Pris said...

"Boiling the frog -- that's what is transpiring"

Yes AOW, I concur.

Most of us believe we have nothing to hide, including me. But, new laws are passed everyday.

Many of them we're not even aware of. What's acceptable today, may not be acceptable or legal tomorrow, and there's the rub!

I don't see the difference between unmanned drones watching us, or the Gestapo, or the KGB.

The drones can be, and it seems possibly are, simply a modern technological form of surveillance instead of people. But the purpose of either can be used for the same reason.

We all should be calling our representatives, and informing them of the fact that, a citizenry which is under constant surveillance, is no longer free, and has lost what it means to be an American!

"It's been the frog and the slowly boiling pot for a LONG time! It started long before 9-11."

Yes Scotty, so true!
However, if we objected we were told we're paranoid. Many don't want to recognize the truth and when they finally do, it's too late!

Ducky's here said...

Pris, what you have to figure out is that it has nothing to do with "nothing to hide".
The militarization is there to keep people quiet, stop any protest and ghettoize the poor.

Train in the tunnel.

FrogBurger said...

Pris it's not because we have nothing to hide that it implicitly authorizes the government to have access to any information.

The same logic would make you a criminal until proven innocent.

FrogBurger said...

Now I'm wondering about private property laws. Does anybody know what governs the airs/skys above your house? Is there a minimum height that is considered private property? How does this work?

Ducky's here said...

Here's how it works Froggy. Since it was okay to do anything you like so long as the target was a Muslim or #occupy it's your turn.

You helped unleash this just as links to pus people like Robert Spencer and Pam Geller help dial up the hate that erupted against the Sikhs in Wisconsin.

It is amusing to watch the right play the victim here.

FrogBurger said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mark Adams said...

We the People are the rightful master of both Congress and the Courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who would pervert the Constitution. ~Abraham Lincoln.

FrogBurger said...

Plus Ducky you apparently can't read.

Instead your hatred for others who don't share your communist point of view makes you skip my comment about the Patriot Act when it was enacted.

You're such a vile human being.

That was for the polite version of the FU.

Liberalmann said...

FrogBurger said:'your communist point of view'
---

Oh, the uninformed right and their 'communist' bullshit. Wait, I thought we were socialists, no, marxists....Lol!

Bob said...

FB said, "Plus Ducky you apparently can't read"

I think it is the drugs.

Then Ducky says "Since it was okay to do anything you like so long as the target was a Muslim or #occupy it's your turn." He neglects to admit that there is a reasonable rationale to being suspicious of the occupy gangsters and Muslim jihadi's.

Then Ducky jumps the tracks with this gem. "You helped unleash this just as links to pus people like Robert Spencer and Pam Geller help dial up the hate that erupted against the Sikhs in Wisconsin." This is particularly ignorant. When I looked up Spencer and Geller, they are just bloggers who are anti-jihadist. Geller is Jewish (not sure about Spencer) and this is a perfectly rational position.

Ducky, Sikh's are not Muslims. Sikh's have no jihad against Western Civilization.

Mustang said...

Frog Burger, try to remember that much like Saturn's rings, lunar forces have a profound impact on Ducky.

As to your question, I think the courts have held that no one has the expectation of privacy when in public. I believe government has a right to overfly anyone’s property below 800 feet with a proper warrant, but with high-resolution cameras, the issue appears moot.

Craig said...

First they came for the Old Black Panthers, and I did nothing. Then they came for the Skinheads, and I did nothing. They came for the anti war protestors, the Mooslims and the Occupiers, and I cheered. Then, then they came for the milk cows. Time to get mad.

Anonymous said...

Liberalmann, you really are an ignorant ass and I think you need to change your pseudonym. You are about as narrow minded as any fool can possibly be.

~Louie

Ducky's here said...

z, quit censoring when Froggy is getting his clocked clean.

After all he's the one who said F--- You and that was perfectly okay.

Let him be a man.

Liberalmann said...

Socialist ..Communist.....little difference...we're all still slaves under both systems

Liberalmann said...

And if this guy is a white supremacist
...MT guess is he has closer ties to the demonrats...they are the party of the KKK after all

Liberalmann said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Elmers Brother said...

FB censored himself duhkkkboy

Anonymous said...

“Let every politician know, whether they wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of American liberty.” ~Louie

FrogBurger said...

"Oh, the uninformed right and their 'communist' bullshit. Wait, I thought we were socialists, no, marxists....Lol!"

First off, Ducky advocates for democratic socialism. If you were an educated human being you'd know that democratic socialism has been implemented in countries like the former GDR. For having been in GDR, it is like communism. You see, I saw the tanks of the Red Army when I was there. So what else can it be?

Secondly, I don't even know why I'm trying to educate you since you end all your sentences with LOL. At this level it's pretty desperate.

FrogBurger said...

Ducky,

1. You don't read what I wrote.
2. Your vile personality makes me say things I didn't say.
3. Then like a baby, you come to your mommy crying after the child you bullied hit you.

In real life, I wouldn't have stayed polite. The good thing about blogs is that I can delete my comment.


I'm coming back on the blog, positive, trying to avoid nastiness and you shoot first.

Politeness and respect have to be deserved. And you're a vile human being.

Bob said...

Liberalmann said, "Socialist ..Communist.....little difference...we're all still slaves under both systems"

I know this is tongue in cheek for you, but you seem to think that there are big differences in socialism and Marxism. Maxism, Fascism, and National Socialism are all cousins under the umbrella of socialism. You are correct when you say people under socialism are slaves. That's exactly what Hayek said in his book, The Road To Serfdom.

I suppose this proves that even a stopped clock or a liberal can be right, occasionally, whether intended or not.

Bob said...

Liberalmann keeps it up when he says, "And if this guy is a white supremacist...MT guess is he has closer ties to the demonrats...they are the party of the KKK after all"

Actually, the KKK was founded by Democrats. There were no Republicans in the south,then, unless they were carpetbaggers. Good call, Libman.

Bob said...

Craig, I think I understand what you are trying to say with, "First they came for the Old Black Panthers, and I did nothing. Then they came for the Skinheads, and I did nothing. They came for the anti war protestors, the Mooslims and the Occupiers, and I cheered. Then, then they came for the milk cows. Time to get mad."

By the use of the word, "they", I take it you mean government. There is no other entity capable of "coming for them" as you suggest. Otherwise, nobody has gone after the "Mooslims" or occupiers, at least not any kind of coordinated effort, especially from the government. Both Bush and Obama went out of their way to NOT implicate the peace loving religion of Islam.

There's a lot of group think going on with liberals and conservatives, but nobody is persecuting those simple minded occupiers, or Muslims in general.

Other than that, I agree with you.

Liberalmann said...

I was totally serious and I'm not Eddie Lowenstein.

Liberalmann said...

I know Bull Connor et al were all Demonrats

Pris said...

"Pris, what you have to figure out is that it has nothing to do with "nothing to hide".
The militarization is there to keep people quiet, stop any protest and ghettoize the poor."

Ducky my point was, in the long run it doesn't matter if we think we have nothing to hide.

Btw, nothing was done to stop the occupiers, and while the tea party needed permits to rally, the occupiers didn't. Why not?

Because they're part of the left's plan, that's why. So don't give me that crap about stopping protests!

It depends on who is doing the protesting. The occupiers, committed vandalism, violence, raping women, and it was all but ignored, and you know it!

Are they on the left considered left wing extremists by Homeland Security Sec'y? Napolitano?

Obama said in a speech in 2008, that "we would need a civilian security force, as well equipped and funded as our military". Gee, I wonder who will make up that force!

FrogBurger said...

"we would need a civilian security force, as well equipped and funded as our military".

If he said that, that meant having the Stasi. Pretty scary stuff.

Elmers Brother said...

I'm curious how does conservatives "ratcheting up the hate" explain the eighteen attacks on churches in the last ten years?

Elmers Brother said...

Spring 2012 - Aurora Colorado Recently released prisoner kills former girlfriend before being shot by off duty policeman

February 14, 2010 - Richmond, California - Three hooded men
walk into Gethsemane Church of God in Christ and opened
fire and then fled the scene, as the singing of the choir
was replaced by frightened screams. The two victims, a 14-
year-old boy and a 19-year-old man, were hospitalized.

March 8, 2009 - Maryville, Illinois - Suspect Terry Joe
Sedlacek, 27, of Troy, walks into the First Baptist Church,
and shoots pastor Fred Winters dead, point blank. Several
church members are injured by a knife in the struggle to
capture after the attack, The suspect also had stabbed
himself, but survived, when his gun jams.

July 27, 2008 - Knoxville, Tennessee - A gunman opens fire
in a church during a youth performance, killing two people
and injuring seven.

Dec. 9, 2007 - Colorado - Three people are killed and five
wounded in two shooting rampages, one at a missionary
school in suburban Denver and one at a church in Colorado
Springs. The gunman in the second incident is killed by a
guard.

May 20, 2007 - Moscow, Idaho - A standoff between police
and a suspect in the shootings of three people in a
Presbyterian Church ended with three dead, including one
police officer.

Aug. 12, 2007 - Neosho, Missouri - First Congregational
Church - 3 killed - Eiken Elam Saimon shot and killed the
pastor and two deacons and wounded five others.

May 21, 2006 - Baton Rouge, Louisiana - The Ministry of
Jesus Christ Church - 4 killed - The four at the church who
were shot were members of Erica Bell's family; she was
abducted and murdered elsewhere; Bell's mother, church
pastor Claudia Brown, was seriously wounded - Anthony Bell,
25, was the shooter.

Feb. 26, 2006 - Detroit, Michigan - Zion Hope Missionary
Baptist Church - 2 killed + shooter - Kevin L. Collins, who
reportedly went to the church looking for his girlfriend,
later killed himself.

April 9, 2005 - College Park, Georgia - A 27-year-old
airman died after being shot at a church, where he had once
worked as a security guard.

March 12, 2005 - Brookfield, Wisconsin - Living Church of
God - 7 killed + shooter - Terry Ratzmann opened fire on
the congregation, killing seven and wounding four before
taking his own life.

July 30, 2005 - College Park, Georgia - World Changers
Church International - shooter killed - Air Force Staff
Sgt. John Givens was shot five times by a police officer
after charging the officer, following violent behavior.

Dec. 17, 2004, Garden Grove, Calif.: A veteran musician at
the Crystal Cathedral shoots himself to death after a nine
-hour standoff.

Oct. 5, 2003 - Atlanta, Georgia - Turner Monumental AME
Church - 2 killed + shooter - Shelia Wilson walked into the
church while preparations are being made for service and
shot the pastor, her mother and then herself.

Elmers Brother said...

June 10, 2002 - Conception, Missouri - Benedictine
monastery - 2 killed + shooter - Lloyd Robert Jeffress shot
four monks in the monastery killing two and wounding two,
before killing himself.

March 12, 2002 - Lynbrook, New York - Our Lady of Peace
Catholic Church - 2 killed - Peter Troy, a former mental
patient, opens fire during Mass, killing the priest and a
parishioner. He later receives a life sentence.

May 18, 2001 - Hopkinsville, Kentucky - Greater Oak
Missionary Baptist Church - 2 killed - Frederick Radford
stood up in the middle of a revival service and began
shooting at his estranged wife, Nicole Radford, killing her
and a woman trying to help her.

Sept. 15, 1999 - Fort Worth, Texas - Wedgewood Baptist
Church - 7 killed + shooter - Larry Gene Ashbrook shot dead
seven people and injured a further seven at a concert by
Christian rock group Forty Days in Fort Worth, Texas before
killing himself.

April 15, 1999 - Salt Lake City, Utah - LDS Church Family
History Library - 2 killed + shooter - Sergei Babarin, 70,
with a history of mental illness, entered the library,
killed two people and wounded four others before he was
gunned down by police.

Z said...

"Oh, the uninformed right and their 'communist' bullshit. Wait, I thought we were socialists, no, marxists....Lol!"


Libmann...No, you're just plain stupid.
"uninformed"...the fact that we are informed really scares you, doesn't it. How's it feel to live in a lib/Communist/Socialist marxist bubble?
Don't forget, Communism is counting on your ridiculous slams at those who recognize it for what it is.

Z said...

Ducky, you need no explanation, but I just got home from work and didn't censor anyone (again).

If Elbro or Mustang deleted you, my hat's off to them, by the way.

Z said...

"ratcheting up the hate"...what a huge darned JOKE


Elbro, thanks for those horrid instances...people need to grow up and realize what's going on.
That's probably a drop in the bucket, and doesn't count when horrible things have happened to churches like unexplained fires, etc.

Impertinent said...

"I personally wouldn't mind if people started shooting down those drones"


We're already labled "terrorists"...so how do we get shoulder fired missiles? At the local swap meet?

I know...the Feds set up a guy whose past includes voting R and they give him the stingers?

Wouldn't surprise me a bit that the feds are in the background on some of these attacks....all to take the guns away from legal owners.

Impertinent said...

Since they've already run an op called "Fast & Furious"...we know the feds are corrupt, dishonest and capable of anything.

Especially all the bored, useless ATF agents justifying their jobs by coming up with such a diabolical plan.

You can be damn sure if it was a "civilian" that got caught in a gun running scheme like they did....they'd already be tried, convicted and the door slammed shut on them. Unless they were Moooslims.

That very thick "bureaucratic" grey line protects the incompetent and government.

Z said...

I've been thinking about this ridiculous "Conservatives are violent, don't care about freedom" BS.

It's Conservatives who FIGHT not to be told what we can and cannot eat or drink.

It's C's who want the gov't OFF our back.

It's C's who will protect ourselves if we must.

It's C's who only balk when we're maligned for saying Merry Christmas, for example. Then balking creates a problem, when the insults for saying it flow in?

It's C's who want gays and straights to just live their lives...just BE

It's C's who want ALL the information, not just the leftie media's version.

It's C's who feel don't indoctrinate our kids but TEACH how to think.

you add to the list, C's......I'm pooped!

Anonymous said...

Conservatives never sent Stuart Smalley to the U. S. Senate.

~Louie

Liberalmann said...

The lefties in Europe have sought ties with the Jihadis

http://www.investigativeproject.org/538/italys-left-wing-terrorists-flirt-with-radical-islamists

Bob said...

liberalmann said, "I was totally serious and I'm not Eddie Lowenstein."

You were serious? You fooled me.

Liberalmann also said, "I know Bull Connor et al were all Demonrats "

You must be careful of the company you keep.

Liberalmann said...

Historically, most global terrorists have been left-wing groups, or splintered factions of left-wing groups.

Lisa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lisa said...

"Libmann...No, you're just plain stupid.
"uninformed"...the fact that we are informed really scares you, doesn't it. How's it feel to live in a lib/Communist/Socialist marxist bubble?
Don't forget, Communism is counting on your ridiculous slams at those who recognize it for what it is"

Perfect response Z. That's where the name "Useful Idiot " comes from.

"Btw, nothing was done to stop the occupiers, and while the tea party needed permits to rally, the occupiers didn't. Why not? "

Pris it is mine and many others personal belief that the occupiers were sent by Obama,being his resume' reads "Street Agitator". I believe it is a strategy to demonize rich people in light of them knowing Romney would be the candidate so they can use all those useless idiots to agitate like they use them in 3rd world countries to pit the citizens against one another while the government continues it's path of tyranny unnoticed.


Hey Elmer thanks for posting that list of Church violence,I was unaware of how long it was. I guess it must be coming from all the hate mongers on the left who hate anything those scary Christians believe in. Far more threatening than those scary "Mooslims"

Z said...

Lisa and Pris....absolutely spot on... There is DEFINITELY such a cabal...leftist president and leftist thugs in the WH, leftist protesters, leftist media, leftist senators, leftist celebrities...

and DENIERS and LIARS.

The WH knows just how to play gullible liberals and they're lapping it up...I'd say like kittens with milk, but that'd be an insult to kittens AND milk.

They Say/We Say said...

In the late 1990's, two men walked down from the mountain in Colorado, dressed in military camouflage and carrying automatic rifles, went into the town (I don't remember the name) and shot and killed all the towns law-enforcement.
Heard it on the radio top of the hour news for that news report only and not a repeat for the next or all day nor anytime later- not even in the papers.

Lisa said...

Never heard that either they say. Like Fort Hood. I bet only cable news watchers know about it.
And I don't mean MSNBC unless they called it "Workplace Violence",at least that's what big sis Janet called it.

They Say/We Say said...

No one stopped the government from using a TANK against a Church, or raiding without a warrant - even when the Inhabited asked for the warrant. The BATF said that it was on the dresser or night stand in the Motel room.
The Attorney General said when asked about the use of force (Military Tanks and Helicopters, and Gas that was flammable) against the Church Members, was just like renting a car from Avis or such!
No one said anything then - and now the Government thinks it can do anything - Precedent is a strong example to inflict on the People!

Lisa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lisa said...

that's right Z they are def the party of propaganda led by Mr. 'Propagnda' Soros himself who pretty much has bought and paid for the White House and the media he is heavily invested in to promote his left wing agenda. Obama is merely his little puppet

Always On Watch said...

Pris,
Most of us believe we have nothing to hide, including me. But, new laws are passed everyday.

Many of them we're not even aware of. What's acceptable today, may not be acceptable or legal tomorrow, and there's the rub!


Here in the D.C. suburbs we are now reduced to dealing with such laws at the local level. We've had this problem for about 10 years now that I know of. But in the past three years, the numbers of zoning regulations have ramped up to the point of being oppressive. Furthermore, the local counties ENCOURAGE reporting one's neighbors for violations, smany of which have never before been violations. On one county web site, the squeal-on-your-neighbor number is prominently placed on the site's home page. I kid you not!

Oh, yes, we have a Democratic Party administration at the county level. And they have been feeling their oats since Obama's election.

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