Tuesday, December 27, 2011

Ugly is as ugly does.......Bill Maher

 Bill Maher may be the saddest, emptiest human being on the planet.   But, I always have...at least since he stopped being really funny and started thinking he was right about faith and anything conservative.   Check THIS out.........an article on his having tweeted about Tim Tebow.

"Wow, Jesus just [screwed] #TimTebow bad! And on Xmas Eve! Somewhere ... Satan is tebowing, saying to Hitler "Hey, Buffalo’s killing them," Maher tweeted.

That's the tweet.....the word "screwed" wasn't the one he used, of course.  You can see the link, verbatim, in the link behind "Maher tweeted."  Neither I nor the writer of the link under "THIS" had the bad taste to publish the actual word Maher, as ever, had the bad taste to use.  I think the owner of the blog I'm linking to only makes one rather silly conclusion, and that's that even Tebow has 100,000 less tweeters than Maher's  872,000.  The fact is that Maher's been known for thirty more years than Tebow, so I'm grateful Tebow's goodness is catching up to Maher's..................ugliness.

I think there really are people who believe Jesus is our butler and, if things go bad, He's not there.  This is a misconception that's so immature, shows such a lack of having read or understood Scripture, and which obviously demeans and mocks everyone who does understand the complexities of faith, that it shows me more about Maher than I ever wanted to know.

I can't hate the man;  he's not worth hurting myself for.  I will ask for prayer for him, however.   The things I have heard, first hand, from people who know him here in Los Angeles, are all bad.  He's a very hollow man.  He needs prayer.


cube said...

I don't worry about Maher and his minions. I figure they're going to get what they deserve.

Z said...

I worry that there are people who buy into his awful stuff.

Leticia said...

Z, you kind of have to pity these misguided people. They absolutely do not know or can even begin to comprehend the gift of Jesus' love for us.

God is not our Genie, he's not our bookie, he's not our real estate agent, he's nothing what the secularists believe. They have it all wrong, in every aspect.

God our Creator, never promised life would be easy and that we would have tribulations, what we ARE promised is everlasting life in His presence.

We are blessed with the precious gift of the Holy Ghost and accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

Z said...

Leticia, that's why I asked for prayer for Maher. He must not be disliked for his folly, he needs help.

Rita said...

Does anyone wonder why we here in the midwest assume all of Hollywood and New York elitists are seriously delusional?

Remember that red/blue map that displays votes broken down by county?

We see people like Maher, Penn, and Sarandon as representative of those areas.

Which, I realize of course, isn't fair.

How do I know?

Ever see tornado victims in Indiana on the news? You would think we all live in trailer parks, have five teeth in our heads and are complete rednecks.

Z said...

Rita, the LA churches I know are packed, so I'd say Maher isn't representative of this kind of thinking toward Tebow around here, but I can't blame people for thinking LA or NYC people are like him.
Obviously, some are, these cities are the 'elitist' bastions of stage and film, but you'd be surprised that there are fabulous, good people here, too, MANY :-)
As many as who aren't toothless wonders living in trailer parks in the Midwest !!

Trixie said...

I cannot figure out why Maher is still on TV. Do people really like him? If so, why? Such a negative and unhappy person.........

Z said...

Hi, Trixie, and thanks for coming by.
He has tons of fans; Heck, I used to like him, too! But not the last five years or so, that's for sure.

If you think it's funny to mock, in as ugly a manner as possible, most of what matters to the majority of Americans, he's your guy!

Ducky's here said...

Two consecutive pick-six last game, Tim?

Well, I don't think you wanted all this media nonsense but then you weren't reluctant to jump in and join the chorus spouting the silliness that the divine gets involved in sporting events.

Lisa said...

I really don't care what Bill Maher's views are,what I care about is that he uses his views to act like he is superior because like all liberals they feel they are more knowing than those who have a different view than them and call them stupid and uneducated. But what I find ironic is that the left embraces the most uneducated of our society.
Plus we also know that with a superiority/Napoleon complex also comes also comes narcissism,arrogance,ignorance,
,conceit and a a whole lot of ugliness.
So I guess we can say that the problem is his,not ours.

Rita said...

Hey Z:

You can imagine how we Hoosiers cringe when those dentally challenged rednecks are the ones making national news.

On the other hand, we have people like Mike Pence.

I'm sure there are some great people out your way (obviously you are among them), it's just we never see them in the media. That's one great thing about the internet. We can find people like you in parts of the country that seem overtaken by fame and fortune and realize there are normal Americans out your way.

That gives me a lot of hope.

Z said...

Ducky, I don't think Tebow gives a damn what you or anybody else thinks. And I doubt if it's any of our business what he's praying when he prays, either. You really think he's saying "gee, Jesus, PLEASE let us win today!"? Maybe he's praying for help to be a man of character, to not have any injuries during the game...

Lisa..it's the smugness that's so hard to take and SO stupid, I agree. Who cares what he thinks?
Except he does influence a lot of that brainless bunch, too, you have to admit.

Rita, we both know that generalizations like that never work. Nobody thinks ALL people in your area are like that and I can't imagine anybody thinking everyone in California is as awful as Maher. People often forget how very close our elections are and how many Republicans we've had the good sense to elect here, too, frankly.
Mike Pence is a terrific guy, you're right! But, so you're bright as they come ... it just never occurred to me to think you are an enigma for being bright or having all your teeth :-)

net observer said...


Well, speaking as the resident atheist here...

Comedian Adam Carolla, also an atheist, has often joked about Bill Maher's reputation around Hollywood as an across-the-board @sshole. From what I've heard, Bill Maher, regardless of what he believes or doesn't believe, is apparently a man of questionable character.

A few weeks ago, Z informed me about Maher's penchant for "barely legal" and sometimes "not-quite-legal-depending-on-what-state-you-reside-in" females. I had to confess to Z that, now that I know that about Maher, it's kind of awkward for me, or any decent person, to vouch for him.

Having said that, Maher's tweet didn't bother me at all. I'll even admit that on a personal level, I thought it was somewhat funny.

Let me state upfront that this brand of humor probably doesn't make a lot of sense, if any, to the average Christian -- especially a Christian with conservative politics.

However, to someone like me, an atheist, who tends to be critical of certain facets of modern-day conservatism; who also watches "The Five" on FoxNews on a regular basis; there is in fact a context in which Maher's tweet was, dare I say, "funny".

But it's more like a "I-wish-he-didn't-do-it-but-he-did-and-I-totally-get-it" funny.

A couple of weeks ago, "The Five" (including their lone liberal Democrat Bob Beckel) went several days, consecutively, rooting for Tim Tebow, making him out to be a protagonist symbol in "the culture war" (something I don't personally buy into).

To be blunt, I got tired of Fox's little crusade. Suddenly, I found myself salivating for a crushing loss for Tim Tebow. And for the record, that's saying a lot for me. In truth, I couldn't care LESS about the NFL. I remembered Tebow's name from his star status days at the college level. But I didn't know anything else about the guy.

I didn't know what team he played for. I didn't know he was a devout Christian (which, btw, is true of a LOT of athletes). I didn't know he was renowned for public displays of his religion (which, frankly, is also true of a lot of athletes).

net observer said...


I didn't know Tebow was having a tough season early on. Nor was I aware of his dramatic comebacks toward the end of the season. Had I known any or all of that stuff, I STILL wouldn't have cared about Tim Tebow or the NFL.

But "The Five" changed all that. They had to turn "Tebowing" into fabricated right-wing political crusade.

What bothers me the most about all this is that there's nothing especially negative or unfair about the attention Tebow has been receiving. Tim Tebow is/was a very public figure in what is arguably America's most popular sport; and in the midst of a what was shaping up to be very Rocky-esque comeback story, which is the kind of story that we as Americans ALL love.

The "problem" here is simple: Tim Tebow expresses his faith in a way that seems unique, but in fact, it isn't. A lot of Christians, Muslims, etc., pray often and with much physical expression. But they aren't typically NFL quarterbacks.

I think some of Tebow's politically motivated fans failed to realize that any public figure in the midst of a real-life soap opera is a prime target for comedians especially -- even if they LIKE him.

Think "Mike Tyson's voice and nutty demeanor", or "Don King's hair and butchering of the English language", or "Michael Phelps' lanky body", etc. Comedians will be poking fun at those guys forever.

If you're a devout Christian, Tebow's situation probably seems a lot different. But if you're an atheist -- especially an anti-religion bomb-thrower like Maher -- it's pretty much the same kind of thing.

In any event, I reiterate, if it weren't for boneheads like Eric "Whats-his-name" on "The Five" turning Tebow into a culture war hero, I'd probably be defending Tebow. But instead, I find myself in the rather awkward position of defending Maher. Thanks, Fox.

Lastly, it's important to note that comedians wouldn't be comedians if they worried too much about the feelings of others. Indeed, every comedian establishes his own boundaries. But all of them, for the most part, throw political correctness out of the window, and that includes conservative political correctness. Very often, comedians say what many decent people WANT to say but CAN'T because of societal norms. (e.g., Chris Rock's "blacks vs n-words" routine).

Maher's tweet, I'm afraid, is arguably an example of this.

beamish said...

I don't believe in the existence of atheists. I just can't muster the faith it takes to believe alleged atheists are not just merely irreverent and / or irreligious.

Especially those who can't "prove" their atheism without referencing religion or theology.

We just have to take their words for it that they don't believe in God. A task made less incredible if they didn't talk about God exponentially more often than believers do.

Rita said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

"Leticia, that's why I asked for prayer for Maher."

Personally I don't have time to waste on people that are and always will be ..irredeemable.

Would I pray for Armadinnerjob? Hitler? Pol Pot? Or even Hitchens?

Rita said...

*Ooops* Typo correction......

I don't have issues with comedians making jokes about politics, religion or race. What I do have an issue with is someone who uses their "fame" to say hateful remarks against anyone that doesn't believe exactly like they do.

If Maher was an equal opportunity basher it would be seen in a different light. Instead he targets people personally.

Politicians are fair game but NOT their children. I don't find one thing funny about anyone who insults Obama's children (although I actually don't recall anyone doing that) just as I did not find it funny when people decided that Sarah Palin's baby should be used as a punchline.

When the jokes are actually humorous rather than hateful, I will laugh when someone lands a good one on midwestern, Christian hicks. A true comedian finds some bits of truth and turns into into something which we can all laugh about.

Not that I watched it, but does anyone remember when South Park made fun of Christians, no one seemed to have issues with it? Isaac Hayes certainly had no issues with making fun of Christians, but when they turned the tables and joked about his religion, he quit.

When there is hatred in the supposed "comedy", then it's not comedy, it's just hate.

He's entitled to say whatever he wants on twitter and I'm allowed to think Bill Maher is just a vile POS.

Anonymous said...

Net...I wasn't ignoring the question you asked me a few days ago...One..I don't have an answer. No one does and two...I got wrapped up in wrappings and all that good stuff.

Rita said...

Z: I don't believe I've ever claimed to have all my teeth or not live in a trailer park or not talk like a hick. ;)

OK, the first two don't apply. Not making any claims about sounding like a hick. I try, but distinctly remember walking out of a restaurant in Rome after having a couple of "adult beverages". When the Ethopian umbrella bum would NOT get out of my way no matter how many times I said no, I let out a very loud, "GIT". That's hick for "scat".

I'm not sure what git might mean in Ethipion or Italian, but I'll tell you whatever it is, it made him VERY MAD!

You can't take the country out of the girl.

Rita said...

Wait, now I'm wondering if the term "scat" refers only to people like Ella Fitzgerald in Hollywood. Out here in the sticks we use "scat" and "git" to shew away the critters.

Z said...

net, do you really not think we get the humor of Maher's tweet? Or, better yet, do you think none of us thought that when Tebow lost? Not to the nasty extent Maher did, but there is that "is he praying for help and Jesus let him DOWN?" aspect. ("Oh, for JOY, for JOY the atheists cry!") That's just silly and people who study the scripture and know better ..well, KNOW better! But, there is that. As I said to Ducky above, I'm doubting he prays for a WIN; I'm thinking he prays nobody's hurt in the game and other things like that.

For the record, I believe you're mostly wrong about humor and the Right... Man, use humor about Obama some time with a leftist and see how outraged he gets. it's unbelievable!
I LOVE Redneck jokes (as I'm sure Rita does :-) And I have a sense of humor about a LOT of evangelist goons, etc., but this was a LITTLE out of the realm of good taste.

And do you really think THE FIVE would have to lionize Tebow if they weren't so relieved that somebody was actually exhibiting the faith that approximately 80% of Americans claim? See, when it's someone famous and someone kids look up to, that's a good thing. You don't have to think so, but we do. I'll say again that The Right didn't become the CHRISTIAN Right until the media didn't like their pushing back against sudden secularism a few years ago........matter of fact, we're called EVANGELICALS now as if it's in the same realm as TYPHOID MARY. Anybody who knows CHristianity, knows that any believing Christian is an evangelical; but the media's made it something to be ashamed of with their snide remarks, separating them from "normal" Christians, etc.

I agree with Rita's comment and wasn't going to say more, but there you go!

Z said...

Rita, we use SCAT to get rid of a cat in the way, for example. We don't say "GIT" too often, but we know what it means and your story made me laugh out loud! "GIT!" in Rome; that had to be good :-)

SKAT is Ella's spelling, I think!? :-) a daba..dooo..a booda daa...
I LOVE ELLA. And I LOVE Billie Eckstein and DINA WASHINGTON together....mmmm but that's another post!

Z said...

didn't mean to make Ella sound like FRED FLINTSTONE there, by the way :-)
a yabba dabba dooooooooo!!

net observer said...

"We just have to take their words for it that they don't believe in God. A task made less incredible if they didn't talk about God exponentially more often than believers do."

Well, speaking for myself, and probably most atheists, my atheism rarely comes up in conversation unless I witness unfair attacks on atheists (which is, frankly, how I treat ANY group).

But typically, even when I hear those unfair attacks I won't bring up my point of view.

But if you're talking about the Hitchens-Dawkins-Harris set who represent...oh, I don't know, .00000001% of the world's atheists? I'm inclined to agree with you a bit. They initiate fights over religion all the time. I guess they get a kick out of it.

I just saw my recording of today's "The Five". Man, did they ever prove my point.

net observer said...


As usual, you make a lot of sense.

In a vacuum, I think Maher's tweet was quite puerile; almost on the "Howard Stern" level. But against the backdrop of all the Tebow mania of late, I have to cut Maher some slack. Like, I said, my irritation with activity was building. I can't imagine what Maher's was like.

I'll bet anything Maher gets some of the ugliest email on the planet from right-leaning non-atheists. He probably had that tweet written long ago, just waiting for the best/worst time to broadcast it.

And, for what its worth, I think Maher's "hate" (I'm not so sure I would use that term) is directed at a certain KIND of Christian (like Eric Whatshisname on "THE FIVE"). I don't think he's as p!ssed at Cornell West.

Lastly, like Hitchens, Maher actively fights against religion, which makes him quite different from most atheists like Carolla, or me, for that matter.

Just some thoughts.

Rita said...

We live in Peyton Manning country out here. Yesterday I caught the very end of something he was saying about the Super Bowl win a couple years back.

They showed the video of Manning bowing his head and folding his hands. The voice-over had Peyton saying that he does not pray for a wins, but found himself at the game praying. Not for a win, just praying.

So if your "job" is to play football, what is wrong with praying that you do your best? What is wrong with giving thanks when something you've worried about at work goes right?

I don't believe Tebow attracts attention because of his religion. I believe he become a lightning rod when the pro-abortionists tried to stop the airing of the Super Bowl commercial with him and his mother.

THAT's when his Chrisian faith became controversial. Simply because they filmed a commercial that told the story of how his mother was advised to abort him and she chose not to.

There are plenty of faithful Christians in the NFL who make no apologies for being Christian. Manning and Coach Tony Dungy among them.

Tebow's stance on abortion is the root of the left's hatred of him.

Rita said...

Net: I've only witnessed you being respectful here at Geez. As I've said before my atheist friends are also respectful. But there are many who I would refer to as militant atheists.

I used to read an intelligent liberal blogger, but her continued referring to "Christists" was undoubtedly intended as Christian bashing.

There are many who purport to be Christians, especially the televangelists who are nothing more than faithless money grabbers.

I once posed this question to my good atheist friend.

Just for the sake of discussion, suppose there really is a God and there really is a Satan and suppose they really ARE battling over the souls of mankind.

Hypothically, if I were Satan and I wanted to turn away as many people as possible from Christianity, what would be the best method to accomplish that?

Wouldn't the best method be to have nasty people claim they were Christian and wave horrible gay-hatred signs at soldier's funerals? Wouldn't the best method be to get corrupt televangelists on TV so people actually believe that is what a Christian looks like?

Believe me, I think the Westboro psychos will be burning in hell even before people like Bill Maher.

Maher gives atheists a bad name, Net. You manage to give a good counter argument without being hateful or insulting. I appreciate that.

net observer said...


To no surprise =), you and I just fundamentally disagree about the "footprint" (for lack of a better term) of Christianity versus atheism.

From my vantage point, the notion that Christians are under any serious assault or opposition in this country has to be the biggest joke I've ever heard.

But it's a very popular belief. I'll give you that.

But practically speaking, you CAN'T get away from "God" in this country. (and I say that with a smile and a "live and let live" heart =)) Churches are everywhere. Always have been. "God" is on our currency. Always has been.

I've never heard of an admitted atheist presidential candidate with a snowball's chance to win the Oval Office -- and I know I never will.

I recall a story from my best friend, a dedicated husband and father -- and an atheist, too. One day he noticed that how his kids no longer referred to "October 31st" as "Halloween". As it turns out, the Christianity-based politics of the region changed that long-standing tradition. Ultimately he didn't care and neither did I. But again, to say these are the persecuted ones?

I'm sorry. I think it's utterly ridiculous.

net observer said...

One other thing...

"I believe you're mostly wrong about humor and the Right"

This confused me a little bit, Z. What exactly did I say about humor and the right that was wrong?

"Man, use humor about Obama some time with a leftist and see how outraged he gets. it's unbelievable!"

Well, sure, some of them will become infuriated just like the guys on "The Five" (along with a million other right-wingers) became infuriated with Maher.

I'm not saying that leftists are necessarily more rational at this.

Plus, if you listen to conservative radio, there's an infinite amount of anti-Obama humor, almost nonstop with some people. And based on the calls that come in, the audiences love it, encourages it, etc.

Z said...

net "I just saw my recording of today's "The Five". Man, did they ever prove my point."

If you read my comment, you'll see they prove my point, too. People who believe others should have their faith are REAL tired of the secularism attempts and the suggestion that CHristians want to TAKE OVER AMERICA :-) I don't blame THE FIVE for cheering someone who actually has the guts to not care what secularists do to intimidate.

You can think what you want; my blog's been practically dedicated to frequent articles exposing Army cemeteries where they can't say GOD or JESUS or GOD BLESS you at a private Christian funeral, or places where crosses are used in respect to Christian beliefs.....or the 10 Commendments being banned, etc etc.
Oh, then there's the HOLIDAY PROGRAMS instead of CHristmas or Easter Programs at school...Or my friend's 7 yr old having to sing not Rudolph or Frosty but IMAGINE and LEAN ON ME at their 'WINTER PROGRAM'!! NO more happy, cheerful secular songs...OH NO...the hint of Christmas is so wrong :-)
Holiday trees! I love that one.
Telling employees they can't say MERRY CHRISTMAS.
You can laugh ALL you want, net...keep on believing what you think.

I have NEVER in my LIFE heard of anything more stupid than not saying HALLOWEEN. NEVER heard of it and probably never will again.

Rita! OH, my GOSH, is Tebow the kid whose mother almost aborted him and did that video? I swear I had NO IDEA, never put them together.
Ya, that's why they're ragging him so badly.
If he was black, it'd be okay for far lefties; Margaret Sanger meant for black children to be aborted, but that's the deepest darkest secret going, isn't it. Other than the one about how Lyndon Johnson enacted the Civil Rights Bill :-) :-)

Rita said...

Halloween isn't called Halloween? It sure is where I come from. I was raised Catholic and I didn't know that Halloween was actually All Saints Day until I was in my 20's, but I never hear anyone call it anything but Halloween here.

Maybe you don't see it Net, but I remember not too long ago when professors and some journalists quit referring to B.C. and A.D. instead using B.C.E and C.E.

Even most other religions believe Christ actually existed, just some do not believe he was the Son of God. Suddenly B.C. did not refer to Before Christ, but changed to Before the Common Era and the Common Era. So even our historical dating system was supposed to change to eliminate the term Before Christ. It was ridiculous and thankfully never caught on.

Z said...

Oh, Rita, it HAS caught on. I see it quite a bit now... OH, yes, sadly. You are SO right, this did happen...but I have seen it used a lot.
And yes, who ever heard of not saying HALLOWEEN? VERY rare and probably pretty popular when wanting to slam Christians.

Rita said...

That's the one Z. Net may have a point, the rabid obsession with Tebow probably does have less to do with his faith.

It's more likely to do with he and his mother's message.

All in all, imo Christians are less harassed than pro-lifers.

Z said...

seemed to me net thinks Tebow's detractors are about his faith not his pro life position...but I scan quickly when I read sometimes (sorry)...did I miss something?

Net, I did just see your line sort of comparing Hitchens to Maher; there is no comparison. One has great intellect and would never insult. The other is all about insulting to look cute and be hip and popular and shocking. Hitchens is a man I respected GREATLY for his lack of name calling and disrespect.

I'm not sure about Christians vs pro lifers. But, you're probably right, Rita. Maybe that's the reason for the sudden push to diminish faith from the country; it did start happening after Roe v Wade; good point, Rita. I often wonder if the LIFE issue isn't SO important to abortion advocates that that's why they've taken to slamming faith in this country. What a sad, dangerous slippery slope. Look at our kids and tell me they weren't happier and cleaner living when people led lives of values bigger than their own.

And please, nobody tell me atheists can't be nice people, too, folks. I KNOW that.

Rita said...

No you didn't miss anything Z, I was unclear in my statement.

Net makes the point (I believe) that Christians are not under attack. Of course I disagree with that, but I was attempting (badly) to make the point that Christianity is more acceptable than pro-life.

I know many Christians who believe nothing is wrong with abortion. Those two concepts are diametrically opposed in my opinion. If you believe that humans have a soul, just WHEN does God decide to give that life a soul? When I have asked some Christians that question, they scream bloody murder, but I have never heard an answer.

"Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you."

So how can someone be a Christian and support abortion?

I do not know any liberals who are pro-life, but I do know conservatives that are pro-abortion.

Z said...

Rita, I believe I have liberals who are pro life...plus, there are LOT of Catholic Democrats who are definitely pro life, you know?

Ya, I can't figure out what people think a child is going to be...an Amana refrigerator? Funny, when a baby's inside the womb, it's "it's not human, let it go" ...the minute it's 1/8" out of the womb, being birthed, and something's wrong, it's "SAVE THIS BABY"! How 1/8" makes such an amazing difference is beyond me :-)

A Christian who knows Scripture can't , in good conscience, be for abortion.

And, by the way, I wouldn't be surprised if some atheists are prolife.

Rita said...

I'm sure there are some atheist that are pro-life. I know when my atheist friend and I attempted to have that discussion I realized we could not debate the issue because my stance comes from my Christian faith.

Since he had no faith, his stance was "woman's body, woman's right." The conversation was short and agreeable as in we knew that there could be no middle ground to discuss.

I also never argued with him when I asked him how he believed we all actually did exist if there was no God. I respected his stance that he really didn't care. I looked at his stance in the same manner as to how I would be able to explain how God was infinite.

I did shock him once when I said, "no", to his casual question to me, "So you honestly believe all this was created in 7 days?"

When He did a double-take. I explained that in my opinion the term day was not referring to a 24 hour day. That's an earthly concept.

Gen 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

So according to Genesis, the concept of a 24 hour day was not even created until the fourth "day."

I think Christians put too much emphasis on the term day as if it has to mean an earthly 24 hour day.

The versus above clearly prove that the day and night were not even formed until the "fourth day".

We Christians get too hung up on words sometimes. So I don't discount science (well REAL science) in favor of my religion. I know a couple of scientists who love their jobs BECAUSE it continues to prove to them that God does exist.

I don't think the earth was created in 7 - 24 hours days. Time is a concept on earth. I think it was formed at a place and in the timing that was planned and predestined. And I don't know what that timeline was.

And now I have forgotten what that has to do with our original discussion.

Bob said...

Maher is just a bitter, little man.

beamish said...


But if you're talking about the Hitchens-Dawkins-Harris set who represent...oh, I don't know, .00000001% of the world's atheists? I'm inclined to agree with you a bit. They initiate fights over religion all the time. I guess they get a kick out of it.

Indeed. I have no idea how polemic the "average atheist" gets in defense of his particular flavor of solipsism. We typically only hear about atheism from its agenda-driven carnival barkers (your 0.00000001 percenters.)

And then, of course, we have the remnants of the Madalyn Murray O'Hair cult presaging that religious belief stifles scientific discovery (nevermind that detail of 5000 years of human scientific advancement at the hands of all sorts of religious folk) and that somehow "atheists" (if one can prove any actually exist) are victimized by ubiquitous displays and affirmations of religious faith and practice.

Don't get me wrong... my answer to the "prayers and creationism in public schools" issue / noise is to get rid of public schools.

And there's much in secular humanism, that I can concur with.

But that "much," as it turns out, is borrowed heavily from Judeo-Christian ethics in the first place.

I guess my question for you would be: "what's the point of atheism?"

net observer said...

z, rita,

i think you ladies may have solved this one. this tebow brouhaha probably had more to do with his pro-life stance, which I don't hear "the five" talk about as much.

i am/was irritated by the five's "see! 'the atheists' (as if that were some kind of organization) can't stand tebow and what he 'represents' (whatever that is supposed to be)". at best, it's willful ignorance about atheism, but i think it's more their desire to pretend like atheists are some kind of evil monolithic force seeking to destroy the christian way of life. it's cheap demagoguery.

again, most atheists couldn't care less.

i also get tired of this attempt to connect atheism to leftism. just b/c i don't believe in the supernatural doesn't mean i reject free markets and liberty. again, it causes me to question the seriousness of those who level the charge. i don't believe in u.f.o. abductions either. what does that make me politically?

this confusion of the term "conservatism" was displayed in a classic way on today's "the five". did u see when gutfeld argued with andrea t about drug legalization and she said, "that's definitely not a conservative position." i wanted to say "tell that to thomas sowell and william buckley, little girl"

as far as my friend and his kids. his school doesn't refer to halloween as halloween and it was b/c of political christians in the community. the fact that you've never heard about that kind of thing may or may not be relevant. but it did happen.

which brings me to my last point. anecdotes can be misleading. fair enough. so i have to take the bird's eye view. churches all over the place. christian radio and tv everywhere. no prospects for atheist high-office candidates. 'God' is still on our currency. Legal oaths still assume one believes in God.

i think you guys are ahead =)

net observer said...

beam, the point of atheism? meaning, "what's the point of not believing in God?" is that the question?

pardon me for saying this, but that's kind of like asking "what's the point of not being a fan of NASCAR?"

i'm just not a fan. that's it.

i recognize that NASCAR has many dear, dear fans. i don't hold anything against them or their sport. it's just not my thing.

similarly, i don't buy into the concept of a supreme being, for lack of a more definitive term. even though i recognize that 90% of the world does.

beamish said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
beamish said...

beam, the point of atheism? meaning, "what's the point of not believing in God?" is that the question?

pardon me for saying this, but that's kind of like asking "what's the point of not being a fan of NASCAR?"

i'm just not a fan. that's it.

Well, I grew up south of Kentucky enough to appreciate the jovial equating of theistic belief with NASCAR fandom, but I find your answer rather atypical of other alleged atheists I've asked (not that you're here to speak for all alleged atheists, mind you.)

Your answer still turns on a personal preference - you prefer not to believe in a "Supreme Being." A softer position, that asserts "I personally don't believe in God" over the more rigid pronouncement of "there is no God for anyone to believe in," perhaps?

The softer atheism is more intellectually defensible than the more rigid form. Unfortunately, the more rigid form gets all the controversial media buzz.


this confusion of the term "conservatism" was displayed in a classic way on today's "the five". did u see when gutfeld argued with andrea t about drug legalization and she said, "that's definitely not a conservative position." i wanted to say "tell that to thomas sowell and william buckley, little girl"

Highest of high fives, man.

Rita said...

Net: The UFO/political leaning comparision is spot on and had me laughing out loud.

You're right, of course, why do "we" equate atheism with a liberal leaning? Honestly I have no idea. Unless it IS because people like Maher who should not be a poster child for anyone's belief, including UFO abductions.

net observer said...

i understand where you're coming from, b. basically, 'agnostic' versus 'atheist'.

the technical, denotative definitions would make me an agnostic. i.e., how can anyone "know" that there is no higher order? i'm not sure if that's even possible.

but the connotative definitions allow me to label myself "atheist". to most, an atheist is someone who absolutely does not believe in God. that's me.

an agnostic, connotatively, is someone who isn't sure what to think, in my opinion. which is cool, but that's definitely not me.

i don't claim to "know". and as far as i'm concerned, nobody "knows". i guess that means we're all agnostics, technically spkg. but i think that's taking semantics to a impractical place.

beamish said...


I'm a militant agnostic. I don't know and you don't either. :P

beamish said...

...all kidding aside, there's oodles of shades between "belief" and "knowledge."

I believe there is a God. If I KNEW there is a God, atheism vs. theism wouldn't be the cage match it often becomes.

Z said...

net, no, I actually do believe the disdain for Tebow's his faith...but I think the disdain against most Christians is the pro life stance.

We generalize here as we type in these little squares trying to be as succinct as possible, so I might have said something that sounded like I think all atheists are liberals, but I don't. I never have and never will.
As I said, I'm certain there are atheist pro lifers, too;

"pro life just makes sense", said one atheist I heard on the radio..."killing babies does not"

I believe I'd also vote for an atheist had he the views about the constitution and the love for America that I and so many others do. I know that faith has been a huge part of many brilliant presidents' private strength, so I'd feel less sure about him, and I'd wonder that he feels HE is his highest source on earth, but I might be good with that depending on what I saw and heard from the candidate.

net, yes, so far, CHristianity wins, as you oddly put it, but it makes me laugh to consider anybody living in America hasn't seen the constant attempts at kicking God out by now.
I'd not expect people to raze every church in the area, or take down military crosses in cemeteries, etc.
Did you read my comment above?

net observer said...

i hate to admit it, but i'm really startin' to like you guys =)

z, i got into a chat with 'kid' on another of your posts. we were talking about race. kid made a big point there that probably applies here: our media "representatives" are a major part of the problem. that is, when, say, "jesse jackson" reps "Black America" or when ron paul's newsletter reps "the right", how much damage does that do to potentially constructive conversation?

rita touched on it, too. when we hear about atheists, it's usu in the form of a hitchens, a dawkins, a hypersensitive member of the Amer Atheist Assoc, etc. i.e., people w abrasive personalities and atypical concerns.

the nature of media insists on "loud" personalities. boring nerds like us aren't cut for tv. so loudmouths dominate.

these blog forums are special to me b/c they force all of us to answer specific questions in depth. traditional media don't allow for that. but oftentimes, as beam once said, indirectly, when decent, thoughtful people argue, we're not as far apart as we may have thought.

Rita said...

Agreed Net. And the media thrives on broadcasting the worst of the worst.

Case in point. Nearly everyone in the country knows about the Westboro idiots, but rarely is it published that there are actually only around a dozen or so of the idiots. Yet they get the press because they are so horribly divisive.

The one good thing that has happened out of all that is that thousands of those big bad biker dudes are now protecting the soldiers funerals and making it impossible for the Westboro dozen to even get within a few hundred yards of the families.

I just love seeing these guys I used to be afraid of with their aging tattooes, long hair and big chains riding in on their Harleys honoring our soldiers and their grieving families.

Z said...

net, thanks....maybe we'll start to like you soon, too (KIDDING! :-)
By the way, Hitchens never seemed abrasive to me, but...if you want to include him in that bunch, I'm down with it.

Rita, your story is such an excellent example of what net's talking about. I LOVE those bikers!
Our praise director at the church where I used to sing has a very long pony tail down his back, 3 Harleys and looks like a biker in all ways. I've always liked bikes so I wasn't against Pat, but he is very different than I am; I have come to love him through knowing him and watching him in action toward other people.

Dennis Prager here on L.A. radio for years, used to suggest we get black and white families together over dinner; inviting strangers over, to discuss issues, probably finding out we're not far apart at all...maybe even solid on most issues.
I loved that idea but never heard it go anywhere...it'd be tough to organize, I guess.

But, that's the point. We have to try to get on an even keel here in our country and FAST because we're getting more and more divided and I think the media's got a LOT to do with it in what net describes...

Sharpton no more represents my black friends than Ron Paul does me. And those horrid black kids at the Mall of AMerica causing riots don't stand for all kids of ANY color...but there they are, on TV, looking to some as "there go the black kids again".......
Man, you ALL want to know the black kids at MY high school. the BEST. THE very BEST. Quite a contrast. But, the world doesn't hear about them.

Rita said...

Honestly I'll have to say I did not think the races were that divided until Obama was running for office. Very early on, I was impressed with him, but then I heard about Reverend Wright. Even with that I figured Obama was probably the "real deal" so to speak even if I disagreed with him.

Once I heard the "guns and religion" remark, I was done.

And then I found that anyone who took exception with his policies was labeled a racist. Me included. And this wasn't Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton types, who become rich keeping the races divided, it was nearly every liberal I knew. If I had severe disagreements with his political stance, it was labeled that I must have deep seated hatred of people of color.

I find it incredibly sad that our nation is now more divided than I can ever remember.

If we could get people together who will think for themselves rather than just routinely quoting what they've heard on MSNBC or FOX News, then we could come together on more issues. But we see kids like LibDude who find it impossible to come up with an independent thought.

Thankfully nearly all of your commenters are much more intelligent and can have a reasonable discussion. I don't always agree with them, but we can have a good debate. Even Ducky can get me to laugh occasionally. ;)

Leticia said...

Amen, Z.

Anonymous said...

Maher exposes the hypocrisy of the extremists in religion. As did Hitchens, who was on his show often. He was booed once and made that comment about his audience. Some people (like wingnuts) should make the truth their religion. I have no problem with religion. I am a believer. I am a liberal.

Many who are religious think public displays and grandiose proselytizing, especially by millionaire sports figures with IQ’s of a flea, as egregious and tacky. Tebow should take it to the locker room.

Bob said...

"Tebow should take it to the locker room."

Before or after he takes it to the bank? You know where Tebow is coming from. Can you support the flea IQ thing with Tebow?

Why make such a general statement?

Rita said...

Beetlejuice Beetlejuice Beetlejuice.

Say their name and they magically appear.

Z said...

Rita, you'll love this "The modern definition of 'racist' is someone who is winning an argument with a liberal.... Peter Brimelow"
It's a quote from my sidebar!! Right???

LIBERALDUDE, I KNEW you couldn't spell egregious so I Googled the phrase and I saw you picked it right off another blog. :-) You poor little soul!

B0B, it wasn't even his original thought. Talk about 'flea IQ', huh? :-)

net observer said...

Dear Rita:

"I find it incredibly sad that our nation is now more divided than I can ever remember."

What? lol How old are you, young lady?

I'll just speak for the ethnic group I know the most about. African-Americans today are light years more moderate in their views about race today than any other era I can recall. I'm 46.

Indeed, I think we as a country are very, very divided, but the divisions are political, not black vs white. Unless there's a counter dynamic occurring among non-blacks and I'm unaware of it.

But if I compare today's era with '94 (OJ's murder scandal) or '96 (Million Man March), or the Reagan era of the 80s, we're living in a virtual racially harmonious utopia.

I didn't have ANY white friends until I went to college. There weren't any white kids to make friends with. NONE! lol

It was ALL black except for a few hybrids. Last year, I returned to that neighborhood out of curiosity and I saw Blacks, Latinos, and even few whites -- blew me away.

Of course, they're all listening to hip-hop.

I remember my first year in college was like being an exchange student. Different music, different foods, different world views, different politics. That was the first time I met people who didn't think Reagan was a war-mongering, heartless scumbag lol

Maybe it's just me but I can hardly agree that the Obama era will be remembered for it's rekindling of racial tensions.

net observer said...

btw, Z, I didn't mean to compare Hitchens' integrity to Maher. I was trying to say that the Hitchens was blunt. He was abrasive in that he never cared too much about hurting the his opponent's feelings. He was not Dennis-Prager-esque.

Rita said...

Net: I think I love you. At 52, hardly anyone calls me a young lady anymore.

When I graduated high school in 1977, there had been only one black family that had ever graduated from that school. At that time it was a considerably colorless suburb of Indianapolis.

The Royston's were well known in the community. They were considered hard working, polite and a family a great faith. I had the pleasure of working with the father at my first full time job and he was incredibly sweet.

I am not so naive to assume that they were not discriminated against, but no one I knew ever considered them anything but good people, it didn't matter that their skin was darker than mine.

I was sickened when the first trial of cops who beat Rodney King did not result in a guilty verdict. I did not know of anyone white or black who was not disgusted by it. The resulting riots were frightening. And although several people made fun of him, King's response of "can't we all just get along" rang true.

When I watched as OJ was found not guilty I was equally disgusted. And the media showing the reaction of the African American community sure didn't help race relations at all.

The "jury of your peers" would have been OJ's neighbors in Brentwood, not the people who were actually selected for the jury.

OJ's verdict was more an indication of rich vs poor.

Likewise, I believe that if Casey Anthony had been a poor black man, she would be handed a death sentence within an hour.

I am not delusional enough to believe that there is no racism today, throughout the world.

What shocked me is that when we as a country have reached a point that a black man is President, we are also backward enough that we cannot disagree with his politics without being called racists.

And hearing those same "enlightened" liberals then refer to Herman Cain or Allen West an Uncle Tom or even worse was also shocking to me.

So I was naive enough to think that we had gotten past that point.

Big Fat Tio Mike said...

I just finished a book about Jerry Falwell written by his widow. A recurring theme was how friendly terms he was on with his philisophical adversaries: Phil Donahue, Ted Kennedy, Jesse Jackson, Larry Flynt. The one person she described as being rude and demeaning both on and off camera was--you guessed it--Bill Maher.


Big Fat Tio Mike said...

Which high school?

bftm of Lawrence North

Rita said...

BFTM: We were the opposite of Carmel. Back in those days Carmel was considered the Rich Kids and we were the Farm Kids.

Nowdays, my alma mater is no longer considered a farm school.

And for our West Coast friends, in Indiana it's called CARmel, not CarMEL.

Rita said...

Net: The first election in which I would have been eligible to vote was Reagan's first. Even back then the media convinced me that Reagan was a war monger. I distinctly remember NOT voting in that election for that very reason.

Four years later, you can bet I voted for him. The only Democrat I ever voted for was Evan Bayh and for that I will never forgive myself.

I did vote Libertarian once in the gubernatorial election a few years back as a protest vote. The D's and R's campaigns had gotten so nasty I decided to not vote for either of them.

Big Fat Tio Mike said...

Rita, you have me thinking Noblestucky.

Z said...

I'm with Rita and I've said this to net many, many times; I don't SEE racism and I don't hear it from white or black friends, so I've always been a little naive.
Heck, in college in the early seventies, the school was 90% white and a black girl was THE popular girl. I didn't know to think otherwise! :-)

Larry Elder's talked many times about how his schools and schools he visits today are segregated by the black kids who sit at tables by themselves...not with the white kids. He feels that's their doing; I can't know that, but I know at my Private CHristian high school, I have NEVER seen a bigger lack of 'sides'........the kids like each other or they don't, but not because of color, that's for sure. The church I used to attend and my new church both have about 25% black and, especially at the Lutheran church I've just left, I always found that odd and terrific. Odd because most Lutherans (other than yours truly the token Armenian!) are Northern Europeans and most of our congregation is of German or Scandinavian descent.

ANYWAY.....I do want to say that I have always wondered, and have commented here, about why Sharpton and Jackson are so quiet since Obama was elected. They've really slunk into the shadows .... I suppose Obama wants to separate himself from them.

I believe Obama dealt badly with the black Harvard prof situation (accusing the cops before he had the facts, and THAT IS a fact)...I think he could talk a lot more to kids today (Net, I don't believe you are right that he has, as you said the other day, I wish you were)...

And I and most of my readers ARE tired of being called racist by the left if we don't like Obama's stances,....particularly stupid when ANY one of us would vote for Alan West TODAY if we could...I wish

Rita said...

Nope. Southside. CG.

Ticker said...

Maher see's himself as a great comedian and blows off such crap to get attention. Basically it's the only way he can draw attention to himself due to his real lack of any talent and certainly no looks.
If people, especially the media, like FOX would ignore Maher when he makes such stupid comments he would soon just fade into obscurity or find himself busted for playing with underage hookers.

Duckbutt, Tebow doesn't pray to win the game. He gives thanks to God for the abilities that he has given him to get to where he is today. But of course you can't understand that since you believe it is all about you.

Rita said...

Net/Z: Are you watching The Five tonight?

Obviously, they must be monitoring this blog and they stole my reasoning behind the Tebow controversy.

(And only because it absolutely drives me crazy when I find my stupid fingers typing something I didn't intend....I DO know that I should have typed "shoo" away critters, not "shew" in one of the above comments. There, now I feel better.)

Z said...

Rita, I missed the first showing...got to find out when it's on again; I think around 4?

net observer said...

Hello Rita, virtual love of my life =)

I always tape "The Five". I haven't seen it yet. I'll check it out later.

But look at us now. We're like congress when C-SPAN is on. When the cameras are rolling, they start dustin' themselves off lol

btw, yesterday, I tried to respond to one of your last comment via cell phone and I ended up losing the whole darn piece.

But that's the beauty of thing. Stay online, stay healthy and we'll eventually cover every topic in depth =)

Z, if you're out there, it's official now. You GOTTA arrange some kind of real-life Z-blog get-together over the next year or two.

Z said...

after you called RITA the love of your life?
net..no blog-get together NOW...AND I'm sending your ring back, too!!

(heh heh!!)

Rita said...

Back off Z. You can't keep Net all to yourself.

A little online flirting never hurt anyone.

Wait, except for that Wiener thing.

Z said...

"Wait, except for that Wiener thing."

Rita, I'm laughing out loud!!! HILARIOUS!
We might have been raised in different states but I think we were separated at birth :-)

98ZJUSMC said...

,....particularly stupid when ANY one of us would vote for Alan West TODAY if we could...I wish

So fast that most of us would be a cartoon swirl heading to the voting booths.

Bet on it.

Rita said...

Quite possibly Z. My sister and brother were both born at Presidio in San Francisco. Maybe my parents accidentally left you behind when he got out of service.