A dog had followed his owner to school. His owner was a fourth grader at a public elementary school. However, when the bell rang, the dog sidled inside the building and made it all the way to the child's classroom before a teacher noticed and shooed him outside, closing the door behind him. The dog sat down, whimpered and stared at the closed doors. Then God appeared beside the dog, patted his head, and said,'Don't feel bad fella'...they won't let ME in either'.
Obviously, we can't talk about Jesus Christ in public schools........but do you think things have improved in America since we kicked God out?
"Train your child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not turn from it." Proverbs 22:6
What's the down side to private prayer time in which children can be told they can pray or just be quiet and be encouraged to meditate on life if they're atheist's children?
z
133 comments:
Since the wall between Church and state has been breached by allowance and exceptions for muslims, there is no reason children of other faiths can't also pray in school.
I defy anyone to insist this isn't a reality, or a simple statement of the truth. Freedom of religion is not exclusive to muslims.
Christianity is the overwhelming religious faith in America. Aggressive demands seem to work for islam, therefore aggressive demands must be made by all other faiths as well.
If we are so intimidated and weak not to stand up for our religion, we deserve to be discounted. It's up to us.
Cloaking recognition of the muslim faith in schools as a study of their culture is a ruse, I contend Christianity has a culture as well. This is nothing more than discrimination.
Things in America have deteriorated since the assault against Chritianity began. Morality as well has declined as a result.
If Christian children can't mention Jesus, then muslims can't mention Muhammed.
My stock answer:
We'd not be concerned with what is allowed and disallowed in public schools if there were no public schools.
Proverbs 22:6 was the official school verse in the Christian school where I worked for 18 years. All of us who worked there tried to live up to the school's mission; overall, I think that we did so.
I gave up on public education in 1977, when I was forced out because I wouldn't pass the school's star football player. He had an average around 30% and regularly cut class, including exams.
I stood alone in not passing Mike. All the other teachers caved.
What's the down side to private prayer time in which children can be told they can pray or just be quiet and be encouraged to meditate on life if they're atheist's children?
The same downside to stopping a church sermon or Sunday School class to do Sudoku puzzles or work out polynomial Algebra equations.
Is God so impotent, petty, and insignificant as to be an essential and necessary and required part of public education, so that if He's not implicitly recognized with classroom "silent time for prayer" he'll cause chemistry students to forget how to read a periodic table?
Is public school the proper venue for a child's moral training, much less his religious training? Shouldn't kids be getting their moral upbringing at home and bringing it to school with them?
Lack of phylacteries and whitewashed sepulchers and ostentatious presentations of religion aren't going to help Johnny answer his essay quiz on the denouement plot elements in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales if he's never read or studied the coursework. God's not going to miracle him a passing grade even if the quiz is multiple choice.
So, why is it important, as an essential point of public education.
If I had kids, I'd expect their English teacher to teach them to read and write with proper English grammar and immerse them in classical literature, not "pause for a word from / with our Sponsor" or direct a worship service.
That's not me being hostile to God, that's me being hostile to dog and pony shows.
Have to leave but want to tell Beamish, your arguments are good and I disagree. First, nobody said teachers should teach about God in school. Secondly, we forget that God's kicked out in ways other than the prayer; creationism isn't even allowed to be discussed except for dissing it as remotely valid, thirdly, most don't allow Christmas songs at the 'holidays' which they're now called, and EASTER BREAK is now SPring break.
You start more of this and children don't even KNOW that Christianity is the faith which founded this country and why that's a good thing.
They're mostly not learning it at home, that's for sure.
See you all later
Good post Z.
My biggest issue with religion in school is fairness.
I feel we should teach a Christian based morals system to the kids.
I think we should be allowed to say the Pledge of Allegiance with the phrase "one nation under God...".
I think we should allow silent prayer, without a teacher endorsing a specific religion.
I think we should allow religious groups (of any religion) to use the campus facilities for meetings, etc within reason.
I have had a bigger issue with excluding Christianity than them not including it.
Let me try to make sense of that.
I am not certain a school should, in any way, endorse a religion - Christianity or otherwise.
I don't think a teacher should lead a class in prayer for a particular religion.
My real issue has been that these rules only seem to apply to Christianity.
We have teachers leading students in Muslim prayer. Prayer to Mother Earth. Native American prayer. All in the name of multiculturalism.
We allow any student organization have a classroom for a meeting except a bible study club.
This is my issue with religion in education. It needs to be an all or none.
Evangelicalism is not and never will be the national religion. In fact the nation does not have one.
You will continue to be retrained.
Evangelicalism is not and never will be the national religion. In fact the nation does not have one.
You will continue to be retrained.
I learned all about the mass murdering Catholic Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition in high school. I even did a report on the disgusting Cadaver Synod.
Need I be retrained?
My Utmost For His Highest
Sunday, April 3, 2011
'If You Had Known!'
If you had known . . . in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes —Luke 19:42
Jesus entered Jerusalem triumphantly and the city was stirred to its very foundations, but a strange god was there -- the pride of the Pharisees.
It was a god that seemed religious and upright, but Jesus compared it to "whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness" (Matthew 23:27 ).
What is it that blinds you to the peace of God "in this your day"? Do you have a strange god -- not a disgusting monster but perhaps an unholy nature that controls your life?
More than once God has brought me face to face with a strange god in my life, and I knew that I should have given it up, but I didn’t do it. I got through the crisis "by the skin of my teeth," only to find myself still under the control of that strange god.
I am blind to the very things that make for my own peace. It is a shocking thing that we can be in the exact place where the Spirit of God should be having His completely unhindered way with us, and yet we only make matters worse, increasing our blame in God’s eyes.
"If you had known . . . ." God’s words here cut directly to the heart, with the tears of Jesus behind them. These words imply responsibility for our own faults. God holds us accountable for what we refuse to see or are unable to see because of our sin. And "now they are hidden from your eyes" because you have never completely yielded your nature to Him.
Oh, the deep, unending sadness for what might have been! God never again opens the doors that have been closed. He opens other doors, but He reminds us that there are doors which we have shut -- doors which had no need to be shut.
Never be afraid when God brings back your past. Let your memory have its way with you. It is a minister of God bringing its rebuke and sorrow to you. God will turn what might have been into a wonderful lesson of growth for the future.
—Oswald Chambers
Have to leave but want to tell Beamish, your arguments are good and I disagree. First, nobody said teachers should teach about God in school. Secondly, we forget that God's kicked out in ways other than the prayer; creationism isn't even allowed to be discussed except for dissing it as remotely valid, thirdly, most don't allow Christmas songs at the 'holidays' which they're now called, and EASTER BREAK is now SPring break.
I'm sure you'll come back to this Z, but let me snap off a few grenades at these three.
1.) How is it "not teaching about God" to include time set aside for prayer or meditation in school?
2.) Why would creationism have a place in a science course? Science is about testable claims. Even "intelligent design" fails that sniff test.
3.) But there's still a break in the school year. Nobody's scheduling classes on Christmas Day, for example.
You start more of this and children don't even KNOW that Christianity is the faith which founded this country and why that's a good thing.
I disagree with this. Christianity didn't found America. Exhausting British soldiers with guerilla warfare in the hills of South Carolina is what done it. It's true that Christianity was the faith of the Founding Fathers, but it was also the faith of the British oppressors they overthrew.
They're mostly not learning it at home, that's for sure.
Not learning what? Science and history, or Christianity?
Why is what Beamish says so hard for some to understand?
Let me also agree with Beamish, America was NOT founded on Christianity.
Why is what Beamish says so hard for some to understand?
It's the edge where libertarian-conservative fusionism gets frayed and breaks ranks. One side says "shut down public schools" and the other says "turn public schools into Christian academies."
I'm a fusionist. An individual conservative, not a social conservative. "Leave me alone" includes not being pestered by religious conservatives as much as it does not being pestered by left-wing "social justice" zealots, which really are different brands of the same doctrine of interference and coercion and "how" government's institutions "should" mess with people.
Let me also agree with Beamish, America was NOT founded on Christianity.
America was founded BY Christians, but not ON Christianity.
We revolted against Britain for political and economic freedom, not to establish a missionary order.
"Train your child in the way he should go..."
And I'll train mine.
The Ten Commandments, especially from the 5th to the 10th...are basic guildlines on how one should live among others.
They are good, basic laws that will help keep us right before God, and also help keep us out of trouble with ourselves, our families, our friends and our neighbors. God knows what is best for all of us and He simply wants all of us to stay out of trouble in order that we may be able to live in peace and harmony with Him and one another.
Why shouldn't they be learned, taught as examples of how to conduct ourselves in society? Especially schools.
My brother recently told me that he'd seen some school material from our father's childhood and that he'd been taught English from Christian texts, Bible verses, Westminster Catechism and that sort of thing. Our father was born in 1902 so that would have started for him around 1908, already into the 20th century. That was in Canada, but many of us who have read David Barton's materials know that the same thing was the case here in the States as well.
What I find amazing is that some people vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of thiers.
In my humble opinion, Religious beliefs have no place in public schools.
""turn public schools into Christian academies.""
Beamish, no one is suggesting that. What's being suggested, is not to disallow even the mention of Christianity in the broader sense.
To pretend that Christianity wasn't influential in our laws is to pretend the ten commandments didn't exist, or bear any recognition by our founders.
To disallow children on their own to say grace at lunch period, or to disallow children to wear red and green at Christmastime to school, is how ridiculous political correctness has become.
I prefer however, to call it what it is, an assault on Christianity.
Our public schools were never Christian academies, and won't be. But to be disallowed to recognize it exists in our society, and part of our traditional heritage, is dishonest and dismissive of the majority in America.
Faith is correct. Anyone American who went to school (in a decent area at least) was exposed to a brief daily reading from the Bible and the pledge of allegiance. We did not pray in class -- at least where I lived -- but we certainly acknowledged the presence of God every day. Our school concerts were filled with the finest examples of Christian Sacred and Liturgical Music in honor of both Christmas and Easter. Perhaps 25% of our student population was Jewish, and in those days they were eager to participate in all the musical activities along with us Christians. I believe most of their parents looked on it favorably as a form of cultural enrichment, and a good opportunity to appreciate and learn more about the history and nature of the predominant culture in which they found themselves immersed.
The Establishment of that day meant no offense, and no offense was ever taken. we all got along famously -- UNTIL the poison of "Critical Theory" and "The Culture of Critique" took over in the Sick-sties.
Since then we've been mired in the ugliest forms of divisiveness imaginable, and have degenerated horribly on virtually all fronts.
Considering the fractious atmosphere we live with today compared with the relatively agreeable one we enjoyed in the 1940's and '50s -- and before --, it seems pretty obvious that driving the official encouragement of awareness and respect for Almighty God -- however anyone chose to view Him -- was in all probability a very bad idea. We ere taught to RESPECT each other even when we disagreed.
Demeaning religion and getting rid of any public consciousness of God is one of the cornerstones of Marxist ideology.
The Jewish kids and their parents in the pre-CounterCulture days seemed to understand that -- however we chose to view Him -- we all worshiped, or at least respected, the same God.
Ducky:
You said :"You will continue to be retrained."
RETRAINED ...sounds like a little of your socialism coming our? sort of like in the old DDR? :-)
Oh, and NO, we will not.
ALSO, Ducky...evangelism is about evangelizing......you're supposedly a church-going Catholic. Is the only difference between Catholics and Evangelism (other than we don't believe giving money to the church in Great Aunt Hattie's memory is going to get her to heaven, or that doing good deeds gets us there, or praying thru someone else helps) that we believe in SHARING the GOod News and not keeping it to ourselves...or??
By the way...I hate to say this on my faith Sunday, but You WILL continue to be downright stupid and more smugly nasty than anyone I've known...I think you work at it and I feel for you, I really do.
Beamish, Sorry, but much of our law and our ethic IS 'from Christianity'.....
Common Sense, be careful what you wish for.
Faith, I think that's true; public schools used to line up to go to chapel at the church down the street in the older days, too.
Children had morals in those days, children knew there was something more important than THEM (we have the ME GENERATION now), we could ALL go on and on with how much better it was when we had God subtly or not so subtly influencing our children....in school or not.
Making in school only solidifies the important of Him.
Chuck: Our country was founded on Judeo Christian principles...I, for one, don't want ALL things being taught. That's another real "be careful what you wish for" because that's the multiculturalism that other faiths are licking their chops at.
My belief is that "we have to be fair" is what activist Islam is waiting for. I"ve always thought that. We give up teaching children what we used to teach them and something will move in.
""turn public schools into Christian academies.""
Pris, thanks, I didn't see Beamish said that.
Who's suggesting that? NO WAY!!!
Beamish, I don't agree with you because you're going to an extreme on everything I implied.
Also...why is it Jewish kids loved singing the Christmas songs back then? Nobody tried to convert, nobody tried to hurt; the HUGE majority was Christian and THEY GOT THAT! I once asked a Jewish friend "did you mind hearing CHRISTMAS PARTY or hearing CHRISTMAS MUSIC in dept stores?"
He responded sarcastically, laughing:
"ya, Z, I hated seeing beautiful Christmas displays and hearing happy music in dept stores or going to really fun parties...or singing fun Christmas songs in school.......NO, I didn't! We liked it!"
not today! That says a lot.
Although I don't blame Jews for this sudden distaste for ANYTHING Christian in and/or AROUND our schools...this is the secularists protecting 80% of American CHristians from Christianity.
NEVER teach kids Christianity in school...never.
But, to have a silent moment to do what THEY WISH?
To teach evolution AND creationism?
WHy have kids fast for Ramada to see what's that like, learn to pray bowing down, study islam, (in elementary school as you've all seen on articles on blogs)etc etc. ...but mention Jesus and there's ALL HELL TO PAY IN A PUBLIC SCHOOL!!? that's scary.
"but mention Jesus and there's ALL HELL TO PAY IN A PUBLIC SCHOOL!!? that's scary."
What's really scary is that we don't seize upon this as a way to flip the coin.
"We revolted against Britain for political and economic freedom, not to establish a missionary order."
I'll add "freedom of religion" to that.
The problem for our founders was not Christianity in itself, it was the clergy and the Church of England, which caused much consternation and upheaval during it's history.
My GOSH!!
Here's what I've suggested..
have a moment of silence wherein kids can just contemplate their navels, pray...anything.
Do not cut out or besmirch Christianity while teaching Islam or Buddhism and SHinto, etc.
Do not be small minded enough to deny creationism while studying evolution as well
Teach tolerance for all religions, do not deny the underpinnings of the 10 Commandments in American laws and ethics.
that's all! :-) (If that's all you can do...more would be better in my world, but this isn't only my world)
"do not deny the underpinnings of the 10 Commandments in American laws and ethics."
I though my post stated that too?
"Teach tolerance for all religion..."
That's been established as a failed one way street Ms. Z.
When I was in high school (1992), we had a moment of prayer (or silence). I don't know if they still do this.
I know that the prayer before football games has been replaced with a "moment of silence". :sigh:
""turn public schools into Christian academies.""
Beamish, no one is suggesting that. What's being suggested, is not to disallow even the mention of Christianity in the broader sense.
I don't believe this is true even in the abstract. You're not going to get through a course on world history without running into mentions of Christianity. The Holy Roman Empire. The Great Schism. The Crusades. The Protestant Reformation. Heck, even the Pilgrims at Plymouth Rock. And then you consider literature (such as the aforementioned Canterbury Tales) or art, such as Michelangelo and DaVinci's religious iconography and the Biblical sotries and characters they reference.
Christianity's not mentioned in schools? Really?
To pretend that Christianity wasn't influential in our laws is to pretend the ten commandments didn't exist, or bear any recognition by our founders.
Certainly Christianity was influential in our laws insomuch as they're the legacy of egalitarian English common law we retained after the American Revolution. The Revolution was mostly about "taxation without representation" - we wanted the same rights British subjects back in England were enjoying. We wanted representation in Parliament as well. The ideological basis of the American Revolution actually started in England with various peasant revolts going all the way back into the 12th Century. But there's more to our laws than Christian influences. The Iroquois Confederacy's laws were influential as well. As were the democratic babblings of homoerotic methane huffing oracles in Ancient Greece. America was founded on a pragmatic synthesis of history going way back before Christianity was a force in the world.
To disallow children on their own to say grace at lunch period, or to disallow children to wear red and green at Christmastime to school, is how ridiculous political correctness has become.
I think you're exxagerating. Lunchtime in public school for me was a noisy affair with all the conversations taking place, and there was no one monitoring the content. No one cared if you prayed over your food or not.
I prefer however, to call it what it is, an assault on Christianity.
What assault?
Our public schools were never Christian academies, and won't be. But to be disallowed to recognize it exists in our society, and part of our traditional heritage, is dishonest and dismissive of the majority in America.
We already have mentions of Christianity's role in history, art, literature, music, etc.; and public school does break both for weekend worship days (Sabbath and Sunday) and breaks for Christmas.
You want more than that. You want Christian praise and worship service in Trigonometry class.
This is why there should be no public schools. I wouldn't trust the public with my kids if I had any.
"and breaks for Christmas. "
Christmas is a National Holiday. Everyone gets to take it off...and everyone gets paid for it too. Especially school teachers.
Beamish, I don't agree with you because you're going to an extreme on everything I implied.
Am I?
Christian influences abound in studies of history, art, literature, music... you're not going to get very far in any of those subjects without running into the marks Christianity made on all of them.
So what's all the fuss about? No prayer in school, and no teaching that the Devil hid dinosaur bones in the Earth to confound us.
You want more than just respect for Christianity. You want mandated participation in it.
I'm Christian, and I find that idea repugnant.
To be fair, I hate all the displays of atheism on the empty lawn outside City Hall most of the year as well. ;)
Islam is not just a harsh, irrational religion, it is an imperial, supremacist, totalitarian, unenlightened, hate-filled, intolerant, political ideology.
And Christianity isn't? Slavery? Women's rights?
My what a difference 90 years makes.
"You want mandated participation in it."
no I don't! Never said it, never meant it.
Z;
My son is a research man, he is very young, he has a friend from 10 years ago, Julien his friend is him classmate when he was in high school.
Julien, did not continued his studies and he is a simple worker.
I asked from my son, why Julien didn't go to the University and didn't continued his studies?
My son replied, "He can not study, he is blocked psychologically".
I asked him why and how?
My son answered, "PAPA, Julien was in a PRIVATE Catholic school till his 14".
My son explained me that, the Catholic school education is nefarious for the future of the kids, they are permanently under moral and mental pressure that what they do, they are always the sinners,
BUT, I liked too much the history of the DOG.
PAPA
PAPA, we are all sinners, they were so right..that's why we're Christians, because Christ died on the cross for us and those sins are forgiven for belief in Him.
Many Catholic schools are strict and some used to be very (VERY) forbidding of everything....of the people I know from them, they're now.....
All extremely well educated but are
A. rather bitter non believers
B. strong believers but now Protestants
C. Extremely decent people in general
It wasn't the God's Word which hurt Julien, PAPA...
"You want mandated participation in it."
no I don't! Never said it, never meant it.
Then what do you mean?
What's missing from public education? Certainly not mentions of Christianity in the context of and as the subject of history, art, literature...
What's left? Is not a call for "prayer time" a call for participation in religion?
Is not a call to teach creationism alongside actual science a call for participation in religion?
Paint the path out of this corner, Z.
What do you want if it's not... what you say you want?
What's missing from public education? Certainly not mentions of Christianity in the context of and as the subject of history, art, literature...
ABSOLUTELY...WE SHOULD TEACH ALL RELIGIOUS INFLUENCES ON ART, HISTORY AND LITERATURE...ABSOLUTELY. IT'S INVALUABLE AND ONE CAN ALMOST NOT SEPARATE THE TWO IN CERTAIN GENRES.
What's left? Is not a call for "prayer time" a call for participation in religion?
IT'S CALLED QUIET TIME...WHY NOT? NO SPECIFIC RELIGION..ABSOLUTELY NOT. I NEVER SAID THAT.
Is not a call to teach creationism alongside actual science a call for participation in religion?
MORE THAN HALF THE COUNTRY BELIEVES IN CREATIONISM AND WE NEED TO LEAVE THAT OUT BECAUSE EVOLUTION TYPE ARE INTIMIDATING? I DON'T THINK SO.
IT'S CALLED QUIET TIME...WHY NOT? NO SPECIFIC RELIGION..ABSOLUTELY NOT. I NEVER SAID THAT
What about Pentecostal kids who need to scream and babble and handle snakes while praying?
Or the Muslim kids that needs to face Mecca and bump their heads on the ground five times a day to get their god to hear them?
Again. what is the purpose of this generic "quiet time" you want in public schools, if not to mandate participation in a religious ceremony?
MORE THAN HALF THE COUNTRY BELIEVES IN CREATIONISM AND WE NEED TO LEAVE THAT OUT BECAUSE EVOLUTION TYPE ARE INTIMIDATING? I DON'T THINK SO.
Actually, we need to leave it out of science classes because it's not science.
I can argue against the theory of evolution on scientific grounds without referencing theology or mythology. [And I have before, here on your blog somewhere]
Well, Beamish, we'll have to agree to disagree.
I just hope so many schools stop teaching our kids for weeks about Islam, with fasting for days, showing how to bend over to pray, etc etc....and maybe stop discouraging kids from Christ.
By the way, when kids start asking for anything but quiet time, like facing mecca, etc.? We say that's not done here...Sit quietly and enjoy the silence. I'm tired of bowing, trust me. But, our constant drumbeat of Anti-Christianity is opening the doors, believe me.
I'm hoping for an answer regarding birds and how they fly and where that fits into evolution :-) But, I won't get into it here, like I said...just too interesting a thought to discard.
Z;
Education is education,
Literature, Human sciences, Maths, Physics, Biology, painting, Music.
All these disciplines is to widen the kids thoughts horizons.
While religious education of any kid is to polarize the kids free and innocent heart and brain.
Why not let the kids to chose their own faith when they become adult?
Excuse me Z; PAPA, that's me SAM
This is one to ponder.
"Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid says congressional lawmakers are discussing taking some action in response to the Koran burnings of a Tennessee pastor that led to killings at the U.N. facility in Afghanistan and sparked protests across the Middle East, Politico reports.
“Ten to 20 people have been killed," Reid said Sunday on CBS’ “Face the Nation.” “We’ll take a look at this of course. As to whether we need hearings or not, I don’t know.”
Sen. Lindsey Graham said Congress might need to explore the need to limit some forms of freedom of speech, in light of Tennessee pastor Terry Jones’ Quran burning, and how such actions result in enabling U.S. enemies.
"I wish we could find a way to hold people accountable. Free speech is a great idea, but we're in a war," Graham told CBS' Bob Schieffer on “Face the Nation” Sunday.
“During World War II, we had limits on what you could do if it inspired the enemy," Graham said, adding certain speech can “put our troops at risk.”
But Bible burning and flag burning are OK....? We have to protect the Islamists from killing others cause we don't agree with their wishes to enslave us?
Free speech is a "great" idea? Where the hell do we get these damn fools from?
I happen to agree with Beamish but also suggest that secular humanism describes itself as a religion over two dozen times in the humanist manifesto.its tje prevailing philosophy /religion taught in our public schools. So the idea of separation of church and state in public schools is a facade.
Well, Beamish, we'll have to agree to disagree.
I agree ;)
I just hope so many schools stop teaching our kids for weeks about Islam, with fasting for days, showing how to bend over to pray, etc etc....and maybe stop discouraging kids from Christ.
Oh, I'd elevate allegorical post-mortem fiery domain of the damned if some public school teacher pushed Islam on my hypothetical kids.
By the way, when kids start asking for anything but quiet time, like facing mecca, etc.? We say that's not done here...Sit quietly and enjoy the silence. I'm tired of bowing, trust me. But, our constant drumbeat of Anti-Christianity is opening the doors, believe me.
Isn't the very act of entrusting your kid's moral and religious instruction to a government-sponsored indoctrination center "opening the doors?"
I'm hoping for an answer regarding birds and how they fly and where that fits into evolution :-) But, I won't get into it here, like I said...just too interesting a thought to discard.
See, that's a science question :)
"Why not let the kids to chose their own faith when they become adult?"
That's fine, SAM, let them! To have good morals and good upbringing from faith while children are growing, however, is not hurtful, Sam. Some may go to extremes, that's not the problem of faith, that's an individual's mistake in teaching.
What adult holds a gun to a child's head when they're grown and demand they stay with their faith? Nobody forces it.
By the way, in this country, love of country and respect for Christianity , are now taught OUT of our kids, so you need not worry.
Professors dare not speak against Islam, however.
"See, that's a science question :)"
OH, no at ALL....Only if you're an evolutionist.
see ya later.
"You want more than that. You want Christian praise and worship service in Trigonometry class."
Beamish, don't tell me what I want. I know what I want and it isn't what you said in the above quote.
The examples I gave you about what's going on in schools around the country, are ones I've read about.
You think I'm kidding about the kids not wearing red and green at Christmastime? Well, I'm not. It's not happening in every school, but it's happening.
I'm talking about school today, not when you went.
Do you think today there isn't controversy when a school choir want's to sing the Hallelujiah Chorus? Well there is. And you can forget the entire Handel's Messiah.
God knows what they sing now, since most beautiful chorales are faith based, including gospel music.
I have Michelangelo's and DaVinci's works in books at home, so my Grandson had access to those
here.
As for classic literature, I'm the one who introduced my Grandson to the classics.
The list the teacher sent home for the kids to pick from was filled with those formulaic series books. Crap, in other words.
During the 70's my daughter's required reading in literature class then, was Betty Friedan, Eldridge Cleaver, and three others in the same vain. So much for classic literature.
When I asked the teacher where Hemingway and Shakespeare were, he said they were irrelevant.
This sort of thing has been going on a long time. It's just getting worse.
I'm hoping for an answer regarding birds and how they fly and where that fits into evolution :-) But, I won't get into it here, like I said...just too interesting a thought to discard.
Fish beached themselves on dry land, and the sun started drying them out, so they started flapping their fins to cool themselves off and the fish that could flap their fins fast enough actually took flight... ;)
Beamish, did I say Christianity was the sole influence on our laws? No, I didn't.
Don't twist my meaning please. I get enough of that from Ducky.
That's enough. I'm not going to repeat myself. When you have kids in school get back to me.
The problems of the Middle east is coming from USA, always.
The burning of Koran is condemnable like burning of Evangelin and Torah.
But when USA bends his democratic principals to please the fanatics, this is the problem.
Instead of limiting the free speech in the USA, USA should BOMB to dust those FANATICS.
Unfortunately USA and EU have chosen to bend themselves by revising their own principals.
How the people can place their trust on a superpower that changes his rules for the sake of the subhumans?!
SAM
"see ya later."
Yup....adios Ms.Z. I got it.
Beamish, thanks! Alert the scientists, there IS no explanation on record yet but yours :-)
SAM....one small church burned the koran...in all 300 million Americans.
I have thought someone's behind the anger in the Middle East over this; it's unnatural and I believe it's agenda-driven.
Did you know the new EU Calender had no Christian holidays on it? ONLY ISLAMIC HOLIDAYS. That's the truth... and it went through THREE layers of people checking for mistakes.
They say now nobody noticed.
This has to stop.
that wasn't for you, Major!
Stick around! REALLY! ???
It was my way of telling Beamish, I'm just about DONE with all of this discussion :-)
plus, I do have to go downstairs and do some stuff now...see you all later :-)
The U.S. Supreme Court in 1990 upheld the Equal Access Act of 1984, in which Congress said schools accepting federal aid must not discriminate against groups based on the "religious, political, philosophical or other content of the speech at such meetings."
So the schools are lying to the students and their parents. They can even have prayer meetings on campus if they choose to.
Pris,
You cite some pretty extreme examples. It's never occured to me that wearing red and green in December was Christian testimony. Granted, I've not set foot in a Christian church in over 20 years but I don't think the religion has changed that much in that span of time that it got a dress code.
I remember in college some Campu$ Cru$ade for Chri$t salesman came up to me and asked if I worshipped Buddha because I had on a jade Buddha pendant around my neck that I happened to think was cool. My response was "do you worship polyester?"
I was a lot more sarcastic in those days, believe it or not ;)
I guess my question would be "why wouldn't the Hallelujah Chorus be controversial?" Tradition holds that the audience must stand while the choir sings it. And certainly the lyrics of the song are in fact worshipful praise of the Almighty. "Hallelujah" means "praise ye the LORD" - if it's not controversial to instruct public school children to sing a religious sentiment, surely it's controversial to take a religious song into the context of performing for entertainment. At that point you might as well replace the cross in a church with a Pepsi-Cola logo. What's the difference, right?
As for what's regarded relevant in literature in school, I read Chaucer and Hemingway, Shakespeare and Dickens, Eldridge Cleaver and J.D. Salinger... tame and "controversial."
Every school and school teacher is different, I suppose. I was exposed to the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Heh, I even watched the Spaghetti western in film class.
Beamish, thanks! Alert the scientists, there IS no explanation on record yet but yours
I kid, but my point is answering the question as to "why do birds fly" is science question, and it poses challenges to the evolutionist that "God done it" does not.
If you think dismissing religious doctrine from scientific purview is offensive, consider the quid pro quo and reverse...
Do you really want someone psychoanalyzing the God character in the Bible?
Z;
No matter who burned the Koran, attacking the people and killing the people for burning a book is condemnable, and limiting the freedom of speech in the USA to calm the criminal fanatics in Afghanistan is sharing the crimes of those Fanatics, this is condemnable.
SAM
And Christianity isn't? Slavery? Women's rights?
My what a difference 90 years makes.
----------
I'm so confused.
One week you argue for Christianity.
The next you argue against it.
What do you believe?
Or do you just like arguing?
"Do you really want someone psychoanalyzing the God character in the Bible?"
Please don't put down despicable God references here to prove your point because I don't want that at geeeZ, and we, neither of us, has the time or energy to argue that, but would I have a problem with people who understand the Scripture psychoanalyzing the God Character (which is, after all, pretty much all Bible Study really IS?)??...no problem whatsoever.
And yes, when you can't figure out why birds fly, and experts can't either,there's nothing at all shameful or unintelligent about the response that "It must be GOd.." What's shameful is we don't allow mention of that in a science class discussing EVOLUTION.
You've lost me completely on your suggestion that THE MESSIAH by Handel shouldn't be sung in schools...i'm kind of surprised, Beamish. real.
As for COllege Crusade... they've brought people to belief; you'd be surprised how many, and I wouldn't stop them for anything. Could I do that? I'm ashamed to say I could not.
SAM, I understand that...you're right. And, if ONE poor little comic writer writes the slightest negative thing about Mohammed, as you know, American secularists and liberals who don't believe in freedom of speech in the name of "NOBODY SHOULD GET HURT "(!) will be crucifying the comic strip writer. It's okay to kill FREEDOM so that nobody is hurt.....it's ridiculous, dangerous, and unAmerican...
A little comic strip writer will get the same treatment as Solomon Rushdi.. almost the same scale.
Craig, sorry half the country are morons.
When you can come back and not be the typical angry, close-minded lib, I won't delete.
thanks.
Beamish, the audience never stood when we(HS choir), sang The Messiah or a section from it.
"surely it's controversial to take a religious song into the context of performing for entertainment. At that point you might as well replace the cross in a church with a Pepsi-Cola logo. What's the difference, right?"
Not right Beamish. You're out there on a limb now. But, what the hell why have a choir, when you can listen to loud noise like heavy metal instead of music!
I'm done!
Jen, I was just about thinking that myself.
Pris, I never saw anybody stand for the Messiah or any part of it, either, come to think of it.
Z, I didn't call anyone a moron and I'm not angry. The Theory of Evolution is the unifying principle of biology. Creationism is not science and shouldn't be taught as such.
I'd still like to hear beamish argue against TOE, scientifically.
Craig, I wish I'd kept your comment so I could reprint it...I'll try to remember next time. Easy to say you didn't accuse half the country of being morons when you slurred anybody not thinking like you do.
By the way, the TOE does not preclude that God started life. Or was behind the Big Bang Theory.
Odd that, in Genesis, it discusses condensation and how rain becomes water and atmosphere becomes moist from water in the opening verses.....just amazing!! written before scientists existed...
It's a good day to go outside and take a look at the beauty of nature and realize that whatever I'm mad about won't go away by obsessing in the comments section.
----
Ducky, did you watch the Red Sox last night?
I tell ya, I just LOVE it when they walk Josh Hamilton...
;-)
And Craig, I really don't care if you're angry or not, but please stop slamming FOX here, I don't come to your blog and slam MSNBC or CNN. Personally, I NEED news where all sides are represented and that's why, as often as I watch CNN, I have to go to FOX quite a bit nowadays. I hear everyone's ideas, not just the left's ;that helps.
Craig,
My argument against evolution theory was a longish back and forth thread here, at least a year ago if not two, and if I recall correctly, it was tangential and off-topic of the the actual thread so Lord knows how to find it now.
I was in the middle ground position between Faith's 6,000 year old "Young Earthism" and a Neo-Anaximanderian fish cultist named PsiBond. Faith based her creation arguments on scripture, PsiBond based his arguments on necromantic rituals involving fossilized animal remains.
It was a lively debate, heh.
My contentions were backed up by the fact that molecular phylogenetics is rendering taxonomical species classification schemes indefensibly absurd.
I don't believe in a single progressive "evolution tree" with a single, common abiogenetic ancestral origin point from which all life evolved and branched from.
I believe in a "forest" of "evolution trees" tracing back to several thousands of independent, unconnected abiogenetic origin points. This is, I believe, consistent with creationism's contention that all forms of life on Earth do not trace back lineage to a common ancestor - potatoes and grasshoppers aren't distant cousins, and it's consistent with the evolutionist school that life forms have changed over time via natural selection.
Basically I turn evolution theory on its head. If life can have a single abiogenetic or exogenetic origin point from which life branched and fanned out from into many different forms, why can't different forms of life have seperate, independent, and different abiogenetic and exogenetic origin points?
I've bogged this thread down enough playing "Devil's Advocate" against mandatory volunteerism (volun-toldism) of religion participation in public schools without tangenting further into a rehashed "Did Adam have nipples and a belly button" discussion.
Perhaps a different time, if Z wants to host a creationism vs. Anaximaderianism discussion.
[Unless you can point me to a fresh one elsewhere...]
that'll be good elsewhere, Beamish.
Why not YOUR blog? :-)
Your cousin,
The Cauliflower
and NEVER mention psi bond here again.
pleeeeeeeeeeease :-) I shivered when I saw that. I swear.
I'm so confused.
One week you argue for Christianity.
The next you argue against it.
What do you believe?
I've not argued against Christianity whatsoever.
[Jesus is just alright with me, oh yeah...]
I'm arguing against the idea that Christianity isn't "recognized" in school unless, atop showing it in history, art, music, and literature, there's also shut up and pray time mandated.
Or do you just like arguing?
I never could get the pseudo-piety software to run.
"The Cauliflower"
Then most certainly and assuredly I'm the Eggplant in the room..LOL
My pre evo days were when I was forced to wear a tin hat. :-)
"it discusses condensation and how rain becomes water and atmosphere becomes moist from water in the opening verses.....just amazing!! written before scientists existed..."
Basic meteorology. Which is why we can't ever run out of water. I had to put my 2c in...
You've lost me completely on your suggestion that THE MESSIAH by Handel shouldn't be sung in schools...i'm kind of surprised, Beamish. real.
I didn't say it shouldn't be sung. I was implying that it shouldn't be blithely sung. It's a beautiful piece of music, and there's no lack of talent involved in singing it.
But, when the choir program is "sign praises to the LORD God or drop out of the program" - which is what requiring kids to perform the Hallelujah Chorus in effect and actuality is, is it really respecting God and Christianity as you wish it to be? Shouldn't the subject matter matter?
Handel's Messiah isn't offensive to me in the hearing, but the thought of it being required material of choir students, who may or may not be personally religious, to perform for school functions (or else) is almost like requiring Jewish students to sing the Horst Wessel Lied to demonstrate their singing skills.
It's "just a song," right?
As for COllege Crusade... they've brought people to belief; you'd be surprised how many, and I wouldn't stop them for anything. Could I do that? I'm ashamed to say I could not.
I wasn't trying to stop the CCFC guy. I was just not buying what he was selling that day. Wearing a jade Buddha pendant around my neck didn't make me a Buddhist anymore than his polyester shirt made him a Polyesterist. Yeah, I was a jackass to him, but at the time, he was a jackass to me.
"surely it's controversial to take a religious song into the context of performing for entertainment. At that point you might as well replace the cross in a church with a Pepsi-Cola logo. What's the difference, right?"
Not right Beamish. You're out there on a limb now. But, what the hell why have a choir, when you can listen to loud noise like heavy metal instead of music!
Well, you can have a choir to sing. Do you want your public school kids to sing the Islamic call to prayer?
I'm done!
You started? When?
beamish, what's the problem with THE MESSIAH? Jewish or Muslim kids can't be made to sing it because it's about the Messiah? REALLY?
Man, we have songs about all kinds of things, are we so soft a kid shouldn't be MADE to sing a gorgeous piece of music? or listen to it?
Imp: That's basic meteorology written in the 1st century when nobody knew what meteorology was or why we have water or clouds...I think that's pretty amazing.
Elbro; then you're falling for Beamish's exaggerations; he's taking arguments of ours to the Nth degree and arguing it there.
Sorry, B, but that's how it sounds to me.
I'll say one more thing and then, like Pris, I really AM DONE.
(and just in case you give me the same lip you gave Pris for using those words, Beamish, I really DID start this whole thing:-)
I just did some bible study homework and randomly opened the bible up and immediately saw this:
"..it is good to wait quietly for the salvation of the Lord"...
right, as usual.
We either believe or not believe and the future, and our future, will take care of itself. No arguing here or trying to disclaim God or defending Him (as if anybody needs to?) is even worth it in the scheme of things.
Thus spake Z...!!
Amen.
By the way, I've got four pages of questions to answer, tons of references to look up for clarification on the questions I'm to answer and, lo and behold, I'm plodding along only to find the same exact quote above, from Lamentations, is referenced to make another point. This stuff happens to me ALL the time.
I don't think I've ever read or been referenced to Lamentations before, but today, while I sat there downstairs over my homework feeling like sometimes these Faith Blogs go places I don't feel are blessing anybody, I find "WAIT QUIETLY"
I'm not shutting these down, I can't BE that "quiet!" but I'm going to try not to be quite so controversial in my posts on Sundays........we need a break on ONE DAY!
you're all fantastic (except Ducky and Craig, of course...ha!!)
happy SUnday night, everybody.
beamish, what's the problem with THE MESSIAH? Jewish or Muslim kids can't be made to sing it because it's about the Messiah? REALLY?
Look deeper. The Hallelujah Chorus is not "just a song" any more than Hitler's Mein Kampf is "just a book."
Take the Pepsi Challenge. The Islamic athan (call to prayer) lyrically praises the Mecca Meteorite and Muhammad. Aesthetically, it's not really hideous to listen to. It does takes talent to sing it as well. There is a haunting beauty to it, outside my very strong distaste for Islam. The lyrics have a very specific functional purpose and meaning. Nobody jams out to the athan. [It might be cool with a dance remix though, granted]
Should public school kids be REQUIRED to perform it as a choir production if they want to participate in the school's choir program?
Now, step back to Handel's Messiah. It too praises the Judeo-Christian God and Jesus, specifically. Its lyrics also have a specific meaning and functional purpose - PRAISING GOD.
Neither the athan or the Hallelejah Chorus are "just songs." They're implicitly worshipful. Not entertainment.
Thus, requiring public school kids to sing those songs would be requiring those kids to participate in worship, of a God they may or may not believe in.
Man, we have songs about all kinds of things, are we so soft a kid shouldn't be MADE to sing a gorgeous piece of music? or listen to it?
Should a public school kid be made to sing and perform Hare Krishna or fail his choir class?
Should a forensics class be required to memorize and recite Hitler's Nuremberg speech?
and just in case you give me the same lip you gave Pris for using those words, Beamish, I really DID start this whole thing
Well, you've been a lot more respectful to me and honestly debating too, than Pris.
She knows, as well as I do, that she explicitly wants public schools to be Christian faith indoctrination centers.
That she has shame in admitting that is not my problem. This isn't Dance Dance Revolution. If I wanted wishy washy, I'd try to decipher Obama's Libya policy.
I zeroed in on her argument. She thinks Christianity is under assault because there's no prayer time in gym class.
Done? She never got out of the gate.
"What about Pentecostal kids who need to scream and babble and handle snakes while praying?"
Beamish, Beamish, Beamish!
Is that really you? I know you can't possible believe that! In all of my years, I've NEVER seen a Pentecostal kid who needed to scream, and babble, and handle snakes!
It's true that you will find glossolalia in Pentecostal denominations, and snake handling is practiced in very few churches, but certainly not by children.
I realize that you were trying to make a point, and I've even done the same thing in mentioning snake handling when trying to make a point about Muslims demanding certain things to accommodate the practice of their religion...but I think you over generalized a bit here...don't you?
As for the glossolalia which you've referred to as "babbling," well, I think I wouldn't have said such a thing, without truly knowing what that's all about. Perhaps, you do...but that's just my own feeling about it.
I kind of understand how you can say the things you've said, trying to follow your logic as much as possible, but Z, and the others are absolutely right in their thinking....at first Christianity was kind of being edged out of school, but now, it seems that it is being bulldozed out, in favor of a religion that is diametrically opposed to everything that this country was founded upon...even though, that too has become a thorn in the side of so many.
I hate to see what our country has become, how our people are turning on one another, which to me, is not by accident.
Now, debating of any subject is not my forte, so I've just said what I feel....and I hope it is received in the same spirit in which I've written it.
Beamish"Should a public school kid be made to sing and perform Hare Krishna or fail his choir class?
Should a forensics class be required to memorize and recite Hitler's Nuremberg speech?"
Both are educational and I wouldn't have a problem with either...absolutely not. I'd encourage it. They SHOULD learn the Nuremberg speech and know about it, they should be able to sing any song they want to..they could sing Deutschland Deutschland UBER ALLES if they like the melody and they're instructed as to what the song is about and why the Germans were told to remove UBER ALLES from the lyrics...then enjoy the absolute beauty of the melody when sung slowly and full of harmony...terrific.
I have no problem with that.
This isn't life-changing stuff here, this is participating in all kinds of input...
This is Education....
"I hate to see what our country has become, how our people are turning on one another, which to me, is not by accident."
Quite possibly, the US of Cambodia? Too many buttons being pushed by too many unwelcome people, pushing for very, very unwanted changes to our core values.
I think that 911 mosque could be a turning point for America....as well as muslim intrusion into our gut instincts. We all know it's vile and wrong.
We'll see.
But when two US senators say....I understand the 1st amendment...BUT....we're on a very slippery slope. There's no doubt in my mind this country is half of what it once was. The right half and the dangerous half.
Beamish! "She knows, as well as I do, that she explicitly wants public schools to be Christian faith indoctrination centers."
Show me where PRis said that.
Beamish, you did well and I couldn't agree more.
People want religion in public schools as long as it's their religion, they just don't seem to get it.
You do not need religion of any kind to have a relationship with God.
To me, organized religion is the Devils greatest achievement.
Imagine a World with NO religion. There will never be peace in this World as long as there's religion in it.
"To me, organized religion is the Devils greatest achievement."
Especially when he crawled into mohammed's sick cranium and invented islam.
And don't give me the tired old bromides on Christianity of 500 years ago either.
Man created religion not God. God's message was simple and to the point, man screwed it up.
No one ever takes the Bible for what it means, they take it for what they think it means and therefore is the problem.
"man screwed it up."
Men like these then who are compelled to enslave us all?
Watch...learn. We are at war with them...they think so....we need to say so.
http://tinyurl.com/yj2bygk
If Graham and the twerp Reid were referring to these fascists...he might have a point. But they do not....they want to shut us up instead.
Watch...learn. We are at war with them...they think so....we need to say so.
If there was NO religion we wouldn't be at war with them now would we?
If there were no atheists there would be 100 million more people that the communists hadn't killed
Is that really you? I know you can't possible believe that! In all of my years, I've NEVER seen a Pentecostal kid who needed to scream, and babble, and handle snakes!
It's me, warts and all.
I wasn't trying to bag on Pentecostals so much as challenge the notion that a daily mandatory "moment of silence" ceremony in public school is all that "accomodating" to the prayerful, be they the "maketh a joyful noise unto the LORD" or the "when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly" types.
I don't know. I guess I'm one of those odd Christians that actually has read the Bible for comprehension. "Look at me I'm SuperChristian" types are just as quizzical to me those that believe God can create the universe and part the Red Sea but can't be present in a classroom despite secular curricula.
It's true that you will find glossolalia in Pentecostal denominations, and snake handling is practiced in very few churches, but certainly not by children.
Okay, mea culpa my bad on kids with snakes. But "glossolalia" - "speaking in tongues" without interpretation, without someone in the audience that should recieve that in his own language and recognize what's been said, is not Biblical, it's babbling. Sorry Pentecostals...
I realize that you were trying to make a point, and I've even done the same thing in mentioning snake handling when trying to make a point about Muslims demanding certain things to accommodate the practice of their religion...but I think you over generalized a bit here...don't you?
Well, that's the fun of mandatory generic public school time shut up and pray "silent time," isn't it? One size fits all religions, except it doesn't, especially not Biblical Christianity.
[continued]
As for the glossolalia which you've referred to as "babbling," well, I think I wouldn't have said such a thing, without truly knowing what that's all about. Perhaps, you do...but that's just my own feeling about it.
Meh. Oneness Pentecostals claim a person isn't truly saved and in reciept of the Holy Spirit unless he speaks in tongues. How sad is it that so many Oneness Pentacostals die believing their not saved "yet."
I do know all the standard arguments for Pentecostal "tongues" doctrines. No offense intended, but what the Bible actually says on the matter is more appealing to me.
I kind of understand how you can say the things you've said, trying to follow your logic as much as possible, but Z, and the others are absolutely right in their thinking....at first Christianity was kind of being edged out of school, but now, it seems that it is being bulldozed out, in favor of a religion that is diametrically opposed to everything that this country was founded upon...even though, that too has become a thorn in the side of so many.
Public school's a horrible place to raise kids, isn't it? It's supposed to be preparing them for life and careers, higher education and gainful employment; and instead it's become a battleground for every weird agenda du jour you can think of. Including mistaking biology class for church.
I hate to see what our country has become, how our people are turning on one another, which to me, is not by accident.
Bah. People have been turning on each other for millenia, over all sorts of things. It's not a sign of anything but the fact that we're humans. Baskin Robbins just hasn't created as many favorite flavors as "Christianity" has.
Now, debating of any subject is not my forte, so I've just said what I feel....and I hope it is received in the same spirit in which I've written it.
It was. I just don't fall for the idea that the Gospel is on its last legs because it's not brought to you by the US Department of Education.
"If there was NO religion we wouldn't be at war with them now would we?"
But there is, I thought you had common sense. There's one "religion" posing as such when in reality it's a thinly disguised manifesto on the destruction of America. You dweebs wishing it weren't so...will not alter their course.
Maybe you're OK with dying under a muslims sword or AK...but I'm not.
I'm not...simpleton.
Beamish! "She knows, as well as I do, that she explicitly wants public schools to be Christian faith indoctrination centers."
Show me where PRis said that.
If you're going to play stupid, do I treat you as stupid, or give you an Oscar?
Somewhere in this thread, near the top I think, Pris said:
Christianity is the overwhelming religious faith in America. Aggressive demands seem to work for islam, therefore aggressive demands must be made by all other faiths as well.
If we are so intimidated and weak not to stand up for our religion, we deserve to be discounted. It's up to us.
Cloaking recognition of the muslim faith in schools as a study of their culture is a ruse, I contend Christianity has a culture as well. This is nothing more than discrimination.
Things in America have deteriorated since the assault against Chritianity began. Morality as well has declined as a result.
If Christian children can't mention Jesus, then muslims can't mention Muhammed.
Nah, she doesn't want Christianity pushed in schools at all. What was I thinking?
Common Sense, I'm curious because you do seem somewhat accusatory or angry at most of my Sunday Faith blogs.
You say there's a difference between God and any religion; what informs you about God? You seem to have a relationship or at least believe in God. Why? The trees, oceans...? what informs you about Him?
Beamish, are you addressing ME with this? "If you're going to play stupid, do I treat you as stupid, or give you an Oscar?"
Are you serious? You'd tell a friend that? Really?
Which of those comments of Pris made you feel she wants CHRISTIAN FAITH INDOCTRINATION CENTERS?
Because a kid should be able to mention Jesus without getting a reprimand?
because morality has gone downhill since the assault on CHristianity?
Because Islam's okay in public schools but Jesus isn't?
Because we should defend our faith?
Which of the nature of those comments makes you read anything about indoctrination centers for Jesus in there?
"It was. I just don't fall for the idea that the Gospel is on its last legs because it's not brought to you by the US Department of Education."
Oh, dear Beamish..the Gospel isn't on its last legs, for any reason, nor will it ever be.
I do think that, perhaps, some things are being taken out of context, here, or some are just misunderstanding what some others are trying to convey.
I don't think anyone is trying to say that religion of any kind SHOULD be taught in our schools, only that NONE of them should be forced on anyone...nor instructed in any kind of ritual, of any particular faith, especially to the exclusion of others.
In this country, though, moments of prayer, such as the Lord's Prayer, etc.,used to be an integral part of the beginning of the class room day...at least when I was in school..and anyone who chose not to recite it, didn't have to.
Now, it seems that if ANYTHING has to do with Christianity, in school, it is to be avoided, in order not to offend those whom practice Islam, or happen to be Atheists, or any others preferring nothing to do with the Christians' God.
And, contrary to what has been said, America IS a Christian Nation, and we shouldn't have to change our belief system in order to appease others.
I don't know the answer to all of this, nor how it could ever be resolved to the satisfaction of everyone.
"I do know all the standard arguments for Pentecostal "tongues" doctrines. No offense intended, but what the Bible actually says on the matter is more appealing to me."
Me, too, Beamish...which is one of the reasons I would never call it "babbling."
There is way too much involved in a discussion of glossolalia to even try to post in comments..especially on someone else's blog.
I still like you, Mr. B :)
Forgive me, Z, for posting another long comment.
Beamish,
I have two teacher editions of 9th grade literature books and there is no mention of Christianity anywhere in them. No Biblical allusions, no explanations of symbolism and why it was important... Nothing.
In reality, it's very very easy to omit Christianity from the classroom, you simply make sure it's not in the curriculum and you make damn sure it's not in the textbooks, either in the student or teacher editions and boom, it looks like Frankenstein where God is never mentioned...
Beamish, are you addressing ME with this? "If you're going to play stupid, do I treat you as stupid, or give you an Oscar?"
Are you serious? You'd tell a friend that? Really?
Yes, yes, and absolutely take it to the bank yes. I apologized for my brusque tone (check your email), it was a harsh for me to call you stupid. It was
But (and yes, I know it's poor form to attach a "but" to an apology) I just find it incredible that you would mistake Pris' histrionics for a rational argument.
And I find it incredible that "conservatives" think a government-run education facility is (or should be) the bulwark against "moral decay."
And who elected anyone here the arbiter of "moral decay" anyway?
When's the fitting of all you stinkin' lefties for Che Guevara T-shirts? :P
I tease, but only to make a point.
Which of those comments of Pris made you feel she wants CHRISTIAN FAITH INDOCTRINATION CENTERS?
Apparently the teaching of Christianity in history, in the arts, in music, and in literature isn't enough. I mean, if Pris is "so intimidated and weak not to stand up for her religion, she deserves to be discounted." Right?
So what does "standing up for her religion" entail...
Because a kid should be able to mention Jesus without getting a reprimand?
I hear after six reprimands they resort to throwing you to lions or burning you at the stake.
::rolls eyes::
because morality has gone downhill since the assault on CHristianity?
As compared to when? I'm reasonably certain my great-great grandfather's generation thought my grandfather's generation were of loose and decaying morals, what with their Satanic jazz music and ::gasp:: being seen talking to "colored" people.
Isn't the "decaying morals" argument like 1300 years overplayed yet? Jesus is coming, look busy.
Because Islam's okay in public schools but Jesus isn't?
I don't get where you see "Islam's okay, Jesus isn't" in public schools. Show me the public schools where kids are being beaten with tow chains if they don't memorize the Quran. Show me the public schools where mentioning Jesus gets you put in detention or suspended from school.
Show me, of America's 81.5 million public education students, how many are being "persecuted" for their Christian faith?
Because we should defend our faith?
With what? From who?
Which of the nature of those comments makes you read anything about indoctrination centers for Jesus in there?
All of them.
Jan,
Theology's a fun topic for me. But yes, this is not the place or time to play "my sect's better than yours."
I have oodles and oodles of problems with Pentecostal doctrine. We'll just leave it at that.
Vegas Guy,
Sounds like a crappy Lit book.
Can you list the titles and authors in the textbook?
I'm not after calling your bluff. I'm truly curious.
Still, even if they've somehow managed to remove Christian references and settings from literature, they can't yank it out of history or the arts or music.
Beamish, I got your apology and appreciate it very much.
But I still think you've got a notion and won't let it go and neither Pris NOR I want any Christian indoctrination.
I'll paste some of what I just emailed you here:
"I, for one, do NOT want Christianity taught in schools, I just want it not ignored or mocked and I don't feel any Jews were hurt or felt subjugated to anything untoward when they sang SILENT NIGHT with me in the third grade, either...i've asked TONS of Jews as an adult in conversations about this and none of them said they felt the least but usurped or proselytized to... Why not go back to those days? What was wrong? Nobody was TEACHING CHRISTIANITY, they were just doing what they'd always done.........until islam arrived. Odd, that. That's all I meant and I think that's all Pris means."
RE morality, I think there IS a difference in the last 10 years alone! I'm pretty darned sure no 10 yr olds were having oral sex in school buses in your grandfather's day.
And I'm pretty sure they didn't do condom demonstrations in class, either.
And I'm very sure NO kid told their teacher to "F OFF" or "SHUT UP" or didn't answer when spoken to like what happens in many schools today.
I could go on.
You hate public schools, I know that, we all do......to say "I hate public school and I don't like my faith even hinted at in them" is another thing and something I might agree with :-)
I'll paste my reply... :P
I, for one, do NOT want Christianity taught in schools, I just want it not ignored or mocked
What are the opposites of "ignored" and "mocked?"
The antonyms of "ignore" are "attend (to), heed, mind, regard, tend (to)."
The antonyms of "mock" are "comply (with), conform (to), follow, mind, obey"
So, you don't want Christianity taught in schools, you just want it "attended to, heeded, minded, regarded, tended to, complied with, conformed to, followed, and obeyed."
I'm not trying to twist your words, it's just that that is precisely what you said actually means with dictionary antonyms replacing the "not ignored" and "not mocked"
And that's why it's apparent to me, at least that you and Pris are saying a lot more than you're admitting you're saying.
Especially as you add in the ideas that there's "moral decay in America" that only public school "attending to, heeding, minding, regarding, tending to, complying with, conforming to, following, and obeying" Christianity can reverse.
See where I'm coming from?
I think you're coming from the nuthouse by now, Beamish, my friend :-)
I know that ignore means to turn a back to, I know that mock means to insult....I'm sticking to it.
Goodnight. xx
At least they can't take it out of art, music, and history?
THEY ALREADY HAVE.
RE morality, I think there IS a difference in the last 10 years alone! I'm pretty darned sure no 10 yr olds were having oral sex in school buses in your grandfather's day.
Probably due to the lack of school buses... ;)
Back then, they probably just got naked and "played doctor."
I just don't buy the generational hoopla that somehow the kids today are innovating new ways to sin, or that racially segregated, sexually frustrated, lynch-mob stoking, atomic bomb tossing daddy works and mom stays home and does the mailman parents of the stinkin' hippies are a "morally superior" time to return to. There are no saints there.
And I'm pretty sure they didn't do condom demonstrations in class, either.
And we got the baby boomed stinkin' hippies to show for it.
And I'm very sure NO kid told their teacher to "F OFF" or "SHUT UP" or didn't answer when spoken to like what happens in many schools today.
Well, back then you'd get smacked around at home or at school by parents and teachers or both.
Nowadays a kid acts out like that he gets to visit a government licensed drug dealer until he finds the candy he likes.
I could go on.
So could I.
Government doesn't solve problems. Government IS the problem.
I know that ignore means to turn a back to, I know that mock means to insult....I'm sticking to it.
...and so, the opposite of "turning a back to" and the opposite of "insulting" is?
You're still not squirming free of the constraints you're placing on yourself.
You can't get to the elusive sweet spot position you want to have of "not teaching Christianity" but simultaneously "defending it against being ignored, abandoned, mocked, insulted..."
I don't think you can have the latter without teaching Christianity.
But then you come to the impasse... how much Christianity do you want to teach?
Early Christians were burned to death, crucified, stoned to death, fed to lions, beheaded, or drawn and quartered for their faith.
Being denied a soapbox in science class seems rather low-end on the persecution scale. But that's just me.
I'll go back to my nuthouse. :P
Thank you, Thank you common sense;
you said;
You do not need religion of any kind to have a relationship with God.
this is the lost word that I was looking for.
I read all the posts,
BUT this sentence captured me.
My Biblical education is done.
Thank you again.
And thank you my GOD.
SAM
Z, Yes I believe in a higher power but that is a conversation we will have if we should ever meet.
I will say this, if the God of the Bible, an all knowing all loving God created this World and this is the best he/she can do.....I'm not impressed.
"an all knowing all loving God created this World and this is the best he/she can do.....I'm not impressed."
Maybe you ought to take one last look around the US...then takeoff to any dung hole in the ME or islamic shit heap and say that again.
I'd like to hear your opinion after you make the trip.
We might have our problems but the ME is utterly irredeemable, unworthy, untrustworthy and doomed to failure.
I will say this, if the God of the Bible, an all knowing all loving God created this World and this is the best he/she can do.....I'm not impressed.
This says more about you that it does the God of the Bible.
I'm guessing that this is not a view that mountains and oceans are in the wrong place for your tastes?
I thought the rampant and hubristic holier-than-thou "Christian" view was disturbing and disdainful, but you've exceeded that, CS....
"Early Christians were burned to death, crucified, stoned to death, fed to lions, beheaded, or drawn and quartered for their faith."
With all due respect to your amazing powers of rationalization and argument...
We've come quite a long way since then, haven't we?
Whereas the islamist's still practice those acts. With the exception of lions being replaced by dogs
Are we as a civilized and mature society willing to wait another 1000 years till the savages catch up?
One doesn't need a church, but if it's the right one, it only helps greatly for study and the friendship and amazing support of other believers who help us on our road....I've been blessed greatly in that regard.
And, if CHristianity isn't true, one can grasp whatever image or interpretation of whatever god one wants, no doubt about it. good for you!
But, many of us see Christ in our lives every single day in a million ways and have joy in that beyond anything I could have ever understood even 12 years ago.
praise GOd. I wish you all peace...and an eternal life with Him.
if this is true, what a beautiful promise; if it's not, death will be as cold and unsatisfying as most of earthly life can be.
Thanks for all the input! Nobody here ever asks or ponders questions most of us CHristians here have......BELIEVE ME :-)
Just good to hear them again and be grateful!
I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize to anyone and all I offended in this thread. It wasn't my intent to offend. I offended and shamed myself more than I can express.
Sometimes my passion gets the better of me.
I'm guessing that this is not a view that mountains and oceans are in the wrong place for your tastes?
beamish, You're correct it's not a view of nature. It's a veiw of all the innocent men, women and children that suffer each and every day.
CS,
Find and read C.S. Lewis' essays "The Problem of Pain" and "The Problem of Evil."
I think those will resolve your dilemmas somewhat.
Your view is one that is not alien to me.
I was just about to post C S Lewis to Common Sense, too.
Thanks, Beamish.
That question of God's butler-ship plagued me for years "why doesn't he FIX BAD THINGS?" Who WOULDN"T ASK THAT?????????????. I think really starting to see that His will is only to bring us to Him, and pretty much nothing else, makes it easier for me to see why bad things happen (bad in our terms). Some leave Him when bad things happen, some go closer.
I know my friend with advancing MS and who is as intelligent as ANYBODY COMES, still puts ALL HER FAITH in HIM despite these challenges (she never calls them problems, by the way)...it's people like her, in my church community, who are the people I suggested earlier who help us on our path.
If anybody doesn't question God when seeing bad things, one IS a complete and utter nut...until we give it up and realize He's in control...and that this earth is but a blip on a radar screen in comparison to His eternity.
It took years and years and years for me to come to this...only through studying.
They say you need a leap of faith and that is SCARY, but I always say now that "it's a leap but there's a wonderful big net to catch you!"
I'm off for the morning...see y'all later. and thanks for the great dialogue...
Major,
With all due respect to your amazing powers of rationalization and argument...
No build-up or boilerpate needed. I'm afraid I sharpen my points so fine that no one can see them.
We've come quite a long way since then, haven't we?
I think not.
Whereas the islamist's still practice those acts. With the exception of lions being replaced by dogs
Women haven't even had the right to vote in America for 100 years yet. It's no where near 100 years since the last time a lynch mob gathered to perform an extra-judicial execution here in America. It's still within the lifetimes of many Americans living today that blacks weren't even allowed at the same public drinking fountains much less the same public schools as white people. And so on...
Are we as a civilized and mature society willing to wait another 1000 years till the savages catch up?
Not if we never get out of our diapers first.
Christians around the world are still being tortured, maimed, beheaded for their faith, and we're worried about Johnny being made to feel uncomfortable in his public school science class?
I just see a big disconnect there.
Learn from history?
The gates of Constantinople fell and the city taken by Muslim invaders while the Christian courts there were having a lively discussion amongst themselves about the wingspan of angels.
Follow your dreams and your beliefs. I wish you all, each and everyone only the best.
FT; please go away.
I don't need your ditties or your nasty remarks ..and I won't have them here.
thanks so much.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Consider that, please for, the nonce.
Those who think these rhymes are nasty,
Might require angioplasty.
Lee Strobel makes a case that pain makes an excellent case for the existence of God. I highly recommend his books its an interesting argument.
Elbro, I need to get that, thanks so much.
"Those who think these rhymes are nasty,
Might require angioplasty."
Free Thinker, how clever you must find that!
I don't want you here, I don't know which part of that you still can't understand. IS there nowhere else?
I wish you the best, I have enough on my hands here without having to have someone disabuse the blog.
How many times have I asked you just to COMMENT, no long copy/pastes and silly limericks and ditties?
So the first things you post are ditties and Oswald Chambers copy/pastes? really?
Then I delete you and you post again? Aren't you clever?
I feel for you and I do so wish you the best. I'll thank you for finally showing a shred of respect and leaving.
I've never ever been insulted as badly as you and I do forgive you but never want to go through that ever again and will not take the risk.
By the way, FT, who is the 'blog hog' now?
Have you ever thought you'd be the type of person you have become, commenting where you're not wanted, being deleted and then recommenting the same thing?
Does this make you proud? What's the matter with you?
Was what you said to me, that HORRIBLE stuff, and then your supposed apology, meant nothing?
I take it as nothing...thank you for the confirmation. z
That ugly orange brick is in my classroom so I will have to get the information for you. It weighs like 12 pounds so I don't carry it home with me... lol
Vegas Guy..what?? xx
Vegas Guy,
The name and publisher of the Literature textbook will be fine. I'm sure I can find its table of contents online.
Vegas GUy...ah, that big orange thing is the lit book....gotcha.
Beamish, you find that odd that Christianity's skipped in American textbooks? REALLY?
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