Saturday, May 28, 2011

A DELICATE BALANCE....another great Priscilla's Post

Freedom, Security, and Governmental Power

This is about the line drawn between keeping us secure and not impeding our right to be free. It's also about impeding our freedom with regard to issues which have nothing to do with our security.

This is a delicate balance, especially with terrorism afoot. However, who is it whose rights are being impinged upon and why? Will police or other government officials be able to come into our homes, "for the sake of the environment" and check our light bulbs? Our toilets? How far will this go?

We'll be told "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about," but, new laws can be passed, bans can be imposed, you name it, and pretty soon, it's a full blown police state. We can't profile can we, that's against civil rights, right?  But, to avoid profiling and offending Muslims, we can be felt up or scanned in an airport. We're at war, but we're the losers, we are the ones losing our rights.

I can envision scanners everywhere if we say nothing. As we speak, there are video cameras at intersections, malls, stores, and a multitude of public places. It seems we have accepted those with little outcry. It's as if all of us are potential criminals.

The American people are being trained to be subjects, serfs, which is counter to everything our founders envisioned for our people. It's up to us to stand up and say, "no more".

While next to nothing is done about our borders, and immigrants from the Middle East and countries on the terrorist list are now ostensibly free to come here (10 East Indians were apprehended only days ago in one of the round-ups crossing from Mexico into America), it's American citizens who are coming under the government's thumb. I believe we either follow the Constitution or we are at the mercy of our lawmakers and those in political power.

I've never even believed the police had the right to drunk driving checkpoints. I consider those to be a presumption of guilt placed on  citizens who the police have no probable cause to suspect of breaking  the law. But they do it, don't they?


These things are always explained away with "if you haven't broken the law, why should you care?" This is how it starts, and little by little, sooner or later, we're closer to a total police state. Crazy laws are passed all the time. And then of course, we have activist judges, and lawyers who can twist anything to arrive at the result they want.

If we're constantly watched or questioned, they'll get a bad guy now and then that they may not have gotten otherwise, but what will we > have given up? Our freedom. I don't think it's worth that and I fear that's what is going to happen. There is an ever growing encroachment, and it doesn't feel like it's going to stop anytime soon.

Thanks, Pris....it's a very difficult balance but something that needs to be addressed.  So, folks, what are we going to do about it?
Z

34 comments:

Brooke said...

"The American people are being trained to be subjects, serfs, which is counter to everything our founders envisioned for our people. It's up to us to stand up and say, "no more".

AMEN

Mustang said...

I am concerned about encroachment upon our Fourth Amendment rights, and have been since Bush gave us The Patriot Act. There is nothing patriotic about relinquishing unalienable rights to an incompetent government; I find the willingness of Americans to give up liberty for security baffling. Indiana’s high court recently decided that citizens have no right to defend their homes against police officers who enter their homes illegally —but I have to think this is precisely what our founding fathers had in mind. If the police have no warrant, then they stand inside our homes as intruders.

What can we do? It may take millions of us pushing back against congress through a massive letter-writing campaign. Whatever we can do, we should do.

I enjoy the Pris Posts …

Thersites said...

If you have a "right" to work, and a "right" to medical care, and a "right" to be fed from tax money extracted from fellow citizens...

Isn't it obvious that you no longer have a "right" to privacy in your own home, a "right" to enjoy the fruits of your own labour, and a "right" to not be searched, patted down, and breathalizered whenever the fount of the first three "rights" so orders/ ordains?

Thersites said...

Isaiah Berlin, "The Pursuit of the Ideal" (1988):

"The notion of the perfect whole, the ultimate solution, in which all good things coexist, seems to me to be not merely unattainable — that is a truism — but conceptually incoherent; I do not know what is meant by a harmony of this kind. Some among the Great Goods cannot live together. That is a conceptual truth. We are doomed to choose, and every choice may entail an irreparable loss. Happy are those who live under a discipline which they accept without question, who freely obey the orders of their leaders, spiritual or temporal, whose word is fully accepted as unbreakable law; or those who have, by their own methods, arrived at clear and unshakeable convictions about what to do and what to be that brook no possible doubt. I can only say that those who rest on such comfortable beds of dogma are victims of forms of self-induced myopia, blinkers that may make for contentment, but not for understanding of what it is to be human."

Ducky's here said...

You want freedom, join a biker gang.

Z said...

Brooke....but, we're not doing it...and our kids don't even know what it's like not to be spoon fed by the gov't.

Mustang, I do think that there are provisions in the Patriot Act we need.... I don't think it's an 'all or nothing' situation, which is why it's such a 'delicate balance'
And, I don't think anything we do now is going to make a difference, but I hope you're right.

Thersites; right. You can't have it both ways.

Ducky, bikers live here, too; their rights are going as well as ours.

Ducky's here said...

We can't profile can we, that's against civil rights, right? But, to avoid profiling and offending Muslims, we can be felt up or scanned in an airport.

----------------

This get's to the crux. If someone's Muslim, they get a full cavity search and you don't get inconvenienced. The heck with the other person's rights, what's important here is YOUR rights.
And it doesn't matter who the others are, leftists, Muslims, atheists, homosexuals ... you view them as threat so they can be "profiled".

Ask you to change bulbs because it might have conservation benefits? Nope, not a right winger because their whims take precedence over the the community.

The only rights you recognize are your personal whims and when conflicts of interest arise, well either it goes your way or you moan about activist judges. Or you play the Randoid and pretend those conflicts vanish in the Libertarian sand box.

Z said...

Ducky, you just can't get it, can you.
Please link about muslims getting 'full cavity searches'..so far, muslims are denying the pat-downs American non-Muslims are getting..
And, don't look now, but we ARE inconvenienced...did you READ Pris's post?

And, yes, I know...you won't mind anybody coming to your door checking your light bulbs because it feels kind of cozy and "East German" to you.

The only reason you're not 'moaning about activist' judges is you celebrate them more than the Constitution because, right now, they're mostly leftwingers.
Soon, the SCOTUS will be as well and you'll be so happy with your activists, won't you.

Get lost.

Pris said...

Mustang, thank you.

This is why the tea party formed. We knew we were getting steamrolled, and our voices were not being heard.

The consent of the governed was not given, and freedom took a huge hit.

It's true, the encroachment on our rights is growing at every level of government, from local, to state, to federal.

I just heard yesterday that a local city here in California, is considering a law banning circumcision in babies. One wonders, if this can be banned, what can't be? What about parental rights? It's unbelievable!

This is what I mean about crazy laws. There is no end to the insanity of micro-managing people's lives, which is just another term for abridging our rights as free people.

Under Bush, the purpose of the Patriot Act was limited to our efforts re terrorism, but it could be abused under our current President, or Dept. of Justice or future Presidents.

This makes the rule of a specific law suspect, and dependent on a leader, which flies in the face of our system of checks and balances.

Bob said...

Great post, Pris.

Z said: "So, folks, what are we going to do about it?"

We are already doing it. I already render homage to Big Brother with the UDS (Universal Digital Salute) when driving past the ubiquitous red light cameras.

I already blog about the shortcomings of Big O (the 21st Century Big Brother). Admittedly, I may use words that are too big for the average Obama supporter, but I try to do my part in getting the word out.

Most of us already support the Tea Party. Well, I haven't been to a rally, yet, but I am working on it.

Just what can we do that we are not doing already? There is an answer.

Civil disobedience should be on the menu. I don't believe the Tea Party is the group for this action. Or maybe they are.

We need to follow Obama's blueprint. His only success in life has been in community organizing, which means all he did was organize demonstrations with paid ACORN stooges and Union thugs. We could probably hire ACORN stooges for a right-wing demonstration and they wouldn't know the difference.

Action is the key, and civil disobedience is normally the tool of the left. If it works for them, it will work for us.

I don't pretend to be the one to organize this kind of action. So, who will? That's the real question.

Bob
Spurious Missives

Z said...

but, Bob, the message has to be clearer and louder to overtake the "mainstream media/TV/FILM/Teacher"constant ANTI CONSERVATIVE drumbeat; smaller government (which takes a LOT of explaining to our media and school-indoctrinated citizens), less taxes (when there are so many buying into the suggestion that 'if you make more, it's your duty to pay for your neighbor' instead of out of charity), less laws that suit one poor aggrieved person when the rest of us have to suffer because ONE is not happy ("tyranny of the minority", which I know we have now...etc etc.

TOO many Americans hear the message that Democrats= Correct, Republicans= EVIL. (not even INCorrect)

I just don't see that happening....I'd love to see the demographics of AGE in the Tea Parties.
I surmise that Soros underestimated his luck and started his ONE WORLD ORDER junk 10 years too early, thinking he'd not get the rise from the oldsters that he's got...

We need PAUL RYAN, ERIC CANTOR, RUBIO, CHRISTIE, the younger guys who can sell the truth, what's best for America...FREEDOM, INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS, and SMALLER GOVERNMENT.

BUt, now? I'm not so sure it can be done anymore. Are you?

Dave Miller said...

Pris said

"Under Bush, the purpose of the Patriot Act was limited to our efforts re terrorism, but it could be abused under our current President, or Dept. of Justice or future Presidents. "

Are you saying that there was no abuse of the Patriot Act under Bush? Or is abuse only possible under President Obama and subsequent administrations?

Thersites said...

I always laugh when Leftists complain about the Patriot Act. The "Patriot Act" would have been completely unnecessary had the Left simply accepted the President's war powers and not sought to "criminalize" acts of war...

Because the last thing this country needs are LAWS to deal with something that Gitmo is perfectly capable of dealing with. But no, the Left can't allow enemy combatants to be treated "any differently" than citizens. They just couldn't accept the fact that al Quaeda wasn't a party to the Geneva Conventions.

Of course, when THEIR presidents start wars, who needs Congress to declare it (ala Obama - Libya)? Leftist presidents get "cart blanche" to destroy whatever Constitutionally grnted rights and procedures actual citizens are entitled to expect.

Now go soak your head, Miller.

Thersites said...

Who needs war powers granted by Congress when you don't even need Congress to start a war anymore?

Thank you, Leftists. You've granted the president a permanent state of war with perpetual war powers to violate people's civil rights with.

Idiots.

Z said...

Dave, if you mean water boarding, you know very well that all people don't agree about that being terror.
How can you even ask about 'abuse' when some people think wire tapping suspected terrorists is abuse and others think it's prudent? You're usually not a bomb thrower.

You seem to have such a lowly view of Conservatives with deep and abiding opinions; we have every right to ours as others do to theirs........
I am the first person to compliment Obama when I THINK he's done something good for this country. But, my view of SOMETHING GOOD is like yours about ABUSE, isn't it.

I have defended him on the signing of 2008 in the Westminster Abbey guest book; I have defended him regarding his talking through the GOD SAVE THE QUEEN situation last week...we all make mistakes and I think the Band should have been given his toast so they knew when to play (what is normal protocol)....I also defend him re the purchase of BP petrol by his cars while in England.

Did you look into NURU, by the way? The group I told you about at your site?

Z said...

Thersites, excellent points...thanks for commenting...as usual.

Z said...

I was just emailing with JEN and we were discussing the FINE LINE, DELICATE BALANCE of cultural morality, too.
Suddenly, it's "Who says there's a right and wrong?" Suddenly, people put up with a lot of really horrible stuff disguised as 'enlightenment',as my buddy pointed out, and I don't see a way out of that, either..because, as Alinsky tended to do, he's damned anybody who has more traditional values as wrong and now everybody's afraid to speak up.

Jan said...

"I've never even believed the police had the right to drunk driving checkpoints. I consider those to be a presumption of guilt placed on citizens who the police have no probable cause to suspect of breaking the law. But they do it, don't they?"

Pris..you are so right! To me, it is almost like subtle intimidation...if it could even be called 'subtle.'

Once, during one of those checks, or it may have been a driver's license check, when the officer looked at my husband's license, he had us to pull out of the line, to the side of the road, where we sat, for what seemed forever.

He had asked my husband several questions, which we were completely puzzled by, because we knew that there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with his license, and he doesn't even drink, so we had no idea what was happening.

Finally, we found out that another person with the same name had a warrant out on him, and it was my husband who finally pointed out that the dates of birth were entirely different!

We were allowed to leave, but they were actually getting ready to arrest my husband!

And right here, in the town where we live, now, in the past two weeks, there have been two incidences of a person calling the police to report a crime being perpetrated against them, such as a break in, or stolen property, and they've been arrested, and now facing felony charges.

In both cases, the people were gun owners, purchased legally, but had the guns confiscated, and charged with owning firearms under disability....they had been to a mental health clinic at one time or another!

Never mind that it was no longer the case, just that they had been!

So now what? Do we have to either never purchase a weapon for protection, if we have ever been treated for depression, or never call the police if we are victims of crimes, in order not to be arrested ourselves?

Not only that, but at my husband's work, someone just got fired because of a text message sent to another employee when Bin Laden was killed...who was OFFENDED by what they called him!

Not that the store manager wanted to do it, but had no choice because of policies in place because of PC!

It is beyond crazy, and already to the point where one is almost afraid to say anything for fear of being reported for offending someone.

And Ducky...sorry, but you don't even have a clue, or you wouldn't say the asinine things that you say.

Pris, you said that there is an ever growing encroachment, and you're right.

It's like a snare, being drawn ever tighter, day by day...and the sad thing is, that too many are still unaware.

shoprat said...

We do have to accept a delicate balance but we have a president who trusts criminals and does not trust patriotic citizens.

Jan said...

Sorry, that my comment was so long...but thanks for giving us a chance to share our concerns about something so important to the future of our country.

Z said...

Jan, you weren't too long...not at all. Keep talking!!
It needs to be heard. SOmetimes, when I hear these things, I think "what are the police thinking?" I mean, I guess they're concerned they'll lose their jobs, but in another time in America, people would have STOOD UP and said 'WHAT IS THIS YOU'RE ASKING ME TO DO?'
Don't they know it could happen to them, or are we unaware of the good-old-boy club they probably have?

Shoprat...you said it. There IS no balance right now, it seems.

Speedy G said...

I was just emailing with JEN and we were discussing the FINE LINE, DELICATE BALANCE of cultural morality, too.

Not any more. The Western Canon has been banished from the university. The FINE LINE, DELICATE BALANCE has been replaced with an empty void between an anvil and an approaching hammer.

Elmers Brother said...

Anyone heard about the Iraq veteran gunned down mistakenly by Pima County Sheriffs in Tucson.

They raided the wrong house apparently and he ended up with about 60+ bullet holes.

Speedy G said...

39-42 Cyrnus, this city is in travail, and I fear she may give birth to a corrector of our evil pride; for though these her citizens are still discreet, their guides are heading for much mischief.

43-52 Never yet, Cyrnus, have good men ruined a city; but when it pleases the bad to do the works of pride and corrupt the common folk and give judgment for the unrighteous for the sake of private gain and power, then expect not that city to be long quiet, for all she be now in great tranquillity, ay, then when these things become dear to the bad —to wit, gains that bring with them public ill. For of such come discords and internecine slaughter, and of such come tyrants; which things I pray may never please this city.

53-60 Cyrnus, this city is a city still, but lo! her people are other men, who of old knew neither judgments nor laws, but wore goatskins to pieces about their sides, and had their pasture like deer without this city; and now they be good men, O son of Polypaus, and they that were high be now of low estate. Who can bear to behold such things? Yet they deceive one another even while they smile at one another, knowing the marks neither of the bad nor of the good.


-Theognis of Megara

Z said...

Speedy, you're probably right...the days of America's great acceptance of differing viewpoints and respecting the faith of others are over.
Unless you're a leftwinger or a nonChristian.

Z said...

Elbro, THAT's the story? I came in to the end of a story on TV news and didn't hear the start of what happened but did hear something about SEVENTY shots...and it's a mistake?
How horrid....a terrible mistake.

Pris said...

Ducky, what's important is finding the person who fits the description of those who are a threat, not 5 year olds who are scared out of their wits, by a stranger, feeling under the child's skirt.

Are you aware that Napolitano went along with the complaint by muslims that their women aren't to be touched or scanned?

So why bother with scanning or feeling up anyone? I read this examination has been used at the entrance to some school proms. Is that ok with you?

It's a slippery slope Ducky, like so many things are. There has to be a limit to invasion of our privacy, and inhibiting our ability to move about freely.

Btw, I believe I said, "will the police or govt. officials be able to come into our homes to check our light bulbs?" Did you even read what I said?

Pris said...

"It's like a snare, being drawn ever tighter, day by day...and the sad thing is, that too many are still unaware."

Thanks Jan, and you're right. It is a snare, a gradual takeover of our lives, one pronouncement at a time.

Most will hope it will end, but as we've already learned, that is not to be so. It seems as though power knows no bounds, and until people believe there's nothing left to lose, they'll go along to get along.

Better we fight it before desperation takes over, while we have our wits about us, and can make a difference.

christian soldier said...

does Pris have a site?
pressed Pris (blue litters) here-got NADA...
Carol-CS

Z said...

No, Carol, she doesn't.

WomanHonorThyself said...

we dont seem to have much power Z..which is what makes all this so frighening hun.............

Z said...

Angel, THAT is the crux of this thing.
feeling powerless isn't a good feeling for half a country; feeling like a gov't's out of control and taking more control than ever.
And where are the Republicans in congress? cowering because the media might malign them?
Alinsky at his best.

MK said...

"Will police or other government officials be able to come into our homes, "for the sake of the environment" and check our light bulbs? Our toilets?"

Oh no the liberal fascists of today are smarter than the ones who ran gulags and reeducation camps back in the day, they won't send in coppers to check your light bulbs, they'll just stop anyone selling the 'wrong' kind of light bulb or toilet.

beamish said...

You want freedom, join a biker gang.

Heh.