In business, there's a rather famous adage that goes something like
"Men who speak their minds in business are good businessmen......women who speak their minds in business are bitches." Is that true? Of course not. Is it fair? Of course not. Have women in business situations, when crossed or challenged, come across bitchier to me than men have from time to time?
OH, yes.......definitely.
Is this something that can negatively influence male and female voters in the next national election's outcome? If this is a prevailing attitude, and I think it is, should it be taken under consideration in the possible selection of female candidates for 2012?
geeeeeeee
Z
29 comments:
Oh, boy! What do you expect me to say?
I have never worked for a woman, but have interacted with many women managers in business. Some are really bitchy, and some are rational. You can say pretty much the same about men.
Having sold to women, I will make a statement about black women, and this is not a racist statement. Ask any black man. I would rather sell to a black woman than a white woman.
A black woman will not feel threatened by a small flirtation. If a black woman likes you, she will stick by you.
Secondly, a black woman will cut your throat if she doesn't like you. Black women seem to be more outwardly aggressive and don't hesitate to let you know where you stand.
All things being equal, I would rather not work for a woman because I wouldn't know what to expect all the time. Women can be sneaky.
Admit it, Z. Weren't we better off before we gave women the vote?
I approach work the same way I approach life... you're either on my team, or you have my ball on my field and you didn't train for this.
Women can be bitches, men can be assholes. I think it's the default setting of the sexes, actually.
Usually, I work for making my team look good. But not just "look" good, we ARE good. Being outperformed is unnacceptable.
I guess that makes me a bitch too.
Both of my direct bosses up the chain of command are female, and it doesn't bother me at all. Both have come to me for advice and ideas - and it's because I've gone to them directly with good advice and ideas on my own (so far). I'm getting more responsibility and power out of it.
I've worked for primadonna ("bitches") before, which are those I define as misdirected aggression. It didn't work out well - for them. I'd say 60% of the time anyone, male or female, at work has ever tried to end-run me or "put me in place" my place changed to their seat and their place changed to the unemployment line.
People on power trips are yummy.
Women who are hard chargers, demanding and tough are thought of as "ball-breakers" or bitches. So what? I know of a Fortune 500 aerospace company with senior management and corporate officers dominated by highly-educated, experienced, accomplished, successful women, most of whom are aerospace engineers. It is a profitable, well-run publicly-traded company. Those who don't like working for these women can go pound sand, for all I care.
I've worked for unscrupulous men who treated me like crap and I excelled at my job, in spite of them. I've also worked for charismatic, inspiring men who I would walk through fire for. I have worked for several women, as well, and can tell you I've had the exact same experiences.
In America, it just doesn't matter that much. What matters is the boss, man or woman, a good leader. If they are, then I can work for them. If they're not, I found a way to work around them.
That's life & business. I just thank God I live in a country where women are treated and considered human beings, endowed by God with the same unalienable rights as men. I would hate to be a women in the Middle East or many other nations.
As for negatively influencing the next election? Unfortunately, there is a bias against women in political leadership coming from both parties. I was appalled by the Republican Party leadership, all men, as Sarah Palin was & continues to be scurrilously attacked. I expected the men in our party to come to her defense. I admit to being very disappointed and disillusioned by the lack of outrage displayed Republican leadership. Sharron Angle was attacked in much the same way, so were several others. The saddest part of all? Some of the viciousness comes from fellow Republicans.
And the Democratic Party ROBBED Hillary Clinton of their party's nomination by cheating in state caucuses. Hillary won the most votes in the primaries. Obama had to cheat to gain the nomination. Corruption abounds in politics. Women don't fare any better on the liberal side.
Guess we just haven't turned that corner yet, politically. But we will some day, hopefully in my lifetime.
And before all you GeeezMen start squawking, look at the massive debt & deficits and crushingly brutal government intrusion into our daily lives, before you assert that men are stronger and better qualified to govern. Let's face it, you guys have totally screwed this nation up.
I think no one is more critical of a business woman or a female politician than another woman. I notice the GOP is playing games with Michelle Bachmann because of her "Tea Party" affiliation ... or is that just an excuse they are using to keep a woman in her place?
Life isn't always fair, but it is always real. Stuff happens, and like it or not, we have to learn how to deal with reality. Utopia only exists in the mind of leftists.
Oh, please.
Men who are great businessmen today are labelled *ss-holes.
Donald Trump was never considered to a "great businessman" so much as a "*ss-hole" who goes around firing all his employee's that fail to successfully out *ss-hole each other in emulation of their role model.
Just because b*tches don't treated any differently is actually a step IN the direction of equal treatment.
Carly Fioriana planning on running again? What a b----.
Women are "the weaker sex", or so I'm told.
Women are the ones who are supposed to be sweetness and light. Men are supposed to be strong, and when necessary, cruel.
My mother, who was unusually strong, once told me, "Women have no place in management. They're too emotional." And usually, she would be right.
However, there are some woman politicians that are quite capable of governing with stregth and still don't come off to me as "bitches". (Sorry for the quotation marks. I hate that word.)
Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann spring immediately to mind.
I might add that my mother would have made a great office manager, but she wasn't allowed to because back then women were thought to be incapable of management.
Bob,
I often say "Given a nice black person to talk to and a nice white person, I'll go with the nice black person"...I have to admit.
More open, more direct and honest...and sometimes quite funny, which I like...so I see your point.
I like knowing where I stand, BIG TIME.
I'd have a hard time deciding then admitting that women shouldn't vote but blogger Karen Hughes seems to feel that precise way.
Beamish...everybody's on a power trip. The women I know had to work harder for the power and did become bitchier, that's my truth.
Glad to hear you don't have that problem.
I once had a female secretary who scared me!! :-)
Men didn't always come forward as aggressively than the women I worked with but women made a bigger thing over pretty much NON things than the men did, which I hate.
Funny, i hadn't thought about this earlier but my blog arguments between women and men on my comments here can and have reflected some of this.
Fair Witness, I guess I mean less how these males and females react to us in personal situations and more how most of America reacts to a man standing at a podium discussing national defense or the economy and a woman, slightly higher voice, slightly more visibly defensive..
we could argue till the cows come home the exact opposite probably (I'm personally not so sure) but this is my truth.
I know MANY MANY MANY Republicans who'd love to never to hear Palin's name again let alone hear her talk to us....sad, but true...and I think the shriek and feminisms are part of it.
Sad because her patriotism, the faith she displayed and seemed to live at the beginning, and her opinions on many subjects I still admire.
My point is DEMEANOR DOES COUNT IN AN ELECTION. Sad, but true.
Remember how Nixon lost to Kennedy? I think a lot had to do with looks, articulateness, etc.
Mustang, there's been a hint of coming treatment to MEN who are largely supported by the Tea Parties, too. The GOP gets Karl Rove to gruffly insult, very uphandedly and in a highly superior manner, and I think to myself "Aha, the GOP doesn't like Rubio.." or whoever they're discussing.
There are WONDERFUL women business people and WONDERFUL men...and vice versa; I'm going more here for the generalizations and negatives and I think we can't risk the negatives for 2012, as much as I like of what Bachmann SAYS, for instance.
Ducky, Carly was never a bitch in her campaign. She's a good example of a woman who speaks deliberately, low-leveled in pitch, and articulately, thanks for the reminder. I hadn't heard she's running but if we don't get a Conservative in this state, we're going to be deader than dead.
Carl's Junior is now not building new ones in California because the business climate is already what Obama has planned for the whole country. I just read about Carl's this morning.
Mark, I was Palin's biggest fan....I just have to say that if I never hear her voice again, it'll be far far too soon. And the way she whined that "I don't know why the GOP is against me! I'm JUST A SOCCER MOM, I had no power before the November 2010 election!" is the day she finally lost me for good(after she'd made hundreds of thousands stumping for the Tea Party candidates.....)
And then when they were discussing who would play her in this upcoming film and she said "I don't much care, as long as they pay so I can fix my kids teeth!"
I think Geraldine Ferraro came off less shrill .......hillary shrieks even in the low decibel she speaks in ...remember? POWER TO THE PEOPLE!! OUCH!
I think Howard Dean is the only male jerk who ever screeched...remember?
I want a low pleasant-voiced energy, intense in a dignified quieter manner, knowledgeable, appropriately funny, not insulting of another candidate, not defensive...someone who knows who he is (if a woman fits those bills, BRAVO!)
And, of course, I'd even vote for Palin against Obama.
I would hate that.
" Let's face it, you guys have totally screwed this nation up."
I never wanted to get you that mad! I never said women don't / can't / will excel in the business world. There's plenty proof that they do...my wife is one of them.
Yet I wouldn't want her as sec of state or defense or the CIA!
I can't think of any woman that's got the gonads to press the button or pull the trigger and get into the dirty business of fighting terrorists or criminals coming across our borders.
Nappy has proven that. And Clinton has too with her obvious gasp at what she was witnessing. Look at that photo again.
the link below is Karen Howe's blog, where she gives reasons why women shouldn't vote let alone run for office :-)
http://www.easternright.com/blog/2011/5/3/repeal-the-19th-amendment.html
Impertinent: I know women so much smarter than some men I know that all of this is really over generalizing...and I know women who could push that button NO PROBLEM...as I said, Coulter is on record as saying "Gitmo guys better PRAY for waterboarding if I was there running how they're treated". And I think she's probably true to herself in that comment.
WOmen can be much more cut and dried than some men, as you know.
I remember being in meetings in corporate life around a huge table where a situation arose and the men just bandied it around until one of us women would say "Okay...so we'll do THIS and THAT." And that was it. It happened a LOT.
As some say (and there's a book on this) "Little boys are taught games that have steps like baseball has 1,2, 3'd base, football has TD's, etc....little girls are with baby dolls who cry so the logical thing is to FEED THEM..or pee so CHANGE THEM! Kind of funny way to look at it, but it is true, when you think about it.
Women are SOLVE IT IMMEDIATELY types...!!
It saddened me that HIllary thought she might have been construed as soft for having looked so shocked (that's no 'allergy cough suppression' hand on her mouth) so she had to 'go' to "Gee, I don't know what we were watching the second that picture was taken but I was probably suppressing my cough from allergies".
who cared? SHE SURE DID. Afraid of giving off a feminine, human reaction to the world? WHY?
It saddened me that Hillary thought she might have been construed as soft for having looked so shocked...
I know; it is laughable to think a woman who ordered the hit on Vince Foster could be shocked about anything.
SH...good point :-)
On the other hand, women, historically, are the most bloodthirsty of the sexes.
It has been said, If a man kills someone, he usually only shoots the gun once, twice at the most. When a woman kills, she empties the clip then reloads and empties that one.
And, what about Condy Rice? Would anyone here say she wouldn't be able to push the button?
Mark, I agree....women can be VERY VERY tough.
Is that a PRO or CON for women running? :-)
By the way, nobody hates to say I am more tired of Palin than I'm tired of ANYBODY more than me, believe me... I say it only because, added with the nasty, unceasing criticism of her and her family by the media (the other day it was that they think Bristol has had plastic surgery...who CARES other than the press who says they want them to disappear!??!)...if I have tired of her, MOST people have. Independents, particularly.
Is there a politician more b**chy than Barack Obama? We call it thinskinned, but what's the difference? I think he's an exception however. A "girly man", you might say.
True toughness is an inner strength, which demonstrates itself in an outward confidence and assuredness.
It does not require b**chyness, and most women who have these qualities, don't have to resort to trying to prove it through being b**chy.
To me, Margaret Thatcher is a great example of inner toughness, as was Golda Meir. They were highly respected because they made tough decisions and had the confidence and sense of purpose they needed to get the job done. Thatcher was called "the iron lady" not a b**ch.
I think women are more inclined to gossip than men. I also think there are women who compete with each other women on a basis other than getting the job done. It's more personal than professional.
Men, I think, compete differently, more openly, more like a sport. May the best man win, kind've of thing. But that requires honesty, integrity. The jerks might just go mano a mano, an open confrontation, but it's not whispering about what the other guy is wearing that day.
Let's face it, when women flooded the workplace, "sexual harassment laws" came into being, and the "hostile work environment", so much so, a man couldn't tell a woman she looked nice, or was accused of ogling, and on and on!
Well, if a woman is up to the job, show it by doing your job well, and for God's sake if a man tells you, you look nice, say thank you!
Don't expect special rules because you're there.
This is what creates resentment, and why being called a b**ch is the result.
Wow, you can see by the comments who is insecure and who's not. :-)
Thanks for mentioning Condi Rice, Mark. I think she'd be great.
If the best candidate is female, she has my vote. Period. It's the same issue with third-party candidates. It's not a wasted vote if he/she's the best one for the job.
Again, FW made excellent, points, in my opinion.
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And the Democratic Party ROBBED Hillary Clinton of their party's nomination by cheating in state caucuses. Hillary won the most votes in the primaries. Obama had to cheat to gain the nomination. Corruption abounds in politics. Women don't fare any better on the liberal side.
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No, they don't fare any better on the left.
It's really telling how sexism is a universal issue, isn't it?
What's most troubling to me is women who want to keep other women down. Case in point: Women who think women shouldn't VOTE. What the hell??
Unbelievable.
It is soooo difficult to contain my sarcasm right now....just sayin'!
Jen, I know nobody here wouldn't vote for ANY WOMAN we thought was best for the job..that is FOR SURE.
Jen, I can't imagine not voting, either.......she had some good points in many posts she links there, but the point is NOBODY wants to really take the vote for women AWAY! :-)
I'm not as big on Condi as some are, though I regard her as quite a dignified lady who's extremely intelligent....and a heck of a pianist, which wins this pianist over every time!
I don't see a Conservative woman who's not very smart but somewhat shrill (some more than others, Bachmann isn't too bad) Ferraro, for example, wasn't that.
Thatcher wasn't shrill......Meir wasn't shrill at all.....
I see trouble in how some of our Conservative women carry themselves, speak, say things even I get turned off by (like Palin saying she didn't understand why the GOP was mad at her when how could a soccer mom have contributed in any way to the Conservatives wins in Nov 2010?...ridiculously disingenuous)...
On the other hand, we have a media who so despises our bright Republican women (look at even how Ducky slams the gorgeous FOX women news people as if we have to punish women for being SMART and GORGEOUS because the Left has little of that?) that they're MUCH MUCH MUCH tougher on them in interviews. (or should I say "tough" since the left's ladies are pampered...)..
whatever. I'm trying to make a point and I'm even too tired to write more...and I have tons to do in my real life! See you all later!
Hey Z,
I think that if a candidate has wit, insight, leadership, and intellect, those things will outweigh the negative. Or to look at it another way, either the positives or the negatives WILL decide if a candidate is taken seriously.
Palin has never been a serious option for me, but neither was Perot back in the day. I don't know if I'm making my point effectively or not.
I understand where you're coming from.
Yes, Jen, I get your drift, I think....re Perot (being a man)...of course, that's true.
But, when I mention Thatcher or Golda Meir v Sarah Palin..
well...I think you get the picture.
It's not because she is a woman..
But, I don't want to say more because I know I have a lot of very big Palin fans here. I know, I was one.
xx
Beamish...everybody's on a power trip. The women I know had to work harder for the power and did become bitchier, that's my truth.
Glad to hear you don't have that problem.
Oh, I agree everybody's on a power trip. I just find it easy to discern the actually powerful from the Stuart Smalleys that glom onto personal affirmations from Nietzsche. The walkers from the talkers.
I don't like working in a cutthroat environment, but I've done it, and I've done well at it.
Some people say "back to the salt mines" when they go to work, I say "back to the shark pool."
People tend to fall into 3 categories at work:
1.) Slackers
2.) Doers
3.) Achievers
I tend to try to turn slackers into doers and doers into achievers. Most people you work with are doers, do what they gotta do to meet their duties and keep their nose clean, etc. I strive for "exceeds expectations" at work, because when the axe comes for the slackers, I want to be the one wielding it someday.
It doesn't always work out, but at least my resume looks good.
I'm proud that every job that I've ever been fired from has gone out of business within a year, and just about every job I've left voluntarily for something better would take me back, if I'd just compromise on wanting higher pay.
All I can be is myself. I'm flexible enough to accomodate most flak thrown my way, but I've never kissed an ass in my life.
I don't anyone in authority, as long as they wield it prudentially and justly.
All I'm saying is I'll sabatoge an asshole or a bitch, because no one out-assholes or (out-bitches) me.
It's nice to go to work with a smile and come home with one. It's been a while since I've had that sweet spot.
beamish, I'm so glad you're liking your new job. I hope it continues like this...that's just great.
Is there a politician more b**chy than Barack Obama? We call it thinskinned, but what's the difference? I think he's an exception however. A "girly man", you might say.
Women are beautiful creatures, everyone should own at least one.
::ducking and running::
Just kidding.
I wouldn't ascribe stereotypical female qualities to Barack Obama, but I wouldn't ascribe stereotypical male qualities to him either.
I guess I don't sexualize strength and weakness to where one sex is more than the other in those categories. Barack Obama is weak.
One of the worst employees the American people have ever hired.
My cousin is an Army officer and a medivac helicopter pilot in Afghanistan.
SHE has a nickname, "Bullet Magnet," because she'll take her chopper down into a hot landing zone to pick up the wounded rather than wait for the fighting to stop. She wanted to be an Apache combat pilot, but qualified on everything but her height. So she took medical helicopters instead. She is doing exactly what she wanted to do, fly helicopters, and more power to her for it.
I just don't buy the argument that women can't be tough, or that a tough woman is necessarily a bad thing.
I'm mixed opinion on Sarah Palin. When she plays the "you wouldn't treat me like this if I weren't female" card, I cringe inside.
I'd rather she just rebuff the gender questions altogether.
"She is doing exactly what she wanted to do, fly helicopters, and more power to her for it. .."
Yep...she must've watched a Meg Ryan movie...or two. Where the men were cowards ( Matt Damon & Lou Diamond Phillips, Denzel Washington ) and the hard core babe with an unlimited supply of M16 / M4 and a 1911 with a million clip magazine, saved Iraq.
Yup....Hollywood has the truth all right.
Ask Michelle Moore or Robert ( Rosie ) O'Donut.
Then again I know where the first woman Navy fighter pilot ( an AA must be in order to satisfy the PC hairy armpit crowd that sat around the lesbian bars moaning that "real" women could fly an F16 onto a carrier deck in the dead of night, on rolling seas without visual cues...totally washed out and damn near killed half of the deck crew and had to be landed by her fire control officer behind her....)
The Navy damn near died as a result of their failed experiment. Yea....I'd rather fly a helo anytime. Why? Cause you can stop the damn thing...hover at zero knots...or continue at 10 knots. Versus an F16 that moves forward no matter what...at 200+ knots. Which is my friends, serious shit. And it takes testosterone...which manufactures chest hair and Balls.
Then we have the hookdown "scandal". Those so called macho women....didn't dig a little hazing. They just didn't really want to be one of the "boys" after all.
They...wanted...to be "special....they wanted...errr....respect. They wanted the brass ring....but were pissed ( and sued and cried ) when they were treated ...equally.
I had to respond...sorry. Been there and never seen a woman in combat....don't want a woman in combat.
It's BS and never works....just as DADT is bullshit. You'll see.
Seems to me that PC rather than cohesiveness or saving American lives....trumps reality.
It's OK if Marines / Americans die...so long as we don't waterboard ! That's be worse than EIT...wouldn't it.?
Know this...your country and it's asswipe leaders would rather sacrifice your life...in order not to upset a muslim bastard terrorist criminal, murdered.
Beamish "I guess I don't sexualize strength and weakness to where one sex is more than the other in those categories. Barack Obama is weak."
Yup...
as far as the gender question; I tend to agree with you and am always sorry that gender is mentioned at all when it needn't be.
I will say I get sick of Pelosi, for example, kissing other senators on the dais, for example, when we would not have seen Kerry kiss Kennedy...but there's nobody who celebrates femininity/motherhood, more than I do, it's just that Pelosi can't argue FEMINISM and then win the Head of the SEnate position and hold her little arms up like POpeye with the gavel..remember?
I thought when I saw that "What's the deal? Here you are supposedly a strong woman who got a great position because of your brains and you have to BE A MAN with your arms up like a body builder because of it? Can't you accept the gavel as a dignified woman and don't kiss anybody and leave your icky little arms dangling at the sides of your little expensive suit?" :-)
ugh.
Major, i don't like women in combat, either. I don't know what you know, first hand, obviously, but I just don't like it. I don't like hearing about babies without their mothers (not that I like to hear about babies without dads who are deployed either, but..)
There IS a difference between women and men, dads and mothers, and the farther we get from that, the worst off we are in my humble opinion.
Do I think any woman has the right to be everything she wants to be? Yes, but then everything must be EXACTLY the same. EVERY test, EVERY physical test, EVERY EVERYTHING.
And I think women on submarines is ridiculous. Young couples are separated for months and the couple is foisted into close living quarters with those of the opposite sex and then everybody's upset that the sub becomes 'hooking up on the high (or low) seas'? ridiculous.
I'm not sure people who put opposite sexes in subs have seen how close quartered they are.....lonely, away from their loved ones; it's just awful.
maybe someone should just nominate Chaz Bono and be DONE with it :-)
sorry. I couldn't resist.
"She is doing exactly what she wanted to do, fly helicopters, and more power to her for it. .."
Yep...she must've watched a Meg Ryan movie...or two. Where the men were cowards ( Matt Damon & Lou Diamond Phillips, Denzel Washington ) and the hard core babe with an unlimited supply of M16 / M4 and a 1911 with a million clip magazine, saved Iraq.
Nah. She just flies bullet-riddled medivac helicopters into firefights to pull out the wounded quickly so the Taliban or whoever isn't taking them prisoner or worse. She is hardcore. Was enlisted before going officer because she wanted to fight after 9/11, used her GI Bill to go to college after her enlistment was up, so she could jump back in the fight as an officer and helo pilot.
time to change the COMMON LANGUAGE-
Carol-CS
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YEP!
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