This is a post written by blogger ecc1020 (otherwise known as Chakam) see below. I thought so much of it I asked if I could print it here and he said yes! I think it's a blessed reminder and I hope you find it that, too. Z.
A departure from the norm: Christianity will fall in American society
(Z: Please don't read this unless you have time to read till the end, it's that important!)
Posted on November 6, 2011 by Chakam
This post will be a brief departure from the normal stuff I speak about, but it is one I have wanted to write for quite a while now. I will thank you for your kind attention.
I am a Christian. I am. I am walking covenantally with Christ Jesus of Nazareth. I am walking in the sonship He has placed upon my shoulders through His sacrifice on The Cross, and I fully consider God as my Father. I have refrained from waxing theological on this blog, save for the blatant reference to The Scriptures in using Ecclesiastes 10:2 as the inspiration for this blog. I am not seeking to ‘save your soul’ or ‘change the world for Jesus’ with this blog. Since we do not relate face-to-face, I have no desire nor stomach for ‘drive-by evangelism’. But I digress.
Listen, Christianity is going to fall in America. I did not say it would fail. I did not say Jesus would fail. I did not say that God would fail in His plan of Salvation through the New Covenant and His ultimate will for His Creation. No, no, no. God my Father is Sovereign, and His will is always done.
What I am saying is that here, in America, Christianity will be vilified, persecuted, hunted, and eventually almost wiped-out. It’s going to happen. Bet on it. It has already started, in case you haven’t been paying attention.
So many believers wish to couple politics and government with Jesus and His New Covenant, and it simply should not be so. Politics is temporal. Man’s governments are temporal. Jesus told us we would be hated because of Him. Yet time and again I see countless blog postings about how awful it is that Christians are being targeted, and how awful it is that God has been removed from our schools and so on and so on.
Why are Christians shocked about these things happening? Do they think that all we need is a fine, strong Christian President and Congress and all our problems will disappear? Did Jesus ever say He wanted to be President? He lived in an Israel under Roman oppression and brutality. Yet what did He say about this? He said, “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.” That was it. Why do so many believers today think that Jesus wants to take over America’s government and make it His? He already has a government. It’s called The Kingdom. His Kingdom, His government is not this side of Heaven. It is in our hearts and in our spirits, through our salvation and His indwelling. Jesus did not come to us according to His Father’s will to change our governments. He came to change the hearts of men.
We will be hunted down. We will be imprisoned, tortured, and killed. All references to the Judeo-Christian God we worship will be scrubbed from our courts, our schools, and our history books as a Nation. I can almost guarantee this. America will become a truly secular and satanic nation. It is inevitable.
Many believers will fall away from Christianity. And rightly so. Jesus will sweep His winnowing fork through the harvest, and the wheat shall be separated from the chaff. He is interested in those whom He has called, not those who have falsely attached themselves to His Name. Blood will flow. Families will be destroyed. Yet His people will be strong, and shall not bend under the weight of evil that is coming.
When I read bloggers who lament the approach and onslaught of secularism, Islam, atheism, etc, and the vilification of Jesus and His Salvation, I shake my head wearily. We need to grow up and realize that everything that is going to happen is all a part of our Father’s will. All of it.
Christianity is going to fall in America. It is. There shall be a remnant, though. My God always reserves for Himself a remnant, for His Word never returns void back to Him.
So what should we do, then, as believers? Should we invest our time in politics and trying to make sure the really real Christian makes it into office? Or perhaps we should seek to know our neighbors, love our enemies, and walk humbly with our God.
Pointing out evil is appropriate, and we should be the voice of Truth as we are enabled to be. But Jesus ain’t gonna be the President. So stop trying to make Him into it, and simply do what you can to present the Truth in word and in deed, making the most of every minute you have this side of Heaven. Our Father has everything under control. (end of article)
34 comments:
It sounds like you are describing the Second Coming.
Z - 'our Father has everything under control'
indeed he does
:-)
~~~~
Have a great Sunday, Z.
Wow! I wish more Christians would understand the points on religion and government you made.
We can defend our religion without ever bringing a bible into the political arena. Stand for the constitution and the first amendment, and you defend Christianity, albeit to compete equally with any and all other religions.
It sounds scary, but we are already on the path ecc describes. Abortion and gay marriage will do in the organized churches. They will be forced to either accept them or be punished by the state.
It is very close. Welcome to the New America.
http://afticker.blogspot.com/2011/01/welcome-to-new-america-part-iv.html
It sounds like a real apocalyptic writing.
My upbringing in the Southern Baptist tradition taught me what separation of church and state means, and it has nothing to do with a church taking over government. It has everything to do with governments keeping out of religion. Most liberals don't understand that, at all.
The author makes a point, there, that we have allowed many people to think that Christians want a theocracy. That idea could not be further from the truth. We just want the freedom to worship as we will.
This does not mean that we should not influence the populace in political issues. Indeed, it is our duty, as Christians and citizens, to make sure our opinions are known, and to get as many people to vote with us as possible.
I do not agree with the author that we will see a hunting down of Christians. Anything is possible, but I think this idea is improbable.
This author reminds me of my sainted mother. If she couldn't think of anything to worry about, she would invent something.
There's no reason not to invest our time in politics. But, do we want a theocracy? I don't. Nor do I couple politics with Jesus. He is above our earthly realm.
Do we want our freedom to worship God? Of course we do.
The govt. or earthly powers that be, can assault our freedoms, but it can't rob us of our souls and our faith. To that I believe we must remain true.
I don't believe it is God's will that we become a Satanic nation. This is one man's opinion, and he does not necessarily speak for God.
I know I don't, and I'd like to think I'm not so arrogant to assume that I can.
Render unto Caesar? He didn't leave a forwarding address. ;)
Brooke...not sure about that...I asked the author to join in the conversation; I hope he sees my email.
Sue, that's about all that keeps some of us going, considering the things going on today.
Silverfiddle: that's true about forcing churches to either accept or be punished; so it appears that THIS state of ours under Obama WILL be putting state INTO religion, no?
Ticker, thanks, VERY close. Too close for comfort.
Bob and Pris, we do see many attempts at getting the Christian faith this country was founded on and which kept it going so well so far being torn down as quickly as possible...but I find it hard to think of our being hunted down, too. Still, I didn't think a LOT of things would happen which are happening today.
I never saw Christians are forcing a theocracy on this country, either.
I left this thread and went to check emails and found
THIS VIDEO
How weird is that timing?:-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM5ILOsHLnw&feature=related
lots of interesting things......
one doesn't have to believe in Jesus, but if you don't, don't speak for Him when His WORD (and we only know that through Scripture) says so definitely different than what you want Him to say.
fascinating stuff.
Z - and I truly believe that it's going to get worse before it gets better.
Maybe there are two ways to look at the change.
1. It's an outcome of ant-foundationalism that has been strong in American thought since Emerson.
2. It is an outcome of American consumerism.
I wish it were number one but it isn't.
consumerism?
How do you figure?
I believe it is the new God. We become victims of comfort and completely out of touch with much of anything beyond our immediate wants.
Emphasis on wants not needs.
"I don't believe it is God's will that we become a Satanic nation. This is one man's opinion, and he does not necessarily speak for God. "
Pris,
Do not forget, God gave man freewill to choose. We only have to look at Adam to see the results of a wrong choice. So while it may not be God's will that we become a Satanic nation, God will allow man to make the choice. When the children of Israel sinned and turned away from God, he allowed it and he allowed them to be carried off into captivity, and struggle in bondage.
If God did not allow things to occur or allow man freewill then we would be nothing more than puppets on a string controlled by a "playful god". That was not his purpose in our creation. It was to walk in love and fellowship with Him but as we know, man makes the decision as to how he will carry out the plan of God.
Bob,
Do you believe the scriputures? You say there will be no time when Christians are hunted down, killed?
And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[a]these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences,[b] and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
I suggest you read the entire 24th chapter of Matthew for Christ warns of such things. I gave you the beginning verses and we are already seeing such things occur all over the world and in this country. The hunting down and killing has not occurred in this country YET but when we have been given warning of such actions even in Daniel,Chapter 11 (one example) then there is no doubt that it will occur.
But there is hope for the Scripture says that he that overcomes shall be given life.
Ducky, I believe that is true.
And that people would be better off if they put God on top of the least of needs and wants...and acted accordingly.
Ticker, that's true, we are promised troubles, big ones, in this life, especially for our faith. And it does feel like the more our country's tried to rid itself of Christianity, the more the troubles have started...not just us but Western Society in general.
As for your other comment; I'm in study of Judges right now and, as you know, there are many chapters where we read, over and over again, "and they did evil in the eyes of the Lord.."
BOy, if that isn't what's happening now, in almost every way, what is it? immorality, debauchery, greed, hate, etc etc.
You know, sometimes while I watch the Food Channel, as much as I LOVE to talk (and eat) food, I think "My GOD, iis food so plentiful here that we try to see who can eat the most at one sitting (to the point of disgusting displays)...when there are people who'd give up a lot for one bit of that huge pizza pie or whatever it is....is this a good message?" Are we this tied into the WANTS as Ducky mentioned above? Where we forget everyone else's needs?
Yes, there IS the point that it's OUR CHOICE, but the Christian choice surely can't say "I'm gonna build me the biggest, fattest, meatiest pizza around and see how many slices I can stuff into my body at one sitting......" without adding "...and send money to the hungry."
@Bob and Pris,
Hello. Chakam here, from Ecc102. I am the author of this posting that Z has so graciously re-posted for the purpose of conversation.
Both of you have missed the intent of this posting.
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@Bob, if being Christians means we have a duty to influence the public vote, why didn't Jesus engage in political debates and activism in His earthly ministry? Again, governments of men belong to men. They are temporal, coming and going. How many Kings did Israel have until my Father sent His Son to finally show Israel what a true King was? God my Father is not concerned with Democrat/Republican/etc. Jesus' government is Kingdom. Big difference. We will be hunted down. Of course you can believe otherwise. But I simply need to point to the everyday air of hatred being fomented towards us because of Jesus, and that should more than suffice to cement my prediction.
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@Pris, how do you know if I do or do not speak for my Father? The Scriptures tell us that we are all as oracles of His. If this is construed by you as me being arrogant, I will gladly present myself to my Father for His correction. For surely I neither live nor speak to please men, but to please my Father. if, as a son, I am out-of-line, I know He will chastise me as a true Father would.
I did not say we would become a Satanic nation, but a satanic nation. Big difference.
------------------
Z, thank you for re-posting this blog article of mine. I honestly believe when The Bride returns to being Kingdom-focused, and stop seeking to politicize Jesus, the floodgates will open and the enemy of our souls will roar. As long as we continue to muddy the issue with our politics and other such nonsense, robbing God my Father of His Sovereignty, the enemy needs to do noting but watch with mild amusement.
Again, it is not government that my Father is concerned with. It is the hearts of men and women. His is the Spirit of adoption, not the spirit of politics.
Ticker said, "The hunting down and killing has not occurred in this country YET". That's what I said.
Now, along those lines, all my life, I have heard radio preachers making money by scaring people into thinking that the second coming would be tomorrow and all sorts of trials and tribulations were waiting for the unfaithful. Their message was to support their ministry with donations. I would not admit it when I was younger, but now I think that quite a lot of ministers on the air were downright crooked.
I don't know what the line is between religion and superstition, but a lot of superstitious people have been gulled into sending millions of dollars to those charlatans that could have been used to save lives and help save souls.
Jesus plainly said that no man knows the time of the second coming, and yet we find dozens of ministers, and entire churches seemingly dedicated to figuring it out. Is this not some form of blasphemy?
I admit I am not the Biblical scholar, but, I do know that Christ's message was to be ready for all these trials coming our way, and to lead our brothers and sisters to Christ.
Do I believe what Jesus said? Yes. Do I believe it all will happen? Yes. Will it happen it my lifetime? Maybe. Can I do something about it? No.
We should work at things we can accomplish. If it is not enough to keep the bad times away, then it just isn't.
Thanks for the suggestion to re-read Matthew chap 24. I will, and probably tonight.
ecc201 said "why didn't Jesus engage in political debates and activism in His earthly ministry?"
Thanks for you article which has inspired debate. I think that's healthy and we all learn from the process.
Jesus was not sent to be a politician, but to be the Savior of the world. He leaves politics up to us, and this is made clear in his statement, "give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's". The divide between the Church and state are clear, and part of what is owed to the state is our taxes, our fealty, and our service.
Politics is the art of persuasion, and we are all political animals. As Christians, I believe we have a political duty to the government to participate in its decisions, especially those that affect our religious lives. Think, abortion, gambling, crime, etc.
I don't think my position as a Christian trying to influence people is out of line, nor do I think it is something Christ would oppose. Indeed, I am not putting words in Jesus' mouth.
Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's...
We can't become religious hermits, and pretend the world doesn't exist beyond the Scriptures.
@Bob,
You said:
"The divide between the Church and state are clear, and part of what is owed to the state is our taxes, our fealty, and our service."
I say: I owe no fealty to anyone or anything that cannot resurrect me.
You said:
"Politics is the art of persuasion, and we are all political animals. As Christians, I believe we have a political duty to the government to participate in its decisions, especially those that affect our religious lives. Think, abortion, gambling, crime, etc."
I say: Sinful lifestyle choices do not affect me. My "religious life" is a covenant, not one based upon the actions of The World around me.
You said:
"We can't become religious hermits, and pretend the world doesn't exist beyond the Scriptures."
I say: Bob, The World exists because of The Scriptures. Removing myself from the foolish debate of being political or not hardly constitutes me being a "hermit".
We will be imprisoned, tortured, and killed.
Not without a bloodletting of enormous proportions.
How or why would 80% of this country be willing to be tortured, killed or eliminated?
Bullshit. If the secular atheists want God out of America.....out of our lives....I can guarantee that they'll be the first to go. With my blessings, of course.
No way will people stand by and watch helplessly while their churches are closed, shuttered or burned down.
There will be a war. There will be a revolution.
If they think I'l stand idly by and watch the destruction of a civil society...they're very mistaken.
But ecc...as you know,your blog has plenty of politics in it and you comment on politics at our blogs, so while politics isn't salvation and nothing's more important than that, you (and all of us) are interested in our country and I believe we agreed that Christians should be good stewards, right? That we should witness and try to model, and stand against really ungodly things like the immorality of today, abortion, greed, hate, etc...?
@Z,
Let me pose a question and present a scenario that will illustrate my stance on the things you mentioned.
Does society have ills and immorality? Sure. Of course it does. We agree on this.
Yet, I must ask, can we legislate morality? For the purpose of seeking to elect moral characters has one purpose: to legislate morality, and it is my opinion the law is designed not to guide morality, but to punish immorality. Herman Cain came under much fire from the pro-Life movement simply because he took the stance that says, 'I hate abortion, but I cannot force anyone to NOT get one. It is their choice, but that choice has consequences.' It is there that you will find me on many issues.
Our God laid out the 10 Commandments for Israel to follow, and these were moral laws, to be sure. 'Don't murder, don't steal, don't lie, don't commit adultery, etc.' Yet to this day, people violate these laws and still commit atrocities in the name of selfishness and sinful pursuits. In other words, people have it in them to rebel against God Himself.
So, knowing this, how can we expect to find success in legislating morality using the laws of the land, when God's Laws are cast to the side as easily as one dismisses a barking dog?
I do comment on POLITICS. This is true. I comment on the machinations of men, the plotting of men, the constant tug-of-war between the GOP and the Socialists to rule this Nation. But I have no stomach for politics. Politics is human theater, nothing more.
Governance...ah, well now, that is a different thing altogether. Governance is not politics. Governance is to be found in the spirits of men, according to the law of the land, that being the US Constitution. I comment on the disparity there. I do not believe that more than a handful of elected officials even understand the US Constitution. Politics is our enemy. For too long have we suffered under its yoke of bondage and slavery.
When I say that Christianity will fall, I mean that no matter if we elect the "greatest Christian evangelical God-honoring Jesus-loving" person ever, that it will matter. What has been written in The Scriptures shall come to completion. No matter who resides in The White House and in the halls of our Congress.
My contention is against that group of believers who cling to the futile belief that all we need is Jesus in the White House and everything will be peaches and cream. Nothing could be further from the truth, in my opinion. For Jesus to return, (and His return should be our heart's desire), the world must get worse. And it will, I guarantee it. Brother will rise against brother, Christians will be forced into survival mode like we haven't seen on American soil, and all references of God our Father will be removed from public forum. Some believers will attach themselves to the satanic leftists, claiming that freedom from religion is proper. Others will stand firm and not relent int heir beliefs that Jesus is LORD and that God is not mocked. Still others will disappear into obscurity due to their lukewarm hearts.
continued....
continued from above...
Jesus knows who are His and who are not. I am looking at The Big Picture. IN the meantime, I endeavor to simply call attention to the goings-on of the secular and satanic leftists, their media dogs, and those in "power" who lord it over us as despots. But I have no illusions about my efforts. I know that my "political rantings" hold no substance other than to point out the evils of the leftists and secularists who hate us because of Jesus.
No, my heart is in the changing of the hearts of men by way of introducing them to my Jesus, through word and through deed. Change the man's heart, and you change the man totally. (or woman, of course)
Z, I am engaging in "political and governance issues" simply to be a voice of reason. I am not looking at putting Jesus in the White House or having a "Christian Nation". I don't think my Father cares about that, either.
Thanks for patiently reading this lengthy diatribe! :)
ecc, I agree with most of what you say and thank you for the explanation of your covering politics while saying what you do.
I don't know a Christian who doesn't think our country would be far better if it were more CHristian again, but I also know very few Christians (if any) who'd think Jesus could even be elected let alone serve as President!
I know Huckabee was toast when I saw a video of his saying we need to turn America back to Jesus.
Yes, what is written will come to pass; and the signs are SO there now it's hard to turn the train back.
thanks very much
actually, if as Scripture says, this is all GOd's will; we can't turn the train back
No Bob, this is what you said:
I do not agree with the author that we will see a hunting down of Christians. Anything is possible, but I think this idea is improbable.
The truth in what you said lies in your last line...but I think this idea is improbable.
IN MATTHEW 10 JESUS GIVE US MORE WARNING(THOSE WHO FOLLOW HIM)
Jesus also said there would be signs that would point to His return. The Scripture in Matthew is but one of those occasions where he gave us signs and we are to be aware of them and make ready. We do not wish to be as the foolish virgins in the parable told by Jesus and allow our lamps to run out of oil. We are to be wise and make sure we are ready for the(night) time.
16Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
21And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
BOB GIVE A LOT OF THOUGHT TO THESE VERSES BELOW:
34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Jude 1:18
They told you beforehand, In the last days (in the end time) there will be scoffers [who seek to gratify their own unholy desires], following after their own ungodly passions.
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2 Timothy 3:1-3
Amplified Bible (AMP)
2 Timothy 3
1BUT UNDERSTAND this, that in the last days will come (set in) perilous times of great stress and trouble [hard to deal with and hard to bear].
2For people will be lovers of self and [utterly] self-centered, lovers of money and aroused by an inordinate [greedy] desire for wealth, proud and arrogant and contemptuous boasters. They will be abusive (blasphemous, scoffing), disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy and profane.
3[They will be] without natural [human] affection (callous and inhuman), relentless (admitting of no truce or appeasement); [they will be] slanderers (false accusers, troublemakers), intemperate and loose in morals and conduct, uncontrolled and fierce, haters of good.
SO Now Bob if I sound like one of those seeking riches, then so be it but the Word is Truth and while we may NOT know the EXACT TIME of His RETURN we certainly should know and understand the signs.
I close with this:
Ezekiel 33:6
But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
Bob, I agree that we as Christians vote per what we're informed by over the years and, if Scripture and sermons and other things of faith inform us and form our character, we can't pull that voting curtain closed and kick Jesus out at the same time! No way.
Heck, we have liberal students turning voting age who pull all that the lib profs have emptied into their heads and voting accordingly.........
we, at least, deserve the same, right?
Z,
I dug this one up from 2009. I think you might enjoy it.
http://ecc102.wordpress.com/2011/11/14/what-is-this-almost-mystical-link-between-conservatives-and-us-constitution/
ecc, it's astonishingly well thought out and I agree with you on it all.
I may want to publish that here, too...I"m on a crusade to get people to LISTEN UP and PAY ATTENTION to things they've not heard in a while, including this wonderful post you let me use for my Faith Post......
I know you won't mind but I sent your piece on Cons and the Constitution to email friends and would love to publish it soon here at geeeZ!
Thanks for linking that to me...EXCELLENT.
Z,
You keep taking my stuff and I'm gonna have to charge you rental fees! LOL! Jokes, jokes!
I'm honored you would think so highly of my words. Honored and humbled, indeed.
Ticker: ecc postulated that the hunting down would happen in this country, and that is what I disagreed with. I stick with my opinion. It is obviously happening, now, in Islamic countries to some extent, and it is believable that it can happen in Europe, Africa, and Russia. I can't see it happening in the USA, and I will probably say that when then put a bullet in my head, and shovel lime over my body in the communal burial trench.
The signs in the Scriptures have been noted as being current for a long time, and I caution my Christian brothers and sisters against plotting the exact time and date of the second coming. Our job as Christians is to be ready, not to calculate the exact time which I think borders on blasphemy. To do so is obviously doubting the Word of God.
Thanks for your passion and knowledge of the Scriptures. I do respect your opinions.
Bob, I don't remember ecc mentioning when the Second Coming would happen.
I agree with you that we don't know that. We CAN'T know that, as scripture says.
Matter of fact, everybody worries on those dates the nuts pick and I figure those are the safest days ever :-)
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