Wednesday, July 21, 2010

No PRAYER in school?

After being interviewed by the school administration, the prospective teacher said: 'Let me see if I've got this right.
'You want me to go into that room with all those kids, correct their disruptive behavior, observe them for signs of abuse, monitor their dress habits, censor their T-shirt messages, and instill in them a love for learning.
'You want me to check their backpacks for weapons, wage war on drugs and sexually transmitted diseases, and raise their sense of self esteem and personal pride.
'You want me to teach them patriotism and good citizenship, sportsmanship and fair play, and how to register to vote, balance a checkbook, and apply for a job.
'You want me to check their heads for lice, recognize signs of antisocial behavior, and make sure that they all pass the final exams.
'You also want me to provide them with an equal education regardless of their handicaps, and communicate regularly with their parents in English, Spanish or any other language, by letter, telephone, newsletter, and report card.
'You want me to do all this with a piece of chalk, a blackboard, a bulletin board, a few books, a big smile, and a starting salary that qualifies me for food stamps.
'You want me to do all this and then you tell me. . . I CAN'T PRAY?

Obviously, that's meant to be humorous, to show a teacher's exasperation with the difficult job teaching is today and how it strikes a person odd that prayer's left out of schools when it's never been needed more........do you believe public schools would be better off for a moment of personal prayer (if a teacher could get kids all quiet enough for the same three minutes)? I'm not really one way or the other on this subject myself...it just seems odd that our schools have gone steadily downhill since we ruled prayer out. I found THIS INFORMATION which has some stats since 1963's removal of prayer in school. There are some sound pros/cons there to ponder.

I received the 'teacher's prayer' from a friend and wanted it on my blog.......just wanted to make sure you knew I didn't write that part. ( I wish I had)
z

20 comments:

Faith said...

The link is very informative. I didn't know all that about the history of the decision against prayer in the schools. I didn't know for instance that it was an official prayer that was struck down, not individual prayer.

I agree that the changes so often imputed to the removal of prayer can't be clearly shown to be causally derived from it, and that to reinstate it would cause bigger problems at this point.

The culture started unraveling in the sixties from many different starting points, eliminating prayer being only one starting point. Kicking out God was of course the main underlying cause of the whole deterioration, but that isn't the function of whether there is an official prayer in the schools or not.

The writer also makes it clear that individual prayer and prayer outside the classroom situation on school property are quite legal -- even if some schools aren't clear about this and it might take legal intervention to enforce it -- and people should be taking advantage of all permitted private prayer and religious observances.

Good to see this answer to the usual confusion about the idea of "separation of church and state" too:

Inplainsite.org Comment: I have been in this country for twelve years and have never ceased to be shocked and amazed at the number of Americans who still fall for the stale and completely asinine ‘Separation Of Church And State’ argument. It is even worse to come across so many that actually believe this phrase is part of the constitution. It Isn’t!

AND -- the whole thing is good support for the opinion that there shouldn't be public schools anyway.

Trestin said...

I once thought it strange that prayer is allowed and even encouraged in most government environments,but not in school. Then I understood what they were doing. They were indoctrinating the youth with Marxism, without alarming the adults.

Anonymous said...

I don't remember ever saying prayers in school. I went to school from the mid 40's through the fifties.

Of course there were no prohibitions against prayer, and we sang songs with religious content.

Needless to say at Christmas and Easter, recognition of those holidays were on full display.

I know President Reagan called for a few minutes of silence, thus allowing that time to be used for prayer, or thought, whatever a student chose to fill it with.

That seemed to me, to be a practical solution for what had become a contentious issue.

Even that was pretty much shot down from what I remember. Naturally, since it was Reagan who suggested this there was an outcry from his detractors. That was the eighties of course.

Pris

Mustang said...

Students today cannot do simple math; they cannot read; they cannot write a cogent paragraph. Do we really want public schools to teach them prayer, too?

If we make room for Christians to pray, then all other religions will demand equal time. I don't want to see Ducky falling down on his prayer rug in school, modeling the proper method of worshiping Joe Stalin.

Ducky's here said...

Come on z, "post hoc ergo propter hoc"?

You know better.

Ducky's here said...

Hey mustang, I went to public schools and I can handle partial differential equations.

How far did you get, big mouth?

Craig and Heather said...

Faith
AND -- the whole thing is good support for the opinion that there shouldn't be public schools anyway.

:)



I don't see how institution of a corporately recognized time of (personal) prayer in public schools is a practical option at this time.



Ducky,

I went to public schools and I can handle partial differential equations.

That's fairly impressive. I hated math and wish I was more adept in that area.

However,

..what is a man profited if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He shall reward each one according to his works.
Jesus Christ, Gospel of Matthew. 16:26-27



A lot of the stuff that is offered in the public school system is just cleverly orchestrated distraction from the reality we all must eventually face.

It's impossible to trade generalized knowledge, or good grades or good jobs or houses or cars or full bellies or even good deeds as a means to gain redemption from death.

As the public school system does not allow for the recognition of learning and knowledge as a means to honor our Creator, much of the academic pursuit in our country amounts to nothing more than chasing after the wind.


Take care,

Heather

Z said...

I don't know better, Ducky...that doesn't mean A doesn't affect B, as you well know.

I"m eager to hear others' opinions here, not mind. I'm not for school prayer, but I'm saddened that it absolutely does seem to foreshadow the drugs and sex and terrible discipline problems in so many of our schools....Because they don't pray? Probably not. Because they have nothing at home, no goodness and values which were provoked by faith in the home? probably.

cube said...

I remember doing the Pledge of Allegiance every morning at school. Apparently, they're not allowed to do that either.

There does seem to be an agenda at work here.

Bloviating Zeppelin said...

Prayer in school is just one portion of the crumbling of infrastructure. The parents of MY generation, not stepping on our necks, and in an attempt to give us what they did not have, unfortunately, helped to swing tolerance for most anything into a norm. Spock didn't help, with his book. Now, too many parents want to be their kids' friends instead OF their parents because -- after all -- parenting is HARD and it's TOUGH to say NO! to a kid.

Just last week I heard a young woman say: "Now I know why all those parents let their kids do anything. Saying 'yes' is a lot easier and keeps kids quieter."

Imagine that. Wussy parents.

BZ

Ducky's here said...

Heather, why should I regret having a good base in mathematics?
I assume your children are instructed in math.

My beef with mustang is that he consistently exaggerates. In fact the public schools often do an excellent job and they do it in an environment that is becoming increasingly anti public schools simply for doctrinaire reasons.

I also take exception because what the right is concerned with IS NOT the education of our citizens but rather the supremacy of the private sector which they take as a matter of dogmatic faith is superior.

Now, do you take the position of the early Abrahamic religions and follow very strict orthodox Judaism and Islam in believing that sacred texts are the ONLY topic to be taught?

Also, do you feel that forced prayer is pleasing? Not just from a civil liberties point of view (where it is a clear abomination) but pleasing to God?
Doesn't the deity want our willing obedience?


Here's ne for mustang. On standardized test, minorities do better on the more difficult, longer vocabulary items and less well on shorter words than their white counterparts. This is thought to be because in the black vernacular the shorter words take on many more meanings.
Now, are the lower sores indicative of less learning in this case? Would you consider these tests biased? Would you ignore it all and just continue with unproductive rants?

Faith said...

I also take exception because what the right is concerned with IS NOT the education of our citizens but rather the supremacy of the private sector which they take as a matter of dogmatic faith is superior.

I think this misrepresents the position of the right, which is that the public schools influence our children in moral and philosophical directions we don't approve of. This isn't a matter of dogmatic faith at all, it's a practical matter and a matter of personal rights.

As for educating all citizens, it isn't a good thing that everybody else's children are being subjected to those same moral and philosophical influences we object to either, but in trying to take on that problem we'd be up against something much bigger than personal rights. Best to start where we have a chance of making an impact.

Anonymous said...

"I remember doing the Pledge of Allegiance every morning at school. Apparently, they're not allowed to do that either."

Cube, yes. When I attended HS, we'd be milling around before classes began for the day, and the National Anthem, would play over the PA system loudspeakers, we'd all stop in our tracks, face the direction where the flag flew, hand over hearts, and say the pledge when the music stopped.

Pris

Craig and Heather said...

Ducky

Heather, why should I regret having a good base in mathematics?
I assume your children are instructed in math.


I was not suggesting that you should feel guilty about your educational acquirement, Ducky. Be assured that my appreciation of your ability is genuine.

I am fully aware that many children still can, and do, achieve good grounding in academic matters while in a public school system. It would be foolish to argue otherwise.



My point is that learning has a purpose that goes beyond the temporal. You know that's true.

If a person spends his entire life focused on what he can learn and accomplish *here*, he will miss gaining an eternal perspective and meet his Maker unprepared.

The supposedly non-religious public educational system emphasizes academics to the point that matters of the soul are considered to be non-existent.
But we don't really learn in a vacuum and the soul does not remain in a "static" condition. Our educational experiences either move us closer to God or farther away.



Now, do you take the position of the early Abrahamic religions and follow very strict orthodox Judaism and Islam in believing that sacred texts are the ONLY topic to be taught?

I expect you already can guess my answer.

In case you are unsure:

Of course I don't believe that the only topic that should be taught is religious text. We all need to learn to function in society. But this life is but a breath when compared to eternity. Ultimately, knowing Christ is what matters.



Also, do you feel that forced prayer is pleasing? Not just from a civil liberties point of view (where it is a clear abomination) but pleasing to God?
Doesn't the deity want our willing obedience?


Neither forced prayer/obedience nor mindless, ritualistic repetition are what God wants from us, Ducky. He is a Person and He wants an interactive relationship.

How'd you feel if you found out someone was forcing me to be nice to you and everything I've said to you was really based on a lie?

You wouldn't think much of me, I'm sure.


Heather

Mustang said...

On standardized test, minorities do better on the more difficult, longer vocabulary items and less well on shorter words than their white counterparts. This is thought to be because in the black vernacular the shorter words take on many more meanings.

What tests are you referring to —National, State, oral, problem solving —or if strictly vocabulary, are you referencing TOLD, EVT, or PPVT? If NAEP, what grade levels? Who did the psychometrics? If you expect credibility Bozo, don’t blather. Give us your citations and identify the Psychometrician.

Ducky's here said...

From studies of the Massachusetts MCAS, "Bell Curve". Disappointed?

Mustang said...

No, not really. I worked on MCAS for several years. The entire process is a bell curve; you are ignorant, but in this case, it isn’t your fault. If the people of MA are satisfied with MCAS, then we’ve identified the real problem with our public education system. The entire process is a fraud; all of it. MCAS results are artificial and concocted, and this is also true for Connecticut, Texas, Mississippi, Virginia, California, and Florida. Nice try, though.

Elmers Brother said...

Now, do you take the position of the early Abrahamic religions and follow very strict orthodox Judaism and Islam in believing that sacred texts are the ONLY topic to be taught?

though antecdotal...in over 20 years of homeschooling, homseschooling conferences, co-ops...etc etc

I've never met anyone that teaches that way

now does it mean it doesnt' happen...I couldn't tell you... but I would suggest to you that you visit a site HSLDA

you may learn something about homeschooling...research and study findings and may gain insight as to some of the reasons, curriculum used etc

now do I expect to agree with it? certainly not...but for clarity and understandings sake I make the invitation

Elmers Brother said...

I also take exception because what the right is concerned with IS NOT the education of our citizens but rather the supremacy of the private sector which they take as a matter of dogmatic faith is superior

you'd also be mistaken. if you visit that website you'll see that homeschoolers are indeed concerned about education...so much so in fact that homeschoolers outscore their public school peers in every category (reading, writing and arithmetic)

Elmers Brother said...

I also take exception because what the right is concerned with IS NOT the education of our citizens but rather the supremacy of the private sector which they take as a matter of dogmatic faith is superior

our faith is important, true that duhkkky but it's also the lowered expectations and assembly line mentality