Abraham Lincoln's handwriting....The beginning of his second Inaugural Speech, November 8, 1864. The first paragraph fascinated me:
"It has long been a grave question whether any government not too strong for the liberties of its people can be strong enough to maintain its own existence in great emergencies."
How do you interpret that and apply it to today?
z
39 comments:
We'll never know Z. Our government will never again be "not" strong enough. It is WAY the other way now. Sadly, I don't think there is any chance for returning to the "good old days".
Today's "emergency" is a government invention. It came from government FORCE being applied to the economic market. I'm not sure Lincoln would have imagined a CRA, Fanny or Freddy.
Morgan
I wonder if Obama is going to blow out the candles?
More government uber alles!
Freedom was not "given" to us as a nation. We took it from a government that seemed all powerful and made this nation. Now our government has become all powerful and our freedoms are eroding.
Unless the tree of liberty is renewed once again through the blood of patriots and tyrants, our greatest days are indeed behind us.
As to whether we, as a people, have the intestinal fortitude to do that which is necessary, I'll leave to the rest of you to decide.
"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."?
Well, if it is, the Bush years made us a lot more free.
Seems like a lot is happening fast. A year ago, I'd never have believed everything that has happened since.
sigh this just reminds us Z how far off the road O and the dhiimicrats have taken us.........................
Ah, cheer up Hermit, it's going to get better.
Notice the other day that the Taliban managed an effective demonstration that Kabul isn't secure? Now they have a stronghold in Pakistan that can't be taken out by air and an invasion of Pakistan would be insanity so what are we ever going to do to "win".
Big mess and there is no reasonable "winning" scenario unless we can get co-operation from Pakistan.
At least he knows better than that fool Chucklenuts to go around insulting every Muslim nation on the globe so there may be progress.
How'd you like that Georgia cracker knowingly shipping the tainted peanut butter. Well, he was only avoiding socialist government restrictions to his freedom to poison you, I suppose.
FDA just let him ship and ignored the whole thing till people started dropping.
Ah, fool militarism and Libertarianism. Freedom killers if there ever was.
NEW YORK GUY....not sure what you mean...
Average,...I don't see any return, either. And we had some great times in this country. The Left hates that. Did you know most people feared FDR back then? That he'd start Fascism with his big government? History profs and the media just rewrote and mischaracterized and the guy's a saint for getting Americans dependent on gov't...who knew?
FJ...subtle...and true.
Greywolfe: I never thought I'd say this, but I believe you're on to something...horrific to consider but what else CAN bring us back? Why do you think THE ONE wants a new civilian corps? Meanwhile, he'll arm them and disarm YOU.Clever, like the stimulus package...shoved right by.
Ducky, The Bush years sure did. 8 years of no attacks. That's way more freedom than I feel NOW, BELIEVE me!! Especially with that new program of trucks into Canada!! They just show a card and IN they come. I'll bet YOU're positive they'd never bring in any muslims with dirty bombs, aren't you!! GOOD for you! I admire your faith..naive, but hopeful.
Hermit, friends of mine last night, and I, were talking about not only how horrid this all is but the SPEED. It's been set for a while, looks like to me. They were planning on Emanuel, etc., before he got elected. It's all a BIG PLAN with Soros money and some lefty dopes don't see it or don't CARE.
DUCKY, by the way... one Georgia company made a huge mistake and we need to kick out the free market? Socialism didn't save us? IS that what you're saying? The FDA's kept you alive for HOW many years?
What's your solution for Pakistan, since their rebels and even their gov't are a bunch of hot headed muslims who want you dead? Tea time? Oh, I KNOW, only a FEW do, sort of like that peanut butter factory, but YOU KNOW the REST of the Pakistanis are trustworthy!...Funny, you condemn the FDA for not being socialist enough...ALL of them are BAD because one lousy group did something wrong. Let the Pakis do something and they're FINE, it's just one small group. I GET IT> But the WHOLE FDA IS EVIL now, right?
DUCKY, by the way... one Georgia company made a huge mistake
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Made a mistake? KNOWINGLY shipped food he knew was poisoned while the regulators turned their backs is a MISTAKE?
I'd like to know when the last time was we had so many issues in the food supply as we did under the lax regulation of the previous administration.
Ducky, The Bush years sure did. 8 years of no attacks.
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Except 9/11 of course.
What's your solution for Pakistan, since their rebels and even their gov't are a bunch of hot headed muslims who want you dead?
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I don't think there is a short term solution.
Are military arsenal is useless in Afganistan and only a deranged idiot would try to invade Pakistan and roust the rebels.
I think he has taken one positive step in addressing Muslims via Gulf TV and not talking down to them like the last president and his moronic sidekick Condo Rice.
If he's smart he will tell the far right to shut up and initiate dialogue with the people who have suffered most from radical Islamic attacks, moderate Muslims.
Ya, a huge mistake. They were even found to have known! HUGE mistake.
What would you call it.."Catastrophe" I would.
The point remains.
Bush ..ya, 9/11 was planned in a few months...LOL
And, of course, HE KNEW, right? He should have forced ALL AIRPLANES down FOREVER with that intel that we'd be hit someday into big bulidings by airplanes..ya.
No, if he were smart, he'd FINALLY get the left to understand the thousands of Muslims who want you dead don't give a damn HOW much we talk..it's only biding their time for their caliphate instructions.
And of course z, there was also Timothy McVeigh during the Clinton years.
Interesting that the Libertarian loons caused much more carnage and destruction than the foreign threat which didn't appear again in the nation until Bush.
Wow Ducky, amazing how you can ignore thousands of Terrorist incidents but bring up the one in a million that involved a white US citizen.
Now go back to the fact that your kind would put him back on the streets in 5 years on parole while we would see him toasted in the chair.
and the omniscient BO just let the bomber of the USS Cole go.
talk about sucking up
Well misfit, I'm thinking of incidents on American soil.
You know, like when the crackers bombed up Birmingham in the 60's.
Hmmm Elmo, here's part of the article from The Guardian. Now, I know it's a British paper but if we want hard news we have to depend on the foreign press, just the nature of the beast.
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A Pentagon spokesman said Crawford dismissed the charges against al-Nashiri without prejudice, meaning new charges can be brought later. He will remain in prison.
Now I know it's easy for the right to confuse "released" with "will remain in prison" so I thought I'd help you out.
Let me raise some thoughts in order to bring the discussion back to Lincoln and his theory of a government whose power is not so large that it restricts the freedom of the people, but large enough to be able to act in case of emergency.
That raises the question: What do we want our government to do? My view is (simplified): (1) Ensure the security of the country and its people. (2) Ensure infrastructure. (3) Ensure that the real poor (NOT the lazy) people are being helped. Period. And this is in the order of priority. That means, 80% of our governments, Federal and local, is dispensable, and actually counter productive.
Having said that, we have to look at the subject "Freedom" and what it means. Security being the highest priority subject, it ensures our freedom to live, to work, and to speak. Therefore, we need to make sure that we are not terrorized by individuals or groups. And if we want to ensure that, we have to find these terrorists. Since they don't respond when we call for them, that has to be done actively, i.e. for instance by telephone tapping. That is the price we have to pay to ensure our freedom as a people.
Now, let's look at the socialism/communism which is at a rapid rise under BHO (as we had predicted). I have come to the conclusion that socialism is actually the MODERN FORM OF SLAVERY, and, therefore, the opposite of freedom. Think about it: What socialism means is that you give up your individual freedom and submit to the power of the state. Instead of using your God given abilities and courage, you let others make all decisions for you - that is submission and giving up freedom. It is also against nature: It supposes that all people have the same characteristics, which is not true as everybody can easily understand. That is why neither socialism, nor communism, have worked anywhere - a proven record.
This is what Lincoln meant. A government which is too strong in areas which are better solved by individuals is actually counter productive to the freedom of the people.
Mr.Z
Our Constitution has set up the right checks and balances that we need for the government to be 'not too strong' yet strong enough for the emergencies. That's what keeps us going and always will.
Sue, your point on checks and balances in the constitution is only half right. Yes, they were set up to control any one part of government taking total control, however, each and every time we turn around Congress is reaching for Executive power. And let's face it the term "legislating from the bench" exists for a reason. The problem is that the government as a whole has grabbed more power than it was ever intended to have and we sheep, excuse me, I meant voters, have let them do it. Either from fear or apathy I don't know, but we did.
Z, I got a question for you? Have you ever seen Ducky put a thoughtful comment on any blog? I've officially banned him from mine because he throws is crap-grenades and then runs along when he get's pounded. Just curious if you've seen anything socially redeeming in him that I've missed. You've been at this longer than me.
I believe he was discussing temperance in government ... to govern well, and popular determination that our nation succeed in the face of great adversity.
Neither of these exist today.
Sue, you think we have 'checks and balances' in this new government? I feel very worried that we have none anymore...Mr. Obama reminds us HE WON and that's that. I believe I'd feel that way with an all Conservative government, as well. But, not quite as worried; I don't believe all Conservative gov't would grow government into quite such a large socialist state.
Sue, I don't hate the man, I just hate where he's taking our country and that the majority of Americans are polled not wanting this package and still we're getting it....and it's so frightening.
And that this kind of 'repair' has never worked. I pray it does this time..for our sake, don't you!?
Greywolfe, I know what you mean, but I don't want a conservative echo chamber here...I don't agree with Ducky on almost anything, but I'm glad he's here. The only thing I can't STAND, and I've deleted 2 of his comments and might one of these today, too, is the insults which are so belittling "knuckle draggers", etc.. And the gay bashing...that bugs me.
Ducky, Elbro's on it...USS COLE, our embassies in Africa, etc etc etc....why don't you see that?
Instead, you find one maniacal white guy (whom Gore Vidal SWEARS was hanging with Arabs only before the OK bombings...but, I"M SURE those Arabs were REALLY sweethearts, right, Duckster?)and WHITE PEOPLE ARE THE CULPRITS!
geeeeZ
But Greywolfe, Oklahoma makes itself such an easy target ...
"Sen. Tom Coburn (R-OK) offered a successful amendment to the stimulus bill preventing any of its dollars from going to zero-gravity chairs, saunas, and rotating pastel lights."
I mean how can you lay off something like that?
Ducky, that's a typical Republican asking NOT for appropriation...get it?
Ducky, Elbro's on it...USS COLE, our embassies in Africa, etc etc etc....why don't you see that?
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Couple things, z. How would Clinton have been able to stop a fertilizer bomb in an African republic? We didn't have that kind of intell. And remember, many, many more Africans died than Americans.
The Cole? It's protocol not to start a military initiative at the very end of your term. It's up to the incoming President and as we know, George chose to do not much of anything about it.
So it's a little quick to blame Clinton. Fact is that the Big One happened while Condo Rice, every right wingers favorite, was fast asleep.
Tell us how they were 'fast asleep', Ducky. I like to hear liberals lie.As I've said to you probably 10 times, if YOU got "Intel" saying "Mr. President...Arabs are desirous of flying planes into buildings" (which is all they got, and that's a FACT), would you have just grounded every plane for..what..FOREVER? Banned Arabs from entering the country? Which, or ALL?
NO, I don't blame Clinton....we have to get past that and start thinking of our country and not politics. Yes, he should have done something; one doesn't practically ignore incidences that vile just because their political term's coming to an end. Funny, he SURE does like to fly around the world acting like president to this day, but he had to dump the Cole issue and make us look susceptible..good job, Mr. Clinton.
THAT was early October, by the way.............
What a cop out. 3months. WHAT a cop out of yours, Ducky.
By the way, if you want to keep commenting here, stop the belittling again....Argue like an adult. thank you.
Just to add to your smacking of the rubber headed duck....Condi wasn't in office at the time of 9/11. That would be the U.N. butt-kisser Colin Powell.
However, if you consider the insanity that was going on with Bush "trying" to get an administration off the ground and congress trying to block nearly everyone of them in the months prior to 9/11, how could he have stopped the attack, again?
She wasn't the national security adviser?
You might want to check that.
Although I do share your disdain for Powell. That stunt in front of the U.N. when he disgraced us by going on about Saddam's Mobile Labs of Death was really too much.
Yes, Ducky...tell us again about how Bush should have reacted to the intel..that SOMEBODY is going to fly PLANES into BUILDINGS. I'm eager to hear.
The real 'stunt' was Saddam's....there is almost as much evidence that shows he DID have WMD's (killing 400K Kurds might have been a start, but I'm talking more potent ones) than there is that global climate change is NOT caused by humans.
BUT, you lefties rule the media so the country's operating blindly now...without its citizenry properly educated as to what's going on. Odd that so many who voted for Obama didn't know about what he wanted for a 'stimulus', huh? What's the number against it now...67% Odd, huh? Would they have known the folly...but THE ONE had a GREAT and dishonest media behind him. good job,.
The more the government can do for you the more it can do to you. It's a trade off but the weaker central government is preferable.
Can we maintain our freedom (liberties), but not destroy ourselves from within?
Pinky..sometimes, I think that if we maintain all our freedoms, we won't need to be destroying ourselves from within...we'll have PLENTY of terrorist help. (but that statement gets conservatives nuts because WE WANT OUR FREEDOMS and gets liberals nuts because they actually believe we're all being listened in to because 3 people have been wire tapped)
Since we let PC get in charge of our safety and started sliding on REALLY protecting this country, the enemies are just licking their chops.. "Those stupid Americans...they're so naive...just WAIT ... every time they weaken another safeguard, we're that much closer..God bless obama"
I know, I sound crazed...but I feel a funny peace about it; sheep to the slaughter or a peace of faith. I hope it's the second. I think so.
Colin Powell was sec. of state and Condi Rice was national security advisor.
George Tenet was head of CIA.
Then there was that other twit, who Used to work for CLinton, but Condi got his job and he got upset, and wrote a book.
The one who swore we would be struck by cyber terrorism in 2000.
The one who talked the government into spending lots of money on new systems , etc.
Richard, someting or other.
And , While the rocky transition was going on, thanks to the Gore team, Pete Holder was acting attorney general until John Ashcroft was confirmed. Lots of feet dragging there.
Richard Clarke, I think was the former security guy who seemed to really resent his new boss...Condi RIce, and would not go to meetings and so on.
WVDOTTR
We need an intervention with our so called government.
Obama wants to start up some new uraban office of something or other.
More money.
WVDOTTR
WV....every time I hear of this URBAN stuff in the stimulus package, etc., I think "Leave them ALONE..it's HEALTHY there..people think for themselves!"
Can't have THAT, sayeth THE ONE. Got to taint them, too.
Thomas DiLorenzo wrote a book on what he calls the real Lincoln. He claims that Lincoln was always intent on increasing the power of the national government at the expense of the states. DiLorenzo says this was the true conflict behind the Civil War. He says that the peaceful emancipation of slaves in England suggests that the same could have been accomplished without war in the States. The forward being written by Walter E Williams suggests that the book is more than typical liberal claptrap, though I'm not sure where I stand on the book's conclusion. At any rate, it gives us something else to think about when we consider the words of Abrahan Lincoln pertaining to the rightful role of the government.
Tio Bowser
Tio, I know there's a LOT of writing about Lincoln's motivations, etc., but I saw a piece on HISTORY or DISCOVERY the other night..Maybe PBS?..anyway, there was such a clear quote about his desire to free all men, in regard to slavery, that I won't again fall for the "Lincoln didn't really fight the civil war to free the slaves" thing. It might have not been the whole reason, but to read his words was moving and extremely indicative of that intention
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