This friend's 26 yr old grandson (I'll call him John) went to Africa with the Peace Corps...he was so disillusioned with the way nothing was really getting done in Kenya, where he was, that, after almost 2 years, he left and went to work for a French relief company with which he is working in Haiti right now.
John was visiting his grandparents last month and told him that the biggest problem in Haiti is that the money that's been sent there is not getting to the people nearly as quickly and effectively as it could. In fact, he says it's not reaching them at ALL. He said that he personally is held back by Aristide's grandson, with whom he's always bickering because he blocks all progress the French relief group is trying to accomplish in every way he can. The Haitian government is doing nothing but create roadblocks to progress, the United Nations is doing nothing but throw up walls instead of making things easier, too, and none of the relief workers can quite figure it out but it is doing nothing for their morale or the morale of the Haitian people. His father is going to see him there in a few weeks and I'm hoping he makes an attempt at getting the story to America.
The article about the Haitian orphans, linked above, says that "Yankoski urges those concerned about the (orphaned) children to be patient, and suggests they are far better off at Holy Family — with nutritious meals, schooling and counseling — than if they'd stayed in Haiti." John can vouch for that.
z
92 comments:
This American Life ran aprogram about efforts in Haiti.
It was the story of simply trying to teach the farmers to pack their mangoes for export and getting them some plastic packing containers.
It was an unbelievable nightmare.
Massive problems but letting rogue church sects just grab the children isn't much value, either.
"Rogue church" groups saved those children. Thank GOD for the churches because the Haitian gov't and the UN are letting the people down.
Haiti....will never...never climb out of the poverty, ignorance and the tragedy of being just Haitians.
150 years later Haiti is and alway be a basket case. Even worse than too many countries in Africa. There are just some people that cannot govern themselves or find a way out of their "national" malaise.
I've read where they were handed shovels by missionaries to help dig trenches for latrines...and they don't know how to begin. The missionaries do it for them.
Who's to blame for a totally backwards "nation" in the 21st Century? Not the 1st world nations. Yet we continue to shovel truck loads of money into their collective sewers...err...latrines. As long as they know...someone will always bail them out, things will never change.
It's amazing to see Haiti and the island of Hispaniola from the air. One side...the Dominican Republic...lush,green and productive, and without strife.
The Haitian side? Brown, lifeless with the visible runoff from deforestation bleeding into the sea.
Major
Like most African countries, the problem is, surprise, government.
And then the leftist and the "Tiers Mondiste" as we say in French think the Western World needs to change its way, consume less, while we're the ones sending the dollars to feed the fat dictators.
Sickening
Ya, FB, we send money to Haiti and the left applauds, not even checking to make sure it's not going to Switzerland.
We send money to Afghanistan to protect ourselves and it's a bad idea.
Major...looking down on Haiti/Dom. Rep. sounds like looking down on "Palestine" and Israel! hmmmm
Major
It's amazing to see Haiti and the island of Hispaniola from the air. One side...the Dominican Republic...lush,green and productive, and without strife.
My dad has also pointed to this interesting difference.
letting rogue church sects just grab the children isn't much value, either.
We know a family that was in the process of adopting when the earthquake hit. They already had one adopted Haitian child and wanted another.
Their motivation is not "earthquake reactive", but a pro-active, Christlike compassion for little ones who have no family of their own.
Perhaps the main difference between Haiti and the Dominican Republic is that voodoo is practiced by the majority in Haiti and it's not even on the Wikipedia list of religions in the Dominican Republic. The widespread belief that the Haitian voodoo priests did sell the country to the devil over 200 years ago seems to have truth to it.
Very few ‘charitable’ organizations deliver most of their assets to the people who need it. And of course, when you look up the word corrupt in the dictionary, you find it next to a map of Haiti. This means … as it was in Vietnam, there is always an official standing not far away with his hand out for his share of the take. Sadly, the Aristides are the brightest bulb in the box. Typical of progressives, they make themselves wealthy at everyone else’s expense, tax the people into oblivion, diminish humanity by denying even basic human rights, and rely almost exclusively on white guilt in France and the USA to help them through the rough times.
Someone said Haiti has been that was for 150 years and will in all likelihood, always be that way. In truth, the corruption in Haiti is no different than in most African countries, nor much different from the corruption that exists in most black administrations with state governments (school boards, etc.) And before anyone attempts to make this case, truth is not racism.
I wonder if Faith’s God allows her to lie for him the way Islam allows Muslims to lie for Allah. The majority of Haitians do not, do not, do not engage in Vodou. Those who do engage in satanic worship consists of no more than 10% of the population. When Faith claims there is a wide spread belief that Haitian Vodou priests sold the country to the devil, it causes me to wonder if she has been eating tainted escargot. It is easily the most insane statement I have ever heard in my entire life.
My Haitian parents were poor black, devout Catholics (who Faith seems to revile.) But unlike your heathen belief systems, which cut the penises of little baby boys, my people simply acknowledge our West African roots and our Christian faith, which was forced upon us by white society.
I lost my Christian sister in the recent earthquake, and she was not the least interested in Vodou. So you can see why I am confused by Faith’s non-Christian attitude about Haitians and amazed that she thinks she speaks for God.
Louis
Louis, I can't express to you how sorry I am that you lost your sister in the earthquake. Or that you're disturbed by comments here. Everyone has their own opinions and nobody knows what might touch someone's heart a bit more acutely than it might.
You should more than acknowledge, but celebrate, your West African roots and the Christianity you say was foisted upon your family. If the Bible is true, and I believe it is, it's the greatest gift you were ever given and I wish you faith.
Do you live in America or Haiti now?
God bless you, Louis, I'm glad you're here at my blog.
Also, I'm not sure what you mean about 'heathen belief systems' and circumcision, ...it's a Western civilization thing, not Christian, but it is a Jewish tradition as well.
Anyway, welcome, Louis.
Well that explains a great deal, Louis, and I'm very sorry for the loss of your sister and any pain I am causing you by my statements.
But I believe what I have said is the truth nevertheless. I did quite a bit of research on this some months ago that I don't feel up to tracking down again right now, that made it quite clear that something like AT LEAST 80% of Haitians practice voodoo, and that the Catholic Church approves of it. No mere 10%. I found that statistic in a number of places. I hope if you need me to I'll be up to gathering these facts for you eventually.
I also found Haitians themselves acknowledging that there was a voodoo ceremony for giving Haiti to Satan in exchange for some political advantage some 200 years ago.
I also found a Haitian Protestant Christian at You Tube showing video of voodoo practices and blaming much of Haiti's woes on them. Can't remember his name, if you can't find him I'll try to track him down when I have time.
In what sense do you mean you "acknowledge" your African roots? Does that mean accepting voodoo?
I'm sorry these things hurt your feelings but I hope you are able to be objective enough to consider that I might be right at least about some of it.
Here's a blog reference I just happened to find right now that indicates that this supposed pact with the devil is acknowledged by Haitians to be true history.
Further proof of its acceptance as historical reality is that there have been Christian efforts to cleanse the nation from the effect of that pact.
I found a US government document acknowledging this somewhere months ago. Sorry I'm so bad at keeping track of research information.
Just another comment: Religion should never be forced on anyone and it's too bad Catholicism had that practice, but there's a confusion about culture that gets involved in these things that needs to be straightened out. I don't consider myself part of "white culture" -- culture in the sense you, Louis, speak of African roots, is part of fallen humanity. European culture before it was Christianized was every bit as pagan and satanic as African culture. Witchcraft in various forms such as Druidism was pre-Christian European religion just as voudou is an African pre-Christian religion. Christianity saves ALL from such cultural trafficking with the devil. Jesus Christ is the one true God above all Gods and He came to save ALL people from the devil. The only TRUE culture is culture built on the revelations of Christ and not on our pagan past.
Haiti sounds like just another African sh!thole, best left alone with and unfunded. We in the west need to accept that we have spent trillions of dollars in many places around the world and have nothing much to show for it.
One lady from our fellowship went down with a medical mission group and she reported back that, in spite of the destruction and horrible circumstances, many Haitians demonstrated a beautiful attitude of trust in God--gathering to pray or help each other or worship together even as many have relatives who were missing or known to be dead.
And she was amazed at the way so many displayed a hope and peace of spirit that transcends the misery of this life. And those with whom she interacted were tremendously thankful for even the most trivial of kindnesses.
I don't know if she ought to be trusted though. We probably qualify as belonging to one of those "rogue church sects"
Perhaps the earthquake is a matter of judgment...perhaps not. America's had her share of messes lately and we may well deserve no less. But it is interesting to me how the Lord is good to strengthen and purify His own during such times.
H
Just curious, Heather, what "roque church sect" you belong to?
That's of course "rogue," not "roque."
Oh and thanks for undermining my argument without making the slightest attempt to show why I might be wrong. Seems nobody cares about facts, only feelings any more.
Just curious, Heather, what "roque church sect" you belong to?
We're non-denominational Bible-believing "Protestants" and I was referring to Ducky's silly assumption.
I did not attack your argument, Faith.
And I did not realize it isn't okay to merely acknowledged that we know someone who was there and, in spite of the apparent voodoo and Catholic confusion, has seen signs of true Christian love for the Lord.
Perhaps the earthquake is a matter of judgment...perhaps not.
That's not "attacking" my argument directly, no, but indirectly you are certainly raising questions about it.
Oh gee, Heather, and now you're accusing me of telling you it's wrong to tell the anecdote you told?
You seem to try to say a lot by insinuation instead of directly so that a person can't pin you down. Perhaps I'm wrong about this but that's the impression I get.
Oh gee, Heather, and now you're accusing me of telling you it's wrong to tell the anecdote you told?
You seem to try to say a lot by insinuation instead of directly so that a person can't pin you down. Perhaps I'm wrong about this but that's the impression I get.
If I feel the need to argue with someone, I make an effort to say exactly what I mean while directly engaging the one whom I believe to be in error.
You have most definitely read more into my statement than I ever intended.
As you may recall, I also have acknowledged that the Lord brings both judgment and discipline upon the world by way of natural disasters. There is nothing dishonest or manipulative in saying "I don't claim to know His whole purpose, but can see that He works good out of such things."
H
It may be that you don't consciously intend to be making accusations but perhaps you are doing so without being conscious of it. You did not SAY "I don't claim to know His whole purpose, but can see that He works good out of such things" you left it to others to figure it out from something far less direct. However, that statement too appears to be a veiled accusation of me, Heather, and patting yourself on the back as well. You don't see this?
At least Pris just hits me over the head with her accusations, but I can answer her. You seem to try to prevent anyone from ever answering you.
Maybe I'm the only one but I get this impression over and over from you that you are hinting at some kind of criticism of others that you don't want to say directly. Usually that we fail to meet your standard of Christian love. Sometimes you're more direct about this but you seem never to give anyone the slightest benefit of the doubt.
And when you referred to the "rogue church" I had NO idea that Ducky had used the expression. Perhaps you simply expect people to be aware of such things, but we aren't, you need to identify your references better.
However, that statement too appears to be a veiled accusation of me, Heather, and patting yourself on the back as well. You don't see this?
No personal or general accusation against you, subliminal or otherwise, was intended on my part.
In telling me what my motives are (ie making veiled accusations and patting myself on the back) you are making unfounded assumptions of your own.
If you have chosen to believe I'm indirectly trying to cause trouble, there really isn't much I can do to change your opinion.
That is my honest and directly addressed perception.
And when you referred to the "rogue church" I had NO idea that Ducky had used the expression. Perhaps you simply expect people to be aware of such things, but we aren't, you need to identify your references better.
First post on this thread. Z responded immediately after. I try to read comments before adding my own and just assume others do, too. I'm sorry you missed seeing it and thus misunderstood what I was saying.
Z,
I've said this from the beginning, but if my commentary here is considered by you to be disruptive, I will, upon your request, return to reading quietly.
Heather
I'm not "telling you what your motives are," they are implied in what you SAY. So sorry you can't understand this and won't even think about it.
As I tried to say I could be wrong about your motives. So far you haven't given me any reason to think so. You just constantly parry everything I say.
I didn't say I think you are trying to cause trouble. Good grief, Heather. Communication is difficult enough under the best of circumstances and you don't make it any easier.
So far you haven't given me any reason to think so. You just constantly parry everything I say.
Okay.
Heather, Faith writes this "Maybe I'm the only one but I get this impression over and over from you that you are hinting at some kind of criticism of others that you don't want to say directly. Usually that we fail to meet your standard of Christian love."
I think that's worth some consideration...that there is some truth in it and maybe it would be better if we had less of that.
Let's all just be more direct and, for the record, I believe we can question the motives of others without necessarily being 'guilty' of those motives ourselves.
Thanks very much....
Z,
I'm sorry to have given Faith the impression she has of me. And I don't know how to prove that I'm not "hinting" that she or anyone else isn't meeting *my* standard of Christian behavior. I had thoughts and shared them.
I have made myself physically ill at times from reading and carefully considering feedback from other people in order to determine whether I am being unreasonable or unChristlike in my own behavior.
Sorry to be a bother. :(
I think Faith is more the instigator here.
Heather, Anonymous talks of 'instigating' but that's not particularly the point that we need to be concerned with here. I'm sorry about that comment.
This is about a tone. not so much content, and we all have to be careful we don't sound like we're teaching or are critical...and ALL of us do that from time to time...these are COMMENTS and, obviously, one doesn't see the heart, the eyes, tenderness, real anger, etc...it's just words...so we have to be double careful we're perceived as we mean to be.
unbelievable.
My blog's about ALL of us....let's just move on.
we've been there, done that....
what do you all think of the email from my black girlfriend in my top post by George Will?
"and our Christian faith, which was forced upon us by white society."
Louis...sorry about your sister mon ami. But I'll wager that those "white christians" didn't have to force you take aid, medical care or rescueing or rebuilding funds, did they?
Those same White Christians have been making humanitarian trips to Haiti for 100 years. So where do you get off ( it appears ) for blaming them for your current and continuing state of affairs.
It never ceases to amaze me how many Haitians take refuge in America for better jobs, free education and every aspect of help the US can provide...even though the intent of AA was to better Black Americans...( Hatians have never been "victims" of "racism in the US ) yet you never return to Haiti to try to better it.
Sending travelers check back home doesn't alleviate the situation. Nor sitting in exile ( Aristide ) with a fat bank account provided by 1st world countries...doesn't either.
You come here with your hands out....they're filled by the generosity ( not an obligation either ) by those same White Christians and you take it. But you resent it when a bit of that same Christianity is expected from you?
How about donating your computer to some of your friends and relatives back in Haiti? Oh....no electricity or internet connections I suppose? Whose fault is that after a few trillion dollars in aid from all over the planet?
It's time for Haitians to take charge of....Haitians. We're getting a bit too crowded and a bit to short of chump change these days too.
Pffffffft
Major
//Well, I don't believe the earthquake upon Haiti was "God's judgement" nor an excuse to bash the religion(s) of the Haitian people.//
I certainly agree. If we do this, we must include bashing other religions as well. If we bash voodooers then we must bash the American Indians for their beliefs and Hindus for theirs.
I do not agree with those religions, but I am not here on this earth to pass judgment on them. Those who do are usurping God's right and responsibility to do so.
Bash? If we can't judge the works of the devil we're really in bad shape as a society.
But of course we're a post-Christian society now and on our way back to paganism ourselves and few know how to judge anything from a Biblical perspective any more or even gives a damn.
//Bash? If we can't judge the works of the devil we're really in bad shape as a society. //
It is not my job to judge others or their works.
If we want freedom to worship God as we choose, we must be willing to afford them the same courtesy, unless they are calling for our death and destruction.... for some twisted reason or another.
If God is truly in our hearts and minds, nothing they do can harm us without His consent.
The God I serve does not require this of us. It is His job to pass judgment and His alone. We will win very few people to Christ by pointing fingers and passing judgment.
"The God I serve does not require this of us. It is His job to pass judgment and His alone. We will win very few people to Christ by pointing fingers and passing judgment."
You know, LA, I'm starting to think the way you do and I didn't until the last two weeks or so, believe it or not. In the most amazing ways, dropping "hints" in books, strange happenings with friends and strangers, etc etc, He's showing me in a million ways that we can't judge. There's righteous anger, but mostly that's HIS.
No, we can't bring people to Him like that, but I held SO TIGHTLY to my "they MUST change their minds and see what they're doing!" crap for all these years in a way.....if not outwardly, I thought those things quite a bit.
WHen people start to come to Him, then the Word opens up, too, and we learn the Truth, not just the glowing, happy stuff it took to GET them there :-) That's up to the Holy Spirit. Not me.
Amen Z.
Doctrine without love is oppression, and love without doctrine is sentimentality.
I haven't "judged" anyone. I haven't said one thing about people having to change their minds or having to agree with me or anything like that. All I have done is say what the Bible tells me about the nature of natural religions, and people can do with the information what they please.
Facts are facts. I don't tell people what to do, I tell what I know from God's word, they can make up their own minds once they have the facts. God CAN use such information to bring people to Him too, though, so it's not just academic knowledge. If people don't know they are on the wrong path why should they look for a better path?
But all this crap about how I'm "judging" just sounds like the usual leftist relativism that denies that there is such a thing as facts and truth and that God WANTS us to know these things. He didn't give us His word so we could just go on in our own made-up nonsense, pretending there's no devil and that people aren't going to hell all around us.
Luther and Calvin and the whole Protestant Reformation teach that people have to know that they are sinners and under God's wrath before they can truly come to God -- have to know what they are to be saved FROM in order to seek salvation. While some do come to God without that background, this IS the Biblical perspective and it's just modern evangelical mush-headedness that thinks the gospel is a loveydovey Christ and ignores hell and the bondage of humanity to the devil.
Doctrine without love is oppression
Yeah, but what you think love is isn't what love is.
Faith,
You say:
//I haven't "judged" anyone.//
...then in the same comment:
//Facts are facts. I don't tell people what to do, I tell what I know from God's word, they can make up their own minds once they have the facts.//
....and finally:
//But all this crap about how I'm "judging" just sounds like the usual leftist relativism that denies that there is such a thing as facts and truth and that God WANTS us to know these things.//
As for moral relativism and the likes, I have never denied the existence of Satan, never denied the truths contained within the Bible, and it would be a grave error on your part to assume that you know anything of which I believe. You know nothing about me, except what you have been told by me. Which is, precious little.
Forgive me here, but I think the discussion you are offering in this instance is every bit as pious and rigid as the Pharisees offered in the days of Christ. You may not see it, you may not intend for it to sound this way. But it comes across that way, nonetheless.
Facts are facts, but I do not think you understand the entire spectrum of the Bible anymore than anyone else does. I have read it for years on end and I still do not have all of the answers.
And while it is certainly true that principles found in the Bible can help bring people to Christ, it is primarily a life that strives to live those principles, a life that emanates true joy and love .....that will draw people long before judgmental words of alienation and estrangement.
Sometimes you get one shot and one opportunity. If you blow it and you stand a good chance of pushing that person further away from the truth. They may never exercise any will or desire to know anything more, ever again. Love and understanding does not do that. Joy does not deflect or get defensive. It attracts and it keeps that which it attracts.
//Yeah, but what you think love is isn't what love is.//
Another fine example....this alone makes my case. How do you know what is in Elmer's heart?
Yeah, but what you think love is isn't what love is.
I do know it doesn't involve sticking a finger in someones chest and puffing out your own.
straight out of the Satanic NIV version
1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Years ago, I was crossing a street in downtown San Diego, California. I and several others stood on the corner waiting for the light to change. Suddenly, five or six young people descended on us trying to push flyers into everyone's hands. A gentleman standing next to me, much older than I was then, refused to take the flyer. The young zealot said to him, "What's the matter mister, don't you want to be saved?"
The older man bristled, "What right do you have to assume I am not already saved? How dare you challenge me about my faith ... you don't know me, and I don't know you."
Observing this gentleman stand up for himself was wonderful to behold. His point was spot on. He issued a timely warning to these arrogant zealots to exercise care not to drive people away from Christ.
Lately, I've seen a lot of zealotry here. Arrogant people talking to others as if we are ignorant children. Now as it happens, I'm probably older than most everyone else. I don't want anyone lecturing me, particularly when --as Sunset said-- they don't know me. Z can lecture me; she knows me. Everyone else, piss off.
Mustang! SO FUNNY! When I lecture you, let me know!! I'll stop! xxx
Bash? If we can't judge the works of the devil we're really in bad shape as a society.
How is surviving an earthquake and having the deaths of your friends, family, and countrymen described as "God's Judgement" or the "collateral damage" thereof a work of the devil? They were supposed to die but God missed?
The earthquake upon Haiti was not "God's judgement." It was an earthquake.
But of course we're a post-Christian society now and on our way back to paganism ourselves and few know how to judge anything from a Biblical perspective any more or even gives a damn.
If "post-Christian paganism" means the act of disagreeing with the preening "judgements" offered by, quite frankly, the biblically illiterate, I'll just cock my eyebrow at all that Pat Robertsonism and continue my faith in Jesus.
Now everybody's preaching at me. I didn't preach at anyone, but apparently nobody noticed. Just don't like hearing the truth about Haiti, have to make it into some kind of failure on my part. Oh well.
Faith,
Your "truth" (::cough cough::) about Haiti is that your God "judged" them for the Voudon practioners among them with a earthquake along a fault line that pre-existed both Voudon and inhabitants on the island, killing a quarter million people (Voudon practioners, Catholics, and Christians), maimed and injured another third of a million people (Voudon, Catholic, and Christian alike), and rendered homeless over a million people (Voudon, Catholic, and Christian), and leaving the island in ruin, to the suffering of the inhabitants there, Voudon, Catholic, and Christian.
I reject your "truth."
Not only is it disgraceful to say God smited Haiti for its Voudon practicioners, you're saying God smited Haiti and not only hit Catholics and Christians among the Voudon practicioners you allege He was targetting, He left the island wrecked but still inhabited with Voudon practicioners.
My God must have better aim than yours.
Or perhaps your "truth" isn't true at all, but a mockery of it.
//Just don't like hearing the truth about Haiti, have to make it into some kind of failure on my part. Oh well.//
Your truth is based on something that Pat Robertson said. This is the same man who called for the assassination, killing, of another man named Hugo Chavez.
The God I know gave Moses a commandment to not kill. I believe there are some strong cases for killing another, but in my opinion because the guy is a socialist dictator isn;t one of them.
I am far from a socialist, but maybe Pat Robertson and his followers may want to consider that God allows certain leaders to rise up in certain nations, for a specific purpose that may or not be clear to us. It sounds like a lot of people like playing God in this world....... and they do not know nearly as much about Him as they think.
I think it's time to reopen my theology blog that i have allowed to remain dormant for so long.
I guess "love" is defined by avoiding giving a Biblical reason for the sufferings of a nation that might help them change their course and improve their circumstances.
God is so weak and/or uninterested in events on the planet that He can't keep a fault line from slipping, or a hurricane from destroying a city or some jihadists from taking down the WTC.
We mustn't judge their religion, only God can judge it (although 1, how that's possible since He's too weak or passive He can't stop an earthquake, and 2 actually, He did judge their religion if anyone's noticing). We should leave them to go on practicing the main cause of their abject poverty, political incompetence and general ruin while we throw money at the problem that can never help them.
Just as we go on denying that God was judging America on 9/11, our denial being the reason Islam is getting bigger and bigger in this nation even to support for an abominable mosque at ground zero.
No, I did not get any of this from Pat Robertson, I understand these things myself from the Bible through some favorite writers and preachers, among whom are not Pat Robertson.
I'm aware that there are some who agree with me and some who don't, but it comes from the Bible and not from Pat Robertson. When people get so uppity indignant outraged against him for merely telling the truth I will defend him, however.
On 9/11 I knew it was God's judgment, most preachers in the nation said anything but that, but there were a few who told the truth.
So some disagree that my view of this is Biblical, OK, we disagree then; and some think it shouldn't be mentioned even if it is Biblical because that's not "love"-- we should even respect their satanic religion and never mention it might be a problem for them. I'm not going to even agree to disagree with that.
But I can of course desist from bringing it up at Geeeez where nobody wants to hear it.
LA SUNSETT "I think it's time to reopen my theology blog that i have allowed to remain dormant for so long."
I do, too.
Faith, I don't think anybody says we should RESPECT anything satanic....
Part of the Christian experience, it seems, is arguing the fine points...back and forth, it's a fascinating discussion but sometimes makes it look like we don't agree on the basic Gospel, and that, of course, isn't the case.
Wouldn't it be great if Jesus could come and comment on this stuff!? "listen, you're ALL wrong, let me tell you............."
Bring it on!
//Faith, I don't think anybody says we should RESPECT anything satanic....//
Exactly, Z.
BUT...we should respect all people, regardless of their beliefs. No one will be won over by condemning people to hell and telling them God is judging them, because they are evil and Satanic. That is not Faith's job, it's not my job, it's God's job.
In my opinion, it sounds like Faith wants us to condemn all people who do not believe as she does. Maybe that is not her intention. Yet that is how it is coming across.
If this is the case, it is not a good pretext to base one's salvation on and certainly not a way that God wants us to act. It's precisely how Satan wants people to act, so it will drive people away from God. It's a perfect strategy in his part..
Now..... if you will all excuse me for a few hours, I must do my best to heal people of their sicknesses.
Faith,
I believe the earthquake in Haiti killed thousands of Voudon practicioners, Catholics, and Christians indiscriminately without regard for their religion, and left thousands more Voudon worshippers, Catholics, and Christians maimed and / or homeless indiscriminately without regard for their religion because they all happened to be atop a known fault line when it shifted.
You believe God killed thousands of Haitians, and maimed and / or made homeless thousands more, specifically to "judge" the Voudon practicioners, but in effect killing and maiming Catholics and Christians along with them and leaving the island still inhabited with Voudon worshippers. You believe God meant to kill the Voudon worshippers only, but hit the Catholics and Christians there as well because although He can allegedly control earthquakes He can't steer them with precision to His intended targets.
In other words, you believe in a self-contradicting premise that can't be ridiculed enough.
Think about your implications some more. You're saying that you would walk the destroyed streets of Haiti, surveying Catholics without homes and Christian amputees pulled from the rubble and tell them "You know, this would have never happened if your friends and neighbors weren't Voudon practicioners." You're saying you would look at a child orphaned by the destruction and tell him, "It's God's judgement upon the Voudon worshippers that killed your parents."
And we're not supposed to revile your musings as disgusting, hateful filth?
On 9/11 I knew it was God's judgment, most preachers in the nation said anything but that, but there were a few who told the truth.
Osama Bin Laden will be relieved to hear you say that his aircraft hijacking followers were doing God's will.
"All things work for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose." Romans 8.
We can't know what His plan is for anyone, even those poor Christians pulled out of the rubble without legs.
We also can't speak for Him or judge others...we can only tell His Truth through scripture.
SAY HALLELUJIAH! Hold on, LA SUnsett...I'll come heal, too :-)
//We also can't speak for Him or judge others...we can only tell His Truth through scripture.//
No one is perfect, certainly not me. But if we live our lives as we should, people will notice and some will inquire to the source of our strength and joy.
If they ask us why we are the way we are, and if we reply it's because "I know the truth and everyone else who doesn't is going to hell", it's not going to go over very well, is it?
Anyway, I have said my piece. I hope Faith re-evaluates her stance. If not, we tried. I am done for now, until I re-open the theology blog.
I'm obviously not going to get anywhere with people who insist on misreading what I'm writing, saying I'm condemning when I'm doing no such thing, falsely saying I'm claiming to know everything about God's will, and so on.
The subject is what happened to Haiti and why, and I gave what I consider to be the biblical answer. I assume the true answer would be of benefit to them as a nation. We are not talking evangelism, we are not talking the gospel, we are not talking how we are personally to live, we are talking God's sovereignty over events as revealed from scripture.
My understanding of this comes out of the Reformed and Puritan traditions. A W Pink's book, The Sovereignty of God is a good reference. The same understanding is to be found in most of the Puritan writers, also in Jonathan Edwards and many other greats of the Christian faith.
Highly charged emotions are being imposed on and read into this. "I know the truth and everyone else is going to hell" is just plain slander of what I'm saying, LAS.
"You're saying you would look at a child orphaned by the destruction and tell him, "It's God's judgement upon the Voudon worshippers that killed your parents."
This is a vile lie, beamish. Nothing I've said even hints at how I would respond to the situation or the people were I there.
And by the way, why aren't you telling major that you expect him to tell an orphaned child that his suffering is because of the laziness and stupidity of the people and their leaders?
Or telling MK that he/she would confront the orphaned child with the information that Haiti is a typical African shithole that deserves no one's aid?
Faith, you said "I'm doing no such thing, falsely saying I'm claiming to know everything about God's will, and so on."
I hate to stir this up again but you DO say it is God's judgment on the Haitian's voodoo which caused the earthquake, no?
//My understanding of this comes out of the Reformed and Puritan traditions. A W Pink's book, The Sovereignty of God is a good reference. The same understanding is to be found in most of the Puritan writers, also in Jonathan Edwards and many other greats of the Christian faith. //
A Puritan writer? The same ones that burned witches? Not exactly a credible source and not Biblical in the least. I guess we now know the source of your personal theology and it does compare with radical Islam in terms of a vengeful God that expects us all to exact revenge on people who differ with our beliefs.
//Highly charged emotions are being imposed on and read into this. "I know the truth and everyone else is going to hell" is just plain slander of what I'm saying, LAS.//
You may not be using the exact words that I used, but the message is ringing through loud and clear. As for emotions playing any part of my take, I really do not care what you think. This discussion does not anger me in the least. You will answer to God for your statements and beliefs, not me.
I am at peace with God, myself as a person, and stand very confident in my ability to read through BS when I see it. And much of your prose on this particular thread is just that.
I recall Faith projecting emotions on someone else (Heather I believe) the other day.
LA Sunsett I just realized I'm talking to someone who doesn't know anything about the history of the church. Explains only too much. Obviously you know nothing of the Puritan tradition to reduce it all to one brief incident in America when it included some of the most brilliant minds of both England and America. No wonder your theology is so lacking. No wonder modern day American evangelical theology is so mush-headed. Read John Owen, read Calvin, read Edwards, read Pink, read Martyn Lloyd-Jones. Visit another church than whichever one is keeping your head in that cramped little lock box.
What's coming through to you "loud and clear" is a voice in your own head. And it's you who are the judgmental one, by those mush-headed standards of whatever your narrow denomination happens to be.
Have your relationship with God. Nothing wrong with that. But leave theology to people who know something.
I thought you were "done." Well, now I'm done.
Faith, you said "I'm doing no such thing, falsely saying I'm claiming to know everything about God's will, and so on."
I hate to stir this up again but you DO say it is God's judgment on the Haitian's voodoo which caused the earthquake, no?
Is that EVERYTHING about God's will????
I believe I've said that if we know from scripture that God is sovereign over all things, that nothing happens without Him, that if it weren't so we'd be talking about a weak God like the God of the Deists who doesn't involve himself in human affairs, and if we know how he dealt with various nations from scripture -- tons of references in the OT -- then we know disaster is judgment for sin.
And if we know all that AND we know God considers to be sin AND we know something about the spiritual and political condition of the nation in question -- sometimes we don't but in Haiti's case we know a lot -- then we can infer reasons for God's actions to some extent, sometimes a great extent.
The practice of voodoo is the elephant in the living room in the case of Haiti. 80% practice it no matter what Louis thinks.
If that has been going on for over 200 years as I've seen it described and discussed in various places, especially if there was a pact with the devil made, which looks to me like it is historical fact, then good grief, what is the problem with understanding WHY God might judge Haiti? Good grief!!!!!
And think of all the OTHER ways the nation is a wreck, the hideous political situation that exploits the people and doesn't help them, the lack of enterprise and the abject poverty. All this is both sin AND judgment.
It's really sad that this isn't obvious. And it's really offensive that I'm being talked at like I'm committing some kind of horrific personal offense for offering a biblical explanation and defending Pat Robertson from judgmental holier-than-thou evangelicals.
People said far worse against Haiti than I said on this thread and it was their own opinion, whereas I've been giving the biblical perspective. Odd that this should attract such derision. The devil must not want his works criticized so he's got you all jumping on my case.
//LA Sunsett I just realized I'm talking to someone who doesn't know anything about the history of the church.//
I will match my library with yours anyday.
But you reduce all of the great history of Puritanism to one brief event that you talk about like any nonChristian does?
Have you read any of those I named?
And who are your favorite Christian writers and preachers by the way?
//And who are your favorite Christian writers and preachers by the way?//
I don't have any favorites, per se. And I cannot write everything I know in a comment.
If you are sincere about knowing more about what I know, I will be re-opening my theological blog soon. You will be welcome to participate.
If you are serious, it would help to have a an understanding of the events leading up to the Reformation, why it happened, and where it may have been predicted in Revelation. History of the Reformation by Jean Henri Merle d'Aubigné may be too over-bearing, too dry of reading for you. I always like to go to the writings of Martin Luther, himself. I don't buy everything any of the writers say. When I read any of them.... I take what is good and profitable, I discard the rest.
All preachers are human beings, they are flawed like everyone else. The ones who are on TV, I have no use for at all. They teach nothing to me and I do not trust them. They are wolves in sheep's clothing.
I can count on my hands the ministers I have known, who have/had a reasonable amount of understanding of the church. None have come from TV.
You've said terrible things about me for no reason I can see. I may not want to get treated that way on your theological blog too, but I'll take a look.
If you are finding the Reformation in Revelation we probably have very different theologies in any case and you don't seem to have much tolerance for any but your own, whatever it is.
I do NOT watch televangelists. I do NOT watch Pat Robertson.
If you aren't going to tell me if you've read anyone I listed, or name others you particularly like to read, I have to suspect that we are on VERY different tracks indeed.
I avoid reading academics about the history of the church, which is what D'Aubigne strikes me as being from a quick glance through google. I'm only interested in those who have a clear born-again perspective.
LA Sunsett: I looked at your theology blog and have the impression that you are a loner maverick in your beliefs and that your condemnation of me comes from a lack of knowledge.
I have the impression that you've never even heard of the names I listed, as you seem to think they are contemporary preachers? John Owen is generally considered the greatest of the Puritans. IIRC he was dean at Oxford when John Locke studied there.
I'll let you google the rest on my list. None I listed are alive today.
Your dismissal of Puritanism in terms of the incident of witch-burning is incredibly ignorant. For one thing you don't know that there were Puritan leaders who opposed it and finally denounced it and brought it to an end. It was a very minor incident in which a few zealots got carried away.
I thought I should post some information about the Puritan and Reformed view of the sovereignty of God so you can see who you are condemning. You can read the various authors' writings on the subject by clicking on the links on the list. Luther is one by the way.
One of the links is to John Piper's article on God's sovereignty in the WTC attack. He is arguing against the mainstream attitude that God didn't do it. He is able to develop the idea beyond what I could in posts here, especially while under attack.
I conclude with Amos 3:6: Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? That's the King James. Modern versions have "calamity" for "evil." Shall there be calamity in a city and the Lord have not done it?
Anticipating that you will take exception to my calling the Puritan witch-hunt "minor" I want to be clear that I mean that in the context of witch hunts over the centuries until then it amounted to very little. Compared to hundreds of thousands executed in previous contexts, mostly Roman Catholic but also Protestant, only 20 were executed in Salem, Massachusetts, and they repented of their error and made restitution for it. Smithsonian on the event.
Not only was it minor compared to European Christian witch executions but minor compared to its incidence around the world. It seems to me that a Christian who claims to know as much as you claim ought to know these things.
Faith,
With all due respect. I don't think you will find many Christians from denying the sovereignty of God. This Piper guy does not completely understand how God works. He fails to take into account that God causes nothing bad. He is incapable. So who does that leave?
I am sorry to say that I find this to be baby food. This is why I rarely get much out of sermons from today's evangelical world. They hawk the world for proselytes and cannot teach them anything once they get them. I think their people are hungry for a deeper understanding of God, but they cannot give it to them.
//Anticipating that you will take exception to my calling the Puritan witch-hunt "minor" I want to be clear that I mean that in the context of witch hunts over the centuries until then it amounted to very little.//
You are minimizing. I know the tortures of the Catholic Church in the Inquisition was larger, but you cannot use that to defend this injustice, by minimizing the seriousness of this offense. You cannot defend it, period. It was indefensible. Until you can come to terms with that, you are only fooling yourself.
//they repented of their error and made restitution for it. //
It didn't bring any of the 20 back....did it?
With all due respect. I don't think you will find many Christians from denying the sovereignty of God. .
So what have you been arguing with me about, and even just about condemning me to hell over?
This Piper guy does not completely understand how God works.
That is almost hilarious. John Piper is one of the best known Reformed preachers today. That you haven't heard of him doesn't say much for you, and it says even less that you would speak of him so disparagingly, putting yourself arrogantly above other Christians.
He fails to take into account that God causes nothing bad. He is incapable. So who does that leave?
Oh balderdash. Everything God does ultimately has a good objective, including His judgments for sin which can be dire calamities, but you sound like one of those silly people who think His doing good accords with human experience of good, so that He can only be nicey nice. THAT's babyish. God tells us we are wrong to think He is like us.
"Who does that leave?" Oh dear, you mean ... you mean... Satan? What balderdash. Can Satan act independently of God? Go read the list at Monergism again. God is sovereign over ALL things, over the universe, over nature, over Satan. Satan must get permission from God for anything he does.
And if you follow Luther, you should know that Luther called Satan "God's devil," meaning of course that the devil can't do a thing unless God wills it.
You don't understand God's sovereignty at all.
I am sorry to say that I find this to be baby food.
Aw, aren't you special.
This is why I rarely get much out of sermons from today's evangelical world. They hawk the world for proselytes and cannot teach them anything once they get them.
Reformed preaching is head and shoulders above standard evangelical preaching, which can't face hard truths.
I think their people are hungry for a deeper understanding of God, but they cannot give it to them.
Well, they sure aren't going to get it from the likes of academics like D'Aubigne, who talks about God's prophets as if they intellectually thought up things like Satan's role, which you seem to imply at your blog. The whole tone of that sort of discussion of the things of God is bogus. Christian theologians must first of all demonstrate that they have a living faith, and Piper has that, D'Aubigne doesn't.
You came on condemning me in this discussion and I've discovered that you are ignorant of everything that matters.
I'm not "defending" the witch persecutions. Apparently you can't read. You accused me of other things I didn't say, so I guess you're going to get this wrong too.
Did anybody BUT the Puritans repent and offer restitution?
No.
Read some of the Puritan theologians. Read John Owen. Learn something from one of the fallible greats instead of trusting in your own fallible far less great head.
Faith,
It's more than obvious that you are not capable of having an intelligent discussion so this will be my final response on this matter. You are free to have the last word if you wish, I do not have any more time to waste on someone that is so upwardly proud and haughty.
Your definition of sovereignty and your conception of God is not the same as mine. You can condemn me to hell for if it pleases you, it will not change one thing and it doesn't make you right.
And suffice it to say that I don't care, because I am at peace with my beliefs and the manner in which I arrived at them.
If you need TV preachers and false prophets to help you maintain your salvation, have at it. Be my guest.
I do not know Piper because I have no use for him or his teachings. ANYONE who says God causes these things does not understand God and I will not waste my valuable time reading garbage like that. I do not care what you or anyone else says, they just don't get it. Like I said, I will match my library with yours any day.
These people who you crystallize and idolize are not led by God, they are led by their own greed and proud spirits. They are deceived, they are blind. Very few of those who have large ministries and operations like this, have any understanding of spiritual things because they are consumed with money and power.
This discussion unfolded because you erroneously attributed the earthquake in Haiti and 9/11 to God's judgment. This is the same radical thinking that fuels radical Islam. The only difference is you are not openly calling for deaths of people you disagree with......yet. But I wouldn't be surprised if I found that you take pleasure in calamities that befall those people, with whom you disagree.
You think you know everything about God, and yet you demonstrate you know little. And you want to turn that around on me. So be it.
You claim to have the love of God in your heart, but you act in a way that says you are full of bitterness and hatred towards other fellow human beings who do not believe as you do. These are not fruits of the Spirit.
In my mind, you are worse than the ungodly. Because in your words you profess you know God.... but in your works, you deny Him. At least the ungodly can repent and have a chance to attain that which you think you already have.
Well.....good luck with that and as I said, you can have the last word.
May God open up you eyes someday without judging you as you have judged me, and many others.
OK. Have a good day.
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