"A British bishop whose denial of the Holocaust embroiled Pope Benedict XVI in controversy has apologized for his remarks, a Catholic news agency said Thursday. Bishop Richard Williamson, with the conservative Society of St. Pius X, had faced worldwide criticism over a television interview in which he said no Jews were gassed during the Holocaust."Here's a fascinating line from the article: "Most historians believe about 6 million Jews died at the hands of the Nazis during the Holocaust." "MOST HISTORIANS?" Only "MOST?" But, that's beside my point here. What about this?:
The Pope had excommunicated Bishop Williamson in 1988, according to the article, for having said that 'only' 300,000 Jews died in the concentration camps and there were 'no NAZI gas chambers.' I'd have excommunicated him, too! Germany's Catholic Bishops are of the mind that this Bishop must go. He says he's sorry if this caused hurt to anyone but is not really apologizing (more on this in the linked article).
Now, Nancy Pelosi works hard to make sure women can abort unborn children.....which, whatever you or I think of it, is totally against Catholic church teachings (and most Biblical Christian teachings, for that matter), and she is, according to her (and who am I to say different?!), a practicing Catholic.....John Kerry was warned not to take Holy Communion, by the way.....I wonder if Pelosi will be denied communion, or even excommunicated for this?
I VERY MUCH hesitate to comment on someone's church affiliation and their standing in that church, but this made me curious and I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Thanks.
z
36 comments:
Shame on the fellow.
As for Pelosi, why does she bother calling herself a catholic, she should just join Oprah's cult, er sorry, new-age, anything-goes church.
She may be welcome in the church, but at the end of the day when she's at the pearly gates, there won't be any weaseling and slithering allowed. He will decide and his decision will be final. If my understanding of his word is any good, i'd be very uncomfortable if i were her.
I'm with you Z, they either follow the church's teachings or they are not a Catholic. This is not limited to Catholicism though. Dems treat religion cynically, using it for their convenience.
And for anyone reading, no childish comments about "but, but, the Republicans do it too". No, the GOP is not perfect but the reality is that the Dems use Christianity to get elected but then go against almost all of it's teachings. Abortion, gay marraige, alternative families/lifestyles. This is not as much an attack on their beliefs on these issues, they have a right to their own beliefs, it is a request for a little honesty.
Pelosi will never be denied anything by the Catholic Church. I'm sorry to say that the double standard applies.
She should be excommunicated, in my view. Abortion, particularly in late term, is clearly murder.
The Pope had excommunicated Bishop Williamson in 1988 ...
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Just for accuracy, the original excommunication had nothing to do with denial. He was ordained by an excommunicant who had split from the church over Vatican II.
Organized religion is a joke. It is man made. This is why I steer completely away from it and maintain that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.
In other words, I don't need "religion" to steer me toward the path of being Righteous, yet a lot of people get confused with that.
You all may want to recall Father Robert Drinan who was in Congress until Pope John Paul required all priests to leave secular government.
The argument for morality vs. legality.
Bishop Williamson obviously does not anticipate that what he says has consequences.
Why should someone who doesn't understand that be in leadership?
Oh, yeah...I forgot...President BO.
Let's Throw the Bum Out, he's a disgrace.
these people don't worship the same God we worship, they worship that golden image (could be the oscar) but its not the God of creation. That's why California is controlling the state of the union. Obama is all about Image!!! Heck, look at who supported him, this EMPTY SUIT.
MK...he should be ashamed, but it doesn't look like he is. He says it was old information (a blatant LIE) and he's just sorry anybody was hurt.
Chuck...you're right...good point. Alternative lifestyles, and families, gay marriage, abortion...championing things because they're the easy way out (can't sacrifice ourselves in ANY way that's uncomfortable and not what we want to do, right?)...gets votes BIG TIME, from quite the upstanding, disciplined, value-full people, eh? Not.
As I always say, it's not our business what anybody does, but to SAY you're are a part of a group but not adhere to the tenets of that group is unprincipled and dishonest.
Always...it's surprising that the Pope did NOTHING because they certainly don't agree with a lot.
I'm guessing this would have been a publicity nightmare, the Right bending to the threats of a leftie media shouting "Look! What kind of CHRISTIANS who'd EXCOMMUNICATE someone for their OPINIONS?"
We could do books on how much better society would be if we went back to those wonderful rules in the Scriptures which do NOT constrain but set us completely free. Our churches have lied to us, many of them
Steve Harkonen, but I'm know you understand that not everyone agrees with you on that subject. Maybe you haven't had the pleasure of a church body which buoys you up in having friends who share the same worship service, classes, social gatherings. Until you've felt you have to leave a church, I think you can't appreciate what a warm and supportive church body gives to your walk of faith.
When things go awry at your church and you see things you don't admire, etc., and it isn't fixed for too long, then you're devastated on many levels! is that what causes you to feel as you do, by any chance?
Joe and LovestoDebate..thanks for coming by. I'm with you. The guy should go. I have a friend whose sister is Catholic and the sister's working hard to change the CHURCH! Not go elsewhere, where SHE would feel more comfortable. No, she feels she's CATHOLIC and the church has to grow up and support her viewpoints! You can't make this stuff UP! I can admire her reasons and her zeal, but I could only admire her further if she was saying "Well, it's not my church anymore, I feel differently..I'll go somewhere else but I'm not trying to change people or a whole church institution because they don't agree with ME". I guess she'd suggest the Bible needs to be rewritten to reflect the times, which is pretty darned nutty..and unsettling.
Ducky "The argument for morality vs. legality." Really? Was it principles or was it fear the secularists would go after Catholics screaming "church from state!"? Come ON.
Sorry, Ducky, that you're only clarifying a point and not participating in the discussion. I'm surprised.
That point about who excommunicated him was so inconsequential as to be totally unimportant..but thanks ?
It's My Choice..I think we ALL would say one is as bad as the other!!
The point is that both are so despicable yet abortion support gets a pass.
If there's ANY confusion, I will adjust the title somehow.
Ducky's here ...Did anyone tell you how stupic (sic) you are and sound?
Concider (sic) it done.
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Ah, Michelle Bachmannmust be logging in from CPAC
I'm not generally comfortable with churches bringing pressure to bear on politicians. I don't mind people following the tenets of their religion on a personal level, but it's dangerous for the church (any church) to have political influence because they tend to ride roughshod over people who aren't in agreement with them. Even if I agree 100% with the basic premise Church A is acting upon, I think they should limit themselves to influencing their members to use the political tools available to get a change they want. Threatening to excommunicate people , shun them, ban them, reject their letter, or whatever a religion uses as a punitive measure, is crossing the line I think.
Hi, Hermit. Why can't a church excommunicate if it sees its adherents not adhering?
If the "rules" are that THAT's the ballgame ,and the adherents know it, isn't it tough for the church to be forced to commune those standing against its tenets? I'm just curious....just for conversation's sake.
Steve H. - I strongly agree with you on organized religion. I had always had my doubts about man's influence in faith, but it was confirmed when I stopped attending church last year. My faith is just as strong, and this is right for me. There are so many issues concerning this I hardly know where to begin.
Irksome, isn't it?
A "Thought Crime" is now considered more heinous and more worthy of condemnation and punishment than the actual MURDER of a completely innocent, utterly helpless (albeit nascent) human being.
The most potent form of tyranny imaginable would be a society where our very thoughts, opinions, feelings and ideas are restricted and tightly controlled.
This is why I have staged my long personal battle against taboos of ANY kind, and have in the past frequently indulged in provocative, controversial, deliberately vulgar and even obnoxious behavior.
Like Voltaire I may not agree or sympathize with many things, but I really would "defend to the death" the right of any individual to think freely and express ANY thought or idea no matter how odious.
That IS the principle on which this nation was founded. Honesty is often unattractive and truth unflattering. BUT, as Jefferson said, "I am opposed to any form of tyranny over the mind of Man."
Liberty is far more sacred than decency or agreed upon standards of "decorum."
~ FreeThinke
Hermit really "gets it." I LOVE his post.
Bravo, Hermit!
~ FreeThinke
BTW, Ducky's point about the basic reason for this man's excommunication is important. Apparently, it had nothing to do with the controversial, generally objectionable views he held on the Holocaust.
Is that right, Ducky?
If so it's an important distinction.
If Pelosi should be ex-communicated, then so, of course, should be BIDEN, who holds the same untenable position.
And by extension so should the many millions of Roman Catholics who do, indeed, quietly practice birth control --- and I AIN'T talkin' The RHYTHM SYSTEM here. ;-)
Reminds me of a very old joke once published in The Reader's Digest:
QUESTION: What do they call people who practice the Rhythm System?
ANSWER: PARENTS!
~ FreeThinke
Z, Outstanding Post.....Opinions are like a..hol. Everybody has one.........Me also. i think Religion is personal and should be held as such. Whyis it my business what church or synogoge a person attends and belives in...I personally do not believe in the doctrines of most churches...even though they are very similar. I do belived in the Bible, that it was truely sacredly inspired. I also believe that much contained there are teachings handed down before being written down by scribes. Psalms is a good example of this type of writings.. A copy of a Psalm was written on the inside of the tomb of Armeniteb,,spelling is incorrect, worshiper of the One Sun God Anyway, you get the idea...As far as birth control, I believe somewhere in Religious writings is contained the verse, "It is better to spew your seed in the belly of a Whore than to spill it on the wayside." This to me also points to procreation and anti-birth control. If a person professes to conform to a Churches teachings and cannot adhere to them they, of their own valition should desolve their affiliation with that church....To do otherwise is hypicritical,,,,I ramble....just my thoughts.....stay well...
Sue, I have had such unbelievably positive experiences with other Christians in a church that I'm sorry when I hear people haven't experienced the same thing, but I totally agree and would never disdain another opinion. I'm just so grateful I've had times when I've flown to church with anticipation and flown home with gratification!!
FT..Nobody's saying anybody can't have ANY the heck opinion or belief they want! Just don't call yourself a Catholic and be pro abortion..it just doesn't work. It's just plain silly. What's the BIG DEAL? Big something different..God speed.
Hermit's absolutely entitled to his opinion....I agree up till the point where people associate themselves with a religion, don't agree with the teachings, then get ticked off that the religion drops them! Surely, anybody can see that's just PLAIN SILLY. BE SOMETHING ELSE, right?
The religion was there first...choose a group which echoes your opinions...don't go against yours and even blaspheme it................weird\
Also, FT...the post says it was in 1988 that the bishop was excommunicated...for other reasons.
This time, it had everything to do with his ridiculously unlearned remarks about the holocaust. The article's clear.
Tapline, thanks for coming by. You're absolutely right.
Z-I don't believe that Nancy P. cares...She really beleives she is 'royalty'...
C-CS
Every Roman Catholic who votes for a Democrat, any Democrat, should be excommunicated, period.
Shang, I just don't see how one CAN be a Catholic and be pro abortion.
There are denominations which don't (sadly) really seem to care a whit about abortion....
For the Catholics I've heard of who want to change their faith to accepting abortion, I'd suggest another denomination.
But, they want all the things they love about their faith AND so terribly abuse it, as well.
That the church stands up for itself in the onslaught of insult seems to be the right thing to do.
One can't benefit by Catholic doctrine in the 'pleasant' aspects and kick it in the face for those that don't suit.
Z, I guess that's one of the things I am uncomfortable with about organized religion. It fosters a "group think". Either you accept what you are being told about what is right or wrong, or you get chucked.
I don't feel easy with any organization, religious, political, or otherwise where dissenting opinions bring down negative consequences on the dissenter. If I was in charge of the power company, I might get mad at person X because of something he did or said, but I wouldn't shut off his power. Churches tend to be less restrained.
I see what you are saying about if you join a church, you should toe the line or expect to get kicked out. But religion is so all encompassing, and casts such a wide net, that I don't see how EVERYBODY can be a team player all the time. If the preacher of a white clapboard little church in a hollow says alcohol is evil and so are the people who use it, I don't see why my drinking a beer means I'm not welcome there. That's not right.
Another thing I don't follow is that in virtually any religion, there's some potentate who can make the decision to kick you out and often that is supposed to mean when you die, you don't go to heaven. But how can a man, no matter how exalted, make such a decision for God? If God doesn't want someone in heaven, I doubt he'll worry much about what the preacher or the Pope or the Ayatollah thought about it.
So that's why I am leery of religion and the secular state getting too mixed up together. I'm not running down anyone's religion, it's just a facet of the whole issue I'm uneasy about.
Now don't you go and "cast me out"! I like your blog too much.
These kinds of problems always bring up a question in my mind. Why stay in an organization/church if you don't agree with the rules? In this case if you disagree with a basic tenet of the church, in this case, abortion, why not leave and find a church that agrees with you? Or start your own like Henry VIII.
You wouldn't join the American Legion if you thought soldiers were bloodthirsty tools of government oppression. Then why stay a member of a church that you obviously have a problem agreeing with.
Cafeteria Catholics is a great descriptor for those who pick and choose which church tenets they accept.
The Catholic church certainly isn't up for changing anything too soon. Vatican II zoomed in their real quickly, huh?
If I didn't agree with the church, I would leave. Quite simple really. This guy is just as nutty as the other Holocaust deniers in the world. I don't know that that is grounds for excommuication though.
Hermit...CAST YOU OUT? (are you NUTS? I like having you AROUND too muchXXX!)
BUT....doesn't every denomination have their own slight differences? Sure! So, if you don't like the one you're in...go to the one which backs your beliefs up, no?! That's all I"m saying.
That's what makes denominations different.
That we HAVE denominations is a whole other, interesting topic.
TOo bad, in the Body of Christ...too bad. If everyone just read the WORDS, and didn't want to position them to suit THEM, maybe we'd have no denominations..just Christianity!?? I'm so glad you came back...I like that I'm getting these kinds of conversations, not 'hit and run' comments. I LOVE this.
Man, Law & Order...as you can see, I totally agree with you on "then WHY JOIN if you don't agree?"
What I'm FASCINATED with is that maybe denying the holocaust isn't excommunication fodder. I'd LOVE to hear more on that.
Maybe that's the Catholic hierarchy getting nervous that everyone would think all Catholics (or that hierarchy) felt that way, too, and they'd be ostracized publicly, BIG TIME.
Still, it's really an awful thing to deny and it hurts people...and I guess I wouldn't want an employee of mine, for example, to be publicly saying he supports the Klan or something.... BIG time wouldn't want that.
if someone murders a pregnant woman,
he is charged with 2 murders: the woman and the baby. fair enough!
BUT if that same woman were to choose to have an abortion , then it is not murder. am i missing something here? oh yes! i am!
i forgot about a woman's right to choose to kill her baby.
therefore it's only murder if someone other than the woman kills the baby.
BEDIG
BEDIG! CUZ! I'm SO glad to have you here..and your point is SO TRUE!
I believe Scott Peterson's was charged with TWO murders.
The irony is astonishingly clear, isn't it?
Not to everyone, huh!?
My point is that even though a priest makes a comment that is demonstrably false and really outside the mainstream, if it doesn't violate a church teaching, what would be the grounds for kicking him out?
Speech is pretty hard to punish, even in the Catholic church. There are many factions among the clergy in the church. They espouse many different positions on social issues. Most make their points and move on. If however, one is in opposition to church teaching he should leave the priesthood and many have.
Among nuns there are those who espouse women in the priesthood. They make their points and move on. I admire those who wish to make change from within, but advocating change must stop when the advocacy is destructive
When is it destructive? When it tears at the fabric of the church and seeks to overturn 2,000 years of church law. I am conservative at heart. The church has always represented a safe harbor and an anchor for those of us who believe in the it. It is comforting to know that some things change very slowly, if at all.
L&O: You 'admire' those who want to make changes within? Like what changes? That surprised me. I'd love to hear what you have to say on that.... am enjoying your comments very much, thanks.
I guess I mean I think the Vatican's about had enough of media/secularists slamming them..even with pretty fair ammo, as in the case of the pedophile priests.........So, their point might be "Geeez, if we let this priest shoot his mouth off about there having been no holocaust, maybe the media will make him a cause celebre and people will think ALL CATHOLICS, including the Vatican, think this is true..after all, nobody's censored him within the church!" See what I mean?
People are SO happy to slam Christians today I can see why the Vatican might want to excommunicate on these grounds "He doesn't speak for us! That's a pretty vile accusation to make AND we don't want him representing us!"??
Forgive me if I repeat what some have said before, I just need to clarify one item for myself: The Catholic Church has two functions as I see that: (1) It is a religion and as such defines the teachings and the content and procedures of the religion. (2) It is an organization with 1+ billion members, like a very big company with all aspects of a large company, including management, finances, and marketing.
As far as I can determine, denying the holocaust has nothing to do with the religion part of this organization, but everything to do with the business aspect of it. Under this aspect, the Church has a responsibility toward its members (for the purpose of church growth and well being) to make sure that the image is in good standing. And it is under this view that the Church as business must act against any activities by its members, particularly when they are part of the management. As in any company, the measure to be taken depends on the severity of the committed activity, and can include anything from demotion to termination.
Mr.Z
Mr.Z,
Excellent points. But I must look at the church as separate from some of its members. The pedophile scandal was something that rocked me to my core. I knew some of the boys who were abused. Thank God I wasn't in that number. Some of my friends were. (See my post about growing up Catholic). They were my brothers.
I had a crises of faith at that point. But I got by it, with my dad's help, by realizing that the church was separate at times from its clergy. Humans have failings. The church didn't fail us, the humans who were entrusted with the leadership failed us.
The church's teachings are inspired and directed by God. The humans in charge have made huge mistakes. It was a tough moment for me, but I got by it.
As for "change from within," I admire people who don't bail and then start trashing an organization from the outside. If someone is willing to take the heat and try to bring about change, good for them.
I must now lay down a caveat. The church is to me, right in its teachings. I love the church and I am good with what I have learned my whole life. Having said that, the church does recognize salvation outside the church. So I'm not one of those guys who says we are right, you are wrong.
Jesus is our savior. We view him as our intercessor with God. As my priest explained it, Do you remember when you did something wrong and your dad was about to spank you? Many times my mom was the intercessor with my dad. I hid behind her until my dad cooled down. Thank God, Jesus is there for us. I need him.
Law & Order.."the church does recognize salvation outside the church"? You mean salvation as in being 'saved', going to heaven after you die, without Christ? That's interesting...how? I'd love to know.
I guess the 'change' you're talking about might be different than mine. If it's doctrine, I just simply don't understand how changing a church from within is something we should do. Leaving it and slamming it is WRONG, but changing doctrine? Pick another doctrine, why try to change the church's truth? The acquaintance I had's sister wanted to change the Catholic church into accepting women priests and abortion....you think that's something admirable to strive for??
Some members can be 'bad apples' (I'm sorry you had to go through that, and, especially, that your friends had to go through it so personally and horribly)...they do NOT represent the CHURCH in that way, those priests!! That's like saying NAZIS were Christians and, therefore, all of Christianity stinks! NO Christian could follow the Word and kill Jews!!! No Catholic priest was following his church when abusing children!
But, finally, the church did something about that. In the case of this man denying the holocaust, would the church want it TO LOOK LIKE they condoned it?
Wait a minute, though....you have a point: Were ANY of the abusive priests excommunicated?
Or are we forgiven our sins, if we repent, so the church decided their repentance was enough?
This priest who was excommunicated hasn't repented...he isn't sorry he said it, doesn't deny it, etc.
Fascinating discussion......By the way, WERE any pedophile priests excommunicated? And why no flap if they weren't?
By outside the church I meant outside the Catholic church. I didn't used to be that way. As for change from within I refer to the attempt to change rules not church teaching. Doctrines are doctrines. You can't change those. If you want them changed go to a church that agrees with you or one that allows you to make your own rules. If you believe to be divinely inspired man cannot change them. Either way doctrines don't change.
I'm with you, L&O..on all if it.
Thanks..xxx
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