(Reuters) - Muslim parents, students and civic groups are campaigning to add two of their religious holidays to the New York City public school calendar, pinning their hopes on state lawmakers after failing to win over Mayor Michael Bloomberg to the idea.
Putting Eid Ul-Fitr, a holiday marking the end of Ramadan, and Eid Ul-Adha, celebrating the end of the hajj, the pilgrimage to Mecca, on the list of official school holidays will help ease suspicion and reduce anti-Muslim sentiment nearly a decade after the September 11 attacks, they say.
Read more HERE. Do you think this is helpful? Gosh, we can't even call the Christmas Break "Christmas Break!" Will we now have Buddhist holidays and Hindu holidays and Shinto holidays and TET and...here's more from the linked article:
One muslim father says "Putting the holidays on the calendar will send a positive message to the Muslim community that you are welcome here," he said.
Bloomberg, as stated above, doesn't like the idea, which surprised me, considering he's so behind the 'sensitivity' of building a mosque close to the World Trade Center disaster. But, then I read that he says "Everybody would like to be recognized but the truth of the matter is we need more school days, not less," he said. How long before they shorten the "Winter" or "Spring" Breaks (which were CHRISTMAS and EASTER breaks for a hundred years) to accomodate for so many holidays? A friend with two children went to her school principal asking why they couldn't get a week off BEFORE Christmas as they'd like to travel to their grandparents' for the holiday or have time at home preparing. He told her the teachers say the ski lift tickets and other ski accoutrements are cheaper the week after Christmas. SO, the "Winter Break" is after 'that holiday they can't mention' instead of leading up to it.
So, you think they ought to get two school days off in the NYC schools for two muslim holidays? Maybe there should be a law that says "If a majority, twenty-five percent of the children are of that faith...then......" ?
*by the way, to get an image, I put in MUSLIM KID IMAGES and MUSLIM CHILDREN IMAGES. Try it. zilch
z
67 comments:
So much for separation of church and state.
This site has some pictures of some Muslim children. Don't know if they're free-use, though.
http://www.muslimpeacemarch.org/id7.html
The kiddos are kind of cute :)
Um. There are also some pics here:
http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2010/01/11/career-choice-of-some-muslim-children-in-britain-i-want-to-be-a-suicide-bomber/
... I don't know anything about the second site other than what came up on the google search and the listing of categories caused me to be a bit hesitant to investigate.
If there were no such thing as public schools...
How many of us "infidels" know the militant significance of Ramadan? Indeed, the battle commemorated is the battle which marked the beginning of "militant Islam."
The foregoing link is an essay I put together a few years ago.
I agree with Beamish. No public schools would be the best solution for everybody.
Otherwise I see it two ways:
- remove ANY holiday from school calendar including Christmas
- allow all holidays from all religions.
I personally opt for solution #1. It's school. Holidays can be celebrated at home.
Are people going to start claiming days off for all kinds of holidays?
that's a good idea duhkkky.
It's not about "freedom of religion," fairness, inclusiveness, diversity. or any other western concept. These are just straw dogs used to hide the true intent. This is about establishing another beachhead in the muslim agenda of establishing their worldwide caliphate. They are determined and patient. One brick at a time.
MGM in Anderson
If there were no such thing as public schools...
That probably isn't going to become a reality any time soon. But parents who don't appreciate what's being done by the schools can remove their children.
Heather
My kids miss school on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur.
"I personally opt for solution #1. It's school. Holidays can be celebrated at home."
FB, Christmas isn't just a holiday. It is an American tradition and celebration based on our beginnings and the contribution of Judeo-Christian values and tenets to the foundation of this country.
Christinanity, has take enough of a hit over the years as it is. This would be a concession that American traditions as we have known them, are not important. I think they are.
They are our identity, and I for one, don't want to submit to a bland, blurred vision of America as her former self.
Frankly, neither do I want to concede that, when you are attacked by those of a religion who identify you as infidels, that suddenly you must defer to their wishes.
Why the hell are we always so willing to bow to those who don't like the way we live, or our traditions and who demand special recognition? So now we have to compromise? Why?
Because we don't have the spine to say, "we won't change our ways, so fit in or leave".
This is just more of the tearing down of who we are, which the left has been doing and is doing with break-neck speed. The Islamists are just "here to help".
I wouldn't worry about school, they're busy gearing up to educate "THe Whole Child", which means, parents can get lost!
Pris
The Eid stamps were bad enough, but no one HAD to buy those. This is far beyond the Pale. Remember, something as simple as wind & water made the Grand Canyon. Little by little they will encroach more & more.
Silvrlady
If Albany is so stupid not to point out the budget implications of this silliness when New York is flat broke then I'm going to be surprised.
It comes to nothing but a lot of dramaturgy.
If Albany is so stupid not to point out the budget implications of this silliness when New York is flat broke then I'm going to be surprised.
It comes to nothing but a lot of dramaturgy.
How's that?
Seems to me there's a little more that ought to be considered than economic impact.
H
Thanks, Heather. Good you could find some...seems like my words should have produced some results. I'm always amazed at the bias in the images. I once Googled something very American like "American traditions" or something and got practically porno in red/white/blue!
Beamish, Faith and FB..right.
Ducky, thanks, that's exactly right.
But, what you said about budget is shown by Bloomberg's refusal.
AND HEATHER is right...this is more than budget....Budget is why I included that Bloomberg quote, it's silly to think that's the only reason for turning this down.
Muslims simply don't have the numbers to force two school days off.
MGM, sadly, you couldn't be more right. As if giving muslim children days off will make New Yorkers less 'suspicious'?? HOW?
Opus has the dignified, proper answer, a la Ducky's suggestion. Opus, I'll bet you never felt offended from singing Christmas songs in school when you were a kid, either.
ALWAYS, you're always so kind to take the time to link things here, I really appreciate that..and I DID NOT KNOW that Ramadan had anything to do with anything but the 'peace of islam' (smile)
But, ALWAYS? I couldn't read it much past the fact that the Empire St. Bldg went green in celebration of Islam.
WHAT?
Good you could find some...seems like my words should have produced some results. I'm always amazed at the bias in the images. I once Googled something very American like "American traditions" or something and got practically porno in red/white/blue!
I did have to click through the search results. But the two url's I found are an interesting study in contrast. One is a pro-Islam site. And the other is most definitely not.
H
oooh, Heather, that negative one is sad, isn't it.
Imagine the cartoons they see in palestine, too, against Israeli children...'pigs', etc. What a way to raise children.
The best group I've heard about in relation to muslims and jews is a group which takes into summer camps teens from both groups and the results have been so positive, real friendships formed. Till they go home, probably :-(
"Christmas isn't just a holiday. It is an American tradition and celebration based on our beginnings and the contribution of Judeo-Christian values and tenets to the foundation of this country."
Maybe the banning of Christmas along with Easter and every other Christian and Jewish holiday ( for one will wake up all the secular "reformed Jews" that voted for this freak "zero" ) may be the kick in the secular culture and average Americans ass that's needed to really revolt.
To say nothing of the enormous amounts of income that retailers would lose too.
So I say...Ban all religious holidays! Let Americans revolt...let states ignore the edicts of this federal government and then sit back and watch.
If it ain't the muslim with their demands that set you off...it sure as hell will be with the banning of Christmas.
We're already in a culture war...a cold civil war and definitely a religious war. It has to come to a head.
Major
"Empire St. Bldg went green in celebration of Islam."
But...didn't they just refuse to light it up in red white and blue?
Major
Hmmm.
Well, since our kids aren't learning anything in public school (other than sex) anyway, we could follow Hillary Clinton's advice: It takes a village to raise a child.
So we send all our kids to some Arabian village. Blam. Problem solved. No more public schools, no more teachers, no more teachers unions, and no more school buses belching black smoke into our greeen environment, and no more paid holidays.
Well, okay ... so when the kids come back they'll all be Muslims. Isn't that a foregone conclusion anyway?
Just asking.
oooh, Heather, that negative one is sad, isn't it.
And they are so young.
The second link represents the ugly side of Islam.
Small children being trained as soldiers:
http://www.thestar.com/news/article/172762
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1243825298183&pagename=Zone-English-News/NWELayout
It's that sort of thing that the "we need to be tolerant of Islam" folks don't seem to recognize as an inherent facet of the belief system.
The religion is not friendly to even it's own devotees.
H
"So we send all our kids to some Arabian village. Blam. Problem solved. No more public schools, no more teachers, no more teachers unions, and no more school buses belching black smoke into our greeen environment, and no more paid holidays."
Genius!!! That'll be enough to set the parasites off...once they lose their protected status as the "saviors" of our youth and we'll see that it's not at all..."about the children"!
Major
"Representative Sheila Jackson Lee (D-TX) told the NAACP this week that those who wore sheets lifted them off and are now wearing tea party clothing.
The progressive website ** This was met with great applause from the leftist crowd. **
Show Me Progress reported on her speech:
And I thank you professor very much. I’m going to be engaging you with those very powerful numbers that you have offered on what the tea party recognizes, uh, or is recognized as. Might I add my own P.S.? All those who wore sheets a long time ago have now lifted them off and started wearing [applause], uh, clothing, uh, with a name, say, I am part of the tea party. Don’t you be fooled. [voices: "That's right.", applause] Those who used to wear sheets are now being able to walk down the aisle and speak as a patriot because you will not speak loudly about the lack of integrity of this movement. Don’t let anybody tell you that those who spit on us as we were walking to vote on a health care bill for all of America or those who said Congresswoman Jackson-Lee’s braids were too tight in her hair had anything to do with justice and equality and empowerment of the American people. Don’t let them fool you on that [applause]….
Possibly...the dumbest black woman on the planet....maybe worse than Alvin Greene? Or the guy who asked if Guam would "tip over"?
Gerrymandering...quotas and AA...our "representatives".
You don't think we're in deep doo doo? With fools like this?
Major
"How old...is too old...for a seat in Congress or the Senile ...sorry Senate?"
Term limits...to shake off the incredible hold these dinosaurs have over us.
http://tinyurl.com/3a3jz2b
Major
""Representative Sheila Jackson Lee (D-TX) told the NAACP this week that those who wore sheets lifted them off and are now wearing tea party clothing."
Outrageous!
This is an orchestrated campaign. We are supposed to be intimidated and defensive. I feel neither. The Tea Party movement has nothing to be defensive about.
We just go ahead with our activism, and making ourselves be heard. No apologies, and no defensive explanations.
If the NAACP want's to be relevant, surely they can think of something more positive than vicimization and accusations. They're allowing themselves to be used for political reasons.
Pris
"If the NAACP want's to be relevant, surely they can think of something more positive than vicimization and accusations"
Pris...you have and always will be a respected and wonderful contributor / voice around here....but surely you jest? No mock or or an attempt to put you down, please. However...like most of us...we / you overlook the facts that will always be against us who are willing to speak out. Tea partiers are the national joke...the butt of criticism and scorn. Why? You know why. We are not allowed under any circumstances to voice OUR DISDAIN...TO VOICE OUR DISGUST.....TO VOICE OUR ANGER...about the direction of this country. WE...ARE ANGRY, RACIST WHITE interlopers....We must be silenced.
Trust me Ms. Prisc....we are not allowed the privelege of our 2nd amendment rights...nor the 14th amendment...nor the 1st amendment...nor the 4th amendment.
So....hush up...before we rattle some cages. We must not do that..OK?
Major
Major
MAJOR, are you KIDDING ME? That's not true, is it?
They lit it up RED for Communist China's anniversary of Communism, remember?
Did they really refuse red/white/blue??
and yes TERM LIMITS are SO SO IMPORTANT but those in term won't vote for it!!
Pris, I don't know WHY we're bending SO MUCH to islam today..it's positively wild.
As I've said here before...
"What do you have to do around here to get respect, kill 3000 people?"
It wasn't till after 9/11 that muslim butchers could stay working and still refuse to cut pork,
Muslim kids demanded foot washing basins at universities and got them, muslim cabbies could refuse alcohol or dogs in their cabs..
WHY? Why did it only start AFTER 9/11?
Sheila Jackson Lee can go to........."Hartfield, Heresford and HAMPSHIRE!"
"Why did it only start AFTER 9/11?"
Because it was their call to Mecca? Allah? Their clarion call to domination? A call to arms? A call to domination and the weakness of the WEST TO RESPOND...BECAUSE OF OUR ASININE ATTEMPTS AT PC?
Because or our inability to react forcefully? Because they know of our "ROE'S"? BECAUSE THEY KNOW OF OUR INABILITY....to kill them regardless of politics?
Because they know....we are...weak?
Because they know that we'll sacrifice American lives on the altar of PC? Because they know...the Generals wil not allow our troops to obliterate them...even though we have overwhelming fire power.
Ask...ducky and his ilk.
Major
Major,
I'm not overlooking anything. I agree that's what they want and why they do what they do.
And we have to do what we have to do. I'm just saying we can't allow ourselves to be cowed. I can't stand it when I hear perfectly decent people defending themselves when they've done nothing to have to defend.
I just refuse to be an apologist when there's nothing to apologize for.
Besides, Rattling cages is long past overdue!
Ms Prisc
Major-you're tempting me to have an etymology minute here with the senile/senate quote. Both come from the Latin senex, meaning old man. I guess sometimes the word fits.
tio
tio...'know where the word GOSSIP came from?
Z, anything to do with gospel? I'll let you enlighten me while I mull some things over re other comments post.
tio
It's the first word they used for GODPARENTS before the 16th century!? (just learned that, so I thought I'd show off!) :-)
will help ease suspicion and reduce anti-Muslim sentiment nearly a decade after the September 11 attacks, they say.
I got a warm feeling when I read this.
Z, I like the idea of term limits but wonder how much they would help. Would you end up with a huge political franchise where the party boss calls the shots? So maybe a George Soros picks a candidate who serves a couple terms in the Senate. The Soros figure calls the shots. The candidate runs out of eligibility, and then the Soros figure gets a new candidate to work as his middle-man.
It's hard to imagine Ted Kennedy ever losing his seat in an election, but a Republican won that seat after Kennedy died. That makes me think term limits would do some good. I think I'd be pleased, but not ecstatic if such an ammendment passed.
tio
Chuck, so true :-) I'm SO happy for everyone concerned!
Tio...Sure, but we have George Soros (in my opinion) running things as they are, anyway!
No, I think there'd be less "you scratch my back, I"ll scratch yours" and a lot more hard work put into helping the country if people knew they only had four years, let's say. They wouldn't be campaigning for their next term as they do now, either, WHILE they're in office.
Sure, the party boss situation's not a good one, but it's there NOW.
At least anybody with any integrity might try to shirk it and even expose it if he felt he had no nest to pad ....so to speak (is that a mixed metaphor?!)
So how important is it to foster a national identity? I tend to side with libertarians on a lot of issues. It's kind of a compromise. I think everyone should do A. You think everyone should do B. So we'll compromise: I'll do A and you do B.
Similar deal with schools. We can't agree on what should be taught--so we revert to freedom of choice.
But are the schools where a lot of culture is taught? For example certain songs bind us together, but you can't prove "My Country 'Tis of Thee" is a great song but it's one of the things that helps identify ourselves as Americans.
Take the Civil War. No, really, take the Civil War (oh, wait, that line doesn't work there). But you hear it was fought over slavery or states rights or tariffs. Wasn't it the fact that you had two distint cultures a main cause. The Southerners didn't think of the Northerners as "us" and vise versa?
So should the govt play a role in establishing a national identity? I think quintessential libertarian Ludwig von Mises believed there should be no divisions of countries.
I'm more questions than answers here. Somebody else figure it out and get back to me.
tio
I think it started after 9/11 because as a nation we've had the wrong understanding of 9/11 spiritually. 9/11 was God's judgment on America. He used the jihadists for that purpose as He has always used various peoples in history to punish others that have come due for it.
Throughout the OT you see examples of enemies triumphing over Israel where it is clearly said that it is because of Israel's sins that this is happening. Then Israel's enemies are punished in their turn. I think I can dig up scripture to show this if asked. We aren't Israel but there is a lesson about God's workings for all nations in Israel's experience.
We did not heed the warning. Instead of a call to repentance and a return to God, our President called Islam "a religion of peace" and defiled the National Cathedral with prayers from an imam and other nonChristian leaders. Instead of repenting and seeing God's hand in it, the nation sang God Bless America.
I did hear a few pastors on the radio call it God's judgment, but a very few -- the majority were claiming we can't know the meaning of such an event, that God's ways are mysterious, that He loves us and feels our pain and so on. Utter claptrap at such a time.
Lincoln had the good sense to know that we have to be on God's side or we can't count on His blessings. Other Presidents had the same good sense and even called for days of fasting and repentance and prayer for the nation when we faced a crisis.
We did not repent as a nation so judgment is continuing in the form of growing Muslim influence and popularity, in the form of the wrong people getting power in the government, in the form of increasing criminality and thuggery in high places, in the form of the erosion of our institutions more and more.
I understand the feelings of Major and others, I understand the frustration. Every day I cringe and cry over some new enormity that tears at our nation's safety and sanity. It's easy to want to retaliate, it is all so unjust. I think if it does come to violence that too will be part of God's judgment.
I don't know if it is too late to repent, to fulfill 2 Chronicles 7:14 or not about humbling ourselves and seeking His face so that He might heal our land. I know more of that needs to be done than is being done. I know it is the only solution, and it would have to be done by the vast majority of Christians in concert at this point. Millions on our knees daily, even hours on end where possible. Yes, this depth of praying is possible, though only few do it with such dedication and it takes practice to get there. Asking God to reveal the nation's sins so we can acknowledge them and deal with them. Hours on end. I know it is the solution. I don't see it happening but I pray for it nevertheless. We would see a miraculous turnaround that would make God's enemies take notice, that would change the nation, that would convert millions. Yes, millions.
Sorry about the repeat posts. It kept seeming to refuse to post at all.
tio, 'national identity'?
Well..whatever you're replying to doesn't matter; your question's a good one.
I think compromise is a good thing except, lately, it's WE who are compromising and muslims are taking A AND B. For instance, the building of the new huge mosque in NYC right near the Towers....this school holiday push, the way the news people leave out muslim names in news articles if a muslim killed someone,the way Muslims are pushing for things they were able to live with before 9/11...then we have a president dumping Israel in the mud and taking "islamist terror" out of reports and things, you know about all of that..
There are certain things which fit America's national identity and school districts with muslim holidays seem amazing to me. Obviously, when muslims are reaching the level of 25% of the population or something, this should be revisited (God forbid)but....
Faith, sorry you're having trouble with the posting, thanks for the apology.
As for repentance and prayer...if anybody's read and been changed by reading the Bible, they couldn't not agree with you. It's all there...we're like a country in the O.T. right now which has turned from Him...There is NO WAY God could be happy with America today..not with the utter immorality, not with many of the church teachings, the turning from Him in all public and private ways...no WAY.
Yes, we need prayer...BIG time.
If there were no such thing as public schools...
That probably isn't going to become a reality any time soon. But parents who don't appreciate what's being done by the schools can remove their children.
But still have to pay tax assessments (usually on property) to pay for the public schools at the same time they're paying tuition at a private school or home-schooling. And worse, people without children have to pay these taxes.
Can't really say we have private property in this country if you are required to pay annual taxes on it. You can lose your "private" property if you don't pay the local government-sponsored extortion racket.
Two many people want to pull government to the left or to the right.
How about down?
If there were no such thing as public schools...
That probably isn't going to become a reality any time soon. But parents who don't appreciate what's being done by the schools can remove their children.
But still have to pay tax assessments (usually on property) to pay for the public schools at the same time they're paying tuition at a private school or home-schooling. And worse, people without children have to pay these taxes.
Can't really say we have private property in this country if you are required to pay annual taxes on it. You can lose your "private" property if you don't pay the local government-sponsored extortion racket.
Too many people want to pull government to the left or to the right.
How about down?
Beamish "Down" is what we're getting NOW
I got a warm feeling when I read this.
Yeah Chuck ... when you get to be my age, you get used to having those sudden warm feelings.
"Putting the holidays on the calendar will send a positive message to the Muslim community that you are welcome here..."
Why?
What have muslims brought to the world that we cannot make ourselves, from what i've seen in the last decade alone, various muslims brought death, murder and destruction to the world.
I don't know about the rest of you, but i ain't stupid enough to welcome death, murder and destruction.
Too many people want to pull government to the left or to the right.
How about down?
Beamish,
I tend to agree with you that education of children isn't a matter the govt needs to oversee.
Well, I guess it *might* make a difference if someone is trying to engineer a society to certain pre-determined specifications. Then, it would be important to make sure that everyone learned the same things and became equally dependent upon govt for certain basic needs.
Not entirely against things like localized learning co-ops, as long as parental authority and responsibility is not usurped by that of the state.
Part of the reason our society is such a mess is due to the breakdown of the nuclear family unit at it's base. The State mandated and directed form of education has done a lot to contribute to the destruction of the American family as there is little time left during the week for people to build and maintain meaningful relationships at home.
The more chaotic a society is, the more likely the need for external govt oversight. If Americans want less civil government interference, we need to strive to be more accountable as individuals. And that means parents need to behave like adults and take seriously our God-given duty to train our own children--not so much in the realm of academics, but in character and a love of what is honorable.
Ultimately, this isn't even about the content of a given scholastic curriculum, taxes or private property, but rather, who owns the souls of the nation's children?
If it is NOT the state, then we'd better stop rendering unto Caesar that which belongs to God.
H
Beamish "Down" is what we're getting NOW
Not in the sense I was using the term. "Down" is less government power. "Up" is more government power.
Left and right are simply "how" government uses its power.
Beamish, I see now...thanks.
Heather, when you say "The more chaotic a society is, the more likely the need for external govt oversight,"...some are worried that the chaos we have developing now (phony calls of 'racism', the harm that is inevitable to our health care system now that the bill passed, rampant illegal migration with a seemingly purposeful ignoring of doing something effective, etc, is doing just that: BIG GOVERNMENT IS WAITING...where else will people go when so many have been trained to need to go somewhere outside themselves?
Good point, Z.
Interestingly, deliberate, manufactured incidences of lawless behavior seems to have played into the establishment of several totalitarian societies. There eventually comes a point when people are welcoming an offer of "strong government" that promises to bring back a sense of order--even if it means the citizens become virtual slaves. :(
The thought keeps returning...
Is the Lord humbling us in order to bring us into a place of national healing or is He going to allow us to continue to tear ourselves apart and reap the horrible consequences?
H
I didn't say ban the holidays. I said don't celebrate them at school. Which doesn't mean kids can't have vacation. And if some kids need to take their religious holidays by not going to school once in a while so be it. Maybe each kid should be allowed a few religious holidays that he/she can take as he/she wishes. And we're all set.
Religion is a private matter. Not celebrating AT *public* schools doesn't mean the destruction of the foundations of the country, I think.
FB, some religious holidays legitimately call for members of that faith to be in synagogue or wherever....Christians have forgotten the importance of being in churches to honor and worship God, mostly, so we see them taking off on holiday when they used to go to church. Not a message children should get.
And then we complain that Presidents' birthday holidays have become nothing more than LINEN SALES?
Heather, that's the question of the century, of course. It's what plays on all our minds....think we CAN get into national healing without repentance? I doubt it. And we sure don't see much repentance.
Not a message children should get.
I don't think it's the job of *public* schools to teach the importance of celebrating religious holidays. It's the job of the parents if they opt for it.
That's where I'm a Libertarian and may class with social and christian conservatives.
Holy smoke, FB, nobody (least of all ME) suggests schools should teach religious ANYTHING. Just don't let them ignore or belittle the big religions of America while bowing to the miniscule in size.
The "message" I meant about kids not going to religious services was one their PARENTS should give them, not the schools. !! I digressed!
That's where I'm a Libertarian and may class with social and christian conservatives.
Libertarianism doesn't necessarily clash with Christianity. While we respect civil government as a legitimate , God-ordained realm of authority, believers also are motivated to maintain a high-functioning, conscious level of personal responsibility.
The main variance would be in our view of the main purpose of liberty.
H
"Religion is a private matter. Not celebrating AT *public* schools doesn't mean the destruction of the foundations of the country, I think."
FB, I agree that religion is a private matter. Even when I was young religion wasn't taught in school. However, the little ones made decorations, or greeting cards, etc. There may have been a Christmas tree in the office, or classrooms and always a Christmas program with carols sung.
Years later, the Christmas programs were done at night on after school time.
Today, there are actually some schools who disallow children wearing red and green outfits to school, during Christmastime. Ridiculous and punitive, IMO.
The school calendar is mainly focused on days off and dates of school functions. None of which is a celebration of Christmas, and Christmas vaation is now called "winter break".
Maybe somewhere there are still Christmas programs but not where my grandson went to school, which is in my area.
If a student is excused from school to observe a religious tradition, I have no problem with that.
But, as I said, Judeo-Christian tradition is an American
tradition, and Christmas is a federal Holiday.
It's woven into our heritage, so, in this instance, as I said, if one can't accept this, or fit in, he can leave.
We've given up too much as it is.
If I chose to live in another country, I can't imagine demanding a country-wide exception and recognition for my religious preference.
I would consider being free to practice my religion, as a plus and leave well enough alone.
Pris
A libertarian Christian perspective is:
The government should not do to others what the government should not do to you.
Equal protection under the law is covered under that, as well as many other Christian principles held in mind when our nation was founded.
Pris "If I chose to live in another country, I can't imagine demanding a country-wide exception and recognition for my religious preference." Particularly if any of my ilk had committed such murder and then continued to threaten every corner of the globe, right!?
Beamish, Heather...I don't see where libertarian and Christian tenets would at ALL conflict...
Your line about gov't is a really good one, Beamish (as usual)
Z,
I wouldn't say that libertarian and Christian tenets necessarily conflict, but can under a theocratic government. Libertarianism and conservatism does conflict where conservatives seek to use the sphere of government to promote cultural or religious specificities.
Take the isue of abortion for example. Anti-abortion arguments on religious grounds tend to go no where with libertarians, but you can make headway with libertarians with an anti-abortion argument based on scientific and human rights grounds without ever invoking religion.
Libertarians and conservatives in general want the same things, but have different maps to get there. Libertarians represent the wall of seperation between church and state over representing either church or state, where conservatives can represent church interests and liberals can represent state interests.
Everyone's mileage differs of course, but that's the point. Libertarianism is not about conformity to anything but individuality over group / collective coercion. The groups can be left or right individuals, and libertarians thusly can be left or right.
The greatest unification of right-wing libertarians and right-wing conservatives happened with the election and re-election of Ronald Reagan as President under the principle known as fusionism.
I'm a fusionist.
Libertarianism and conservatism does conflict where conservatives seek to use the sphere of government to promote cultural or religious specificities.
I'd tend to agree on that point and have often thought conservative Christians have pushed too far into the political realm in trying to effect moral change via legislation. Of course our laws should reflect morality --but I think maybe the CC's have often put too much emphasis on the desire to change the laws while missing the need for the corresponding change in people's hearts.
A person can be a libertarian and not be a Christian. And many would still treat their neighbors well.
Libertarians represent the wall of seperation between church and state over representing either church or state, where conservatives can represent church interests and liberals can represent state interests.
Hm. I'd disagree somewhat on the first half of that statement, but it's because I see man to be an inherently religious creature and don't believe it's possible to truly separate one's religious belief from the way he thinks and behaves. Religion has always been a determining factor in any governmental system. Sometimes it's more obvious than at others.
H
Beamish"I wouldn't say that libertarian and Christian tenets necessarily conflict, but can under a theocratic government." Well, that's for sure but we don't have a theocratic gov't.
And yes, I agree on the anti-abortion issue.
Heather..Part of Christians pushing 'too far' is that the left's started pushing them. I've thought a lot about this and most Christians haven't changed on abortion or gay marriage....they've always been against both....it's the change, these 250 years since our founding based on Judeo Christian tenets, which came so suddenly and is pushing so hard.
I, too, believe you can't take religion out of any gov't be it from strong to very subtle influence. When we go into a voting booth, most of us can't help but be 'informed' by our faith and vote accordingly.
Libertarians represent the wall of seperation between church and state over representing either church or state, where conservatives can represent church interests and liberals can represent state interests.
Hm. I'd disagree somewhat on the first half of that statement, but it's because I see man to be an inherently religious creature and don't believe it's possible to truly separate one's religious belief from the way he thinks and behaves. Religion has always been a determining factor in any governmental system. Sometimes it's more obvious than at others.
I'm just saying I have to get off the conservative train when it starts heading towards "government should do X because 'God's will' is Y."
I'm a libertarian and a Christian, and I'm pretty sure God's got the objective of His will covered by Himself. He created the universe and everything in it. Legislation here or there isn't going to promote or subvert Him or His will, and it's rather hubristic to assume so.
Z,
Part of Christians pushing 'too far' is that the left's started pushing them. I've thought a lot about this and most Christians haven't changed on abortion or gay marriage....they've always been against both....it's the change, these 250 years since our founding based on Judeo Christian tenets, which came so suddenly and is pushing so hard.
I, too, believe you can't take religion out of any gov't be it from strong to very subtle influence. When we go into a voting booth, most of us can't help but be 'informed' by our faith and vote accordingly.
Oh, the push back against Christianity predates the founding of the United States by around 1800 years, and well before illiterates were seated on the left side of the French Estates General.
I'd dare say the left came about as a "revolution" against the excesses done in the name of Christianity by the extant syncretic polytheism of Catholic Rome, with all the excesses of lobbing off heads in guillotines in the name of human rights.
In that context, Left and Right is a battle over who holds the legally sanctioned executioner's axe.
I'm just saying I have to get off the conservative train when it starts heading towards "government should do X because 'God's will' is Y."
I gotcha. I think we agree on that point.
Although, those within the realm of civil govt are accountable to God for the way they "rule". And, in our society, "we the people" have historically had a hand in the way we are governed.
Ultimately, all men are called to repent of prideful resistance to being governed by God. I don't see any harm in making that known even at the federal level.
I'm a libertarian and a Christian, and I'm pretty sure God's got the objective of His will covered by Himself. He created the universe and everything in it. Legislation here or there isn't going to promote or subvert Him or His will, and it's rather hubristic to assume so.
True. God's unchangeable and we're not altering His plan any.
I tend to think the confusion for many Christians occurs in the realm of obedience rather than in an attempt to change what He's already decreed.
On the other hand, the boundary of human arrogance seems to have no limit....
I think when Christians want to obey the Word of God and they're stuck living in a society which doesn't feel that way, and even speaking for them (so to say) by codifying things they find against the Word, there is a tendency to push back and say "We've had enough"
In the O.T., God sent armies, as I say over and over again here....to fight.. So, did he NEED them to win His battles or is he testing them to see if they'll do His will?
What's happening NOW?
His will "WILL BE DONE..." no matter what.
To see an American Christian body not fighting somewhat for upholding what we can see from Scripture is HIS WILL is sad...to see them fight elicits screams of CHURCH AND STATE! even from Christians.
This is a very tough one.....probably been in the cards since God knew each hair on ALL our heads.
So, while we're trying to pass the 'test'.....we're bombarded with belittlement, maligning, and ugliness toward our faith. Also prophesied.
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