Monday, March 26, 2012

Obama and Trayvon Martin

I read THIS ARTICLE about Obama's remarks which include  ".....comparing the boy to a son he doesn't have and calling for American "soul searching" over how the incident occurred."    His words made me wonder about something I've thought over the last few years.

There have been so many Black on Black killings by kids in Chicago, L.A., and many other cities over the last 3 1/2 years of his presidency and he's not spoken out as far as I can find.  I've often wondered why he wouldn't use those as 'teaching moments', times he could ask all kids to to leave gangs, to do better in school, to not put themselves in positions like this, etc.   But, he used this Hispanic/White "versus" Black killing so poignantly, saying this kid could be the son he never had.  Why this situation and not others?

There are so many more Black/Black killings than Hispanic/White killings......I so wish he'd appear more even handed and that he'd try much harder to get particularly Black kids off the streets, away from weapons, encouraging them to do well in school (as his own son would presumably have done), etc. etc.

Is this a teaching moment he missed and is he doing a little (may I say) race baiting viz. this take on the killing in Florida?    What's your take?  Am I off base?

As a friend emailed, then people take to the streets in hoodies, though it's now come to be known as gang attire and maybe what provoked Trayvon's death............wassup?  Good idea?

Thanks..
z

134 comments:

Lone Ranger said...

Last weekend, 10 people were shot to death and at least 33 wounded in Obama's adopted hometown of Chicago. One of the dead was a six-year-old girl. I wonder if she looked like Malia or Sasha. Why aren't the Reverend Al and the Reverend Jesse there? Because they have spent a lifetime stirring up racial tensions to line their pockets. They don't care about black-on-black violence.

When seven grown men were killed in Chicago on St. Valentine's Day of 1929, it made not only the front pages but the history books. It was called a massacre. More people than that - men, women and children - are killed every week in Chicago and they barely make the news. Now, THAT is racism!

beamish said...

You can hear the recored 911 calls at the Treyvon Martin article on Wikipedia.

Treyvon Martin was casing houses and entering and stopping in people's yards in a gated community neighborhood he did not live in.

He attacked the neighborhood watch commander who was monitoring his behavior and tracking his movements through people's yards.

This was not a sidewalk shooting. Treyvon Martin died in the back yard of a house he was casing out to burglarize either then or later, after attacking a witness to his suspicious behavior who turned out to be armed.

This shooting is a tragedy that can only by rectified by putting George Zimmerman's face on Mount Rushmore.

beakerkin said...

Lets divide this up

Obama owes his career to dividing people. He was a huge fan of an off the map Law Professor and was a member of a racist Church for two decades.

Mr B.

People who case houses tend to have burglar tools. There were no tools on Martin.

The fact that someone is exhibiting unusual behaviors does not mean they are criminal. If indeed this is what Martin was doing than simply identifing himself as the neighborhood watchman and engaging in banter would have got Martin to move on.

None of us know what happened and an investigation and or trial may be needed.

One thing I can tell you from working with law enforcement is that it is not something anyone can do. Certain people are ill suited for the task by temperment or lack of judgement. People who do these watches should work in pairs and recieve formal training
from the authorities.

Rita said...

I read this while the news was talking about some local "Trayvon Martin Walk For Justice".

Frankly I think they should call it "Trayvon Martin Rush to Judgement".

All the facts are not in, but we must suddenly have marches all over the US because it's good for Al Sharpton's business.

In the meantime, we have FIVE black teenagers shot along the canal of Indianapolis one night last week. They arrested a black 16 year old two days ago.

Where is the march for those five kids?

Just as you said Z, there are many more incidents like we had.

Sharpton and his ilk are worse than the ambulance chasers. They smell money in the air and this kind of story is exactly what he lives for.

One blog I read had a commenter from Florida. He indicated George Zimmerman was bleeding and injured.

I don't know if that is true any more than I know Zimmerman was a racist looking to kill a kid.

So, without all the facts, we have once again turned some tragic incident into a national outrage without all the facts.

In the meantime I must have missed the news reports of Obama calling for an investigation into the Indianapolis shootings.

But Zimmerman has already been convicted by the court of Racial Tension.

beamish said...

People who case houses tend to have burglar tools. There were no tools on Martin.

Sure there were. Eyes, brain, memory of what he saw going up in people's yards and exploring access points and escape routes...

He was familiarizing himself with other people's property, from within their property. Why?

He was NOT walking down the public sidewalk minding his own business. If some stranger came into my yard, nosing around, looking over my property, leering into my home's windows... I would not assume they were there to sing Christmas carols.

sue hanes said...

Z - No - you are not off base on this - and my take on this - is this:

And that is that President Obama was elected to TRY to take care of the Country's many problems - something which I Believe he Really HAS been trying to do.

He was not hired to be a glorified social worker - or even to work for the Cause of young Black men.

But because he IS President of the United States - he can speak out on any subject he chooses - when he chooses - and he chose this travestiy to speak out on - at this time.
~~~

and lucky you - Z. Lone Ranger has never commented on MY Blog - I'm jealous. :[

Always On Watch said...

Trayvon Martin was on suspension from school at the time he was killed. Surely, Obama knows that. After all, the President is privy to a lot of "inside" information.

This Trayvon Martin case has been ramped up. Expect riots -- no matter what the grand jury decides.

Always On Watch said...

Beamish,
Treyvon Martin was casing houses and entering and stopping in people's yards in a gated community neighborhood he did not live in.

Got a link for that?

I'm not doubting you, but a link would be most useful.

Always On Watch said...

Perhaps Obama is setting the stage for martial law and the suspension of the 2012 elections?

Ducky's here said...

Here's the critical point. Zimmerman kills the kid and there was NO INVESTIGATION?

Got it? NO INVESTIGATION. They ask Zimmerman a leading question, "where you threatened", he answers "yes" and that's it.

Now I know that someone wearing a hoodie is going to scare you silly, z, so you may not see an issue here.

Always On Watch said...

Ahem! Take a look!

Chuck said...

Z, not surprisingly I wrote on this late last night ;)

I had a bit of a different take on this. I think with what is going on down there, the NBPP and Louis Farrakhan, this all getting ready to blow up - and blow up in Obama's face. I think his adviser was starting the job of walking back his comments on the case.

Chuck said...

AOW, I think you are right on the riots. This is a riot looking for an excuse.

As to your link, that is interesting.

Some of it can be explained away. A lot of kids flash gang symbols and talk street, they're called wannabes and have a youthful fascination for the street culture. It's idiotic but harmless. It's the reason rap music has the wide spread appeal it does.

At the same time, there is a lot to it.

It's also fascinating in that it is, once again, a case study in how the fringe media controls the conversation in this country. You will not see any of this on the news, even if it were proven true. The whole story would just disappear once it became evident that they could no longer blame the "white Hispanic".

Chuck said...

And finally, and yet again, Duck...

Here's the critical point. Zimmerman kills the kid and there was NO INVESTIGATION?

Back this up.

There were not charges, this does not mean there was not an investigation.

Are you unable to conceive of the notion that the guy may be innocent? He could actually be the victim of an assault and was acting in self defense.

Your statement is an excellent example of why this thing is turning into a circus down there.

Always On Watch said...

If what I found this morning is accurate, something very ugly is afoot right now.

Always On Watch said...

Beak said:

None of us know what happened and an investigation and or trial may be needed.

I say:

A trial won't make a smidgen of difference. The media and other are manipulating this story -- and have taken control of the narrative!

Always On Watch said...

Chuck,
I now believe that Trayvon Martin is something and someone other than being portrayed in the media.

Zimmerman has already been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion. If the grand jury finds that Zimmerman acted in self-defense, this summer is going to rock and roll in the streets.

Always On Watch said...

Beamish,
If some stranger came into my yard, nosing around, looking over my property, leering into my home's windows... I would not assume they were there to sing Christmas carols.

Indeed!

I feel it my bones: this Trayvon Martin story is a scam.

Bunkerville said...

There was going to be something used to suspend elections as AOW suggested might be a possibility. This happened to be what is being used to divide us once again. Once the Black Panthers got involved, it was a settled deal. Great comments.

Chuck said...

AOW, don't get me wrong - I have thought this case has stunk from the beginning. My point is that I have teenagers and kids also like to act "gangsta". I see real gang-bangers in my work in the ER. I tell the kids that if they saw a real one they would piss their pants ;)

My biggest problem is that there is a lot of jumping to conclusions by a lot of people.

My gut is that Zimmerman was assaulted and shot in self defense. But we cannot know this until, there is an investigation.

The real question here is this - the US Justice Department is investigating it now. Taken their stance on the 2008 NBPP case, does anyone here doubt what they will find when they are done "investigating" this shooting.

Always On Watch said...

Duck,
With the Stand Your Ground Law, I'm not sure if an investigation is required. A cursory investigation but not a thorough one.

Always On Watch said...

Chuck,
My point is that I have teenagers and kids also like to act "gangsta".

Well, acting and dressing gangsta may not be safe -- particularly after dark and when one is not his own property.

It is a FACT that hoodies are used as a sort of disguise.

The Debonair Dudes World said...

Maybe we need a Hoodie Summit?

Sam Huntington said...

The leftists can ignore Lone Ranger’s comment if they wish, but the fact is he is spot on target. No one is more adept at racism than Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. No one is more proficient at killing black people than other black people —thanks to law that allows bad guys to have firearms, while denying them to law-abiding citizens. I prefer the “stand your ground” law, to the “run and hide until they find you and kill you” doctrine.

IMO, this kids parents enabled this sort of behavior and perhaps even encouraged it. Rule #1 whenever anything bad happens to black people, “Play the victim card.” Has anyone ever noticed how often this happens? What kind of parent names their child ‘Trayvon?” The same kind of people that would also consider Talin, Tameron, Taye, Taylan, Terell, Terris, Tion, Travanis, Travaughn, Travon, Trece, Trejean, and Barack. The names for girls are equally stupid.

“Scam” is the right word …

Always On Watch said...

Sam,
IMO, this kids parents enabled this sort of behavior and perhaps even encouraged it.

I agree.

I'd like to know why Martin had been suspended from school for 10 days. Such a long suspension isn't doled out for just anything!

Always On Watch said...

And what was Martin doing while suspended? Traveling with his father and allowed to cruise on over to a convenience store? What kind of suspension is that?

Lisa said...

AOW look at that you did your own investigation which thanks to the rush to judgment leftists we are all forced to do that now. I had a feeling that picture was not recent and you proved me correct plus I also heard that Trayvon Martin was 6'3" another media misconception.
I think Obama should not be commenting without knowing all the facts because it doesn't help but it makes it worse like he's taking "sides" like he did in the Professor Gates case. If Bush had injected himself in that manner without the facts we'd still be hearing about it.
Let's remember too about the Duke Lacrosse case how the accuser was portrayed as some Innocent victim without knowing the facts and in the meantime those boy's college reputations were destroyed.
What we need to hear for the president is about black on black crime and the Black Panthers lynch mob that is brewing.
This is progress? Progressive is a BS name when in actuality all they want to do is take us backward.

Ducky's here said...

A kid with no criminal or violent history gets shot down and the bigots are crawling around like roaches.

No concern that there is a law which makes it virtually impossible to convict on an unprovoked shooting if the shooter states he felt threatened.

Small price to pay when The Ladies Who Lunch feel threatened by hoodies, correct z?

Scotty said...

Ducky said: Here's the critical point. Zimmerman kills the kid and there was NO INVESTIGATION?

Got it? NO INVESTIGATION. They ask Zimmerman a leading question, "where you threatened", he answers "yes" and that's it.


As the Sanford police department was getting all the heat, there WAS and investigation and guess what Duck, when papers were filed with the attorneys, it was suggested by the Sanford police department that manslaughter charges be brought against Zimmerman....but of course you won't hear that as it doesn't fit anyone's narrative that is controlling this whole thing.

Silverfiddle said...

Apparently, all black people look alike to Obama...

Scotty said...

BTW, if you haven't heard, Martin's family has filed a civil action against the HOA(home owners association) where Martin was shot.....interesting, before anyone has been found guilty of anything!

Lisa said...

A kid with no criminal or violent history gets shot down and the bigots are crawling around like roaches.

This is exactly why people are rallying because of the s-- stirring left. Of course Zimmerman is being portrayed as a "white" Hispanic speaking of bigots.

Lisa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lisa said...

Small price to pay when The Ladies Who Lunch feel threatened by hoodies, correct z?

Ducky nice try but the demographic of "hoodies" is mainly worn by Young black men ages 15-30 to make themselves look like thugs and criminals.
They are even banned from wearing them in certain places of business because anyone who lives in the real world knows they are used to hide ones' identity ,but being an ignorant liberal you either know this and just like to stir the pot or you live in such a bubble
of elitist you are oblivious but I believe you know it and just like to stir the pot.

Sam Huntington said...

Was Trayvon Martin a minor? Probably not, because according to Wikipedia, “He was visiting his father and his father's fianc√©e, Brandi Green, at her rented townhome in Sanford, Florida, on the day he was killed, after being suspended from school for 10 days. According to his English teacher, Michelle Kypriss, ‘He was suspended because he was late too many times.’ His father said the suspension was because he was in an unauthorized area on school property, but he declined to offer more details. Trayvon Martin had no criminal record.”

He apparently was not a minor; otherwise, Wikipedia could not legally publish this sort of information. I suppose we can say that Trayvon was “tried as an adult.” There are consequences for unseemly behavior, which includes attempting to intimidate a night watchman.

The information printed by Wikipedia is suspect. For example, who knew school suspension resulted from unauthorized absences from school? It usually results from serious infractions, such as assault, threatening teachers, or becoming millionaires while selling drugs to fellow students, and first-degree murder.

Notwithstanding Trayvon’s criminal status, Ms. Kypriss has probably violated federal statutes by releasing information surrounding Trayvon’s suspension because teachers may not discuss such things with public media. Apparently, however, she was lying because Trayvon’s father refuted her story. Trayvon was caught burglarizing school property, and this validates an earlier comment by Beamish.

The claim that Trayvon had no criminal record is laughable. The court routinely sequesters legal documents when they involve anyone under the age of 18, so there is no way that Ducky can make that claim. I rather think that what we are really discussing here is timing. Trayvon Martin was on a wrong track, and the people who might have saved him —his parents— were negligent. Zimmerman pulled the trigger, but his parents killed him.

Z said...

Beamish, "This shooting is a tragedy that can only by rectified by putting George Zimmerman's face on Mount Rushmore."
What a mind you have :-)
I'm not sure there's evidence he was casing...is it true he was staying with someone who lived there? Did he have a history of burglary?


Lone Ranger...a 6 yr old little girl? how awful. And yes, WHY didn't Obama make something about that? Because it wasn't a white person who killed her.
Excellent point about the St V Day massacre. Thanks.

Rita, I love the "Rush to judgment" etc...excellent.
Yes, I have heard Zimmerman was definitely hurt.

Sue, I'm delighted to have the Lone Ranger come by....
I'm glad you think Obama's doing wonderful things for this country. Any comment I might make about your stance, however, would be too unkind. 'nuff said :-)

AOW...suspension? Hmm.
The media's only shown photos of the boy that make him look like a clean cut kid. Imp has pictures he linked yesterday that make him look like a punk. interesting.

Ducky, are you afraid of hoodies? Why would you suggest I am? How stupid! There was and is investigation...sorry about that.
Do you think ANY OF US would say there shouldn't be an investigation? Again, your stupid little diversions with scary hoodies doesn't work.

SO, tell us, before you disappear because you always do when I ask something you can't answer: WHY DO YOU THINK OBAMA NEVER USES BLACK ON BLACK CRIME TO HAVE A TEACHING MOMENT?

Chuck, good point to Ducky, and otherwise (and of course you posted on it, I keep telling you we were separated at birth!!).
And yes, no arrest does not mean no investigation.
and yes, this will be used by the media. Imagine ALL THE BLACK on BLACK CRIME and THIS gets the news. I'll bet all those blacks who shot weren't carrying legal guns, but does that get "investigated"?

DUDE! "A hoodie summit" LOVE THAT...good one.

Bunkerville...yikes.

AOW, will look at your link later today...I have to get out of here.

SUSPEND ELECTIONS? WHAT?

SAM: I once heard a black comedian say "Why do black people have names that sound like pharmaceutical products" Got a HUGE laugh. Lavoris, Clorets, etc. YOu have to admit, he WAS FUNNY! (and pretty right)

Of course, we can't base criminality on unusual names...at least none of them are HUSSEIN :-)

Lisa, Ducky has never understood the real world. My fave is when he goes to Silverfiddle's and slams Breitbart's film techniques when exposing the Left instead of realizing the film is right and was effective!

Scotty...I guess they've got to cash in.
And you're right about the Left only hearing what they WANT TO HEAR.

SF.....oh, HOW RACIST OF YOU :-)

Lisa said...

I think lot of black people are starting to realize that after a hundred years of liberal policies they're still slaves to old, fat, white liberals just like before the civil war.

Bob said...

The Hoodie Issue:

I live in Atlanta, Georgia where the population of the city is more than 50% black. I can tell you that black guys wear hoodies and other warm head gear almost year round.

I see even black women wearing heavy coats on warm days, and this has led me to believe that many black people are happier being warmer, and with something on their heads.

That being said, some of the black guys use the hoodie as a device to hide their features from security cameras. Recently at the tech college I attend, a black kid in a hoodie stepped into a faculty member's office, and stole a laptop computer, hiding it under his sweatshirt.

The security cameras caught this, and the campus cops had video of him conversing with a friend, also wearing a hoodie. They had video of the thief all the way out to his car. The cameras could not get his car tag number, and they could not identify the hoodie wearing thief, or his hoodie wearing friend.

You can say what you will about hoodies and racism, but black people have captured the hoodie as a symbol not only of acceptable fashion year round, but as a device to initimidate and commit crimes while hiding their identities.

That is just the way it is.

Impertinent said...

"and the bigots are crawling around like roaches..."

Yes they are and they're all Fat Al's NAN brigade with assistance of the NBPP who have put a bounty on GZ's head. There's a call for 5000 black men to capture GZ!

Now...you need to be Baker Acted if you don't see who the true bigots, racists and thugs are.

Maybe we need 10,000 Hispanics to stand up against the scum in bow-ties and hoodies, all legally armed and stand their ground?

Better yet...take your IPhone with you to the nearest hood, at night, strolling down an MLK boulevard with your Rolex and your best jewelry on and let us know how you make out.

Even Jesse Jerkson advised against that.

Tough guy.

Oh....and some good advice from Chris Rock: called "Common Sense.

http://tinyurl.com/24lrg6

Always On Watch said...

From ABC News:

ABC News confirms that Trayvon Martin was suspended from school for 10 days for possession of marijuana in mid-February.

source

Bloviating Zeppelin said...

No one yet knows the complete truth. But you can be DAMNED SURE that the DEM/MSM is doing its level best to ensure that YOU, the casual reader and listener, are NOT provided with the full array of information yet revealed.

And the PRESIDENT is perfectly COMPLICIT in this media SCAM.

BZ

Z said...

Lisa, I hope so.

I also hope good Black Americans will see Obama's use of this and how he doesn't use other moments to inspire.

He doesn't inspire, he provokes, taking sides too early, as he did with the Harvuhd professor situation...the BEER SUMMIT

I love Dude's comment about a HOODIE SUMMIT...

Impertinent said...

"Trayvon Martin was on a wrong track, and the people who might have saved him —his parents— were negligent. Zimmerman pulled the trigger, but his parents killed him..."

From ABC News:

ABC News confirms that Trayvon Martin was suspended from school for 10 days for possession of marijuana in mid-February.


You're right Sam...he was on the wrong path...yet typical of black "kids" from single parent homes...without supervision and without any meaningful care in them or their future.

Z said...

WOW!

I heard tapes of a neighbor who'd called 911 and loud yells for help were heard...I thought it was the kid but now that we're hearing GZ suffered a broken nose, a cut on the back of his head and scratches....

At first, GZ says the kid was running and dispatch told him "We don't need you to do that"....did the kid come BACK after he'd run a while? He beat GZ up...and it was definitely AFTER THE RUNNING INCIDENT... That's a curiosity.

Z said...

I just saw this comment at another site "We have a grown man who has a history of assaultive and erratic behavior who was explicitly told by the police to NOT follow the kid and we have a 17 year old kid who was just walking back to his father's home who was characterized by his teachers as "a good kid" and that he had never picked a fight in his life. Now people who were defending Zimmerman for shooting the boy in self defense are now criticizing Trayvon for punching Zimmerman in self defense. Ridiculous."

Can anybody link to where GZ had a history? He has a concealed carry license so how bad could his past have been? And the kid was walking back to his FATHER'S HOME? WHERE?
I'd love to know if anybody has the facts. I think this guy's wrong.

Lisa said...

He doesn't inspire, he provokes, taking sides too early, as he did with the Harvuhd professor situation...the BEER SUMMIT

So true Z, so true.

Chuck said...

Ducky, you just keep it up don't you?

if the shooter states he felt threatened.

The story so far is that the 6'3" teenager knocked an out of shape man to the ground, smashed his head in the ground, and broke his nose. Granted this could be false but it is the only story we have now. With this story, and it is the only story you have to work with also, what has to happen before a person is allowed to "feel threatened"?

If this story is near truth, this is a case in which a man was assaulted, was in legal possession of a firearm, and used it for self-defense. The whole stand your ground discussion is being used by the left as a distraction.

Z said...

Chuck, have you listened to the tapes? I couldn't understand who was screaming for help in the background as a neighbor called dispatch, but now I realize it must have been Zimmerman being attacked.

I remember hearing GZ telling his dispatcher on 911 that the guy was running away and the dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that" when realizing that GZ was following Trayvon.
SOMETHING happened between GZ's following Trayvon and Trayvon apparently beating GZ quite a bit....

I guess we all can assume the kid wouldn't be dead had GZ just let him wander as the dispatcher suggested...........or am I missing something?

Impertinent said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Impertinent said...

" this is a case in which a man was assaulted, was in legal possession of a firearm, and used it for self-defense...."

This is the liberal's real problem.

The lib doesn't like guns....so nobody should own one.

The lib detests self defense...so the lib thinks we should all run even from our own homes.

The lib thinks we should take an "ass wooping" rather than fight back. Going into a hospital in a coma is OK with the libs...cause no one got "hurt".

If you carry a gun, people call you paranoid. Nonsense! If you have a gun, what do you have to be paranoid about?

You cannot save the planet, but you may be able to save yourself and your family.


The average response time of a 911 call is 23 minutes; the response time of a .357 is 1400 feet per second.

Cops carry guns to protect themselves, not you.

Impertinent said...

" Zimmerman was told by the Police not to pursue him..."

Liar...but so long as it fits your twisted narrative...lies are OK. Cause that's all you and the other racist pimps have going for them. And that included the gangsters of Al Sharptons lynch mob...and the NBPP's lynch / vigilante mob.

But...you have nothing to say about race whores who want this man dead....without a trial let alone conviction. Welcome to Zimbabwe, idiot.

A 911 DISPATCHER ( NOT A COP ) said..."you don't have to do that". Meaning the cops were on the way....as a matter of law and fact ( but don't let that get in your way ) you DO NOT have to take their advice. Which it was.

And if GZ hadn't kept his eye on the subject..who was roaming around in peoples backyards...( where the assault against GZ took place ) the cops wouldn't have located him.

As it was GZ had to tell the cops where to go...so he had to as a matter of his duties...to do just that.

Z said...

I deleted another of Lib'man's comments but wanted you all to know his best input re this whole case was:

Christians are hypocrites :-)

Z said...

Imp, I'd listen again if I were you...as I said previously, the dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that" when GZ was clearly running after Martin; you can hear GZ's breathing quicken as he runs and the dispatcher asks 'are you following him?' then adds how he doesn't NEED TO DO THAT.

By the way, the only part that's missing now, in my opinion, is how it went from the kid running to GZ chasing him....and then how they connected again. I can't imagine GZ caught up with him....

Some say GZ got out of his car to look at an address to give the dispatcher, but that doesn't seem right.

I think he somehow reconnected with the kid after the kid had run, the kid seems clearly to have jumped on him and pushed his head down enough to hurt him and to break his nose, by all accounts...then, if he was on GZ's chest, that shot to HIS chest makes sense...GZ reached up and shot the kid

Impertinent said...

"We don't need you to do that" .."

OK Z...but that wasn't an order / command from the Police or a Police officer. It was a dispatchers opinion. And then GZ got ambushed by the kid.

Z said...

The inference is 'stay where you are'...but how ambushed?

if the kid was running away and GZ started running after him..?

did the kid turn around and go for him?

Impertinent said...

"did the kid turn around and go for him?.."

It was clear in the tape that TM was coming towards him..he told the 911 guy that...he said he had something in his pocket or his hand was in his waistband...he said TM was checking him out...then he said he was running.

Impertinent said...

I found this on a blog about the whole Sanford mess....I take it with a grain of salt as anyone can post anything.

But since we've learned that TM was kicked out of school for drug possession...my take was that he was already hanging with the wrong crowd and dealing dope.

"From a Friend of the Family"

I'm Trayvon's uncle. The young man was hanging out will drug dealing/using punks, and was bound to be taken out by the police had it not been Mr. Zimmerman.

I'm just glad he didn't kill the poor guy. George is lucky to be alive, cause the boy has kicked plenty of white peoples butts.

He grew up in the gang riddled neighborhoods of Miami Gardens, and had recently been kicked out of high school for drugs and gang violence.

Too bad the news doesn't tell the whole story. I told my crack addicted brother that his son would be dead before his 18th birthday. So sad I was right.."

Shaw Kenawe said...

Can anybody link to where GZ had a history?


GZ has a record: One felony charge for an assault on a police officer and one misdemeanor.

Impertinent said...

"Zimmerman had a previous charge in 2005 of "resisting arrest with violence and battery on an officer"while interfering with the arrest of a friend.

He subsequently entered a pretrial diversion program, which is not considered a conviction on his criminal record.

Zimmerman had previously been accused of domestic violence by an ex-fiancee (Veronica Zuazo), who had filed for a restraining order against him.

Zimmerman counter-filed for a restraining order. A judge eventually ordered them both to stay away from each other for at least one year"



Hardly a criminal record.

Z said...

Imp, he was running away from GZ during that dispatch tape...remember GZ started to run after him ...
My question is how they got joined up again once TM had run and the dispatcher told GZ they didn't need him to go after him..

Z said...

Imp, that's from a friend of his family? WOW.

It's so very sad this kid was raised in such a tough place.
You know, I've been seeing pictures of him on TV again and the one with the red Tshirt looks like he's about 12....I think he was in his late teens now, right? and had a front tooth that was the 'in vogue' gold?


Shaw...I guess GZ's history shouldn't have any more bearing on this case than TM's history has on it, right?
And I'm wondering how he ever got a concealed weapon permit if he had that record.
I've had other venues like mainstream media, say GZ had no record at all. I suppose that's the same George Zimmerman?

Elmers Brother said...

Was he convicted? How was it adjudicated?

Elmers Brother said...

Nevermind

Elmers Brother said...

Z did you see email I sent you, one news report said GZ turned away after talking to dispatcher when TM caught up with him and punched GZ in the nose. All this was within a minute of talking to dispatcher. One wonders if GZ was so interested in shooting TM why he waited to get the living s**t beat out of him first?

Rita said...

There were literally thousands of people that turned out for the march for TM here in Indy.

And how many of them actually know the facts?

That's the problems, right?

The real problem is right here reading everyone's comments.

So, what do we "know"?

1) TM is dead.
2) GZ had a broken nose and a blow to the back of his head
3) The 911 tape clearly has someone screaming, "Help".
4) GZ's 911 call indicates the dispatcher told him he didn't need to follow TM.
5) GZ responds to the dispatcher with, "OK".
6) There is nothing in GZ's 911 call that indicates he continued the chase.
7) The media has reported GZ's race is white.
8) GZ's uncle indicates he is hispanic.
9) An eyewitness reported seeing TM on top of GZ before he was shot.

What we don't know.

1) How did GZ get injured?
2) Who was actually screaming for help?
3) If TM's the one screaming, then when and how did GZ get his injuries?
4) What were TM's injuries unrelated to the gun shot?
5) Were there inconsistencies between what GZ reported to the police and the 911 calls?

Since we can all play the game Clue here, none of us has all the information the police have at this point.

Instead, we have Sharpton and others who make a living by keeping the races divided and IMO, wanting to incite riots because it would suit their agenda to do so.

And we do know this.

GZ is now in hiding because he fears for his life.

Vigilante justice is alive and well today.

Kid said...

This is political now. From a politician's point of view.

Z said...

Rita, excellent lists there....


Elbro...so TM must have come BACK, because GZ had said he was running away.....maybe he did pounce on him in anger that GZ seemed to be watching him? But, yes...he must have been on top, as Rita's list says the witnesses saw, and that's how GZ got his head bashed in in the back and broken nose...and that's how TM was shot in the chest, just about GZ's body as he beat him up.

And ELBRO...you're SO right..why let TM beat the snot out of him if he wanted to shoot?


I think HISPANICS are racially WHITE and ethnically HISPANIC

Rita said...

Z: I believe you're correct on the legal term for hispanics. That was how we had to report mortgage loans to HMDA, but on a non-legal term, the media doesn't normally label hispanics as white.

The MSM loves to portray anyone that thinks illegal immigrants are here illegally as "racists". How many illegally immigrants are black not hispanic?

They know full well that when they report GZ as white, they are not reporting him as hispanic.

Elmers Brother said...

Maybe Obama would like to comment on this

Z said...

Elbro, that'll be the day!

EVERYBODY :

Tonight, I heard Bernard Goldberg quote from the NY Times...did you hear it?
The NY Times apparently called George Zimmerman a WHITE HISPANIC! Imagine?

Here's the rub, Goldberg goes on to rightly suggest that had Zimmerman won the Nobel Peace Prize, the NY Times would have said "Hispanic, George Zimmmerman"

they're have skipped the "WHITE".

Is that amazing? WHITE HISPANIC!
leave it to the Times, they just had to get the WHITE component in as if this was a racist situation in Florida!

Elmers Brother said...

That is amazing Z.

net observer said...

The Trayvon story is a perfect storm of sorts -- if you have a fetish for black-white racial tensions in America.

It looks like a relatively normal black teenage male was shot and killed by a mostly-white, seemingly over-zealous "neighborhood-watch leader". There were no cameras recording at the time. Thus, we may never know all the facts.

This situation is, as the right-leaning news analyst Bernie Goldberg recently said (and I paraphrase), "a liberal's wet dream, esp. for the Sharpton-Jackson set". But I hasten to add that it's also a bit of a conservative nightmare. Yes, liberals/progressives love to uncover evidence of America's real and imagined mistreatment of African-Americans. But for conservatives, particularly white conservatives, it's a little bit of the opposite. This is obviously just my observation.

If I may continue to generalize in an even bigger way, I think it's fair to say that many white conservatives have a kind of romantic view of America that others -- esp. most African-Americans -- do not have. And if I had to guess, that discrepancy is not likely to change for another 50-100 years.

I don't think this is necessarily a good thing or a bad thing. It's just the way it is for now. And it often sets the stage for an inevitable "digging in of the heels" when situations like Trayvon surface.

Waves of advocacy journalism don't help. While MSNBC et al have been gushing with pro-Trayvon/anti-Zimmerman coverage of the issue, FoxNews has been, to quote David Frum, "fascinating" in its tight-lipped, late-start coverage. One might argue that Fox was being more sober and more judicious in their reporting. But I've seen way too much FoxNews to believe that.

Unless they're covering a natural disaster that can't be blamed on "liberals" or "conservatives", all these networks -- MSNBC and FoxNews, especially -- often choose their agendas over straight reporting, particularly in a racially incendiary case like Trayvon-Zimmerman.

For them, the deal is simple: MSNBC has placed a huge bet on their preferred version of the narrative. They are hoping for an end result that casts Zimmerman as an unstable, gun-toting, racist white man who pursued, shot and killed an innocent black teen, and didn't get arrested for it.

Similarly, FoxNews has placed its bet, essentially, in a direction 90 degrees northward or southward of MSNBC's. That is, Fox is hoping for a significantly more nuanced outcome; one that greatly softens the image of both Zimmerman and the Sanford FL law enforcement team.

net observer said...

So far, it appears as if MSNBC's bet is more likely to pay off, but that could obviously change with one single story-altering revelation. We'll just have to wait and see.

From my perspective, it is extremely hard to believe that a *black* Zimmerman (who had previously been convicted of a violent crime) would not have been arrested after killing a *white* Trayvon (with a relatively normal, albeit imperfect, 17-year-old's background).

Also, it might be a bit of a red herring to call out the all-too-familiar stats of black-on-black and/or black-on-white violent crime. Of course, it's far more common, and in that sense, it's far more tragic. Anybody can get that.

Unfortunately, that's not really the issue. If you notice, the typical complaint we hear from the so-called "black community" when a Trayvon-esque moment comes to the fore is generally not about the crime per se -- it's about law enforcement's treatment of the criminal. And if it turns out that there's a real double standard, it is arguably a more serious reality. Because we're all supposed to be living under the same laws equally.

We can't necessarily control the violence one individual perpetrates on another. But as a society, we MUST insist on equal proper treatment in the aftermath. If not, America's not America.

At any rate, with respect to the Trayvon situation, I presume the truth is somewhere in the middle. And we can thank the world of pathetic advocacy journalism for its role in adding to the confusion.

Last point: BEFORE he was president, Obama DID put forth Cosby-esque messages to the so-called black community. That's a matter of record.

The problem is this: He can't do that sort of thing now. the politics precludes it. Many of his political enemies would call him "racist" (or whatever) for doing so.

Frankly, I'll bet anything Obama didn't want to be brought into to this Trayvon affair during an election year. But unfortunately for him, the story is quite unavoidable at this point. He didn't really have a choice. although he could have been better in choosing his words (not sure who he was trying to satiate).

But above all, it wouldn't make any difference anyway. The solutions to the problems you're referring to are individual, family and community based. A president haranguing from on-high would have about the same impact as Nancy Reagan's 1980's "Just Say No!" campaign.

Rita said...

Can't say I disagree with you Net. As I've said before somewhere out in this virtual blogging world, if Casey Anthony had been a black man there is no doubt in my mind he would be facing the death penalty.

And my point is that she SHOULD be sitting on death row right now.

And I would agree with you that most likely if Zimmerman had been black and Trayvon a white kid, he would likely have been taken to the police station first and the questions asked after that.

So my question is....why is that?

We've established previously you were raised in a nearly all black community and I was raised in a nearly all white community.

Obviously there is no way for either of us to imagine the world on the other's side and get it right.

In the Casey Anthony case, I would say that is a classic example of racial inequality that we have not been able to rid ourselves from.

As to the case of Zimmerman black and the kid white, then do you believe the cops would have detained him simply because he is black and they are racially profiling?

If that's the case, then why do you think cops do racially profile?

net observer said...

Hey Rita. Nice to hear from you.

This is such a complicated topic. I find myself struggling with it more and more, and I'm not even sure why. As I have said before, I am convinced that America is far better off racially today than ever before. But then a situation like Trayvon surfaces and reminds us where we all stand.

How do we deal with it? Very carefully; but with brutal honesty.

In truth, we cannot expect people, regardless of their color, to simply ignore all the long-standing stats about young black male street crime. As Walter Williams has said, and as terrible as it may sound, racial profiling is, in many instances, based in logic.

At the same time, this is America. (That's the "problem" =)) Our country is extremely committed to the basic principles of individual liberty and protection under the law for all its citizens. In theory, it shouldn't matter if "John Doe" is the ONLY member of his family who ISN'T a violent criminal. He shouldn't be treated any differently from the NEXT innocent person.

That is obviously not an easy road row to hoe. The world HAS to admire America for being this way, and often does.

But to answer your questions directly:

"do you believe the cops would have detained him simply because he is black and they are racially profiling?"

Basically, yes. But not necessarily in a "conscious" way, if you know what I mean.

"why do you think cops do racially profile?"

Because of the decades-long, lopsidedness of young black male street crime. It sucks, but that's the core of it in my opinion.

It is not easy for many of us -- law enforcement, civilian, black, white, whatever -- to distinguish a certain kind of good black kid from a certain kind of thuggish black kid -- especially if we don't spend a lot of time around black kids.

In truth, certain black kids, good and bad, wear similar clothes, listen to the same music, and speak in a similar vernacular. Perhaps Geraldo Rivera went too far with his recent comments. But it's not like he didn't have a point.

I once heard a radio host say, "If you look old, no matter how young you are, people are gonna treat you like you're old -- until they find out your real age. And if you look young, no matter how OLD you are, people are gonna treat you like you're YOUNG -- until they find out your real age."

And, if you look like "a thug", people just might treat you as such -- until they find out otherwise. Hopefully, before it's too late, as in Trayvon's case.

Rita said...

Hey Net. Then basically you and I are in complete agreement.

Of course we won't solve the problem here. I think people like Bill Cosby go a long way toward opening up the dialog because I would guess that what he's saying has been exactly what most white Americans think somewhere in the back of our minds and we aren't allowed to say it because if we do, then we're afraid of being called a racist.

I have a couple of cops in my family. And I would also tell you that profiling is more likely occurring when they come across a "type" that experience has proven to them is suspicious.

I refer to "type" because that would also include a middle age white male driving slowly through an area know for prostitution. Or a young kid, white or black driving through a known drug area.

To me, that is profiling. If the hijackers on 911 had been middle-aged blonde females from the Midwest, I would expect the TSA to stop me every time.

Last week I met a brilliant consultant from India who lives in MN. As he was leaving we were talking about airport security. He showed me his Clear Pass, or whatever it's called where he can bypass a lot of overly zealous security searches. He casually mentioned since he travelled so much, he wanted the pass because he was nearly always stopped by TSA for extra screening because of his look.

He didn't say it as if he didn't expect to get the extra security. He said it as if it was the new normal, which of course it is.

net observer said...

We are definitely in agreement. As you say, there's all kinds of profiling.

Yesterday I heard someone say that when we see a middle-class white kid driving around the ghetto, we automatically assume he's looking for drugs.

Profiling? =)

But I have to say the Zimmerman defense is looking weaker and weaker to me. It just looks like one of those cases that "proves" what so many on the left believe.

Rita said...

Then I must have missed something Net.

I've not been as on top of the news as the past since I found a new client three weeks ago.

What have you heard that makes you believe Zimmerman is looking more guilty? Last I heard was that the eyewitnesses and 911 accounts were all in agreement with his statement.

Z said...

Hi, Net..glad you weighed in on this.

You said "relatively normal black teenage male" I hope not...drug history, gold tooth rapper punk (seen the real pictures of him, the latest ones?). Ya, maybe "relatively"...I'd like to hope not.

You said "Also, it might be a bit of a red herring to call out the all-too-familiar stats of black-on-black and/or black-on-white violent crime. Of course, it's far more common, and in that sense, it's far more tragic. Anybody can get that."

It isn't a red herring when I consider (as I've written above) that we don't hear as much hoopla as we're hearing now over this as we hear all the many times black kids are gunned down by other black kids. I think that's horrid and we need to DO something...so, what does the black community do? get completely wound up over this case. Before the facts were known.

YOu said "If I may continue to generalize in an even bigger way, I think it's fair to say that many white conservatives have a kind of romantic view of America that others -- esp. most African-Americans --don't have"

I TOTALLY agree with you here and I can mostly agree based on our relationship! I keep thinking America's over racism and you don't think so, not quite so much, anyway. I keeping getting so mad when you bring up racism or racialist practices because I just DO NOT SEE IT. BUt, as Rita said, I have never walked in your black shoes, so how can I KNOW??
I told you once that I got really insulted for being Armenian and I told my husband I was SO GLAD because NOW I knew what it was like to be criticized for what I was and not for who I am (the person didn't know I was Armenian and went on a diatribe about them in France once at a dinner party)

Net...you said "Many of his political enemies would call him "racist" (or whatever) for doing so."
WHO? Are you kidding? WHat enemies does Obama have on the LEFT? You KNOW Conservatives wouldn't call him racist for giving pep talks to black kids...informing them of his hopes for them, encouraging them,e tc..we want that for Black America...we want kids to SUCCEED!!. so what enemies do you mean?

YOu mention Just Say No....I disagree... Imagine what impact a young black president so many black kids supposedly admire could do in just asking them to study harder, be careful, be moral.
WHat political enemies? You think the left's going to turn on him for THAT?


RITA...I disagree with you about Casey Anthony and racial inequality...as a matter of fact, I doubt we'd have heard of it had the mom been black.

Net...you're not listening...they have witnesses who totally back GZ's story...You said "But I have to say the Zimmerman defense is looking weaker and weaker to me. It just looks like one of those cases that "proves" what so many on the left believe."

Got information we aren't hearing?
Weaker? He was getting out of his truck when the kid comes up to his left and breaks his now ...TM asked "You got a problem?" GM said "No"...TM says "YOU do NOW" and breaks his face, he falls, the kid gets on top, beats the back of his head into the cement, etc....GM couldn't know TM didn't have a knife.

I think the shooting could have been avoided.....except when I consider that GM couldn't know a kid this vicious wouldn't kill him. Let's not forget that they'd had no contact up to that point at the car, the kid had only seen GZ casing him out...that's all.

What gets ME is when the media mentions TM had a drug history, etc..that has NOTHING to do with his getting killed. No kid should die for his past. ...and I hate how his mother's trademarking his name...except if she thought others would get rich on her son, which I believe would be wrong.
The Obama campaign site has suddenly been selling hoodies...wow

Z said...

I worked today and am too tired to edit what I just wrote...or even read it over.
Sorry, if it's as scattered as I think it is?

I'm hoping to get some response from it!?
Thanks.

net observer said...

Hey Rita,

I should not have phrased it that way. I probably don't have any "new" facts. Frankly, you might know more than I do.

It's more about how this story continues to develop. To be honest, from the beginning, I have been anticipating new information that makes either Zimmerman and the Sanford justice system look better. Instead, it just feels more and more fishy to me.

I've been waiting to hear someone say something like, "Oh, the reason Zimmerman got out of his vehicle with his semi-auto weapon was because Trayvon appeared to be headed toward Zimmerman's grandmother's house, and he was afraid for HER."

Many bets have been placed on this so-called "Stand your Ground" law. But then people like Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio have been super-quick to denounce any attempts to use that law as an excuse for this situation. And a guy like Rubio isn't known to cower to leftist pressure.

I've also been anticipating info that substantially damages the image of Trayvon. In other words, something MORE than "school suspensions" and marijuana use. Like gang connections or a history of fighting. Again, nothing particularly substantial thus far.

Instead, it's Zimmerman who's on record for assaulting a police officer.

Above all, this "Joe Oliver" phenomenon is BEYOND STRANGE. This guy doesn't seem to know Zimmerman in any profound way. But for some reason, he's all over the media, everyday, creating potentially deadly enemies -- for HIMSELF. And in the name of what? A gay crush?

And the fact that he just HAPPENS to be black seems so extremely transparent and convenient for the situation. It's like, where the heck are Zimmerman's REAL family and friends? I'm sure many of them are understandably fearful of the current atmosphere. But STILL, if I were an INNOCENT Zimmerman, I know my people would be out there fightin' for me. Male AND female.

The Goldman family were never afraid of OJ Simpson's rabid fans. I'm sure they got death threats, too.

I also noticed that Fox/The Five finally let Beckel loose on this issue today =) That tells me something, too.

If I had to guess, things must not be looking too good for those who are hoping for a more Zimmerman-favoring outcome.

Yes, I've heard bits and pieces of those witnesses you speak of. And I want to hear more for sure. But right now, I just don't find them very compelling when juxtaposed to everything else I've seen.

Time will tell.

net observer said...

I just saw you pop in, Z =) I was just about to get a bite to eat. I'll probably chime in late night =)

Z said...

thanks, sweetie pie! Bon appetit, net :-)

Rita said...

Z: I'll grant you that the media would not likely have picked up on the Casey Anthony trial if she hadn't been a young white woman, but I don't think the media affected the results of the trial. I do believe that had the same exact set of circumstances been pointing to a black man, he would be facing death row now.

We all know the judges like to make the defendent look as innocent as possible and I was completely disgusted that they did not convict her of murder.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, would anyone make the claim that O.J. was tried by a jury of his "peers"? His peers were in Brightwood, not the jury he ended up with. I was sickened by the O.J. outcome, I was sickened by the Anthony outcome and I was sickened by the first trial of the police officers who beat Rodney King.

Rita said...

Net: I know the mantra we're hearing is that a black kid in a hoodie was only suspect because he was a black kid in a hoodie.

I have to disagree with this one.

My two youngest nephews also come through my door wearing the hoodie thing. I give them a hug and a kiss and pull the hoodie from their heads and tell them I don't want them looking like a thug.

That's more of a generational thing and much less about race.

I've seen no evidence that GZ was carrying a gun illegally. I've heard a lot of people claim he had no business carrying it.

But, a neighborhood watch program exists for a reason. I don't know how dark it was at the time of the incident. But if I have someone crossing through my back yard, a young kid in a hoodie, black or white. I'd want my neighbors to be on notice.

What do people think neighborhood watch volunteers are there to do? They are there to look over the neighborhood in order to prevent crime. If I'm on watch and I see a kid in a hoodie crossing people's yards, I'm going to follow him. That kid could be my nephew, but he would still be suspect until I would know why he was there.

And if you think I would not be carrying a weapon whether the HOA rules wanted me to or not is being naive.

If GZ simply wanted to kill a black kid, why did HE call 911? He replied "OK" when the dispatcher said he didn't have to follow him.

If I was on watch and the dispatcher said that, I wouldn't stop following him, I would want to know which direction he was going so the police could find out who exactly was the kid in a hoodie.

I still have not heard what everyone else says is heard on the 911 tape. I hear him say OK and I'd not heard where there is any evidence of him continuing, although I would.

So logically, GZ calls 911. He knows the cops are on the way. IF he continues to follow TM, how do we get to where GZ has injuries and we hear screaming for help on the eyewitness 911 tape. So, if TM is screaming for help, my question is why? The eyewitness says TM was on top of GZ. If he has the upper hand at that point, why is he screaming? Logic tells me that is was more likely GZ screaming while he was getting beaten. The screams are clearly of someone afraid at that point. The witness said he believed it was GZ screaming.

If TM was actually beating GZ, then he had every right to use his weapon. I know I would.

Otherwise, we have to go with the theory that GZ had the upperhand during the whole altercation to say that it was TM screaming and that GZ shot a kid screaming help because he's some wanna be cop.

I just cannot buy into that theory. It's not logical to me.

A hoodie kid in my neighborhood would attract a serious degree of suspicious. ANY hoodie kid.

This nonsense that someone who hides their face should not attract suspicion is not realistic.

Ask my nephews. They like their hoodies and I don't because I see them through someone else's eyes and they look like they would cause trouble.

If I was walking in downtown Indianapolis and I was approached by a nicely dressed young black male or a white kid in a hoodie, which do you think will cause me to hold my purse a little closer to my body?

net observer said...

Rita,

It sounds like you've followed a lot of details in this case, more so than I have. So I have to concede some of your points until I learn more.

For the record, it's not like I have any major issue with what you're saying, except when you said that you would follow around a suspicious-looking character (i.e., a hoodie-donned kid) while packing heat.

If you'll pardon me for saying this, dear lady. The conservative part of me that stresses law and order causes me to question your instincts in that regard =)

I thought that was why we hired police officers.

Frankly, I would have some real concerns about you bumping into another "Rita" and finding yourself in an unnecessary yet deadly shoot-out.

Furthermore, I honestly don't believe you would follow around a teen with a hoodie so soon after a dispatcher told you to cool your jets. Especially if you already had a felony on your record -- like our friend Mr. Zimmerman.

I also don't believe that a 9-millimeter would be your weapon of choice.

It's like this, Rita. Whatever the truth is, believe me, I'm cool with it. I don't doubt the possibility of an explanation that absolves Zimmerman 110%. I just don't envision one forthcoming.

Another point: Ask any lawyer. Eye-witnesses, as valuable as they are, aren't like DNA. If you ask me, a person's overall record tells me more about him/her than what someone else claims they saw he/she do.

Which is probably why Zimmerman concerns me.

My primary question is my original question: Reverse the racial roles in the Trayvon-Zimmerman case. Does Zimmerman, a convicted felon, still go free that same night after having shot and killed an unarmed teenager with a semi-automatic weapon?

Heck, maybe he does. But I have my doubts.

net observer said...

Apparently I've missed some of the details regarding these witnesses who corroborate Zimmerman's story. I've heard many bits and pieces of stuff from a lot of corners.

Let me be clear. I'm not comfortable drawing ANY final conclusions right now. In fact, when I FIRST heard this story, I kinda found myself waiting for an explanation to "absolve" "the system". But as the days went by, it wasn't looking so simple.

I saw something on CNN earlier this evening that made the Sanford police look quite fair and principled. (Still not sure if they ARE) Again, time will tell.

But still, even with all that, "Who started this mess?" The unarmed teen walking home or the 9-milli-packin' cowboy who ignored a dispatcher's advice?

I can't get around that first step.

btw, Z, I think conservatives like YOU would applaud Obama for encouraging black kids. But I promise you, there's a whole other set of conservatives who would react just like I am suggesting they would.

Barack Obama is not a "racist". It's a very silly charge. But you can find that charge all over the Web, and typically, the accusers are on the right.

Lastly, and unfortunately, most 17-year-olds today, I think, might be labelled "unusual" if they had never experimented with marijuana. So when I say Trayvon was "relatively normal", I mean he was probably among "the 50%" -- esp. among black youths.

I don't think that's a good thing, mind you. But I suspect it's true.

Elmers Brother said...

The argument that if the race of the participants were reversed that Zimmerman would be in jail is a logical fallacy,.

Z said...

I must leave most of today but thank you all for the comments and WILL BE BACK.
I LOVE these exchanges...we're truly blessed by them.
xxx

Impertinent said...

"Especially if you already had a felony on your record -- like our friend Mr. Zimmerman."

Not only is this patently false Net...you said it twice. He had no felony record...if he did..HE WOULD NOT HAVE HAD A CCW, carry permit.

"Zimmerman is licensed to carry a firearm.

Sanford police chief Bill Lee said that while neighborhood watch volunteers are not encouraged to carry a gun, they have a Constitutional right to do so, stating, "Mr. Zimmerman was not acting outside the legal boundaries of Florida Statute by carrying his weapon when this incident occurred."

net observer said...

Imp,

I see that you're absolutely correct about that. I stand corrected and I regret that I didn't take the time to verify what I heard.

Apparently, Zimmerman was charged with resisting arrest with violence and battery of a law enforcement officer and the charges were reduced later. Still a serious problem in my view but nothing like what I had stated before.

I still think it's a real problem for someone like that to be entrusted with such potent responsibility, self-appointed or not. Most people I know -- as far as I know -- don't have these kinds of issues.

Elmer,

Possibly.

A fallacy, as I understand it, is an argument based on a misconception or a false presumption. I think you're saying, with much validity, that it's kind of sophomoric to merely swap out the skin colors of the actors involved here and use that imaginary scenario as evidence of something sinister at play.

I agree, but it's not quite that cut-and-dried.

To be honest, I can relate to that frustration you felt when you read what I wrote. In fact, I am kind of known around here as someone who criticizes conservatives for making what I might call "fallacious" arguments.

Examples: I think it's a bit "fallacious" to ask questions like, "What if a 'white conservative' spoke about black people like that 'black liberal' over there speaks about white people?" or "What if a Christian organization had openly bigoted policies like that Muslim organization over there?"

Indeed, those arguments irk the heck out of me because of their lack of depth. At the same time, I still recognize the heart and spirit of those arguments/questions.

If asked honestly, these are VERY valid questions worthy of valid answers. And I maintain that the same goes for me.

What exactly IS the answer to my question: "Reverse the racial roles in the Trayvon case. Is Zimmerman still free?"

If the answer isn't "Yes! Absolutely!" then, why not?

Elmers Brother said...

Its a non sequitor and hasty generalization. Its baseless speculation with facts not in evidence.

Elmers Brother said...

In fact it would be closer to the truth based on statistics to say that his killer is more likely to be black than Hispanic and younger rather than middle age.

Elmers Brother said...

I'm not frustrated just simply observing

Elmers Brother said...

Many of my conservative friends use the same fallacy when they start a sentence like this :

"If that had been George Bush..."

Impertinent said...

"Zimmerman was charged with resisting arrest with violence and battery of a law enforcement officer and the charges were reduced later...."

Net...thanks for the being the stand up guy you are.

However...as far as that "charge" go's...it does appear to be more serious on paper than the actual circumstances.

Violence, battery and resisting arrest can be as simple as a traffic stop here in Florida. What occurred with him was he tried to help a friend who was getting busted. He put himself in the middle.

Now if he truly committed a violent act against a cop...he'd be in jail and would be a felon. You don't plea that down here. He was instructed to do some lame community service or something. I knew exactly a few days ago...but wiki washed it all out.

Again Net thanks for the correction.

Character comparisons on each side really don't help much.

Z said...

Net, when a president sides so hard with BLack America, he's a racist;

The Beer Summit was about his jumping to conclusions that it had to be the white cop who'd erred.

This case here with him saying the kid could have been his son because he looks like him...which he doesn't...how about the thousands of other sweet black kids who are blown away by their gang buddies? Don't they look like him, too? None of them?

The DOJ ignoring the voting intimidation of the New Black Panthers in '08 and letting them go

Mrs. Obama only proud of America after it elected her husband president (why, because he's half black)

I'm too pooped and ticked to write more.

By the way, this morning I sang with 5 black gospel singers and an accompanist the likes of whom I've ever had the pleasure to sing with...mainly because I don't usually sing gospel. The two guys want to sing with me again and my black girlfriend who was sitting behind me, the wife of an AMAZING black singer who sings all over the world, grabbed my shoulder and said "HOney! You never sang like that before...I think you've got GOSPEL in you!"

It might have been close to the singing highlight of my life!

Impertinent said...

"This case here with him saying the kid could have been his son because he looks like him...which he doesn't..."

Of course he doesn't look like TM...but he's relied on sweet little pics of TM when he was 12 years old. And the press is still showing that despite the most recent pics which show him with rows of gold caps...pants a foot below his belt line displaying his checkered boxers...braids and tats.

Then of course the gang hand signals, while posing before the camera.

Then theres those sweet little musings on his tweeter feed too.

TM was on his way to some ugliness in his future.

But then.....lets excuse and forget his drug use cause it's "normal" for kids today. Or the burglar tools in his backpack.

But we'll call GZ a murderer, a felon, unhinged, unstable, a wannabe cop, a racist...place a bounty on his head...call for his abduction or murder...thus committing felonies on behalf of the kid?

The real thugs and racists prevail with a little help from Spike Lee publish GZ's home address...so his home would hopefully be invaded by a black posse / militia, the NBPP?

....while being such a disgusting dumb ass he got the address wrong and had his goons target an elderly...white couple.

Where the hell are we? In the 1800's Dodge City...the OK corral?

Rita said...

What I hear you say Net, is that whites actually believe we further removed from racism than what the black community thinks.

Unfortunately when we see Jackson, Sharpton, Spike Lee and the CBC saying the most inflamatory things possible I have to tell you honestly, it makes me feel much less connected than what I believe we are. It's impossible not to have a very negative reaction when we have Hank Johnson saying Trayvon was executed amid the other CBC jumping on the bandwagon.

IMO, their conviction of GZ and their selective outrage over white on black crime leaves the average white American with a feeling that racism has shifted and there is nothing we can do.

I can see where because of our differences in culture would lead one to first suspect the story, like you've stated.

What I can't see is how you leap from a natural suspicion based upon your experience to the deliberately incendiary comments by the "leaders" of the black community. Their comments make me very angry. And sadly it leaves me wondering if my black friends aren't harboring such feelings about me.

Rita said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
net observer said...

"Net, when a president sides so hard with BLack America, he's a racist"

Z, my apologies for saying this, but only in the world of modern-day so-called conservatism (i.e., Limbaugh, Palin, Levin, Hannity et al) would a statement like that carry an ounce of credibility.

I'm almost too pooped, ticked and befuddled to opine any further on this topic. What you said sounds so far-out to me I'm almost afraid to continue writing.

How 'bout this? Since we're both "ticked", let's try another angle.

Bottom line, I think we HAVE to define these incendiary terms that we seem to use so freely -- like "racist".

But let's do it this way. Let's go beyond the denotative definitions, and go with our gut.

Z, name ONE white racist (or racially bigoted) conservative or rightist. American. Modern-day. Just one.

I see my above request as a test of intellectual honesty (and possibly intellectual sanity). Because if you honestly can't name one white racist conservative, but you think that Barack Obama is absolutely a black racist liberal, then from my point of view, this discussion is instantly moot.

Because I wouldn't even TRY to understand your thinking at that point. It would be a pointless exercise.

On the other hand, if you DO name a white racist conservative, I would LOVE to know why you think THAT person fits the bill.

Impertinent said...

Net


Can you name a President before Obama who had formed a political PAC called...

"European Wasps & Whites" for me?

Nope.

How is it Obama forms a PAC called African Americans for Obama...and not be blatantly racist? He demonstrates no desire to be the President of all the people...to me.

Rita said...

Hey Net. I won't try to speak for Z as I know she can easily speak for herself. So I'm gonna chime in here anyway.

I've heard Michael Savage (although I wouldn't consider him mainstream anything) say things I would definitely classify as racist.

I have an underlying suspicion that Michelle Bachmann is. I can't point to any one thing she's said, only because I have a tendency to tune her out.

If I'm honest, I would tell you that Rush is likely a racist.

That's just my opinion. I don't like the way he expresses the conservative viewpoint and I cannot cite examples of what makes him a racist, but I'm sure I could google it and probably find a number of examples that would support my conclusion.

I would not deny that white conservative racists do exist and they help to support the rallying cry that all conservatives are racists. I've worked with supposed devout Christians who have forwarded me some photoshopped image of Obama in a monkey suit or tribal image. They assume I would find it funny because I'm a conservative Christian.

I don't. I make sure they never forward anything to me that even hints of such racist stupidity again.

When I was growing up, it was well known that some grand dragons of the KKK lived not far away from us. I've heard there are underlying KKK factions that live in the suburbs I live in.

Since I was raised Catholic, I have just a bit of understanding of how evil they are. My mom would tell us about how they burned crosses in their yards in the 30's. They hated me as much as they hated you.

I don't like thinking that some conservatives are racists, but I know they exist in too large of numbers.

Impertinent said...

"orwarded me some photoshopped image of Obama in a monkey suit or tribal image.."


How did you handle the ones of Bush that were shopped Rita? The monkey face....chimp caricatures, nazi dress, hitler mustaches and the like? It's done by both sides to suit their moods and agendas. And it's always been done in cartoon fashion.

I like Savage too. A Jewish guy with the stones enough to express his outrage...and to hell with PC.

Rita said...

I've seen the pictures of the Nazi Bush, Imp. But they were not forwarded to me by people who assumedly thought like I did.

Personally any Hitler reference applied to Obama or Bush offends me. The evilness of Hitler applied to those we disagree with is trivializing the horror of the holocaust. Much in the same manner that I find comparing the health care debate to be the same as the civil rights movement.

I don't like Savage. I have no issues with someone making a statement of fact regardless of whether it would pass the pc muster, but I hear Savage saying a lot of things that are inflamatory.

I have no issue with people who debate Obama on the issues, I disagree with his stance on nearly every issue. I can be suspicious of whether I think he treats the races equally, but to send me pictures that are clearly racist are out of line.

Savage can have his right to free speech just the same as Bill Maher can, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

Z said...

Net, thanks.

I believe Michelle Obama's comment about finally being proud to be American because we elected a Black president isn't racist but very, very unwise. Borderline questionable.

What did you think of that?

As far as conservative racists...

I have to ask something;
Do you think anybody who criticizes anybody in the black community is a racist?
Imp, for example, gets WILD EYED at the punk black kids he hears about so much in Florida...and sometimes he says some pretty condemnatory stuff about them. Is he racist? Hell no.
But, some would say 'yes'.

I don't listen to Savage, so I don't know if he is or not, as Rita suggests here.

By the way, her comment about Sharpton and Jackson is SO WISE. I believe I have the same gut feeling she must have when I see them, like "We're farther from real unity than EVER".. They are the least unifying forces in this country..makes whites feel like ALL whites are against Blacks...UTTERLY RIDICULOUS.

Conservative racists:

Rush...? No way. I don't listen to him but hear clips here and there... would I say he must not have good black friends? Absolutely not..of course he probably does. Does he perhaps come down on black crime? Ya. Is that racist? No. He's not for white crime, either :-)

I don't know Supremacist types of people... never hear a thing about them and obviously don't know names, so if that's the type you're suggesting, you've got me on that, Net. I have no idea.

Am trying to think of conservatives in the public eye so I can answer your question:

Do I think Bill O'Reilly or Hannity or Lou Dobbs are racists? Absolutely not.
Wm. Buckley? No.
Any senators or congressmen? I don't think so.

I suppose anybody who belongs to the Klan is a racist! But, I don't know any personally, thank GOD. They'd be labeled "rightwing" for some reason I can't quite grasp.

List of black racists?:
Sharpton
Jackson
a couple of black congresswomen whose names I can't remember..Waters? (mostly from California)
Cornel West (tho I like some things about him)
Julian Bond (I used to like him, too)
From what I have heard from black friends, I'd have to say "Everybody who frequents a black barber shop or beauty parlor!" (kidding..sort of)
and on and on.


Net, name some conservatives you think are truly racist.

Think there are any blacks in the public eye who're racist?

Elmers Brother said...

If you listen to Rush you'd know he was anything but racist. Snerdly, his producer is African American, his guest hosts etc...

But hey the definition of racist has been so waters down and distorted that its lost any ye meaning

Elmers Brother said...

Lost any real meaning

Z said...

Elbro, I have heard of Snerdly and didn't know he was Black...fabulous!

Elmers Brother said...

Snerdley

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